Rocks & Rubber

That's it Bob, I drove over em for 27 km & he managed 400 metres....:)))...
...oldbaz.

Yep, familiar with the computer spray, good old rig. Chemicals do require the
correct safety practises for sure. The words "toxic chemical" arouses the media
but ,as far as I am aware, not one documented case of death from ingesting
chemicals from food sources has ever occurred. The "organic" industry thrives on
such fears, & people pay double for inferior quality produce. A lot like the bottled
water industry really, one of the greatest polluters on the planet, producing a product generally available for free........oldbaz.

I'd have to disagree there, all the organic produce i see is far better quality.

And as for the chemicals, im not too sure i would call them safe. Would you drink it or boil up your veges in it? Wonder what its doing to the water table bellow.

But, as for your comments on the tyre pressures, i DO drop my tyre pressures when off road. BUT, i never had until i started reading magazines and such, and listening to the ''experts''. My old man lived and worked in the bush his entire life, not one square inch of the Kimberley he hasnt driven across he says, and he never touched his tyre pressures. And they only ever took 2 spares for each vehicle when going bush, sometimes for 6 weeks at a time. And im not talking just going bush, im talking making most of the tracks that many travellers follow up here in the Kimberely today. Going where no one has ever gone before. So i too am a little optimistic about how much lowering tyre pressure actually does. I myself only drop mine for the ride on corrugations, nothing else.

The natural disaster that has killed the most humans ever is drought. Why you ask. It is because drought causes famine. In Australia we no longer fear famine. We are accustomed to cheap high quality food with an endless supply
One of those uncontested media myths is that we can't feed ourselves & yet our farmers currently, even with drought, can feed 60,000,000 people(source NFF).
The widespread introduction of chemicals in agriculture is one of the main reasons why food production around the world has tripled in the last 60 years & is one of the main reasons we have such an affluent lifestyle here in Australia.
It is exports that pay for imports & we export a lot of agricultural products.
It is the foreign debt that potentially is going to send us broke. Food exports help balance out imported cars, electronics & all the other consumables in your life.
It is due some respect by all Australians.
The most lethal poison to man is amphetamine. The lethal dose is about 1/1000 the lethal dose of strictnine. Your probably dabbled with it & your kids certainly did or will.
The lethal dose of salt is less than the lethal dose of glyphosate (roundup weed killer) I can't exactly remember, but I think it is less than 1 cup of salt is lethal to humans & it is over 1 litre of roundup.
Food for thought.

Last week a farmer died while spraying weeds around his fence line,two paramedics were poisoned trying to rescue him,two neighbours were also affected when they touched the victim

Hazmart team eventually arrived and decomtaminated all personel,alas could not save farmer

yes,I haven't died from eating sprayed fruit an vegies,as you stated,but farmers and ppl need to read instructions when using poisons and not on windy days

Buggerboggedagain
Could you PLEASE post a link to verify your claim. I would like to see the circumstances surrounding the death and subsequent decontamination.

Bruce

Here is a link

link

Steve

A sad incident, but I feel it is drawing a long bow to conclude this bloke died
from the chemical. Another example of the media hysteria that occurs whenever
"Chemical" is mentioned. I have been threatened & abused many times by
people when spraying in adjoining properties, as they think I am poisoning them.
I now only work for bonafide primary producers & have given up the lucrative
small subdivision market. Surveys show fear of chemicals is in the top ten of
peoples fears, when in fact you have much more chance of being struck by
lightening than dying of chemical poisoning. However one is foolish not to take
all precautions when handling them, particularly in the undiluted state. Herbicides
are not that dangerous, but insecticides must be treated with great respect.
..........oldbaz.

A lot of so called organic farmers are like the Melbourne storm . " CHEATS".

That's why the so called organic produce look good.

"most organic food is better quality"

Not likely... at least visually. I can certainly understand the claim that food that has not been exposed to chemicals might be better for you....maybe.

But 'organic' food is usually blotchy and less well presented just because it hasn't had the treatments. I have never seen any research though to support the idea that organic food is actually better quality. Maybe if you can find some chemical residues in some then the quality is challenged, but the use of chemicals ends up with bigger, better looking fruit... that's why it's used.

A farmer would be a real mug to use chemicals, spend money to produce lesser quality food!

Well up here in the Kimberley, the organic stuff we buy lasts longer and tastes heaps better. Very rarely buy the stuff though as its dear but even chefs will tell you organic stuff is better.

I seriosly doubt with the poor kimberly soils and massive insect population much can get grown organically

"organic food" theoretically should NOT last as long as chemically treated food. That's the whole point of mucking around with food.... to make it last longer.

