Tax Accountants

Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 13:02
ThreadID: 8122 Views:1488 Replies:10 FollowUps:29
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I know this has nothng to do with exploring oz, but it may help us to get to explore oz more often if we can get ahead fnancially. We have a tax accountant who has been practising for 40 odd years. Now, as we are in partnership business we seem to be battling on for the last few years, living frugally and not getting anywhere. Are the recent graduated accountants more "with it" as for knowing what is able to help the struggling taxpayer? Or is there a website with some free financial advice? By the way, it is Geoff's birthday today and I am trying to be a good wife and help him cut down on his work load just to pay for the "need tos" as we need some "want tos" in our life . Jen
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Reply By: Member - Glenn(VIC) - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 13:27

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 13:27
Can't help with the accounting, but happy birthday Geoff!Just Do It!

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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff & Jen - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 22:31

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 22:31
Thanks Glenn, still celebrating. Geoff
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Reply By: Member - Des Lexik(SA) - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 13:54

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 13:54
Same for me but Happy Birthday Geoff.
Next year, can you let Wombat know as he's the unofficial EO Birthday Fairyne cede malis
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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff & Jen - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 22:36

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 22:36
Wombat should be in his burrow on his laptop taking notes of all EO birthdays, or is he out on fairy business, gate crashing EO parties.
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Reply By: Member - Melissa - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 14:20

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 14:20
Hi Jen,

As a financial/project accountant married to a tax accountant, perhaps I can answer your question. Firstly, as in every profession there are good and bad accountants. You need to find a good one. Secondly, don't discount experience...a good experienced accountant will be far more knowledgable than a recent graduate. Thirdly, the field of tax has NEVER been more complicated (despite talk of a "simplified tax system"...what a joke!) and accountants are constantly having to undertake training. Some points of tax legislation are so difficult to interpret that you can talk to several different ATO employees and get a different answer each time (no, I'm not kidding). You should be using the services of Chartered Accountants or CPA's as distinct from some from some firms who are just registered Tax Agents specialising in completing bulk numbers of individual and small business tax returns. In general, these latter type of firms do not provide ongoing business advice or tax planning. Basic rule is you get what you pay for.

You don't say whether your problem is with tax or whether what you really need is some good sound financial advice with regards to how you run your business in general. Either way, you should start by having a good talk to your existing accountant. If you're not satisfied with the response, find another one. Also have you spoken with your local Small Business Development Corp. office. Their services are generally free and are a great place to start if you are looking for general business advice.

Hope this helps.

:o) MelissaPetrol 4.5L GU Patrol &
Camprite TL8 offroad camper
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Follow Up By: Tony - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 14:46

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 14:46
Sound advice Melissa, my wife is a tax accountant with a large Aus wide firm, and is always doing upgrades just to keep up with the simplified tax rules, put your accountant on the line and if he does not match up get one that does.
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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff & Jen - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 22:52

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 22:52
Melissa, thanks for replying, Geoff says our tax is not a major problem but the thing is we have not many deductions in the business we are in and yet we have a good income. So, maybe we need to know the questions to ask our accountant to make it a bit easier for us. What hit us hard, was we had to mortage a percentage of our owned home to pay provisional tax just before GST came in, and we are finding it hard to surface again. As you suggested, maybe we need some sound financial advice on how to run this business, but who from. We went to a financial advisor and he told us to borrow money and buy into shares. That is the last thing we wanted to do, is to get into more debt, especially into a gambling situation. So we haven't been back to one since. Jen
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Follow Up By: John - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 23:16

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 23:16
Hi Geoff & Jen
Bottom line is you are in business to make money, the fact that you pay tax is the consequence of making money, being profitable.
So you seem to have acheived what you set out to do, make money.

It sounds like your problem is not so much making money as much as managing your cash flow to ensure you have sufficient cash on hand to pay your tax liability when it comes due.
This is a hard situation for most small businesses it takes a hell of a lot of discipline to not spend it.
Zappers reply further down the thread is just about spot on.
Although it is my view (Formed after 21 years running a small business) is that a good accountant will help you with advice on your structure etc it is still up to you to manage it on a day to day basis and make it happen.

I wish you luck and don't feel that you are on your own as most small business in this country are struggling on a day to day basis to cope with all aspects of managment and compliance.

