Pt Smith - Conflict with local aboriginals

Submitted: Monday, Jul 05, 2010 at 22:50
ThreadID: 79886 Views:6196 Replies:8 FollowUps:35
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The Karajarri Rangers (not to be confused with Karijini)
The wife and I were fishing in Injudinah Creek a couple of days ago when we were confronted by a group of five aboriginals, an elder and four young blokes. Three of them were wearing a shirt with an official looking emblem on the pocket and the words Karajarri Ranger.

The old fellow walked over to me and sat down on the edge of the rock pool, that I was filleting a fish in, and told me that this was Karajarri land. He said that they were going to start putting up signs, sometime in the future; declaring these areas sacred and we would be limited to where we could go. He went on to tell me he was here to take my license plate number and to see that I didn’t break any fishing rules.

This mob didn’t look official - a bit amateurish and I did my best not to stir them but I asked the old fellow if he had any paperwork to show that he was authorised by The Fisheries Department or DEC. He backed off saying that no he hadn’t official authorisation, but he was helping them with their work.

After the incident when, I got back to the caravan park, I reported this event to the owner, who said that these aboriginals had recently been given native title rights around the area where they lived (the old La-Grange Mission), which didn’t include the area we were fishing in. I described the elder with missing front teeth and a beard and Bob said he was an old stirrer who had no official ranger status, other than amongst his own people. He said he was just trying to establish authority in areas he wasn’t entitled to and the best way to handle him was to challenge him as we had done.

I was telling a fellow traveller about the incident who said that he recently returned from Cape Leveque where the local aboriginals charged him $5 to visit a nearby beach.

Others at Pt Smithpark also reported similar challenges around Pt Smith but were bluffed into leaving the area - best check with the park owner as to the extent of native title before you go fishing and then be prepared to stick up for yourself.

Regards Dennis

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Reply By: Chipsy - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 08:02

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 08:02
Maybe they are trying to establish authority to better fight the proposed gas processing plant?

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Follow Up By: Muntoo - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 16:55

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 16:55
Your miles off mate. Wrong clan group.

And just to add, the rightful traditional owners arent opposing the gas hub. Its the media who are portraying it as such. The RIGHTFUL owners are all for it as long as the strict criteria is met, and as long as the benefits package extends out to all Aboriginal people throughout the Kimberley, in terms of better health care, education, employment, affordable housing and other programs. Its not about handouts, its about taking the burden off the government through handouts and making the people take the first steps in building a better future.

Only time will tell if this will work, and if it doesnt then no one can be blamed. They will be given the opportunity and the support to make there own way in life, its there choice to take it.
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Follow Up By: Chipsy - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 21:32

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 21:32
yeah well maybe so, have you been to any other communities where massive royalties are handed out? mutujulu? hermannsburg? not helping much. there is massive employment oppotunity in the kimberly already, if people havent taken it up yet then why would it change now?
all I see is a massive cash grab so if a few blokes of the "wrong clan" try to protect one of the most beatiful places in the world thats okay with me.
and I dont see it as their right to say yes or no, its all our right to say no to ruining something beutiful for the dubious ecconomical benefit of a few.

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Reply By: Gone Bush (WA) - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 08:43

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 08:43
What a pile of.....

I just love the way their mystical, love for Mother Earth manifests itself, so sacred.

Little alters of scattered VB cans as far as the eye can see.

At Top Springs recently I saw 9 cartons going out the door at about 7pm. The next day heading south to Kalkarindji we saw an empty carton every 15 kms. That's 10 litres per 15 kms. Shocking consumption in anyone's language.

The roadside debris continued and increased the closer we got. We saw the big sign saying that if we carried ANY alcohol our vehicles would all be confiscated.

It's a joke.

All this money being spent and no one can see that the basic cause of ALL the indiginous problems is that they are sequestered in these isoltaed communities where there is very little law and order and respect for community standards.

