Should I remove Canning Stock Routre photos from Google Earth?

Agree with Dave (somewhat reluctantly) but after many years in the NT and dealings with communities and elders, particularly the oldies, etc, I would remove them.

You could pass them on the selected people who would respect the info and source, but keep them out of the VERY public domain of google.

Without being judgmental, which is not my style, nor do I play "the person" this is one of the reasons we are losing access to many areas in Oz.

I believe you have done the right thing by floating the subject though, so congratulations.

Well said Barry!

Cheers

Brian

Seems to be two threads on this, but I agree with the above comments, which is not quite what I said on the other thread but what I was thinking. (if that makes sense)

Hi to all,
We agree with Brian & howsey.
From past experience, I was spoken to by an Ab. P.O.
I was treated quite rudely by this person even though I'd done all the correct things.
I complained to the Minister for Aboriginal affairs W.A. The reply said that these Ab. P. O's are not employed by the government but by the community.
This bloke must've just got his hat & badge and a big ego because he truly went overboard.
I told him so, in a pleasant way & he apologised in the end.
The name Peter rings a bell !
In general, the true Elders of the community are very willing to have a chat it's some of these do gooders who cause the angst.
We don't stop the Aboriginal people going into our churches but be it white or black it's the ones who damage the place who stuff it up for all. There are the good & the bad in all.
This generation has given them their land back. If it had of been a tribal war that wouldn't have happened. They do ask you not to take photos! so I'd take off the paintings and the waterholes, but see if you can organise a chat with one of the Elders or the place that issues Permits for that area to make sure that the person who asked you to take them off isn't just one of these Do Gooders causing angst.Australia is also ours but we think a lot more of this is going to happen.
Take care, safe travels. Ma

A good analogy Phil.
Wife and I traveled the Canning in '08 and there were signs of 'no entry' at the turn off to Killagurra Spring. As I recall my permit had words to that effect. Whilst camped at Durba many were going back to enter that area. As much as I would like to have had a look I felt I was morally obligated not to, so I did not. Speaking to travellers of the Canning since and when asked if I had gone into Killagurra I've stuck to my guns and given them a bit of a serve for reasons you mention.
Having travelled in other parts of the world where in the past the brits and the Germans have plundered rich religous sites and removed them to thier own countries and now there is nothing left but stones and sand.
In no way am I saying that Killagurra is being plundered but we have something very special here so lets keep it that way and show the utmost respect.

Defiantly no signs saying No Entry at the turn off or the entrance to the gorge in July 08. No Entry signs were on the other side of Durba Hills stopping me from heading east.

I also have aboriginal friends and I respect their culture. But we don't seem to know whats right or wrong until after the fact. The goal posts seem to move some of the time. Respect is a two way street.

Agree with you get outmore - we could not take photos when they were painted and it would seem to me that the original artist wanted to leave a message. The only way for that message to be spread is if someone has a look and passes the message on.

That is exactly what is being done here!

Wake up all you sympathisers and get off the political correctness bandwagon.

Regards
Paul H

Hi Paul,

Its nothing to do with Political correctness. Its about doing the right thing and about keeping tracks open.

Re "... it would seem to me that the original artist wanted to leave a message" We aren't talking about an art gallery here we are talking about a mens ceremonial ground a highly significant one at that.

If they close more tracks I guess you'll be the first to complain about that too!

Phil

Hi Phil

I thought this thread was about photographs of 'sacred grounds' and 'rock paintings' and whether or not they should be removed from public view on Google Earth. I don't recall anything about keeping tracks open.

If areas such as these 'are not' considered art galleries then I'm not here. If these places had not been visited by others, who told us about them, then we would not know about them, thank heaven someone had the good sense to tell us.

Closing tracks is another topic but if I want to go there I can walk, and I do, to take photographs of where I have been.

Regards
Paul H

Hi Paul

Yes it is about scared grounds etc but if we don't show respect for their wishes they will close access to more parts of the CSR and other areas. This is exactly what happened with access to the Calvert Range and more recently ie 30/6/10 to the Carnarvon range.

A few people showed disregard at the Calvert Range argued with one of the rangers/elders (not sure which) that happened to be there and went ahead taking photos etc. A few months later access to the whole of the Calvert range is denied. Sadly we can't separate one from the other i.e. viewing photographing sacred ground versus track closures.