Kind Regards
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Follow Up By: Big Red - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 10:21

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 10:21
What and where is what appears to be a bridge?
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Follow Up By: Member - Melissa - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 11:35

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 11:35
Hi Jen,

Don't confuse a financial advisor with an accountant. Although there is some overlap, both fields are quite different. Sounds like you need some good business/financial planning/cash management advice to get you on track. It is often the case with small owner operated businesses - the owners know their business (eg. building) but things like management & marketing etc are a whole different ball game and like anything, it takes time to learn. But don't despair...what seems tricky now will eventually become old hat. At the risk of repeating myself, talk to your accountant. Tell him/her what your concerns are and ask them straight out what they can do to help. At the very least they should be able to point you towards a good business consultant or similar. If you aren't happy with the response, go find another accountant and feel free to "interview" them about what they can do for you before you make the final decision to transfer your business to them.

:o) MelissaPetrol 4.5L GU Patrol &
Camprite TL8 offroad camper
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Follow Up By: Member - Melissa - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 12:23

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 12:23
Big Red,

I'm having visions of you sitting in front of your PC for the last few weeks scratching your head about the bridge...must be driving you crazy!!! The bridge (post: 7706) was shown as My Rig photo. I changed it for the purposes of that particular post. For some reason not everyone was seeing the changed photo. For instance, on my home PC I saw the bridge, at work it was the original 4WD/trailer pic. ExplorOz David suggested doing a Control/Refresh which solved the problem at work. Anyway, just to confuse the issue even more, I now see that my original 4WD/trailer pic is showing again even though I never got around to changing it back from the bridge pic. Confused...yes so am I. Just chalk it up to one of those mysterious computer gremlin thingies that strike occasionally, LOL.

:o) MelissaPetrol 4.5L GU Patrol &
Camprite TL8 offroad camper
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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff & Jen - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 13:15

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 13:15
Thanks for your help Melissa, We seem to have been made aware of many avenues we can take that we were not aware of, through this question. We are with a chartered accountant and will talk to him when we take our books in to him, about this restructing of our business. As we are not big spenders, actually we live a very frugal life. Although with living in the country, we do spend more on fuel and other things city people do not have, such as feeding animals through this drought etc, pumps breaking down,plus, plus. Home is not part of the business so these things are not deductable. Then again this is our life and we do not spend on social issues, the only thing we smoke is the barby in the back yard with a few friends and let the kids run wild with the animals.:>) So Ithink we are living within our means and not greedy. I agree with one of your earlier replys about the "surplus tax" it should be put into health etc. We pay private health cover and yet we don't seem to be better off than the bloke who hasn't. Jen
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Reply By: ExplorOz Team - David - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 14:44

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 14:44
My accountant said it all - "This year we are the highest taxed people in Australia's history". I know what you mean about the struggling taxpayer, we are in the same boat - heaps of hard work and no gain. I reckon the Tax Dept sgould pay us more for being their GST bloody agents. Then we are being hit with mounting provision taxes and the like. It always seems to make the accounts go backwards. Then as for the Gov having a huge surplus from over taxing us - Give it back you bastards.

Anyway we keep struggling on I guess - what else can we do. (Should not ask that I know of thousands of things I would rather do).Regards
ExplorOz Team - David
Always working, not enough travelling ;-)
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Follow Up By: Member - Bob - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 15:16

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 15:16
We have thousands of very well paid public servants and politicians to support. Not to mention just under half of all adult Tasmanians receiving some sort of welfare payment. We wouldn't have these things if we didn't all pay so much tax - so don't complain. Just smile as half of everything you earn is taken as you earn it, and then another ten per cent (at least) is taken as you spend it. And stamp duty on houses cars etc :-(Bob
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Follow Up By: ramp - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 16:24

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 16:24
well said bob, but you forgot the 4th generation dolies in south western sydney and migrants that arrive and first stop before accomodation is the CES.
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Follow Up By: GOB member vic - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 21:42

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 21:42
david i dont no what your grumbling about even as an unpaid tax collector little johnny allows us to get the interest on our gst for 3 months lol yeah

and then taxes us on that to. put the money under the bed
pack of mongrels just sold what was family home for 15 years rented to daughter and her kids at nominal rent for 3 years now have to pay capital gains tax because its not our princple residence

i will stop now or my whingeing will fill the forum .but you must admit we stupid enough to keep voting them in

steve imagine a 03 gu 4.2tdin the picture
as i am having trouble sizing the picture
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Follow Up By: GOB member vic - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 21:43