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AnswerID: 423216

Follow Up By: Turbo Lux - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 09:13

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 09:13
The cape is no different very well written.
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Reply By: roberttbruce - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 11:03

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 11:03
ask yourself this - if they turned up in the easment next to your backyard and started fishing your goldfish pond how happy would you be?...

realise that - aboriginal litter is not trash, it is age-old tradition of marking out territory ...the more cans, the longer and scarier the rainbow-serpent is...



im not trying to start a blu but five dollars buys nothing out there except, perhaps, a little dignity...

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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 11:36

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 11:36
Hi Roberttbruce
These guys were driving one of their communities government supplied, latest V8 Troopys.
Is this enough help with dignity - supplied by your tax dollars?

Last year I tried to visit their community at Bidyadanga consisting of government constructed and maintained roads, housing, school and store etc (how much help with dignity do you want?) and was warned by the Police not to go there uninvited, as it was private property.

Many want their special rights, sit down money, vehicles, services etc but none of the responsibilities, which have to be shouldered by the taxpayer.

Not all are the same - The Port Smith Caravan Park has a Broome aboriginal, named Mooly, working for them.
Hard working? - this guy never stops. Mooly’s always friendly and loves cracking a joke and is not particulary fond of the booze.

Now if you are looking for dignity this guy’s got mountains of it.
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Follow Up By: roberttbruce - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 11:58

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 11:58
those vehicles are tools, not status symbols, besides, they cost a lot less tax-dollars with the tax breaks those communities get...

Bidyadabga sounds like a gated community, pretty common in the urban australia...

and like Mooley, it sounds as tho' there are at least five blokes out there trying to excercise some responsibility...

so im not really sure of what points you were trying to make...
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 11:59

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 11:59
A bit of clarification.
Pt Smith is about 150ks south of Broome in Western Australia. Bidyadanga (the old La Grange Mission) is about 40ks south of Pt Smith and is the home of Karrijarri
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 12:16

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 12:16
Hi Roberttbruce.
Quote “so im not really sure of what points you were trying to make...”
Why don’t you ask someone, who understands English, to explain it to you?
Regards Dennis
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Follow Up By: Muntoo - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 13:23

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 13:23
Righto, before everyone jumps to conclusions and takes only one side of the story, lets just get the real facts straight. I will ask someone who works in that department and see what he says. If this fella is trying to control someone elses land he will be dealt with by the Traditional owners.

Did you manage to get a name of the fella?

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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 13:51

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 13:51
Get his name are you kidding?
If you want to verify whether this goes on or not you only have to talk to the owners of the Port Smith Caravan Park or Mooly. Its common knowledge and a problem that they acknowledge openly in a face to face situation.
I have no axe to grind and I haven't got the time or interest to go about proving this or that to a government department.
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Follow Up By: Muntoo - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 16:37

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 16:37
Hi Dennis, i spoke to someone in the know, and it seems that maybe the owners of Port Smith arent being very open to the truth. The land from Sandfire roadhouse to Thangoo station is actually all proven to be aboriginal land under native title, and there are areas all around the Port Smith caravan park that are classified as sacred sites and burial grounds. The park is actually working with the TOs to develop permits and regualtions to these areas to enable people to still enjoy the area but keep the culturally significant sites safe.

So i think the owners have actually given you a bum steer there mate. They know all about it and they are chosing to keep it quiet, which i think is very disrespectful and selfish. Those rangers you spoke of are actually trained, experienced and many qualified in many different areas to help manage and preserve the land, wildlife, sea life, and eco system. They may not have the rights to charge but they sure hold the rights and knowledge to pass on information that may assist the relevant authorities in laying charges.

The ranger program is an excellent program run and assisted by a few different agencies throughout the Kimberley. The benefits of these programs are huge to everyone not just the aboriginal people.
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 17:09

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 17:09
Hi Muntoo
It’s too vague – I’ve met original owners who say they own it all and we have all seen cases where sacred sites have been claimed only after someone has shown interest in developing it, a typical case is the claim that was made against old swan brewery site on the Swan River in Perth.

You spoke to someone in the know who says;
“The land from Sandfire roadhouse to Thangoo station is actually all proven to be aboriginal land under native title, and there are areas all around the Port Smith caravan park that are classified as sacred sites and burial grounds. Those rangers you spoke of may not have the rights to charge but they sure hold the rights and knowledge to pass on information that may assist the relevant authorities in laying charges.”

