Another 12V charging question - with a twist!
Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 13:24
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Member - Captain (WA)
I have already spent a small fortune on my AGM batteries (2 x 120Ahr) and would like to make sure they are fully charged while I am travelling. However, the cost of a 25A dc-dc charger can be up to ~$500. Now, I already have a 25A - 240V multi-stage charger for landpower charging and a 400W pure sine wave inverter, so its got me thinking...
... why not connect the 240V charger to the inverter and run the invertor off the vehicle alternator while travelling? The 240V 25A multi-stage charger puts out 25a x 14v = 350W at full power. Lets allow 20% conversion loss and you have a max draw of 420W, less if not putting out the full 25A. Now, my inverter will put out 400W continuous and will allow an overload, so even at 420W it should still run.
OK, my current equipment is on the borderline of running this, but if I upgraded to a 600W invertor I would be able to fully charge my AGM batteries from the alternator. The only thing I would have to do is unplug the 240V charger form the landline outlet and plug it into the invertor power when travelling. No hard wiring changes at all. In fact, you could probably even get a switchbox that selected which 240V power source to use if you wanted to get fancy.
OK, this is not the greenest way to power things, there is the loss from 12v to 240V and then from 240V back to 12V. But even a dc-dc charger has some inefficiencies and given you are saving the cost of a dc-dc charger, the inefficiency just means your alternator needs to work a tad harder. It also means you only need 2 items (charger, invertor) and not 3 (charger, invertor, dc-dc charger). Overall, I reckon this is more green - definetly cheaper if you already have the stuff :)
Now, before I patent this method, is there any flaw in my logic of doing this? I do realise that the invertor needs to be wired to the vehicle alternator and not to the van batteries (now that would be real green power!!!).
Cheers
Captain
Reply By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 14:30
Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 14:30
Captain,
if your charger's got an Australian Approval Number then the power factor is guaranteed to be better than 0.8.
If not, it could be worse.
I see you've already allowed for conversion loss of 20%, so add another 25% for the PF and you'll quickly see the 400W unit won't cut it.
Considering high summer operating temperatures, a 600W inverter could be border line.
A 1000W unit would give the best conversion efficiency for this type of load, and also provides adequate cooling at the same time.
cheers, Peter
AnswerID:
436146
Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 14:56
Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 14:56
Hi Peter,
I agree the 400W would be overloaded if at full output, forgot the power factor, but its what I currently have. A 600W would likely cope, especially when not at full charger output. Would like a 1000W, but it would be cheaper to buy a dc-dc charger - was looking at this to save money :)
Cheers
Captain
FollowupID:
707335
Reply By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 14:32
Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 14:32
Conceptionally that will work Captain.
Lot of stuffing around and playing with things and generating 240v isn't for me on the move.
Seems to me that all you need is to ensure you have the right charging volts out of your alternator.
For some Toyota alternators this is easy - someone even had an add I think for a $30 1 diode (0.7v) step up via this site.
Seperately there are alternator mods to step up outputs.
You only need the big amps when your battery is down and this will be supplied by your alternator anyway - so it is the top up charge your after and as you know the alternator is usually a bit low for this hence the DC-DC step up.
I needed this also but for the lithium cells I carry and I solved it by getting a $45 6 amp Laptop DC-DC charger and setting the output to 15V and running it thru a fat 1 ohm resistor (this limits peak current which blows charger fuse).
End result is that I get a useful 4 to 5 amps charge at about 14.5V or so when driving and this tops
mine up.
AnswerID:
436147
Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 15:08
Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 15:08
Hi Robin,
I currently charge my van batteries from the alternator, but I know the alternator output is around 13.4V after a short time. Factor in line loss and I reckon I would be lucky to have 13V at the van batteries. But if I went the diode route, while my van batteries would be fine, my vehicle batteries would be getting ~14V and perhaps getting too hot on a long run. Not sure if I want to play around with vehicle voltages on the electrically overloaded 200...
I reckon you are spot on, by initially charging via the alternator and getting to say 80% charge, then swapping over to the invertor charging, the 400W invertor should be OK as the charger will only be drawing a few amps - its cost me nothing this way. Worse case would be the invertor goes out on overload. Its not like the batteries need to be at 100% every day, but perhaps worthwhile doing once a week on a long trip away from 240V just to keep the batteries in top shape.
Sounds like you came up with a good solution for your lithium batteries :)
Cheers
Captain
FollowupID:
707337
Reply By: Member - Redbakk (WA) - Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 15:57
Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 15:57
Captain....Put it to the test and post your results, in other words go beyond the theory stage and see it work in practice.
I have lost count of the number of times when I have heard it said "you can't do that!".....and guess what....they did..... and it worked!
.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Redbakk (WA) - Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 16:09
Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 16:09
Also....another way is to actually limit the charge current by having a "current limiting device" between the charger and the battery.
