A Byproduct / Nasty Repercussion of Over-Regulation ???.

Submitted: Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 02:28
ThreadID: 75962 Views:4140 Replies:21 FollowUps:33
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Back when suburban speed limits were 35mph and up till the time of multiple speed zones I always drove through "school zones" with a heightened sense of awareness and at a speed lower than the allowed maximum ... as I expected the likelihood of an incident ... particularly at drop off and pick up times.

With the requirement today for many log book hours etc for learner drivers, I have been spending some time in the passenger seat with younger family members to help out the parents with busy work schedules.

Whilst navigating through todays school zones - I have asked the question ... " What are you looking for, besides keeping the speedo needle on 40kph ??? "

The response in all but one case was along the lines of ... " The 50k sign somewhere up there "

When I asked .... " How will you see the soccer ball roll out on the street if you are concentrating on that sign up there "

The basic response was " Its just a soccerball "

Now I dont know for sure .... but I think if I was child chasing that soccerball ...
I would much rather be struck by a vehicle that an observant driver had slowed ... even from 60kph ... Than a vehicle that just blindly plowed on through at 40kph.

It would appear from my experiences that " school zones " have now just become speed zones and driver concentration is becoming fixated on getting to the end of it ... rather than appreciating the hazards which may occur in or on, that section of road. Its noticeable even just by watching other drivers around you.

Probably a wise move would be for us older drivers to ENSURE the new age ones realise - there are more important things to consider than just speed signs ... despite the false importance on JUST vehicle speed, as emphasised by the authorities.

Your Thoughts ????

.... and yes ... this is but one reason for my longwinded followups with Landy in the other thread.
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Reply By: fisho64 - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 02:55

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 02:55
what other thread?

Your entirely correct of course in theory-but try writing a piece of enforceable law along those lines. It would be the subject of more threads here on "ridiculous long-winded laws that are unenforceable".

Not sure if Im younger than you but the responses also sound like typical answers from younger persons.

So whats it to be-I suggest that the P-plater drives at 40kph even if you think he is safer to stop concentrating on his speed and go at 60 while looking around instead.
I'm not sure how the system works but do you have to sign him as completing it satisfactorily? Then don't sign him off til satisfied would be the correct action.
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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 16:40

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 16:40
1/. ... I dont think new laws are required ... probably education is the key ... And probably in those same buildings that have the 40kph limits outside them.

2/. ... Typical replies ??? ... Oh No - It wasnt the usual teen flippancy ... It was the mindset that they were only on a section of road with a lower speed limit ... Not a school zone.

And the whole point of the lower limit ... Is because IT IS a school zone.

3/. ... My apologies ... I wasnt suggesting P-Platers get a speed increase ... I was comparing an environment aware, driver ... with a driver fixated on finding the 50kph sign in amongst the ... Maccas - 900m, ... Reward for Lost Cat, ... Bicycle For Sale, ... Garage Sale this Sunday, ... What speed are you travelling at, ... No Parking, ... No Standing, ... Penguins Cross Here, etc ..... visual trash.

4/. ... Apparently Im hated for wasting an hour of one persons valuable doof doof / loungechair time ... since I didnt fill out the book for them ....

That one was seconded off to an Uncle Plumber who needed a hand replacing urinals in a couple of shopping centres ... Which helped very nicely to pay for formal driving lessons ... quite a few of them I might add ....
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Reply By: Wayne's 60 - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 03:00

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 03:00
Hi OZT,

One of the things I teach 4WDers is to drive in a "Pre-emptive" manner and not a "Re-active" one. It is the way we should ALL be driving and it would appear that it is a matter that concerns you too.

So many times I see young people, both male and female, shooting along roads and streets at a higher speed that is needed ...... or regulated, apparently their reflexes and the capability of the vehicle are sufficient to avoid any hazards in their way.

What worries me/we/us is that our children are starting to complain about the way people are driving on our roads. Go figure that .... it is something that I/we didn't think would take place.

Cheers,
Wayne & Sally.
AnswerID: 403846

Reply By: Member - Boobook - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 06:31

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 06:31
Young people are irresponsible, not careful enough on the roads and need to behave like their parents.

Now there is a new train of thought!
AnswerID: 403851

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 10:29

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 10:29
" need to behave like their parents" , what if they are 3rd generation hoons ?
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 13:44

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 13:44
Don't forget, it is often the parents that taught them to drive!
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Follow Up By: Who was that again? (Vic) - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 08:50

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 08:50
Boobook, you are right. Younger people up to about the age of 26, but I generalise in that, don't understand the risk factor. They have never at that stage built up the skills needed to assess the conditions and apply any knowledge of their own skill to the situation.