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 21:43
sorry happy birth day geoff
steveimagine a 03 gu 4.2tdin the picture
as i am having trouble sizing the picture
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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff & Jen - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 23:01

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 23:01
I think your accountant was right, but doesn't make you mad when you see who is benefiting from our hard earned tax dollars. Yeh, the scum of the earth!! Wouldn't you think workers should get tax free fuel to enable more relaxation and in return perform better in the workplace. haha. After all, we tend to be the minority. Jen
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Follow Up By: Member - Melissa - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 11:50

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 11:50
Unfortunately it's middle income Australians who pay the majority of the tax in this country. And if you are in this bracket, you're also in the bracket that receives stuff all in assistance with child care (even though we have to pay for it in order to go out and earn our income which is taxed to the whazzo), no family tax assistance, in fact stuff all. Don't get me wrong...I believe strongly in paying your own way and trying to make a contribution to society rather than being a burden (although I fully understand that we need a welfare system as a safety net it shouldn't be treated as a right). But what really, really gets up my nose is that we aren't even entitled to a piddly tax deduction for supporting a dependent child. If we were low income earners, we'd be entitled to some tax relief, but no, despite that we pay $$$ in tax, we don't get any. Personally, I don't give a damn how much you earn...if you are supporting a dependent you should be entitled to the same deduction as anyone else. We still feed, clothe, shelter our kid(s) the same as the next person. Frankly, I think this borders on discrimination!!!

:o) Melissa Petrol 4.5L GU Patrol &
Camprite TL8 offroad camper
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Follow Up By: Member - Melissa - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 11:59

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 11:59

Absolutely 500% agree about the surplus. It's completely and utterly unethical of this govt. to collect more taxes from the people than is required to run the country. Either give it back to the rightful owners (ie. the taxpayers) or spend it where its needed like on health or education!!!

:o) MelissaPetrol 4.5L GU Patrol &
Camprite TL8 offroad camper
FollowupID: 25564

Follow Up By: Andrew - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 12:24

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 12:24
The surplus doesn't worry me to much as long as they don't waste it. It will be given back soon as a pre-election sweetener. What really cheeses me off is the Parliamentary Superannuation scheme that is sickeningly generous. No-one else in the country even comes close to what they get. I see that it is going to on A Current Affair tonight on 9 - your the one!
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Reply By: diamond(bendigo) - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 19:24

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 19:24
gday geoff &jenn.
first off happy birthday geoff.
now i cant help with question but the bit about trying to get ahead a little bit so as to exploroz got me thinking .
actually im here to
i got really anoyed today at work with this young guy who came in to get a full suspention job done on his commodore lowered/new shocks struts ect.
also a few other things for his roadworthy.
total of job was around $1400 so he pays me in cash.
we get to talking about things and how its good to save a bit and do the things want like his car and how hard it is to save while working and kids ect.
he turns around and says no mate i dont work never have done a couple of cashys and the dole thats all i need to do.
so dosnt it give you the bleep es when we work our butts off.
save half the year so we can have a week or two away.
and back to work again ect ect ect.
well thats my whinge lol
back by popular demand
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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff & Jen - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 23:08

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 23:08
Yeh diamond we know what you mean. We had a young pensioner come in wanting a house or should I say mansion plan drawn and then asks for pensioner discount. Then says he is owner building. If he can build a house maybe he could work someplace and go off the pension. I don't want to sound mean here, but he was not a vegetable. Jen
PS Geoff is still having a happy birthday
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Follow Up By: Glenos - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 19:15

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 19:15
Let the gestapo know his name and address. You can do it anonymously and at least he might get hassled a bit for his dole money.

I can't stand people who rort the system, I have four kids and work bloody hard to keep our head above water. I admit we get a fair bit of "benefit" family allowance, but really it just compensates the tax I pay and means that my wife can stay at home and look after the kids. They are all under 5 yo just to freak everyone out!

