electrcian advice required

Submitted: Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:19
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hello. i have a demountable hut in the bush. it has no power connected but is fully wired inside for 240v ( with circuit breakers). does anyone know if i can wire 12v ( battery and wind turbine ) into this 240v system ( basically i am worried that the higher amp rate will 'upset' the circuit breakers). being 12v i dont need the circuit breakers anyway, but still dont want to dissable them in case i get a generator connected or the power on from the grid . thanks
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Reply By: trackker - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:51

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:51
Hi qubert

I reckon you could but you would have to do a lot of rewiring in the board, batten and bulb changing etc. As you say you have batteries and wind turbine, would it be possible to just install an inverter between your batteries and the demountable switchboard and away you go for the cost of just an inverter that would cover your current draw. You then would not have to change anything. Cheers, Dave
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Follow Up By: qubert - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 13:01

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 13:01
yeah good idea , thanks
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Reply By: Ozboc - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 11:48

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 11:48
Ok i have been thinking about this for about 10 Min ...

What are you going to run ? just basic lighting ? maybe a Wacco fridge or engel ?

or you wanting to run tv - dvd ect


If your just running basic lighting it should not be to difficult --- turn off all externals like hot water - stove -

now direct feed ( or back feed ) the 12 v into a power point .... ie make a plug up from your power source with male fitting to plug into your wall -- this will backfeed all the wiring in the house without any fuses - so you can maybe incorporate an inline fuse ...

then just change all your lights to 12 v ....


then for future -- you just make most of the house 12 v Lights and so forth -- so you will separate wiring in the house to 12 v - 240 v ( 240 will be for stove - washing machine and so forth ) on that 240 v system you will put a Transformer / 12v to feed into the 12 volt system for when batteries are dead and just need a boost via a gen

this way you can run battery most of the time -- but when you need to run high power drain items like washing machine and range -- you can put on generator without having to change things

Boc

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Follow Up By: qubert - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 13:02

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 13:02
its only for 12 lights, tv and fridge. stove and hot water is gas.
i see where youre coming from. thanks , good ideas
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Reply By: anglepole - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 12:53

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 12:53
Yes I agree with trackker.

Add a large deep cycle battery/s to the wind turbine as you have suggested, and you will not have to modify your hut wiring.

You could add some solar cell as well a bit later on.

Cheers Chris
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Follow Up By: qubert - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 13:05

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 13:05
solar panels dont appeal to me. wind turbine has more wattage per dollar feed back. and they work at night too. and my hut is under a fair bit of shade too.
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Follow Up By: Faulic_McVitte - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 13:25

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 13:25
you may also be surprised how little wind some areas get. Solar should be first with wind as auxiliary. Wind works well to back-up solar panels in winter. I have solar and wind and get no worthwhile charging wind in summer. Do get wind mid-May to mid-Aug when we need to help solar.
What locality are you and can look up wind charts.
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Reply By: Member - Geoff C (QLD) - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 13:52

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 13:52
We have a similar setup out the back of Millmerran Qld. We left the 240v wiring as is and use an inverter and deep cycle batteries to run that. The main advantage of doing it that way is that if I choose I can just hook up a generator whenever I want to. I find that the 240v fluros are much more efficient and cheaper than 12v lights. The dearly beloved is insisting we fit an airconditioner and as we're getting older it will be fitted soon to ease the heat of summer. The 240v gives much more flexibility, we can use microwaves, battery chargers for when we run the batteries flat and one of the nicest things, we can make decent toast for breakie.

Geoff
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Reply By: Member - Allan B (QLD) - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 14:04

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 14:04
Hi qubert,

You say "its only for 12 lights, tv and fridge." I take it that these are all 12 volt.

You do face some problems both lawful and practical.

The wiring regulations do not allow you to use standard 3-pin outlets on ELV (12v) systems for good reasons. If you put 3-pin plugs on your 12v TV and fridge to connect to the existing 3-pin outlets you run a risk of these 12v appliances being plugged in to 240v outlets at some other time.

The existing switches both on the lighting and the power outlets are not suitable for 12 volt dc and may have a short life.

"being 12v i dont need the circuit breakers anyway" Yes you do. You should still have circuit protection with 12 volt. Although not designed for it, the existing ones will probably be OK on 12vdc. What will not be OK are any existing RCD's (safety switches) in your switchboard.

If you employ an inverter to supply your hut with 240v you could safely use the existing wiring and you have the advantage of being ready for possible later 240v mains or generator supply. You will however lose a little efficiency through the inverter. If you do use an inverter be sure to install a proper earth stake connected to the earth link in your switchboard with 4mm2 green/yellow cable.