Another factor is the cocktail of drugs that so many have that alter any of the actual assessment they have built up. Makes them even more reckless.

Young people are often not assuming responsibility needed in a community situation.
Cheers,
Who?
John

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Reply By: Member - Lionel A (WA) - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:02

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:02
Ahhh.....School zones......my favourite places.

1: Watch that speedo, a sneaky rosser with a radar gun may be at the end of the line of parked cars.

2: Keep an eye out for Cougars, usually a popular spot to display themselves. A little wink and a nod of approval can work wonders.

3: Check out the display of current model 4bys, from a Jimny to a Hummer and everything in between. Like being at a motor show.

4: Be very aware of cars suddenly pulling out on you. The drivers have adjusted their mirrors, hair fine, make-up great, lipstick straight - off we go.

5: To add to this 10 second stretch of confusion, your usually deep in thought about what to have for smoko - pie, sausage roll or hamburger.

6: There's something else you must keep an eye out when traveling through a school zone but at the moment evades me, never mind.....it cant be that immportant....lol.


Cheers.......Lionel.
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Follow Up By: Member - Rob S (NSW) - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 16:35

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 16:35
ROLMAO




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and that's when I thought I was wrong!

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Reply By: Robin Miller - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:19

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:19
Always been of the opinion that if a proper analysis of the road toll including the unintended consequences which incudes accidents cause by increased eye-time off the road and directed towards sign watching , would show that recent over policing using camera based campaigns have increased the overall toll.


Worth noting that - reasearch organizations that seem to study every angle of what causes actual accidents, do not include a study of the unitended consequences.




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Follow Up By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:30

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:30
"a study of the unitended consequences." may give an unintended outcome young Robin and we can't have that!

Geoff,
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 13:22

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 13:22
I too wonder the same thng Robin - I thought I'd heard that the Vic toll actually increased following the introduction of zero-tolerance for speeding.

Perhaps the publicity by the Police doesn't help - the emphasis should be "slow down due to the high level of pedestrian activity in this area" but appears to be more like "slow down or you'll get a fine and lose some demerit points"
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 18:03

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 18:03
Just like in the NT the road toll increased after 130k speed limit was introduced.

But that would require politicians to admit that they'd made a mistake - like the NSW politicians who are insisting that we run a desalination plant using huge amounts of electricity - when our dams are 55% full.

And NSW has two of the worst polluting coal-fired power stations in the world - which could be shut down if we weren't burdened with an unnecessary desal plant.
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Follow Up By: Member - Royce- Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 13:55

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 13:55
Two claims that road toll increases after new safety laws introduced.

Easy claims to make. Where shall I look to find the stats? Over what period? 5 years following the changes, allowing for driver to adjust?

It's going to get much tighter on the roads and has to as more driver are out there.

I think maybe we will soon, all have transponders or etags of some sort with will keep track of speed zones. I often wonder why there isn't some marking code to show what speed zone you are currently in... maybe colours or patterns.

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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:46

Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:46
Fair comments Royce, no I can't substantiate my 'claim', just that I thought I remembered hearing a report at the time - of course, it could have come from anywhere.

Yes, with more vehicles on the roads, there is less room for error, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a time when a transponder recorded speed (although human 'rights' activists would have something to say I'm sure!)

But I question (perhaps with many others) where the RTA/Police should really be focussing their energy if they seriously want to reduce the road toll? What is actually causing the deaths on roads? I'd seriously question whether it's the person who's been driving for 30+ years with a clean record and happens to creep a km/h or two above the posted speed limit just while Mr Plod happens to be watching (no, I'm not referring to any personal incident). But of course, I'm not denying that this person is breaking the law (a limit is just that: a limit) nor do I have any studies or official reports to back up my 'claim'! :-)

And I've heard suggestions of different paint colours to indicate different speed zones but the RTA couldn't even manage two paint colours (white and yellow - hence double unbroken lines are no longer yellow, but white like all other linemarkings), how could they manage ten?! ;-)
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Reply By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:38

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:38
I blame the bricklayers, always have, always will.

Obviously they are mixing some form of radio emitting device into the mortar of schools and shopping centre's.

The devices emit a signal at the exact frequency for disconnection of a womans brain. From my observation it moslty affects woman, always around schools and shopping centre's.

Geoff,
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Reply By: MrBitchi (QLD) - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:46

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:46
I'm in the same boat with MissBitchi... Trying my hardest to teach her to be aware of eveything going on around the car, not just the speedo or the car in front...