Organic food enthusiasts expect organic food to taste better... so of course it does..

Meanwhile ... my sister had plenty of mangos, tomatoes pumkins etc growing in her back garden in Derby .... self sown without a chemical in sight... so the Kimberley can certainly grow organic food.

Herbicides are not that dangerous,your kidding right,tell that to all the military personel whom came in contact with Agent Orange,which both US and Australian military bigwigs refused to link AO with cancer and deformaties in babies from serving personel in Vietnam.

Just looking at photos of the forests of Vietnam shows AO works very well on foilage. After many years of denial,they have finally recoqnize AO does cause cancer and deformed babies.

I suppose the media hysterical headlines regarding AO infecting our troops and the gassing of our troops in WW1 is just chemical nonsense to you.My father told me of the experiments performed on Australian soldiers in Nth Qld during WW2,recquiring volunteers to enter concrete bunkers while the "doctors" inserted various chemicals to gauge the reactions of chemicals on the skins of our troops.

It beggars belief that more of our soldiers died during these experiments than the Japanese whom it was intended for.

I am not surprised that the majority of people are scared of chemicals,when you hear about dictators using chemical warfare on their own people,which incidently is still banned under the Geneva convention,but it is very hard to stop those of Saddam ilk perpetrating these atrocities on the Kurdish population.

Those people who drink "diet beverages" are actually drinking a chemical which if taken in large quantities will cause the crapps,just look on wigleys chewing gum wrapper,its there in black n white,this chemical was invented by the US military to poison the other sides water supply,they figure when the soldiers drank the water they would be too busy crapping to actually fight a war, but in small doses its a great diet aid.

Interesting ramble. Yep... every chemical is poisonous. Too much salt, sugar, even water can kill you.

On one hand "hysterical headlines" then you suggest they are not.

And of course they were not hysterical. And of course they were real.... but not relevant to this topic. Strange wobbly logic.

The point of the conversation is about the use of chemicals in agriculture. There are arguments for and against. ]

Then there is just argument.

Ive got a mate thats always raving on about chimicals in this and chemicals in that

So i pointed out a black and white fact to him

People are living longer than ever
- each generation has been outliving the one before it and we live about 3 times as long as when ALL food was organic
- hey but thats just the facts

Might medicine have something to do with that? Definitely not chemicals thats for sure.

And as for poor Kimberley soil? Ever heard of Kununurra. Obviously not. Pretty sure they do alright there growing stuff.

Much of our food comes from down south anyway. And still the organic gear, or hormone free, or additive free stuff always tastes better and cooks better.

''The natural disaster that has killed the most humans ever is drought. Why you ask. It is because drought causes famine. In Australia we no longer fear famine. We are accustomed to cheap high quality food with an endless supply
One of those uncontested media myths is that we can't feed ourselves & yet our farmers currently, even with drought, can feed 60,000,000 people(source NFF).''


Thats very true, BUT only because farmers get bailed out with tax payers money everytime something goes wrong. Unlike any other business. If you started up a Kmart in Daly Waters and you went bust, thats your fault right. But its seems to me wherever there is a poor amount of rain fall there is a farm. Or when it rains on the wrong day, or doesnt rain, always something thats not right. Yet in places like Kununurra where the water will never run dry they dont wanna know about it. Pathetic how long it took for Ord stage 2 to go ahead because the government was to busy bailing farmers out elsewhere for there own bad luck.

One could stir the pot a bit more and start GM debate..............

Bruce

Muntoo posted:
Might medicine have something to do with that? Definitely not chemicals thats for sure

thats right - what i said chemicals arnt killing people

as for Kunnunurra - yea Ive heard of it - even been there

a tremendous amounts of chemicals are needed to be able to grow stuff up there economically
again proving my point

Now ask yourself the question, what tastes better: Fruit and veg from the shop or from your own backyard? Thats right, homegrown wins everytime, why because less chemicals.

I dont know what insects you refer to, as i was told recently by the Ag department that the Kimberley has the least amount of insects damaging to agriculture, thats why we have the quarantine stations in WA. Soils are perfect for growing stuff also, its the heat and storms that do the damage.

You must be right about the chemicals but, thats why everyone is flat out trying to catch a fish on the lower Ord now. Ever seen catfish with deformed fins and covered in black spots, or rifle fish with growths all over them. I have but only on the lower Ord. And only in the last 20 years. A place were you could reliably catch barra over the metre mark is now a place where you have to work damn hard to even see a barra, of any size.

Even at the mouth of the river, where fingermark bream, queenies, jacks, cod and all sorts of other fish used to flourish, no longer are they caught there.

And the protected and endangered sawfish is pretty much extinct there now. What was once a pest is no longer around.