In summary, you run some risks in doing this yourself. Cultivate an electrician to become your second-best-friend. LOL


Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 16:05

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 16:05
Something I'd be concerned about is how 240v ac circuit breakers handle 12v dc. The other issue is that the existing 240v wiring will be too light for 12v use, where far higher currents will be involved.


I'd be inclined to retain the existing setup for future use with a generator, or maybe an inverter, noting that the inverter probably won't be more than 80% efficient. I'd avoid the inverter because the temptation to plug in energy hungry 240v appliances (toaster, hair dryer, electric jug, .....) may be too much, and the batteries and inverter will take a hammering.

I'd suggest using a totally seperate system running some heavy 12v cabling around and tapping into it for lights (12v halogens are excellent, 5W, 10W and 20W are readily available, or LEDs) and 12v power for TV etc. This system should have it's own fuse/s right at the battery. You can set it up yourself without legal constraints and without tampering with the 240v system so it too remains legal.

HTH

John



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Follow Up By: Member - Allan B (QLD) - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 17:24

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 17:24
John, I agree with you totally.

Mucking about with the existing 240v installation is not a good idea.
Best to install a separate 12v system but even then it needs a bit of skill and knowledge to be effective and safe.

I get very nervous about some of the electrical expressions I read on this forum!

For the record, I think the AC circuit breaker contacts would handle the 12vdc OK but may trip a little prematurely. I did use one as a stop-gap on a 12vdc power supply once and it performed OK. Never did get around to upgrading it so presume it's still working!

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: trackker - Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 09:25

Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 09:25
John, for the record, I would not reccommend using AC breakers for DC. DC rated circuit breakers have 'arc snubbers' or magnetic 'arc blow out' devices internally that protect the breaker from sustained arcs and stops them from cathing on fire. An AC breaker may work on 12v with a small load, but increase your load amps and it may not extinguish the arc when it trips under load. Plenty of reference material on the net. Dave
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Follow Up By: trackker - Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 09:27

Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 09:27
Sorry John, above follow up is for Allan
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 10:00

Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 10:00
That's the sort of thing I was concerned about Trackker. The difference between ac and dc and their different requirements shouldn't be ignored.

The more I think about this one the more I favour a completely seperate 12v system. The existing wiring simply will not allow the necessary current handling. In simple terms, to keep the present wattage rating on lamps etc, if you drop the voltage by a factor of 20, you must increase the current by a factor of 20. Losses in the wiring, and the limited available energy, will make this totally impracticable.

The other factor that's easily overlooked is the need to minimise load. Running from a battery does not allow the luxury of unlimited lighting and electricity use, something that would be largely hidden from users if the system looked just like it does at home where there are some huge coal burning power stations providing almost unlimited electricity.

On 240 volts (until recently when compact flourescent lamps have become more common) we might run 60W bulbs. In 10 hours, one 60W lamp will use half the energy stored in a 100 Ah battery, or with 12 such lights, we'd half flatten the battery in less than an hour!!

Cheers for 2010

John
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Follow Up By: Member - Allan B (QLD) - Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 10:18

Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 10:18
Yes Dave, I would not recommend it either (as it is not exactly kosher), but it can be done without much risk. Standard AC breakers also incorporate arc suppression components. I had assumed that the breakers in question are 16 or 20 amp rated and at 20A and 12VDC there would be little arc created and easily accommodated by a breaker with a 4.5kA fault handling capacity.

Incidentally, the several circuit breakers marketed for automotive use on 12VDC and rated at some 50A that I have inspected have no arc suppression components at all. They were a simple breaker with thermal trip. Not to say that some may have arc suppression but look at the size of most ..... there is no room.

But no, I would not recommend it.
As I said "Mucking about with the existing 240v installation is not a good idea."

Cheers
Allan

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Reply By: Fatso - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 18:50

Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 18:50
Bight the bullet Qubert.
Install a decent set of batteries & a generator & maybe a solar or wind system just for maintenance when you are not there.
Run the whole place on 240v with a mixture of battery supply through an inverter & direct generator supply for high demand & charging batteries.
Can't go wrong then mate. Run everything from a fluoro to a power tools & even an electric cement mixer. No need to fart around with a Waco. Go for a 2 door Westinghouse.
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Reply By: qubert - Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 14:47

Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 14:47
thanks everyone for food for thought, i will procrastinate a bit more and then make my choice .....maybe.
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