geni requirement for inverter welder - confussed ?

Submitted: Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 16:33
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Hi all,

I know, again with the dam welding topic !

I have a Honda EU20 and want to run a inverter welder for emergency repairs whilst travelling remote.

need some advise from those that actually use a Honda EU20 or equivelant to power an inverter welder!
(please correct me if I'm wrong but this is a 2KVA generator)

getting mixed/confusing info from different sellers of different amperage inverters.( all MMA stick welders) below is response from 4 different sellers .

80 amp inverter - you need a 3KVA geni, it should work ???
105 amp inverter - you would need at least 3 KVA geni.
140 amp inverter- not sure what your geni output is, but it should work ???
200 amp inverter - yes, it sure will.

In a forum thread I read that if amps were kept low, the geni wouldn't trip but the above responses have confused me on this issue.

cheers,

Evan




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Reply By: Notso - Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 16:38

Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 16:38
Don't know much about inverter welders so take anything I say with a grain of salt. But I would say you'd be lucky to run any Inverter welder off a 2kva Honda. The 80 amp one would be as close as you'd get I think.

What voltage are they running at?

Multiply Volts times Amps and you get KVA.
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Follow Up By: Notso - Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 16:39

Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 16:39
And of course there are losses in the inverter so power out doesn't equal power in if you get my drift.
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Follow Up By: Notso - Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 16:40

Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 16:40
Another thing you need decent penetration for welding and the only way to get that ios with amps.
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 17:23

Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 17:23
Hi
Just Do not believe anything a salesman tells you unless they will give you a written guarantee that it will be ok & if it does not they will give you a full refund
Then watch them dive for cover!!
What you need to know is the MAXIMUM KVA demand of the welder,then allow at least another 10% to determiner genny size.

Max KVA demand is amps by open circuit volts
open circuit volts is usually around 45v But you need say t safety margin, at least 15%
BUT the ability of any particular model to be able to respond to being instantly loaded to it near max capacity will be the real problem.
Many may have a problem with the motor keeping up that sudden load & may slow down or stall

Here is a link to a typical 130amp inverter welder NOTE RECOMMENDED Genny size
http://www.sydneytools.com.au/shopexd.asp?id=12428&bc=no
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Reply By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 16:42

Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 16:42
Forget welding with the 2kva honda..

alternatives are

alternator welder ..www.unipower.com.au

24v DC MIG

24 / 36 DC using batteries...lots of info on this site use the search engine...previous posts within the last few days
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Follow Up By: Member - Morry H (WA) - Sunday, Apr 11, 2010 at 21:19

Sunday, Apr 11, 2010 at 21:19
hi had a unipower welding alternator on my tow truck at norseman, and it was 240volt as well worked real good for me
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Reply By: garryn1292 - Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 17:21

Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 17:21
Hi, I have a 2kva honda geny & have tried to weld with my inverter welder (Fronius ) with the amps as low as possible & still weld. it was useless not enough amps, & with the amps up a little, tripped the geny.Best bet is to use 2 or 3 x 12v batteries Regards Garry.
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Reply By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 17:32

Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 17:32
I went to buy a MIG to take on my trip and the salesman said "Where do you intend carrying the 7kva gennie to run it"

Never bought one and never needed one either


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Reply By: Member - Nick (TAS) - Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 19:25

Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 19:25
Nope, its not 2KVA.They are 1.6kva continously rated, 2kva on start up.Which means that as the appliance starts up it can draw up to 2kva but once running, it will only run 1.6kva.
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Reply By: Member - evren1 (WA) - Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 19:34

Saturday, Apr 10, 2010 at 19:34
thanks all for replies,

I'm keeping it simple and going to stick with 2/3 battery welding and a good selection of rods.

it's only for emergency purposes and I've prooved to myself I can do it in the shed so I'm running with it!

cheers.

Evan
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Follow Up By: Member - Ed C (QLD) - Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 at 21:29

Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 at 21:29
Evan,

Check my reply (below)

Regards, Ed C

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Reply By: workhorse - Wednesday, Apr 14, 2010 at 20:55

Wednesday, Apr 14, 2010 at 20:55
I have an inverter welder and was told when I bought it not to run it off a generator unless it had a pure sine wave as it would fry the electronics in it. I use the old stick welder in the paddocks with the old geni and it's ok, but wont risk the inverter.
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Reply By: Member - Ed C (QLD) - Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 at 21:27

Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 at 21:27
Well, having done a bit of 'bush welding' (using batteries) from time to time, this question kind of aroused my curiosity...

I too, have a Honda EU20i (rated at 2000W peak, 1600W continuous)...

No-one to whom I have spoken has been able to give a definitive answer to the question of what (if any) inverter welder could be run from said generator...