It pains me too that on numerous occaisions recently I have been witness to acts of blatant stupidity carried out by drivers with P plates, mainly the red ones :-(( They seem to think that once they have thier licence they can then do whatever they want. They've probably allways been like that, it's just that as mine approaches that age I'm more aware of it.

How the hell do we get the message across??
AnswerID: 403872

Reply By: landed eagle - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:48

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:48
I live 300 metres from a school zone. Over the few years that my kids attended the school ( primary), the number of times I saw near misses, is shocking. People dropping their kids off actually on the crossing or obscuring the crossing by parking inside the exclusion zone was a common occurrence. No standing areas completely ignored etc.
I have politely pointed out this problem to said drivers only to be told in no uncertain terms where to go.The police blitz the area every now and then,getting quite a few scalps,but it doesn't take long for the usual suspects to ignore the rules again.
My kids are now at high school and don't need to use this crossing in particular anymore, but even though they are older now, they have learn't from experience to not take it for granted that a driver has seen them on ANY crossing until the vehicle has stopped.

I'm in the habit of doing 25km/r through the local school zones these days. I've had to stop and throw an errant soccer/footy/tennis ball back over the odd fence or two over the last few years. One was being followed by a completely oblivious to my presence 8 year old.It's amazing how well kids can jump fences!!
AnswerID: 403873

Reply By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:58

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:58
You will have to wait until they have children, and let them watch drivers tearing through while they are parked picking up their children.
AnswerID: 403874

Reply By: Mick O - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 09:08

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 09:08
Our school zones down south are 25 kph. I'd suggest that even if they were fixated on a sign, they would have a lot better chance of dealing with a sudden surprise at 25 kph than they would at 40 kph. The real issue is that it's up to you and those teaching them to 'learn' the little blighters to pay appropriate attention. You can only instruct them.

I was always taught to be cognisant of what was happening well ahead and to think about it. That green light a few hundred metres up the road has been green for a while and will probably change soon so you'll have to brake etc etc. I'm constantly amazed at the amount of drivers who drive no further ahead than the pair of tyres in front of them. No wonder there are so many rear enders.

Hey has anyone noticed how the majority of right lane violators are "P" platers. They won't keep to the left under any circumstances. All young, all displaying brand new 'P' plates and seemingly oblivious to the road rules, the "keep left unless overtaking" one in particular!

Mick
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 13:26

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 13:26
I haven't noticed that's limited to P-platers - usually they're constantly overtaking anyway, so they are usually legitimately using the RH lane! :-)
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Follow Up By: Member - Duncs - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 20:37

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 20:37
I drove down through the Blue Mountains this afternoon. There were quite a few right lane huggers.

One was a woman probably in her 40's she was proudly displaying shiny new green P plates, she changed into the right lane, accelerated up beside the car in the other lane and then braked to stay there. All the others, and there were lots and lots of them had no P plates of any description.

It's not just the young-uns.

How do we teach them. By doing it.

I had a heavy vehicle instructor ask me to tell him everything that I looked at while I was driving. Try that when you are teaching the kids. Then do it for them while you are driving. They don't just learn in the front right seat.

Duncs
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Reply By: Willem - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 09:22

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 09:22
OzTroopy

Ah! the ball across the road...yes...I nearly got cleaned up by a 1948 Buick doing exactly that.

I started driving cars when I was 8 and received my licence when I was 18. There weren't things like P plates where I grew up. Together with me mates, I was a regular hoon when I was able to afford a car. No different from some youngsters of today. But there were less cars around then and we survived a number of crashes, accidents, stupid driving antics and general mayhem.

After being on the road for nearly half a centrury I am very aware of what goes on around me but mistakes still happen and a lapse in concentration saw me alter the exterior panels of the wagon on our rear gate not so long ago.

I agree that we can be so paranoid about speeding fines that we watch the the posted signs intently and that can divert attention from what is going on around us. Some drivers seem tp be unaware of what is going on around them and drive their vehicles as if in a daze. School zones in SA have a 25kmh limit and one has to be very aware of whats going on around you when you drive through them

I suppose the answer lies in more education before a drivers licence is granted and propbaly it would be a good a idea to test older drivers too on a regular interval basis.

Cheers
AnswerID: 403879

Follow Up By: Rob! - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 10:35

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 10:35
Test older drivers? That would be political suicide. Everybody knows it's the OTHER drivers that need to taken off the road.
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Reply By: Member - Barry (NT) - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 12:01

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 12:01
Verry good original post Oz.

I agree with your thoughts. I taught heaps of guys to drive heavy vehicles and cranes etc years ago and how to avoid or recover from incidents if the worst does occur.

