Bush Winch

Submitted: Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 21:09
ThreadID: 80538 Views:4075 Replies:4 FollowUps:19
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G’day All,
I’ve done a search and can’t see that this topic has been discussed before… though I’m sure it has. I would be interested in comments on the Bush Winch. I know the advantages of an electric and hand winch so don’t want to compare them…. Would just like comments on this winch.
Thanks,
Myles.
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 21:30

Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 21:30
Hi Myles
I haven't used this particular product , but have seen people try bush versions of the same system.

From an engineering point of view I think they are inherrently unstable and lack sufficent gearing and control to enable them to deliver a pull without a significant offset force being generated which would in many practical situations cause the vehicle to be pulled off line.

A normal winch pulls also pulls from a single point in front of car which tends to keep the car in line.

On my car I can pull the car backwards with my front mounted winch because the rope can be passed under the axles , and its true this can work if your careful, but you have a devil of a time keeping the pull direction aligned with where you wish to go.
Pulling from the rear with 2 different lines - wow , you'd have to be good and then one wheel overspins due to unequal forces.

I'd put it in the catergory of a hand winch - theoretically it can get you out of trouble but there are precious few situations in which practical experience has shown them to work.











Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Member - Myles F (QLD) - Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:10

Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:10
Robin,
Great comments…. Thanks.
I’m not sure I agree about it being inherently unstable as it simple gives drive to the rear (or front) wheels. Ideally the anchor points are at 20 degrees off set to the front of the car and you do get to steer it, more so than when using an electric winch. You can (apparently) use it on one wheel only. If you have it on two it really doesn’t matter if one cable goes slack. It would have a similar affect as a slipping diff as far as instability is concerned. Also by running one cable around the anchor point it stops the differential action… per this link Stops differential action. I’ve seen other wheel winches but this appears far superior though I’m not sure enough to buy it... just yet…. Maybe soon.
Regards,
Myles.
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Follow Up By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:33

Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:33
Hi Robin,
I also would have concerns about instability, although they should be capable of sufficient pulling power as the winch drum diameter is less than the tyre diameter and therefore will produce more torque and less travel for the same drive application. And therein lies an inherent problem..... if the driving wheels get a grip they will propel the vehicle forward at a greater rate than the drum will wind-on cable thus loosening the cable with possible uncoiling from the winch drum and tangling.

incidentally, with your winch cable under the axles and out the back technique, cold you not pass the cable through some fairlead arrangement at the rear to achieve an effective single point of tow?

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - Myles F (QLD) - Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:42

Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:42
Allan,
You’re quite right but the idea is that you winch yourself to a point where the vehicle has traction. Once traction is achieved the cable simply drops to the ground. I’ve been referring to it as a cable but it’s actually a rated rope (2000kg or 3200kg).
Myles.
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Follow Up By: Member - Myles F (QLD) - Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:46

Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:46
Further – I extracted this from their site.
"The Bush Rope Guide ensure that the winch rope spools onto the Bush Winch even when steering during winching operations or pulling from anchor points to the side of the vehicles path. The Rope Guide attaches to the same wheel nuts that the Bush Winch uses. They attach and detach just as easily and are carried in the Bush Winch kit bag. The Rope Guide also assists in bringing the vehicle into line if it is slipping sideways or you want to winch around a bend or an obstacle. As winching starts the lines pull tight and a component of the force helps bring the vehicle around. Like the Bush Winch the Rope Guide works at axle level and the lowest point of balance where it is most effective in bringing you out of a tricky situation."

Though, still not buying it just yet. LOL
Myles.
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Follow Up By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:55

Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:55
Myles, I was concerned with the situation where traction may be achieved for a short time and the vehicle would over-run the cable then if traction was again lost, as is likely in a boggy situation, then the wheel would spin and furl-in the cable in a perhaps uncontrolled manner.

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - Tony S (WA) - Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 01:03

Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 01:03
Myles,
These were being made 30 odd years ago by various people.
I made one myself to suite the short w/base Landy. Only used it once . It certainly got me out of trouble. Works to similar a capstan winch.
Think about it.

Tony
















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Follow Up By: Member - Myles F (QLD) - Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 06:34

Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 06:34
G’day Tony,
Yep, I think it’s a good idea that’s been around for a while. The problem has been deployment and this design seems quick and easy to use.
I haven’t required the use of a winch as yet…. Not for vehicle extraction any way. I have front and rear lockers and always carry Maxtrax which I’ve only required once for my own vehicle. I’ve been lucky so far. I do like remote destinations and usually travel only with my wife. I have progressed from a Micofast Tent to an off road camper and this winch seems to provide additional insurance for self recovery I’m looking for.
Regards,
Myles.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 08:52

Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 08:52
Hi Myles

Someone I knew made one (sort of) once and tried it , his was like a wheel centre cut out with rod to make a drum , but required wheels nuts to be undone and this bolted on over them and was a bit agricultural.
I have enough trouble finding one good winch tree and having sufficent rope these days let alone doubling up.
That massive price drop in electric winches has also made some otherwise potentially interesting products less viable also.

Allan - yes have made up a an "Eye" which can bolt onto rear towbar , hanging upside down out the bottom but hasn't been tested in anger yet , mainly because reverse winch rope can't run over diff which is in the centre of axle , not offset like they once used to be.
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Reply By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:20

Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:20
Hi Myles,

I raised this subject in Oct last year in Thread 72957 as "Wheel Mounted Winches". You may care to look at that thread. But I have no experience of such winches, and have decided that I do not want any experience! But some other contributors to that thread had experience.