Wombat, our birthdays are:
Glen 21/4
Sal 25/7
Regan 9/2/99
Kate 12/2/01
Liam 9/10/02
Michael 5/10/03

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Reply By: KG - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 19:53

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 19:53
try getting an accountant to do your tax around july / august...
Last August I rang 3 CPA registered Accountants (from the phone book)...
All 3 of them said.... "and who referred you?"
when i replied "the yellow pages" all 3 of them said...
"sorry we're so busy at this time of year we don't take any new clients unless they are referred to us"
there seems to be an undersupply... which is great for the accountants (more demand = more $$), but pretty sh|thouse for joe public who just wants his tax done.
when you analyse it, it's a crazy system.... the entire country lodging returns at the same time! what does an accounting firm do with the staff for the other 9-10 months of the year? business and day to day accounting only generate so much revenue. result - not enough accountants at tax time.
these days i wait until november before getting my tax done (and if you're lucky you get your refund just before xmas)



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Follow Up By: Member - Melissa - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 12:07

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 12:07

You're right...there is a shortage of accountants. The reason - the "simplified" tax system has become so complicated, many accountants finding it too stressful to keep up with it so they're leaving the field altogether. In my husbands firm a couple have left recently to pursue careers outside accounting despite less money! And his boss is having a hard time replacing them. I personally have rec'd a couple of lucrative offers to go into tax accounting but I reckon I'm not that stupid, LOL.

:o) MelissaPetrol 4.5L GU Patrol &
Camprite TL8 offroad camper
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Reply By: Andrew - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 19:58

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 19:58
LOL - the question of taxation never fails to fire us up. It is the universal question really. How can I get a few more dollars so that I can live my dream....? It's everything to do with explor oz really. One of the things that has impressed me about 4wding is that you can do it really cheap or if you are one of the lucky ones on mega $$, like Truckster, and have just as good a time as the next bloke.

Clearly there is some concern that you could be doing better accounting wise. I think that for business people, the more tax you are paying, the more options you would have for structuring your business. I went down this road some time ago and sought the advice of a different accountant. He suggested restructuring the business to save on tax. My accounting fees went up so I now have a bigger tax return.... Ahhh. But the new accountant helped me set up a great structure that is much more tax effective, a family trust, self managed super scheme. It has been worth it many times over. Only problem is I am now spending more...... and am back to where I started!! Isn't that some law of economics - that spending always increases to match income. (Like work always expands to fill the time is another law).

I would recommend that when you get to the point of asking the question about your accountant, it is time to talk structure with two or three accountants and find out what suits you. It has saved me lots of $ and helped me with a long term financial plan. Ask around with other business people in your industry for recommendations about an accountant - be upfront and ask for their advice as a potential client - I got that advice for free and then chose to switch later. Better to do that rather than to sit where you are and be uncertain of your current structure.


PS. Only joking about Truckster - he is really a modern day Robin Hood.

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Follow Up By: Andrew - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 19:59

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 19:59
..............and most importantly. Happy Birthday 2 U.
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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff & Jen - Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 at 21:00

Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 at 21:00
Andrew, I thought I would answer through this thread, your question on ING investments. I have subscribed to htttp:// this is for the fundamentals in saving etc. If you find you have to be a member to get into talking investments, try "ING Direct" in your search engine. Also did you notice the information moose gave us in the reply further down for "Count Investments". I had a good talk to them and they are extremely helpful. Let me know if you cannot get through and I will log in to "simple savings" and get the correct address for you. Jen
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Reply By: Zapper - Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 22:06

Monday, Oct 27, 2003 at 22:06

I am an accountant primarily tax have been for ten years, I work in a public practice. To answer your question about new graduates having better ideas about tax deductions etc etc the answer is definitely no, we don’t let new guys do much more than bank reconciliations for the first year and would certainly not let them offer tax advice to business clients for several years without consulting a more senior member. Your current account with 40 years behind him may be a little old but to work full time in public practice it is not really possible to be “out of date” there is such a large volume of reading and seminars etc that we all do and go to that you are constantly updated. You wouldn’t be able to do the work without doing them. Having said that it doesn’t mean that he is good at his job and you may get a better service elsewhere.

Definitely use a CPA or Chartered accountant. Avoid the large firms as they will slaughter you with their bills and don’t use the nationwide individual return preparers like ITP and H&R Block for your business return.