You would enhance the credibility of your source of information if you could tell me if these native titles were officially listed and recognised and where I could find the maps and a register of details showing whether they were exclusive or non exclusive use titles, the roads through them where the title has been extinguished etc. Typically recently a big area of the sea at the top of Cape York was recently recognised as non exclusive use native title.

I am not being factious about this and I would use this information to see that I do not to infringe on anyone’s rights.

Regards Dennis
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Follow Up By: Muntoo - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 18:18

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 18:18
I suppose the National Native Title Tribunal could help.

Here is a rough map Native title

Or maybe contact the Kimberley Land Council or DEC. Im sure the KLC would have everything you wanna know.
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Follow Up By: roberttbruce - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 18:28

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 18:28
Dennis, anywhere that isnt fenced is applicable to a almost automatic claim for native title .... and the claim doesnt have to be set in stone through the high-court to be valid...

i can't help but think that if you had taken a differant view and not challenged thier obvious authority, then maybe you might have been shown something worthwhile rather than fishing out of an inland waterway...
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 19:49

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 19:49
Bruce you're a goose.
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Follow Up By: roberttbruce - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 21:48

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 21:48
D, there is no Conflict with local aboriginals at Pt Smith - the conflict is with you...

you've been totally mis-informed, then ignorant, then inflamatory

that was just to get to the title of thread..lol...

you finally ended by being abusive and/or provocative

these days, what a laff attitudes like yours are....

stay at home next time will ya'...
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Follow Up By: Hooroo WA - Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 03:32

Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 03:32
By the way Rob,

Are you serious about this from your above thread?

"realise that - aboriginal litter is not trash, it is age-old tradition of marking out territory ...the more cans, the longer and scarier the rainbow-serpent is..."

There are some really long and scary Rainbow Serpents then. I didn't know they had export cans in the dream time. WAKE UP MATE
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Follow Up By: Honky - Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 09:32

Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 09:32
"ask yourself this - if they turned up in the easment next to your backyard and started fishing your goldfish pond how happy would you be"?...


I do not know how you would compare a 400sq mt block with a track of land the size of a national park.
Maybe it would be worthwhile to compare it to a farmer who has no rights at all over what they do.
There is no say in mining or ownership of what is under the land. It can be taken away from the farmer if the government sees fit.
Also the farmer has no rights over the rivers that run through their land.
Also they pay througth the nose for rates and goverment charges.
Have they got a right to insist that their family have jobs if a mine take over their land?

Show me how that is equal

Honky
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Reply By: Wilko - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 11:28

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 11:28
I am a defender of real aboriginals and there are many out there that are good,

We need to take the colour out of this situation.

They are commiting fraud and should be dealt with as such. There cannot be 2 sets of rules as that is (reverse) racism. Have a zero tolerance policy

We are one country and we should have one set of laws.

Cheers Wilko
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Follow Up By: roberttbruce - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 12:03

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 12:03
we don't know there was fraud... the situation is fraught with anecdote and there may well have been misunderstandings...

im sure the authorities would have obliged if warranted...
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Follow Up By: Hooroo WA - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 13:14

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 13:14
Robert Bruce,

You really don't have any idea do you? Its people with your attitude that fuel these situations and create such a divide.
What the guys are saying is we should all be equal. Money and handouts don't buy equality.
People such as yourselves attend public rallies in your Range Rovers, say how hard the aboriginals have it then return to your dental surgeries etc and don;t see the real problems occurring.
If Dennis wants to fish then he can fish. If someone wants to attend a beach he shouldn't be scammed or intimidated out of $5 to do so.
We pay our taxes and have every right to go where ever we want.
Its time hand outs were stopped and people made to earn things as we have done.
And no, beer doesn't buy dignity in these communities it only breeds crime and lawlessness.
Go for it Dennis, fish your heart out mate, where ever you want, when ever you want.