3 years ago a friend was trying to teach his wife to drive - absolutely no success.

I agreed to go for a ride after about 4 months of her being "on the road" as learner.

Discussed a few points what if etc, set up mirrors, be aware of what's behind.

Took off,,, ask the question,,,, what are you going to do at T junction,,, no response. She obviously hadn't planned, ie what lane do I need to be in, at what point do I indicate,,,, where are we going (she had been told where we were headed and was familiar with the route).

I believe this very common these days ie just drive along and engage brain at some stage. 5 P's works for me ie - Prior, Planning, Prevents, Pathetically, Poor, Performance (politically correct you will note,,,lol).

In todays modern world this is how we seem to operate,,, go go go with little though for actions + consequences and when something goes wrong we balme someone/something else.

Pilots used a technique called the "bubble" years ago,,, ie look for possible threats ahead, to the side and behind and I find this works well with driving,,, say look 200-500m ahead,,,, road junctions etc to the side and what's behind at all times,,, with distances adjusted for your speed and condtions on the day.

I belive if this was taught first up we could,,, or just maybe,,, have safer drivers.

Cheers Baz
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 13:32

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 13:32
Your example of the bubble is a good one, it reminds me of when I was training for a motorbike licence - the instructor was pointing out all these things about anticipating and preparing for hazards and all the people in the course already had car licences so all I could think was "why isn't this taught to people before they get their car licence?!" Of course, the consequences of a collision while on a motorbike are far worse than in a car, but isn't it better if we could anticipate and avoid collisions regardless of what we're driving/riding?!
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Follow Up By: Road Warrior - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 14:15

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 14:15
Spot on there, I do a bit of driver/rider training on the side for people who ask and the one thing that stands out is the lack of appreciation for risk management and anticipating hazards. The current licensing regime is partly to blame, as well as policymaker interference in licensing rules and regs - these bureaucrats need to be removed as much as possible from preparing legislation that concerns road use and novice drivers.

Incidentally, the #1 cause of fatalities on our roads isn't speed or speeding...
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Reply By: Member - Timbo - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 13:38

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 13:38
OzTroopy, good points - perhaps a shift in emphasis from the authorities has encouraged this attitude. A lot of traffic law enforcement is publicised "don't speed or you'll get a fine and lose points" or "wear your seatbelt or you'll get a fine and lose points" or "don't talk on the phone while driving or you'll get a fine and lose points " while it should be "...for the sake of your safety and that of other road users".

Perhaps you could ask them "Why do you think there is a reduced speed limit here?" Is it just to practice driving at different speeds, or test your patience, or give Mr Plod something else to fine you for?!

My Dad always taught me to look under stationary/parked vehicles for the feet of people walking behind them, and rather than just warning me about soccerballs, tried to get me thinking with questions such as "If a soccerball comes onto the road, what do you think might be following it?"
AnswerID: 403907

Reply By: Rod W - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 15:22

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 15:22
Hey OzTroopy you say "Back when suburban speed limits were 35mph... and ... particularly at drop off and pick up times."

I seem to recall in the days of 35mph there wasn't much if any of being dropped off or being picked up, we all walked to and from school or got a bloody good hiding.
AnswerID: 403920

Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 16:00

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 16:00
Baaahaaahaaa

School Buses at public schools Rod W .... Even though the kids were made to wait, standing in line and had teachers to discourage them from running amok .

And hair dresser appointments were still inconvenienced by having to go via a private school .... even back then.

Ahhhh yes .... the bloody good hidings .... maybe thats whats lacking today ?
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Reply By: _gmd_pps - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 17:04

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 17:04
thoughts ?: You are teaching brainless kids ?!
rest assured there are other learner drivers!
I can give you many other examples from other areas where you could make the same points ... just boils down to the mental capacity. Some need dressage and some are actually able to think!
I have a sign at the back of my truck: " Be alert - I brake for animals", and that's not a joke because the majority out there cannot keep a save distance.

Apart from that in general we do not have 50 signs after the school zone! Only school zone end.

have fun
gmd
AnswerID: 403932

Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 21:45

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 21:45
CRIPES ... _gmd_pps


If your council or whatever is gypping you on the 50kph signs then that only aggravates the situation Im talking about.

At least a circle around some blurry numbers is more discernable from a further distance, for what it is ... compared to a white board with just letters on it.

