Fridge & dual battery connectivity question

Submitted: Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 07:55
ThreadID: 75988 Views:3447 Replies:5 FollowUps:7
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I'm about to install a dual battery system to charge the jayco camper trailer onboard battery.
The kit uses a 175amp anderson connector & 4B&S gauge wire via a projecta electronic isolator(150amp).. The battery part I understand but wondering about the fridge.. Can I connect the jayco 3 way directly to the jayco onboard battery if I put one of those fridge switches in line.. i.e will there be enough charge from the car's alternator to charge the battery & run the fridge which draws up to 15amps ?

Thxs SS
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Reply By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 08:29

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 08:29
Hello ss--ss,

Generally, if the load current draw is significantly lower than the maximum alternator output current (many of them are specced 60A or higher), the voltage supplied won't change much. This means that the additional fridge load of 15A won't affect the charging voltage too much.

The charging current, on the other hand will vary quite a bit with every amp of additional load current drawn (depending on SOC of battery), but you'll have to live with it in a setup like this.
Good thing is, the fridge won't draw this current all the time, which ups the average charging current through the battery somewhat.

Because of the many variables (alternator output voltage, wire and ground return resistances, temperature, SOC/DOD, duration of charging versus discharging) a setup like this is always going to be a hit and miss affair.
Your second battery will always be either under or over-charged.
Undercharging can be corrected by occasional boost charging with a decent battery charger.
Overcharging happens under high ambient temperatures at long distance travelling, and can only be corrected by dropping the charging voltage to 13.3V or so (temperature dependent).
A simple switchable in-line diode can offer the necessary charge voltage reduction at the battery (similar setup like an isolation diode, just with a switch in parallel).

Best regards, Peter


AnswerID: 404000

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:17

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:17
Hi
Since the fridge is a 3way , it may not be thermostat controlled.
You have 2options to prevent it flattening the van battery
[a]fit a "FRIDGE SWITCH' in the van
or
[b]an ignition controlled relay switching a separate feed from the main battery [heavy cable]
This WILL give better results including better charging of the van battery. Which is very unlikely to be overcharged if same type as main battery[type meaning all wet lead acid or all agm ]
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Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 11:28

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 11:28
oldtrack123,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Which is very unlikely to be overcharged if same type as main battery[type meaning all wet lead acid or all agm ]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

if his alternator/regulator doesn't offer a battery temperature sensor input, it'll always generate an output voltage at varying degree of accuracy (accuracy in terms of what the battery wants to see under a certain charging-temperature).

It doesn't really matter whether both batteries are of the same type or not since the cell gassing voltage potential is always lower than the charging voltage potential, regardless of battery type. This spread varies with temperature, which is the reason why at higher temperatures (say 50 degrees plus) it becomes almost impossible to charge any lead acid battery, temperature compensated or not.
They are best charged at 20 to 25 degrees regardless of type, when the charge acceptance is already good enough, and the gassing voltage potential still high.
If you want to charge them at temperatures between 25 and 50 degrees, temperature compensation keeps gassing in check.

Temperature compensation is cheap insurance against loss of electrolyte in valuable deep cycle batteries.

If your setup doesn't offer temperature compensation, and you're using AGM or gel, it's really better to err at the lower end (undercharge), and occasionally boost charge with a quality temperature compensated precision charger.
Best regards, Peter
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Reply By: Member - John and Val - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 08:31

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 08:31
SS,

Your wiring sounds good, but even with the heavy cables and good connector I would expect a significant voltage drop with 12-15 Amps being drawn continuously by the fridge. Even a slight voltage drop will seriously affect the charge you can push into the battery.

A couple of options worth considering - a dc-dc charger will deliver proper charging voltage to the battery even if the voltage reaching it from the alternator is well down. Alternatively, a dedicated line from the engine bay to the fridge would be a possibility - simply connected to the main cable up front. You shouldn't need a motion sensitive switch for the fridge with either of these options.

HTH

John
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AnswerID: 404001

Reply By: ss--ss - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:10

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:10
thanks for the replies.. I'm trying to avoid running extra wire from the car battery & having an extra anderson plug at the towbar.. I also have a 240v ctek charger which I can run on the battery every few days or so whilst travelling.. Anyway appreciate info & I'll give it a shot see what works best..

oh just one other thing , is it wise to use one of the mounting towbar bolts as a ground ?

Cheers SS
AnswerID: 404005

Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:15

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:15
how rusty is your rig? ;)

Shouldn't be a problem if there is a good steel mass, providing a good current return path to your starter battery/alternator ground connection.

Best regards, Peter
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:44

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:44
SS,
Some vehicles don't have a good ground between chassis and alternator - especially for high currents. On modern vehicles, there can be a fair bit of rubber between the two - body mounts, engine mounts, and some vehicles have had problems with strange lights coming on because of poor earthing of the trailer. If you hook onto the chassis, I tend to use a spare threaded hole, tap it out and strip it of paint and coat in vaseline.

I run a 4Ga earth lead from battery to anderson plug, and the extra battery I have in the canopy plugs into it as well. I also have extra straps between chassis and body and canopy - some of this is also there because of the HF radio.
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:53

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 09:53
I agree with everything John has said.
Even with 4Ga wire, an extra 15 amps travelling down 8 metres of cable to the camper and back via earth will increase the voltage drop.

You haven't said what type of battery you have - if you still need to buy this, I'd have a strong preference for an AGM over a wet cell deep cycle, as they will take more charge.

The 12V-12V charger is a good option and is best installed in the camper. There are more of these coming on the market. I've been considering buying the Sidewinder one (LINK) because the upsized voltage is variable and the price is good, but have no experience with this product. Other common brands of 12V-12V chargers are Arrid twincharge, Ranox and Redarc.
AnswerID: 404010

Reply By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:16

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:16
your 4Ga wire will drop around 0.12v at 15amps, allowing for 10 metres of the stuff. You will get far more v drop over the connections than the cable.

Its also good for 135 amps and I doubt you'll be pulling that over it.

Just connect it up and whizzo your set.
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AnswerID: 404011

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:23

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:23
Hi Bonz

Yes the fridge will give about0.12v drop, but on top of that there is the battery charge current voltage drop another 0.12v @ least.
It is then 0.24v drop , quite significant when trying to FULLY charge a remote battery
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 12:18

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 12:18
I guess it depends on the output of the alternator, 0.3v from 14.2 doesn't matter a lot, IMHO 13.9 should fully charge a battery anyways, but even down to 13.5 should do the trick.
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 18:47

Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 18:47
The voltage available for pushing charge into the battery is already pretty small. The battery's "native" voltage is a bit over 12.6V. The alternator output will be in the range 13.7 - 14.2, less when the alternator is hot. So the potential difference isn't much over about 1volt. You can easily lose a quarter of that if there are 20 - 30 amps flowing, even with the big cable and connectors planned here. I think if it isn't desirable to run a seperate wire from the front to the fridge, a dc-dc charger is probably a good way to go. Smaller ones (7.5 amps) cost less than $100, a big 30A one can be had for well under $300, about the price of an AGM battery.

HTH

John
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