Anyway, several days ago I spotted one on ebay, a "Top DC" unit identical to this one here (80 Amp unit) which the seller claimed to have been purchased for "a fabrication that didn't happen", and "new in the box, un-used", starting price $150.00...
Hmmm, might keep an eye on this one, which I did... Snagged it for $157.50 (+$9.65 postage) and it was delivered yesterday... showed no signs of having been used at all :)

Spent some time today testing it, and here's the results...
(all tests done w/- mild steel & GP electrodes)

Checked it out first on mains power, and everything seems to be sweet, so now for the 'acid test'...

Fired up the genny, let it warm up for a few minutes, then plugged in the welder and switched the eco-throttle OFF..

Tried it first w/- a 2mm rod @ 55A, lookin' good, lookin' good, no trouble at all in fact:)
Upped the amps to 65 (more than adequate for this size rod), and still didn't trip out the genny.. Indeed, I then proceeded to completely 'burn off' 2 rods in succession, and the genny just 'keeps on keeping on'... (I'm beginning to like this little gadget;-))

OK, time to try a 2.5mm rod (& a bit more amps)... 'arced up' quite nicely, got a nice bead happening, then..... nothing..... 'tripped' the genny (not entirely un-expected)

Turn the knob back to 65 (where it runs the 2mm rods with ease), let the genny cool for a bit, and try again.. laid down a couple of inches of weld, and she tripped again, so it's obvious that it's not liking this size rod :(

Back to the 2mm rods for a bit of a 'play', and I had no difficulty 'sticking together' bits of scrap up to 5mm thickness, the 5mm stuff requiring bevelling, and a couple of passes.. As a self-taught 'bush welder', I was more than satisfied with the results:)

One thing that I particularly like about this unit that I have, is it's very compact size.. just 240 x 140 x 100mm (9½" x 5½" x 4"), and less than 3 kg..
No trouble at all to find room for this nifty little gadget on any & all of our future remote area trips ;-)

The only thing not to like about it, is the cr@ppy (10mm sq. & not at all flexible) leads supplied with it.. don't like the hand-piece very much either, but these issues will be easily rectified ;-)

So, in summary...
From my observations based on some testing I did today, the Honda EU20i will indeed run a (small) inverter welder, albeit at low Amps, and with rods no larger than 2mm (2.5mm at a pinch, but very short runs)..

And that there is the bottom line, hope someone finds it useful..

Regards, Ed C
:)



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Follow Up By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 at 22:06

Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 at 22:06
Thanks Ed,
A thoroughly interesting read.

I'llhave to find out if a pair of EU10i's will run my CIGWELD 140VRD and 2.0mm electodes!

Thanks again,
Geoff
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Follow Up By: Member - evren1 (WA) - Friday, Apr 23, 2010 at 09:35

Friday, Apr 23, 2010 at 09:35
ED,

thanks very much for the response. I am now on the hunt for this inverter now you have "prooved" the geni works with 2mm rods.

Evan
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 15:12

Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 15:12
one can always wait for another traveller to roll up with his EU20i

one just needs to hook both em up so you have 4kva as i understand one can do

Then you shouldnt have any problems running 2.5 rods

on the 2mm rods,,,,stainless rods seem to need a lot less current than GP ...wonder if they'd work any better?
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Follow Up By: Member - Ed C (QLD) - Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 18:04

Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 18:04
Quite so, MN1 ..

'till now, I hadn't considered the need for the paralleling cables/device, but I might just pick one up (if they're not outrageously priced;-))

I do have some 2.5 stainless electrodes, which I didn't think to try.. might just give that a go too .. Are these OK to use w/- mild steel?

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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 18:30

Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 18:30
i use 2mm stainless on thin gauge stuff and get good results....have no flippin idea if the weld is anywhere near as strong as GP rods, but nothing has ever broken...and that was with the old trany stick welder and get better results now with the inverter stick welder
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 18:48

Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 18:48
expensive stuff if bought here

but cheaper here


or check this out
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Follow Up By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 19:17

Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 19:17
The interesting bit MN1 is when you grab the Honda book for the EU10i & EU20i.

All the parralleling cable for both models does is this:



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Follow Up By: Member - Ed C (QLD) - Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 20:08

Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 20:08
Velly intelesting ;-)

Thanks for the links MN1 :)

So Geoff, could one safely assume that the info posted in MN1's 2nd link is 'good info' ?

BTW, have you tried your (inverter) welder w/- the pair of EU10's ?

Regards, Ed C

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Follow Up By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 20:38

Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 20:38
G'Day Ed,

I'd consider MN1's information to be accurate. I'll have a go at finding one of the books for my EU10i's. Once I do that I can scan the relevant pages right from Honda san's own drawings!