Still ... I suppose if your area only has "End School Zone" as notification ... they might at least understand they WERE in a school zone when they get close enough to read it.
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Reply By: Hairs & Fysh (NSW) - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 21:23

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 21:23
Hi OzTroopy,
I agree with you.
it's about being aware, having perception and second guessing peoples actions & movements. And just because the sign says 40 doesn't mean you have to do 40 while going through the zone, whether or not there are people there or not
A couple of parents and myself have taken it upon ourselves at our local primary school to be the school zone Nazi's. As unpopular as we are for our out spoken comments to parents and carers that travel too fast or act in a manner that Could injure a child or someone else, we will continue to confront people over their dangerous driving.
As unpopular as we are with some who continue to drive in a manner that will injure someone one day, we are slowing getting through to people.
I realize some will not agree with this method, but our kids are to precious to loose.

What i don't understand is, when the H/way patrol does come, they sit in a location that is highly visible from all four directions, no one gets booked.
I have asked about this apparent act of stupidity and was told it is a deterrent, proactive policing. If the patrol car is visible, no one will speed.
I questioned, shouldn't they conceal them selves to catch more people. so then people will never know if the police are there or not, parked amongst the cars,
And the answer was, "If they see us they don't speed, therefore that lowers the chance of an accident".
I'm still shaking my head at that.

Anyway, The standard of driving has fallen through the floor over the last couple of years, and I'm at a loss.
I guess all I can do is drum it into my kids to be responsible road uses, even though they are few years off from applying for they licenses.

That's just my view of it.
Cheers.



AnswerID: 403959

Follow Up By: Lex M (Brisbane) - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 21:59

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 21:59
"I questioned, shouldn't they conceal them selves to catch more people."

Next thing you'll want them to hide speed cameras.........

Running and hiding before the onslaught......
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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 22:30

Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 22:30
G'Day Hairs & Fysh

I can understand your frustration regarding the school area policing if your involved in it ... however Im all for the proactive policing ... there just needs to be enough of it to make it work properly.

Much better to smack the naughty puppy at the time .... rather than 3 weeks after it has forgotten what it did.

Maybe until the patrols are available more often and at any time .....

Keep being obnoxious on the crossing with the lollipop ??? ....





Hah Hah Hah Lex .... a little poke at Thread 75920 huh ???
.
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Follow Up By: Hairs & Fysh (NSW) - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 08:02

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 08:02
Hi Lex,
I honestly don't have a problem with hidden speed cameras.
Because atm, as it stands, most peoples attitude is they speed between cameras.
Travel up or down the Pathetic, sorry, the Pacific H/way and motorists travel at about 110 between cameras, a camera is sign posted to be ahead and every body drops their speed to 90 odd k's. It's only the real stupid or dumb that get snapped and fined.
It's the same as these bright coloured Candy Cars that are used as High Way Patrol cars. Sure have a couple, but what ever happened to them being white commodores? Nobody knew if the next white commodore was a cop car or not.

OzTroopy,
I agree with you there on the smacking the puppy analogy. It does work. :)
When I've question some for why they were speeding, the majority of the time the answer is, "because I'm Late"
What a poor excuse.


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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 08:10

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 08:10
Heya Hairs ...

Sent you an e-mail too ... with some info that might be useful for a "parent / teacher / student " night ... since you seem to be active in that area.
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Follow Up By: Hairs & Fysh (NSW) - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:36

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:36
Cheers,
Haven't had a chance to look at the site yet. I have saved it to my book marks and come Monday night I will be checking it out, thanks again.


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Follow Up By: Hairs & Fysh (NSW) - Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 at 19:56

Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 at 19:56
Hi OzTroopy,
I had a chance to have a look at the link.
It got me thinking.
I got some stuff off the RTA's web site and then I approached the school principal with the idea of sending home attached to the weekly News Letter a friendly reminder to parents, Grandparents and friends the dangers of bad driving behavior around schools. Which was agreed to be a good idea. And this is what was attached to the news letter, each month there will be something else sent home to remind those that drop off or pick up kids, of the dangers.
I know it doesn't tackle the problem of through traffic or the driving habits of those that don't have children that attend our school, but I felt I had to try something.
It is a PDF file.
Avoiding traffic congestion around schools

Thanks again for the ideas.

Cheers.

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Reply By: vk1dx - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 03:00

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 03:00
What compounds things these days is that pedestrians, and therefore their children, appear to think that they have primary rights on the roads.

In the days of the 35MPH no one would even consider stepping off the footpath until the way as clear. They would even wait on the footpath at zebra crossing and let you go by if you were close. Courtesy HAH GOOONNNEEE.

This is a habit (not law) that has found its way here the same as Maccas etc etc. Aren't pedestrians supposed to stop at the curb and wait until we stop. Am I also correct in saying that we are still obliged to stop when they get there. Problem is that they just charge out. So what do the kids do. The same as their parents.