Cheers and Hooroo
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Follow Up By: goddosglory - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 14:04

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 14:04
just to add my 2 cents...we went for a drive to cape leveque last weekend...
having driven all the way on coorugated roads ...i was surprised to discover it cost $10.00 per head to enter the areas of interest...that was just for sight seeing..
worst of all i had left my wallet at home....long drive for nothing
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Follow Up By: roberttbruce - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 14:34

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 14:34
Hooroo WA, what century are you from I8)

these days one can't fish or go where one wants, never have really...
i dont own a rangerover nor am i a dentsit...
there is no such thing as equality...
just because we worked hard and payed our tax's doesnt mean we have the all encompassing rights...
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Follow Up By: Hooroo WA - Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 03:28

Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 03:28
Robert Bruce,

If you speak to any Aboriginal that really knows his heritage and lives as one with this country, he will tell you there is no such thing as 'A traditional owner of this land'
This is a label put on by the masses that jump on the band wagon to get even more hand outs without lifting a finger. It is a farce that is only accepted because we live in the PC age.
A real aboriginal who is not in it for money will tell you the aborigines were only 'caretakers of this land'
As for 'dignity' which you sprout about......Perhaps some of the massive royalties could go towards paying the government back for all the money wasted over the years.
I think it is great that we have such beautiful beaches etc but lets put it into perspective. I'm the one thats hardly done by, Id love someone to put a gas plant in my back yard and pay me billions to do nothing.
Your right though, as long as we have do gooders, we can never expect equality.
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Follow Up By: Muntoo - Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 15:04

Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 15:04
Hooroo, you obviously have a serious chip on your shoulder with aboriginal people, thats your problem. Dont take your problems out on here, keep your views to yourself and keep the thread within topic.
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Follow Up By: Hooroo WA - Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 15:31

Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 15:31
MUNTOO,

Read the last 20 replies and then tell me again what the topic of the thread is.
I dont have a chip on my shoulder, unlike you and Bobby brucey I am a realist.
I dont have any problems because I am happy with my knowledge, it is knowledge I have acquired not knowledge I have been told to have by newspapers, news reports etc.
By the way Einstein, you said "Keep you views to yourself" Then tell me, what is the definition of a forum? You might find it is a place for people to exchange views.
Just because someone makes you cry because they don't agree with you, thats your problem.
By the way, to you and every other person on this thread that claims to know how to solve the aboriginal problem........ I AM ABORIGINAL, I am a member of the Noongar people in SW WA. So please don't lecture me about dignity, royalties etc. I have dignity, I always have done and I always will. I am raising my children to know that EVERYONE in this world was created by god to co exist peacefully together. My biggest problem is keeping them away from Do Gooders who are trying to teach them otherwise.
Thank you
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Follow Up By: Muntoo - Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 19:36

Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 19:36
Well Horoo, each aboriginal group is different. What works for the Koori's wont work for the Yamatji, etc etc. There is no quick fix, nor one size fits all solution. If you are a true Noongar then i applaud you as being a role model and taking those steps to closing the gap between all Australians.

What gets me is the amount of money spent on aylum seekers, when i see people living in 3rd world conditions here. Some of these people are worthy of a chance and deserve a better life, but not all are true asylum seekers. Look after your own backyard before you help your neighbours.
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Reply By: Cruiser 2091 - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 13:22

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 13:22
If you and many others like you didn't have such a confrontational attitude you could have engaged in a conversation which may have taught you a lot about the people and their situation.

As far as litter goes many supposedly responsible caravaners are litterbugs as well.

And alcohol, there is hardly a post on this forun that doesn't refer to "keeping the beer cold" or "happy hour"

We should all take a look at ourselves before criticising others.
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 13:59

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 13:59
Cruiser
I didn't do the confronting.
Me and the Missus were minding our own business fishing.
We were approached and interrogated by the wannabee rangers.
Alcohol didn’t come into it as neither we or they were drinking
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 15:06

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 15:06
By the way - Mooly at the caravan park is a full blood, we got on like a house on fire but he had no time for the wannabee rangers either. Then again he'd got off his butt and was making something of his life.
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Follow Up By: Muntoo - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 16:48

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 16:48
Dennis, You have no right to pass judgement on these people, when you know little of what they are achieving and how they go about it. These rangers are doing something that is a great benefit to all you people who travel up here every year, and want it to stay the same way. What there doing is something that they are passionate about and that enables them to get back to country and look after it.