We may not like it but under native title they 'own' the land and can deny access. A few transgressors stuff it up for the majority who do the right thing.

If more closures occur on say the CSR it won’t be worth doing the CSR trip because the 'best' bits will be off limits.

cheers
Phil

I'm sure they were not concerned with Google Earth when they were painted. :)

Andrew

Ok, I will respect the wishes of one of the oldest Martu women.
I will remove all of the photos of paintings except one.
The one I am leaving is very old and faint.
It is that faint I wasn't even sure that this was a painting until I hit it with the camera flash.
I was amazed at how the camera flash brought up the detail of this painting when photographed.
I am very happy that your wife's mother approves of the general area photos.
I am also happy to remove the remaining painting photo at your request.
Thank You very much for your post.

Hi Pyroyd

I have explained your response, through my wife, to my mother-in-law (I am not allowed to talk to or look at her). She is pleased with what you have decided. If you get any flack please feel free to message me and I will contact our nephews in Kunawaritji (Well 33) and have them relay a message that it was on my wifes mother word that you took the action.

The old lady is the 80 year Nangala skin woman in Mulan, tribal people will immediately oknow who that is.

Cheers

I posted the Followup to Reply 13 before I read this one.
I'm glad everyone is happy.
Still would be nice to know some of the Aboriginal history, stories or significance of Killagarra.

Cheers!

Thanks for putting the photos up. I doubt I will ever see them in real life and would be a loss to hide them away.

There were no signs saying "No Entry".
Killagurra is water 17 on the Canning.
And yes, all of the drovers were speared and killed on the first cattle drove down the Canning.
I doubt that they were speared for just being there as Alfred Canning had to face a Royal Commission because of his alleged his bad treatment of Aboriginals.
Are we not allowed to travel the entire Canning Stock Route today?
Including water 17.
After reading Reply 9, I removed most photos of the paintings.
I think the general area photos should stay.
I am very happy that the elderly Martu women says the general area photos are ok.
Thank you to everyone for your posts.

So what you are saying is that there are unidentified areas in remote areas of Australia where I am likely to be speared in the leg for just being there?
I will make sure I'm armed next time I go for a walk in remote areas of Australia.

Your comments do wonders for what our government calls Reconciliation.
I thought that you might have been happy that I removed the photos of paintings.

My understanding is that I may enter any native title land in the company of an Aboriginal from any part of Australia. I understand that according to your tribal law, if an Aboriginal from another area entered a "law ground" or sacred site they would be speared, yet today any Australian Aboriginal may enter any native title land but I may not because I am white fella? I think these tribal laws are outdated and obsolete.

These tribal laws may have worked 100 years ago when Aboriginals lived on the land in a tribal way as they did for thousands of years but today they do not. They live mostly in communities and ofter no where near these sacred sites. If they didn't have vehicles they would probably never go there.

Aboriginals used to live in Killagurra Gorge, some were born there and some died they did not just go there for special ceremonies or occasions. They do not live there anymore so why is this place sacred? Do you think white fella will wreck the paintings?

It would be nice if someone explained the meaning or stories of any these paintings or is that sacred knowledge.

Hi Pyroyd

No that is not what I am saying at all. Another person posted that spearing "used" to happen, I was explaining that it still happens, but I have never heard of a white person travelling being hurt in such a way.

You are correct, an Aboriginal from another area is the person who would be appropriately punished. To answer your query, the areas are sacred because of burial places for skeletal remains, where previous British and European expeditions removed bones for "scientific research", though I will never understand that.

I will ask my wife to find out from her mother what can and can't be explained, and the old lady is extremely happy that you removed the paintings. I do not personally know the meanmings of the painting, nor would I pretend to, but I will endeavour to find out what I can explain.

Incidentally, where we live is a Native Title area, and heaps of white people come here to look at the lake and the birdlife, and they are welcomed with open arms. We even go and get firewood for them as required, and leave a tank of fresh water at the camping grounds for them.

Perhaps a good thopught if for people toi find out where trhe elders for an area are, sit down and have a cuppa with them, and find out the history, they will always ne happy to talk with someone who approaches them face to face, and give respect for respect given, that applies for any race.

Cheers

Please accept that some people still live on their traditional lands, and welcome people in, and make sure it is explained that for specific reasons some areas cannot be entered