What's the solution. Beats me. Thank heavens there aren't any signs like that on the Tanami. Or are there?

At least that is how it "appears" to me.

Phil
AnswerID: 403992

Reply By: Wilko - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 07:59

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 07:59
Hi Oz,

Great post.

In my line of work, there is a debate raging about whether not allowing kids to experiece risk, assessing those risks and overcoming the hazard is following on to an inability to assess risks in the workforce when they are old enough to join.Thus allowing them to do JSA's ect is next to useless

The boffins have dubbed it "disconection from the enviroment" and comes about by putting our kids in cotton wool (not letting kids do things that may scrape a knee or bruise so they can learn). It is more common in people born after 1980. The computer game revolution has a bit to do with it.


Could this be a reflection on the young people driving mindset as well.

Just a thought.

Cheers Wilko
AnswerID: 403999

Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:13

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:13
G'Day Wilko ....

Ive been concerned for some time about how the most important formulative and learning years in human development .... has been hobbled by modern social "standards".
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:57

Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:57
Wilko, it's not the first time I've heard of it (what line of work are you in?) and I don't doubt that it has an impact on the way people drive as well. Everyone's so scared of being sued that the playgrounds etc. are all so safe that you couldn't hurt yourself if you tried, then kids grow up never learning to do that all-important subconscious risk assessment before doing something that could be dangerous - it's been flagged as an issue relating to safety on construction sites (oh, and that kids often won't listen to an older person telling them what to do - especially if it involves wearing 'untrendy' safety gear).
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Follow Up By: Wilko - Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 13:33

Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 13:33
Hi Timbo,

I'm in the mining/minerals sector. The only groups that were single out not to experience this in large numbers were kids from low income, Aboriginal, and rural backgrounds.

Basically our modern lifestyle is not letting kids be kids but if your doing it tough financially, or your an aboriginal or from a farm you get to do so called "risky" pursuits and you learn from having done them.

Sounds like when I was growing up

Cheers Wilko

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FollowupID: 673987

Reply By: The Landy - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:10

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:10
What is being highlighted here is that many drivers, of all ages, are inattentive when driving and I’m sure we all suffer bouts of this from time-to-time, perhaps some more than others. An inattentive driver is dangerous in any environment, whether it be on the freeway or through the local school zone and whether they are a 16 year old learner driver, or a veteran with 50 years of driving experience.

The log-book system for learner drivers’ gives those ‘instructing’ the opportunity to pass on the important aspects of driving; the skills required to control a vehicle, the need to remain in a vigilant state at all times and, importantly, the responsibility that goes with the privilege of being issued with a licence.

I congratulate those who are of a similar mindset to OzTroopy in being unwilling to ‘sign-off’ a log book if you don’t think the lesson or session has been to an acceptable standard. However, the risk we are exposed to here is this system relies on those instructing to have the ‘required standard’ in the first instance.

Further, anyone with a full-Australian licence can supervise learner drivers in achieving the required log-book hours. That is a major deficiency in the system, and perhaps one step towards ensuring higher driver standards in the future would be to require anyone intending to supervise learner drivers demonstrate, in the very least, they have the required knowledge, experience, mindset, and skills to do so. Otherwise we simply risk passing on the (poor) driving biases of the instructor, whoever that is.

And incumbent in this teaching responsibility is that we ensure those we instruct have a respect for all road rules, regardless of our bias towards them.

There are other steps we could take to ensure better road education, and this could include a greater focus in the school curriculum. Perhaps it should also include re-current training for those who currently hold a licence. Once you have been issued with a licence you have no obligation to demonstrate you retain the ongoing skills, or mindset, to maintain that entitlement. This means you could have a driving career spanning half-a-century or more and not have your driving scrutinised by anyone. I pose the question, ‘in the past 30 years how different are driving conditions, the vehicles we drive, and the driving environment changed, and whether those issued with licences 30 years ago have adequately kept pace with these changes’.

And yes, I acknowledge that EO drivers are amongst the best in the world – however can we be confident that others whom we share the road with meet the standard we seem to be calling for here?

Be safe….The Landy
AnswerID: 404006

Follow Up By: Hairs & Fysh (NSW) - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:46

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:46
Hi Landy,
You Wrote
"Further, anyone with a full-Australian licence can supervise learner drivers in achieving the required log-book hours. That is a major deficiency in the system, and perhaps one step towards ensuring higher driver standards in the future would be to require anyone intending to supervise learner drivers demonstrate, in the very least, they have the required knowledge, experience, mindset, and skills to do so. Otherwise we simply risk passing on the (poor) driving biases of the instructor, whoever that is."