Sad facts of life

I prefer fruit from the shops - they spray their orchards with chemicals
- mine are full of fruit fly and i hate the taste of maggots
and the silverbeet my missus planted was chewed out by slugs, the tomatos didnt form any fuit and neither did the strawberries

as for pesticide use - of course pesticides need to be used by the bucketfull up there - its the tropics.
The guy you spoke to at the ag department obviosly didnt know what he was talking about, Cotton farming failed up there due to their inability to keep insects at bay which is why their looking at GM cotton which is insect resistant

the legacy was many years of now banned pesticides in the environment such as DDT and Dieldrin

these are just the chemicals of most concern used in the ord river scheme
used today for rampant weeds and insects
Diuron, atrazine,Mancozeb,Glyphosate,Endosulfan, cypermethrin, chlorothalonil, chlorpyrifos,pendimethalin

as for fish - the daming of the ord has prevented the regular flushing it once got which has raised salinity and caused siltation around the mouth
- all things which will have detrimental impacts on fishing

Fruit and veg from the shop tastes way better than nothing. A lot of the season things are not 'in season' so not available from your garden.

Sadly you need to hunt around for the right seeds to get the tasty produce. Not all home grown turns out as you wish. Our tomatos this year were a dismal failure... maybe we should have sprayed.....

Muntoo posted:
Might medicine have something to do with that? Definitely not chemicals thats for sure.

lol...... medicine IS chemicals....

Not really alot of medicines come from plants too.

''as for fish - the daming of the ord has prevented the regular flushing it once got which has raised salinity and caused siltation around the mouth
- all things which will have detrimental impacts on fishing''.

As for that comment, the lower Ord gets a massive flush each year, more then it ever would if the dam wasnt there. I have seen the Kununurra dam equal height on both sides, absolutely pumping. Plus the dunham river flows in downstream of the dam, and it absolutely pumps also. That river flows about 20+ metres deep in the wet.

Well then if you know so much about it you should be writing papers diputing ones like this

ord river study

G'day Robin, it is an interesting thing, this pressure theory. I too thought that the reduction thing seemed logical but after shafting tyre after tyre eventually
discovered that the opposite was the truth....in my particular case. That is 15kph
with max load 1.7 ton, min .7 ton. I have taken that experience with me when
4wd touring & have had no issues with 40 psi. The impact thing must have some
affect, as it is extreme between 15 kph & 80 kph, but I cant prove any link within
my own experience. I believe higher pressure stiffens the wall & reduces penetration of rocks, sticks etc, & I also believe the bagging effect only contributes to damage by pinching sharp objects between the wall & the ground.
But all this is only my opinion, garnered from my own experience, & widely
disputed by most on this site, but...works for me. The terrain I was spraying
while not steep, was far from flat. I'm sure heat is the main source of tyre
failure, generally due to high speed, big loads....& not enough pressure.
cheers...oldbaz.

What's the other 1/2 of the story then...

I dont buy into the tree analogy, especially since the next door farmer had "willow tree" tyres and still broke one.

of course, the tread is some much thicker than the side, which is therefore the weakest section. However, by what ratio does reducing tyre pressure actually increase side wall risk. I'd like to have some facts here about how much greater the risk to the side wall is at 28 psi compared to 35+ as from what I can see on my vehicle is doesn't spread the tyre out that much. Which makes me think that in fact it's not about psi pressure value but the ratio between gross vehicle mass against pressure.

My point being I run light so 28 doesn't swell my tyres out that much. I also have 3 ply side walls, which again, isn't an average.

doesnt need to expose it much more

as i said 100% of my punctures are through the sidewall - in the crown area between tread and sidewall

if by letting them down to 28psi you are exposing say 5mm more which doubles the 5mm already exposed (examples only) then you have doubled your likelyhood of getting flats

as you say in a light vehicle 28psi may not give any appreciable difference and 40psi which is what i run may well be well over inflated

Strange isn't it... all food is organic and made of chemicals. Some have extra chemicals applied to change the farming and growing of them.

Having said that though. Lot's of our broccoli have bugs on them when we get them in from the vege patch. We usually remove them before cooking, but sometimes end up with white caterpillars on the side of our plate! Yum

G'day Chris, I am not sure where you are coming from re speed & load reference.
I refer to both in my reply to Reply 3. I cant comment on the affect speed has,
as since going high I have had no issue at 15 kph when spraying or 90 kph
towing my C/t. The sprayrig is not towed...carried. I didnt get a tek on the Birdsville, but stuffed a tyre by putting a 10mm spanner through the wall....back
in the days when I was advised to run 30 psi...I dont do that anymore....:))).
cheers...oldbaz.