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Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - Myles F (QLD) - Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:34

Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:34
Allan,
Thanks for that.
This is a great site but I do find the search facilities poor.
Regards,
Myles.
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Follow Up By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:50

Thursday, Aug 05, 2010 at 22:50
Myles, I found the referred thread by searching "bush winch" using the quote marks. Otherwise the search engine points to every thread with either the words bush or winch, which is a lot of threads!

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - John - Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 01:42

Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 01:42
Allan, thanks for the search tip, have wondered how to get better results. Cheers. John
John

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Follow Up By: ModSquad - Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 07:49

Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 07:49
Another hint to assist in searching is to check the Articles on the said subject and see the linked forum threads for that subject.

The Winches Article has approximately 50 related threads linked to it (located at the bottom of Article showing the 5 latest ones with option to view all) and several are Bush Winch related.

Hope that assists some people in their search efforts.

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The ModSquad
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Follow Up By: Lex M (Brisbane) - Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 10:53

Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 10:53
At the top of the forum page in the search options box there is a HELP button.

Reveals all.
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Reply By: Gnomey - Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 11:51

Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 11:51
G'day Folks
Not wanting to be burnt at the stake as a believer and I freely confess to having less winch recovery experience than other posters but this concept intrigued me when I heard about it yonks ago and it still does. So here's a couple or further thoughts.

As I understand it the two main bases of doubt are directional instability and overrunning/tangling the rope due to intermittent traction.

it's worth considering that this product is designed to pull simultaneously from two opposing wheels and not just one as in previous times.To my mind that would militate against being pulled "off line".

Yes, I can see the potential problem with intermittent traction but I'm also thinking that this type of recovery would be a *very* low speed operation just like other winching so I wouldn't expect lots of overrun to occur suddenly and at an unmanageable pace.

And to balance the discussion a bit, let's bear in mind the some of the obvious virtues of the system eg, less moving parts to maintain or seize, power source and its robustness etc and compare with the known vices of the electric winch.

I've never seen a vehicle pulled out backwards by its own front mounted winch. If you guys say it can be done I defer to your experience but I would still have some concerns about increased rope load at the lower surface of the fairlead with the rope almost doubled back on itself.

Cheers
Mark

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Reply By: Crackles - Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 13:03

Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 13:03
I'm going to call a spade a spade & suggest this would be one of the worst winch options available.
-The rope is vastly underrated for it's intended use.
-6 tonne is a huge pull on the steering & suspension components particularly when the wheels are turned to the side. (You would never ever consider recovering a car by tieing a strap to the axle)
-Intermittent traction would see the rope over run. The rope hub is always travelling 4 or 5 times slower than the tyre.
-Finding a tree or anchor point in a suitable direction would be rare.
-Recovering someone else is impossible.
-Fitting the hubs to a vehicle submerged in mud or water would be PITA.
-Recovery would be very time consuming.
-When winching with both drums, keeping even tension on the ropes would be impossible leading to one 3 tonne rope taking the full strain.
The reason you don't see these winches ever used other than on the internet is pretty obvious.
Cheers Craig.............
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Follow Up By: Plasnart - Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 22:28

Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 22:28
Market sales dirctly reflect the worth of winches. How many hub winches (or hydraulic or PTO winches) are sold compared to electric these days?

Save yourself the grief and go with what is so obviously the most efficient and effective winching system available today and don't base your decision solely on what is put forward by the manufacturer/retailer (ie: advertising).

Sure, all types of winches have their pros and cons, but some have more cons than pros.

PS: contrary to an earlier opinion, IMHO hand winches easily the most versatile and effective winch available on the market. They can and will pull a vehicle out of virtually every stranded situation known in 4x4ing. However the time and effort required for this method relegates them to a backup system only these days.
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Follow Up By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 22:44

Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 22:44
Hi Plasnart, I really must agree with what you say, however just maybe some of the reason for high sales of electric winches is that the hub-winch stowed away in the back of the 4X4 simply cannot compete with the egotistical value of an electric winch prominently displayed on the front bumper. LOL

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Plasnart - Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 23:00

Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 23:00
G'day Allan. I'm sure there's a lot of people out there wearing an electric winch who wouldn't even know how to use it! So I agree somewhat with your comment. However as a backup I would much rather (and do) carry a hand winch in the back rather than hub winches.
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Follow Up By: Plasnart - Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 23:07

Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 23:07
Sorry Myles, I have just realised we have deviated from your wish not to compare the Bush Winch against other types of winches.

I can't offer you any first-hand advice about the Bush Winch as I've never used one (and not likely to use one either).
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Follow Up By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 23:09

Saturday, Aug 07, 2010 at 23:09
Well, tempted as I have been, I carry neither. I have decided to wait until I have become irretrievably bogged before I adopt one......... and then carry it around unused for the next umpteen years!!!! LOl

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Sunday, Aug 08, 2010 at 15:19

Sunday, Aug 08, 2010 at 15:19
Hi Craig, Well yes, without a winch you probably would be calling for a spade. lol

I think that some of your points are probably valid but the one about towing from the axle seems wrong. When towing a bogged vehicle from the axle, the tow force is carried only through the axle housing and bearings to the wheels. This is exactly the same as if the engine were providing the only power through the transmission to the wheels. Whereas if you tow from the chassis then the tow force to free the wheels must be transmitted through the suspension to the wheels.

In a normal driving situation, all the energy to propel the chassis, body and contents load is being transferred from the wheels through the suspension. The wheels are being propelled along the track and all the rest is being dragged along with the wheels via the suspension.

Cheers
Allan

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