The structure of your business is particularly important and there are many different consequences of using different structures particularly when you take into consideration the capital gains tax aspect. Have a meeting with your current accountant, express your thoughts and see what he comes up with. Speak to a financial adviser but any tax advice he may give you check with your accountant also as from my experience they are often wrong. Finally remember this, we all have to pay tax - its law. Next time you are at the pub and someone is telling you they don’t pay any tax there is two explanations, 1) they are cheating and don’t declare all their income or 2) they don’t make any money....
Hope this helps
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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff & Jen - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 12:30

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 12:30
We are just so very thankful for the input we have had with all the replys to this question. We tended to sit back and trust all without questioning, but now we see time is getting away on us and we are no further ahead after most of our kids are married and live their own life. We are definently not griping about paying tax or the amount. Where we need help is with someone who can set us down a plan as we get paid in large amounts about 8 - 10 weeks or after a completion of a job. Then again we have been out of work up to 4 months and lived on what we had, which wasn't much, as being in a partnership business we were told we cannot get any govt. assist unless we had deregistered our business. This is where it gets messy with the bills, repayments and tax still coming in. This is the reason we need someone who understands our plight at times and can get us on the right track as far as restructuing our business where we may have tax deductions where we haven't had many. So we will do as you say and see our current accountant and ask a lot of questions. Thanks Jen
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Reply By: Andrew - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 10:36

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 10:36
Agree with above. In a Partnership there are many possible structures. You should make sure that you get advice from several CPA's regarding the structure and then choose what you feel is best for you. Obviously the current accountant is going to think that what he has recommended is best to stay with but it may not be the best option. The financial planner (who I think are a joke most of the time) comes after you have got the structure right. The investments have to fit the structure. If you can save $5000 a year in tax, it is like a $10000 per year pay rise and can give you a great holiday every year.
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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff & Jen - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 12:50

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 12:50
Thanks Andrew, We hadn't heard of this word "structure" in business before and now we know where to start, and will look into interviewing a few CPA's. As I said in one of the last replys a financial planner tried to get us into shares by borrowing money, thinking he was helping us,we were shocked at such a suggestion. We believe if you want shares use money you do not rely on or need. So thats where our investments will fit our business structure. We need the structure first and get rid of any debt , (as you can see I HATE debt) and then think investments. We are looking forward to a real holiday without the stress of rushing back to work to pay bills etc. Jen
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Follow Up By: Andrew - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 23:01

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 23:01
I am happy to have debt but only if it is good debt. I would recommend that you read a book by Jan Somers (see who writes on property investment. I am not advocating this approach for you but it is a beautifully simple method of investing without big risk and without having to pay advisers money(yuk). It is also a fantastic way to understand how debt can be a helpful thing in wealth creation. And best of all, she is only trying to sell a book - not properties so she can't rip you off. You can even borrow the books from libraries for free. You can't imagine how little owning an investment property costs until you read the book and understand the figures. And it is easy reading. It certainly opened a new paradigm for me. (Whoops I am sounding like I am a ...... don't know the word .... a disciple or something).
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Reply By: Moose - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 13:19

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 13:19
Firstly happy birthday for the other day Geoff.
As to your problem I suggest you go to and click on "find an adviser" then follow your nose. All members of Count are qualified accountants and are "experts" (if there is such a thing) in both accounting and financial planning. You will not go wrong with a Count member. Depending on where you live you should have a choice of a few.
AnswerID: 35390

Follow Up By: Member - Geoff & Jen - Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 13:31

Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 at 13:31
Thanks Moose, You sound like you have had a good experience, so we will check them out, as you see by our thread we do need some planning in our life if we want to day. By the way, Geoff is back at work today, and he did have a happy birthday. I with my frugal thoughts, bought him a romantic gift..............a shower base, as we need to renovate our bathroom, or should I say finish it, after 15 years. hopefully before christmas. Jen
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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff & Jen - Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 at 09:24

Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 at 09:24
Thanks Andrew, we will try and get rid of these bad debts first and then like you, if the debt is paying itself off in the field of investment I feel we can call it good and maybe profit. Will try and get that book today from the city library. At last we can see some light at the end of the tunnel with the great help we have received. I have subscribed to a website which helps with saving and one person shares how they saved $30,000 in a year just on recontructing their life. On their forum there is a lot said of the ING banking system as they do not have any banking fees, which would help in our business. Jen
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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff & Jen - Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 at 17:53

Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 at 17:53
Moose, we have found a Count financial advisor about 2 hours from here. He is excellent and very willing to help us as we spoke over the phone. He fully understands every avenue of our problem and says he will restore our financial situation simply. So far we are extremely happy and will go and see him after we have had our tax done for this year. Thanks heaps for refering us to them. Jen
FollowupID: 25729

Follow Up By: Moose - Thursday, Oct 30, 2003 at 09:25

Thursday, Oct 30, 2003 at 09:25
No worries. I hope everything works out well for you.
FollowupID: 25764

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