Hi Oldbaz. Yes, I think I must have missed your earlier response, so sorry for that. you indeed did make the link which others failed to do (not to mention those who went off on a total tangent about food and sprays etc.). Perhaps the worst of all combinations is listening to the low pressure fans (I am one), but not getting the message that low speed is essential if you are running soft, otherwise its a recipe for disaster, probably more so if heavily loaded as well

I have tried low pressures and low speeds (under 30kph) and it still definitly exposes the sidewalls to damage
only time ill let my tyres down now is for sand

all my puntures have been at speeds of 20kph or less and in the sidewall

Get outmore: you have made a very interesting point: perhaps we are not disagreeing, so much as talking about different conditions. My perils have been about gibber tracks where you are tempted to keep up 90 km/h, and guess what, you blow a tyre while running at, say, 35+ psi. Now, under these conditions, I say (as do many others) 25 psi and 75 kph is more sense.
But you are talking about off road operations, I suspect in rough conditions, where bagging exposes the sidewall to stress.
Two very different scenarios, I reckon.
I'll happily let others debate about the "bursting a balloon" metaphor in relation to tyre pressure.

Personally and honestly I think lowering tyre pressures in order to prevent punctures/blowouts on gravel roads is folly and is something that is only really practised by 4WD enthusiasts.

Farmers, truck drivers, shooters, miners, ADF etc do not 'air down' as soon as they leave the blacktop. Dirtbikes run quite low pressures normally but in high speed rocky terrain pressures are increased to prevent punctures to the sacrifice of grip.

Methinks it's origins came about in 4WD clubs some time ago when members showed up with flash new air compressors and later on with tyre deflators. Flash new toys.

However, there are very definite benefits of lowering tyre pressures in stoney/rocky/rough terrain. Lower pressures provide a smoother ride which also places less strain on the vehicle. It also increases grip - higher pressures cause the vehicle to become skatey on gravel and slippery when negotiating steep inclines. If you're reducing pressures for these reasons then you will definitely find it beneficial. As with everything in this world there is always a trade-off.

Each to their own though and whatever works for you then you should stick to it. Me, I'll keep with ~40psi in my BFG AT's and lower my speed when the going gets rough. So far so good ;-)

I was reading an article on mining trucks , not Haulpacs but semis ( a new type in West Australian paper) and they actually raise there pressures to reduce damage when on the mine site and access roads. They use 120psi , not sure what normal road pressures are though it just says they needed to up pressures to 120psi to reduce damage from rocks.

I'm with you off-track

On our 6mth trip in 08 we started in Brisbane with 8 brand new tyres , 5 for the Cruiser and 3 for the C/T all the same brand and size , being a follower of the theory of lowering pressure we reduced pressure on the Strezlekie , 20 min after lowering to 28psi L/H rear tire on Cruiser shredded beyond repair , made our way to Port Augusta where I did buy 2 new tyres , 1 for the shredded and the other to have a spare carcase on the roof rack , now the fellow who fitted the tire had worked at Mungerannie as the tire fitter for several yrs , his NOW unbiased advice was to run high pressures, NOT low as so many outback tire sales places recomend ,,, Whats the first thing you see at Oodnadatta even before the pink roadhouse comes into view ?? Thats right a huge sign for Tyres ,
Left our tyres at 40psi front- 45psi rear and 38psi on the c/t , no flats for the rest of the trip of 23,000 klm of which 10,000 klm was dirt.

Hi TonBon. I wonder if you have read the Cooper's booklet "4WD DRIVERS'S GUIDE"? I know there are people who say "Coopers wouldn't know", and a few who believe conspiracy theories like "Coopers are just trying to sell more tyres".
But this little booklet tells it simply, giving info on pressures and speeds over various surfaces.
For the last 3 years, I've been following these suggestions AND switching to LT tyres as you have done. The result has been clear (but I wonder if it is worth putting up another 'final answer' in this thread!!)
Have a fantastic trip in July

Hi Chris, no I haven't read that but now that I know about it, I will seek it out. I wonder at your earlier about tyre deflation becoming prevalent after owners in clubs discovering new gadgets like compressors and tyre deflators. I have lived on a sheep station near Hay in NSW and never once did I see the station owner deflate tyres on the utes when heading into the paddocks. I also wonder at the communities that live in those very isolated places, travelling the same roads we aspire to get to once or twice a year and what their attitude is to tyre deflation. I really cant see these people inflating and deflating tyres every time the road conditions change. The coopers booklet I will read, other opinions I will seek but at the end of the day, only on the day will things become clear. Cant wait for the trip Chris, cheers.