I was quite amazed they just parrallel the 240V outlets and it all happens from there!

As to the EU10i's and the inverter welder, the answer is not yet. I had the welder out this afternoon making some brackets but needed to melt 3.2mm electrodes.

I'll do the deal in the next couple of weeks and let you know what happens.

Geoff,
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 21:08

Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 21:08
the important thing to realise in that link is:
if using extension cords beware that if you unplug the leads the one with male pins will be LIVE (240Volts) if you unplug them while genny's are operating ...this is a death trap
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Follow Up By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 21:20

Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 21:20
G'Day MN1,
That is one of the things that surprised me with the way Honda have approached the subject!

The banana plugs certainly hide that fact but the users manual lays it out in an open diagram!!

It's all very un-Japanese to me!

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Follow Up By: Member - Ed C (QLD) - Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 21:33

Monday, Apr 26, 2010 at 21:33
G'day MN1,
Yes, well aware of that (thanks for the reminder).. indeed, the very thought of a (male) double-ended lead gives me the shivers, though that is undoubtedly the easiest way to go about it..

I'll go with the shrouded banana plugs via the 'parallel outlet' jacks, though one will need to be mindful of polarity;-)

Catch ya later.. Ed C

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Follow Up By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 10:29

Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 10:29
G'Day Ed,
The genuine Honda kit for the EU10i's using the banana plugs isn't polarity marked nor is it keyed in any way!

You can put them in any old way and the system just works!

I don't actually get how they do it without concern for polarity or for phase synchronisation!

I guess that mystery Sawafuji box contains some seriously smart electronics!

I do know the output AC waveform from the Honda's has what looks like a communications signal super imposed on it! Mybe the inverters actually communicate with each other on matters of polarity and synchronisation?

Geoff,
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 12:05

Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 12:05
when someone finds out where to get the 4mm shrouded Banana Plugs here in oz let us all know eh?
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 13:43

Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 13:43
I am confused

Honda site shows just two cables

while another ..here shows a 10amp outlet and i suspect a 15amp at the bottom..... no pic but

what do we need?
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Follow Up By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 14:41

Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 14:41
G'day MN1,
This is the cable I have for parralleling my EU10i's, it cost me way less than the $139 on that site. In fact it was way less than $39 from the local Honda dealer in a genuine Honda plastic bag too!



The second one on the same site says for EU30i which wasn't out when I bought the above cable.

The 3 shown here look like they've been made up "in house"

The 32Amp single phase outlet would be targetted at a pair of EU30i's.

The 15Amp I guess is targetted at a pair of EU20i's or EU10i's.

Looks like someone at Honda Australia has found a source of the banana plugs!

Geoff,
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Follow Up By: Member - Ed C (QLD) - Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 14:56

Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 14:56
Geoff,
Well, if you don't get how they do it, then what hope do I have ? ..

In any case, I think I'll go with colour coded plugs, just for my own peace of mind;-) I've had a look behind the front cover on the genny, and established which of the banana sockets is the 'hot' one, and marked it accordingly.. I'll take it for granted that they're all wired the same (??)

MN1,
Jaycar have some 4mm shrouded (side entry, piggy-back) banana plugs in their on-line cattle-dawg >>

Jaycar

I'm down to my local 'lectronic shop/Jaycar distributor tomorrow & see what else they might have;-)

catch ya later....

Ed C

:)
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 15:07

Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 15:07
Geoff
from what I see is:
the cable just plugs into the receptables of each gennie and then one plugs into what?...one of the 3 pin gpo's of the gennie?
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 15:13

Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 15:13
Found them
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Follow Up By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 15:36

Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 at 15:36
G'day MN1,

Yep, you've got it. You parallel the gennies with the Honda cable and the banana plugs. Then hook your appliance into any of the 3 pin sockets on either of the generators and it just works.

It's funny when your approaching maximum load, one of the gennies will go out on over current protection and the other one being a good unionist goes straight out too. You have to disconnect the load, stop both gennies and restart both gennies then reconnect the load.

Good find on the plugs there! I looked on RS Components but hadn't got to Jaycar or Farnell yet!

G'day Ed,
I always ensure I connect the same jack on each generator to the corresponding one on the other, I'm probably a bit like you. It's also got to look right for me to be happy. As I said above, it doesn't seem to matter and Honda has made no attempt to lock polarity by using keyed plugs or even colour coding on the wire! The factory cable is just black figure 8 flex of about 4 square mm.

It's even possible to short circuit the output jacks if you connect opposite ends of the same core to the same generator! I tried that one without starting the generator.

Geoff

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