I agree with this. You are so right about it, and I have thought about this many times when I have watched Learners being taught by their parents that I know that have some of the worst driving skills I've ever seen.
They are passing on their bad driving habits.

Cheers


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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:58

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:58
G'Day Landy ....

I think I have a personal experience that sums ups Willems;

"After being on the road for nearly half a centrury I am very aware of what goes on around me but mistakes still happen and a lapse in concentration saw me alter the exterior panels of the wagon on our rear gate not so long ago. "

.... and your first paragraph.

Not long after becoming a roaduser I was travelling down a street.

Half a block down was a vehicle roughly centred in the street indicating to turn right into a driveway.

I assessed the oncoming traffic speed the vehicle was waiting for, slowed my own speed and moved to the left so that I would easily fit through the gap that would be available as the vehicle in front made its move.

Feeling secure that all was in order I spent a second or two admiring a couple of lasses on the righthand side footpath ..... also noticing that the oncoming traffic the other vehicle had been waiting for ... was passing me.

Looked ahead ..... and there is the right turning vehicle, SWINGING LEFT left to get a better run at the driveway.

Because of the speed I was travelling, damage was minimal ... but the threats of dangerous driving, not paying attention, driving too fast, tailgating blah blah blah by the attending officer who had no idea of the circumstances .... made me realise very early on ... that no matter how well you plan your drive ... Accidents happen ... and you can still be screwed over royally.

Was probably my most important driving lesson.


In reference to your posed question:

Huge differences and changes ... however I dont believe the correct manner in which a motorvehicle should be propelled down a street or road has changed.

Road conditions, Attentiveness, Vehicle Spacing, Driver and Vehicle Condition, etc., are still the primary requisites in getting from point A to point B safely ... Just as they always were.
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 13:16

Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 13:16
You've raised many interesting points Landy.

I'd just raise a few questions though - the fact that someone holds a full, unrestricted Australian driver's licence should be enough to "demonstrate that they have the required knowledge, experience, mindset and skills [to instruct a learner driver]" - otherwise, why are they even holding a licence drive themselves if they lack the knowledge, experience, mindset, skills etc.?

I'd suggest that governments are not so keen to push the recurring driving tests as it would be an inconvenience to the voting public, not to mention the additional administration the local councils/governments would have to handle. But I'd have to question the effectiveness of such a scheme anyway when it SEEMS that among the frequent 'offenders' (with respect to driving misdemeanours that many of us observe) are those who have only recently passed a driving test/logbook etc.

And OzTroopy - I've often wondered how many collisions have ocurred as a result (directly or indirectly) from a driver diverting his attention to admire a lass or two for a moment...?! But as your neighbour has demonstrated, swinging left to make a right-hand turn is incredibly dangerous (or vice-versa), but seems to be increasingly and alarmingly common.
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 16:11

Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 16:11
Hi Timbo…

Yes it should be, however, it is often the case these days that we ‘coach’ people to pass a test, rather than ensuring they have the required knowledge to do the job effectively. And therefore a licence only conveys the holder has met a required test standard on a given day, which could have been anytime in the last 50 years or more.

The log-book system is a step in the right direction as it requires learners’ to log driving hours under instruction, over a range of conditions, but it assumes those instructing are equipped to do so, and that is a fair, if not misguided assumption. And whilst it could be argued that basic driving skills don’t change, it could also be argued that the conditions under which they are applied are constantly changing and evolving. Driving is an exercise in risk management, with drivers needing to be able to multi-task in a variety of conditions.

I would tend to agree that it may not be politically palatable, although my point is that in the very least we should ensure those instructing learner drivers, under the log-book system, are up to date on road rules, and are themselves competent and safe drivers. And yes, that goes back to the first point. But we won’t know that to be the case unless we actually scrutinise the process. If we argue road safety improvements come through education, than we need to make sure that our instructors are of a certain standard. Holding a licence does not adequately convey that requirement, and that is a point often argued and alluded to on this site.

In an ideal world (I think it is called Utopia) we might require re-current training for all licence holders every so many years….. Society already demands this of many professions to ensure safety for the general public. But we stop short of requiring this of drivers, despite the risk associated with allowing incompetent drivers to be in control of a vehicle.

As is the case with many things in life, common sense and knowledge evolves over time, for some it is quicker than others, and for others time runs out. I suspect that is the approach to road safety once your licence has been issued, so the onus falls to us as individuals to make an honest appraisal of our own driving behaviours, especially if involved in instruction.