Its fools like you who dont deserve to enjoy this part of the country and what it holds. By the way i feel sorry for your mate Mooly, now that you have named him and his feelings towards the rangers for all to see, good mate you are. Couldnt imagine he'd be too happy to see that posted for all to see.
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Follow Up By: Member - Greg H (NT) - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 17:06

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 17:06
Are they rangers?

Greg
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 17:19

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 17:19
Muntoo,
It will be a sad day when I have to hide my identity from people such as you and Mooly is not likely to be worried about revenge from you either.
You show your mentality and vindictiveness for threatening people like Mooly .
What are you going to do spear him?
Get real.
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Follow Up By: Muntoo - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 18:28

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 18:28
Dennis, when did i threaten Mooly or yourself? Why would i seek revenge? What has he done wrong to me? Im just sharing the facts of the matter. You have stated something that Moly has said, and as an aboriginal person he could be punished for these actions from his people. He is a full blooded aboriginal, and he would also have passion for his country and his people, he would also become the enemy if the Kurajarri people found out what he was saying about them. You obviously dont understand the delicate nature of the aboriginal culture or there values.

The Kurajarri people are still pretty strong in there beliefs and still maintain a traditional lifestyle. Men still go through initiation and women too, and like much of the Kimberley they still practice their own law and witchcraft. Words such as yours, could indeed lead to tension between tribes, which could lead to a spearing or another form of punishment. Choose your words wisely when quoting aboriginal people, as you never know the repercussions. Its not always that person who is punished either, could be any member of his family, and it might not be straight away.
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 19:47

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 19:47
Hi Muntoo
You quoted “Choose your words wisely when quoting aboriginal people”
I never quoted Mooly - I made these two statements about Mooly

“Hard working? - this guy never stops. Mooly’s always friendly and loves cracking a joke and is not particulary fond of the booze”. “But he had no time for the wannabee rangers either.”

What sort of culture have you got if you are going to crucify a man because of my perception of him?

He didn’t say anything derogatory but what if he did – what happened to free speech – doesn’t it exist in your culture?

I have no time for witchcraft and bush justice that exists outside our legal sytem.
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Reply By: Honky - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 14:25

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 14:25
Reverse racism is rife in Australia and it is only going to get worse.
I see it every day with job applications, medical, licensing, legal services Crime and punishment (when is the last time you heard of a non aboriginal death in custody when statistics are the same number ) social benefits and government.

I can go on for ages in areas but that will be enought to start a debate by the champagne sipping city slickers.

Honky
AnswerID: 423253

Reply By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 15:17

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 15:17
Equality is a joke I was reliably told that the indigenous people get a bonding allowance for up to 6 ??? dogs in town and at camp of so much a week.

I went in to Centrelink and asked if all benefits were applied equally and got told "Yes they are".

I then said I have 4 dogs can I have my bonding money.

Was not terribly well received I must say.


I really dont care Just making a point.

Australia should be for Australians no matter what colour they are.

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Follow Up By: Chipsy - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 21:36

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 21:36
centrelink doesnt pay any allowances to anyone for the upkeep of dogs.

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Follow Up By: goddosglory - Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 12:41

Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 12:41
do you work for centrelink...my aboriginal friends tell me they do get an allowance
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Reply By: get outmore - Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 18:45

Tuesday, Jul 06, 2010 at 18:45
dont know if any of this info is relevent

maybe they wernt far off the mark?

karajarri land management program
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Follow Up By: Muntoo - Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 15:12

Wednesday, Jul 07, 2010 at 15:12
Precisely, the owners of the park know all about it mate, they have chosen to misinform Dennis about the the issue. To me that is very bad management and showing a lack of care. Under the duty of care to the visitors i find that pathetic. I think its needs to be dealt with before innocent people like Dennis are accused or confronted again for doing something that they had no idea could be disrespectful.
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