Cheers…..The Landy
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 19:47

Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 19:47
I understand Landy, and completely agree with your comments about 'coaching' someone to just pass the test, and I think this is probably the thinking behind OzTroopy's original post in this thread. New drivers are taught the 'letter of the law' but there seems to be little emphasis on the right attitude to driving - this is not something that is easily solved simply with "more education".

What I was subtly alluding to is that in my mind, licences seem to be being given out a bit too freely. Not that I think licences should only be granted to an elite group (of which I automatically assume I belong to in this case! LOL), but that higher standards should be met in order to obtain a licence.

Yes, regular re-testing is required in many other areas/activities but not generally imposed on the public as a whole - perhaps an outcome of some NIMBY-ism (we all like OTHER people to require re-testing of this and that, but not the activities I'M involved with!). It comes down to an evaluation of risk vs. cost to reduce risk, including consideration of the outcomes acheived: ie. to require re-testing across the board for every driver will cost X will acheive Y reduction in road trauma - is it worth spending X to get Y?

I'd expect a very small percentage of collisions & road trauma is caused by a driver's inabilities or lack of knowledge - I'd expect most (at least the more publicised examples) would result from poor judgement/decisions and/or blatant disregard for what they already 'know' (ie. attitude problems). And then there are a few that are purely 'accidents', which will never be eliminated as long as we've got imperfect humans involved...

In my mind, attitudes are having a far greater impact than knowledge, and this I think was the question OzTroopy's was trying to raise with this thread.
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, Feb 16, 2010 at 09:14

Tuesday, Feb 16, 2010 at 09:14
Reading the responses it appears many of us are in general agreement that there are flaws in our licencing system, both at the initial issue, and ongoing driver development.

And as OzTroopy pointed out in opening this thread, learner drivers are using less of the ‘grey matter’ with respect to alertness and common sense, and are simply travelling from one speed zone to another in a drone like way, and with little attention paid to the environment they are driving in. Although, I’d go further and suggest this is not a phenomenon that is the exclusive domain of learner drivers.

Of course, this begs a couple of questions. Firstly, as a community are we going to demand higher licensing standards for all in an effort to arrest this development? And secondly, if we recognise we have deficiencies in our licensing and training programs then do we actually want to ‘liberalise’ road rules, especially speed zones, and in particular speed zones in high risk areas like those around schools.

If we are pumping out a breed of driver that is less attentive to their ‘driving environment’ we should address that first, and before we consider ‘relaxing’ some of the driving restrictions (road rules) placed on all of us today.

I suspect the community, and therefore our law-makers, has neither the will nor conviction to tackle the real problem, and consequently we run the risk of being stuck with an evolving pattern of lower driver standards. The easiest response to this issue from those whose responsibility falls to road safety will be to control it through speed restrictions, an increase in the number and sophistication of detection devices, and a move towards zero tolerance of all traffic infringements. No doubt this will create angst from those who believe speed entrapment is no more than a cynical revenue raising measure; but is it?

All food for thought and enjoyed learning from peoples’ own experiences and thoughts on this issue…..

Now where was Utopia?

Enjoy your week……..The Landy
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Reply By: Member - Royce- Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 13:55

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 13:55
It's going to get much tighter on the roads and has to as more driver are out there.

I think maybe we will soon, all have transponders or etags of some sort with will keep track of speed zones. I often wonder why there isn't some marking code to show what speed zone you are currently in... maybe colours or patterns.
AnswerID: 404036

Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 at 17:08

Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 at 17:08
Good onya Royce.

That idea has been floated on here before ....

And if you're not doing anything next weekend ...

Ive got some rollers and masking tape ... if you have the paint ...
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Reply By: OzTroopy - Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 at 14:23

Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 at 14:23
Re: FollowupID: 674292 Submitted: Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 at 19:56

G'Day Hairs ...

Aaah Haahh ... The power of a forum .... A success story
... albeit a small one ... that with luck, may be adopted at other locations.

Some imagery from time to time may be a good thing to ensure the "safety message" is not glossed over as time progresses ... just a thought.

And yes ... the info I sent you was really aimed at older students but at least covered other aspects rather than just ...

" Dont drive faster than the posted speed limit ".


Also would like to take my hat off off to all posters ... who despite, differing opinions and humourous input ....

.... was very good Lionel ...


.... managed to stay on track and get a message / ideas across ... and without the interference of the "modsquad".

To those with learner drivers ... be patient ... but persistant ...

And I liked the "bubble" reference to common sense/attentiveness ... Quirky military nicknames always seem to work well as memory joggers ... SNAFU ... (for those in the know) pretty much sums up my view of todays roads ... lol

AnswerID: 404755

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