For example I currently use a 12v 18w lamp between the charger and a gel cell deep cycle battery....if I did not do this the batteries would soon be ruined...I know because I have stuffed a few before I did this.
By doing this your inverter idea might not see a big load.
.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 23:30
Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 23:30
Hi Redbakk,
Would the lamp not add more load? It would reduce what gets to the battery, but wouldn't it actually result in more current draw from the charger/invertor?
Will post the results when I get to do all this.
Cheers
Captain
FollowupID:
707389
Follow Up By: Member - Redbakk (WA) - Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:04
Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:04
Sorry Captain....I did not explain myself clear enough....the lamp is in series with the charge load......1.battery charger positive to one side of lamp....2.other side of lamp to battery positive.....3.battery negative back to battery charger negative.....because the charge load(amps) has to go through the lamp first before it gets to the battery, the maximum load is set by the lamp wattage( in this case 18w divided by 12v equals just over 1 amp max).
Therefore with a low battery the lamp will at first be "quite bright" but will "dim" as the battery comes up to charge because less current is required to charge it.
You have to place the lamp so that is does not come in contact with anything flammable as is does get hot BUT the lamp is designed for heat anyway which makes it a very easy and cheap source of current control........12w/12v equals 1amp.....24w/12v equals 2 amps.....36w/12v equals 3 amps...etc etc.
So you can see it is a easy way to regulate battery charge....I have been using this method now for over 25 years and it still works today and I don't lose any batterys except for age.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:12
Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:12
Captain - Redbakk's suggestion is an old trick for getting a fairly constant current. The resistance of a tungsten filament lamp rises with temperature so that with a lamp in series with the charging path, the current remains roughly constant over a big range of voltages. A 55W headlamp bulb for example draws about 5 amps at 12V, and still draws close to that with only 2 or 3 volts applied. A useful trick, though I doubt if you have the voltage to make use of it in your case.
Cheers
John
| J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:17
Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:17
Ooops - sorry Redbakk - Your response arrived while I was working on
mine, so I didn't see it until after I'd posted. Yiuy and I are clearly of similar vintage and experience!
Cheers
John
| J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
- Albert Einstein
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Follow Up By: Member - Redbakk (WA) - Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:01
Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:01
No probs...it's all good :))
.
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Follow Up By: Mike DiD - Sunday, Nov 21, 2010 at 20:07
Sunday, Nov 21, 2010 at 20:07
So you're going to use a sophisticated 3-stage charger designed specifically to charge batteries quickly without shortening their life - and then you're going to add more resistance in circuit ?
FollowupID:
707904
Reply By: Member -Dodger - Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 17:20
Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 17:20
Man
don,t be so stingy go the dc 2 dc charger for safety reasons.
Remember that a small prang may liven the whole set up with 240v and zap, someone is in deep dooo dooo.
With 12v then it is much easier.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 23:26
Tuesday, Nov 16, 2010 at 23:26
Hi Dodger,
Can't see any saftey advantage - if the invertor was on while travelling say powering a phone charger in the van, what's the difference in an accident? In fact, its probably safer this way as by disconnecting the vehicle tow plug you disconnect the inverter.
I see all too often every accessory under the sun being purchased. Why not make use of what you already have, too many people buy every specialised item when a multi purpose item would suffice. I still struggle to see the value of a dc-dc charger when you already have a 240v charger and invertor.
By the way, can you please tell my wife I am too stingy when it comes to the vehicle or van, she reckons I already have every item known to mankind, and then some :)
Cheers
Captain
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Reply By: Member -Ted - Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 08:18
Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 08:18
Hi Captain
I currently run a 1200watt sine wave inverter in the vehicle, I use this to power a 25 amp Projecta smart charger. This charges my 4 x 35Ah 12 volt batteries that run my Engel etc. The batteries are full river AGM's and are connected in parrallel. My under bonnet aux battery is a standard wet cell which is not connected to my AGM's. This method of charging keeps my AGM's correctly charged. As it only runs when driving it does not cause any problems. I have wired a rely to turn on the inverter when the ignition is switched on so I dont even have to remember to turn it on. The system works really
well.
cheers
AnswerID:
436207
Follow Up By: Member - Redbakk (WA) - Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:08
Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:08
Ted...what a great idea....what brand is your inverter please?
.
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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:05
Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:05
Hi Ted,
And here I was thinking I was the first to think of this ;) Glad to see it has been done and works
well.
Cheers
Captain
FollowupID:
707428
Follow Up By: Member -Ted - Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:47
Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:47
Redbakk
It is one I purchased on Ebay it has a brand name of PROFiTEXX. It was fairly cheap ~$400 but seems to work OK. I have had it for about 2 years and have not had a problem. It is wired directly off my under bonnet aux bat with 4G cable via a 150amp circuit breaker. I have only loaded it fully when I bought it to make sure that it worked as per the specs. It now only runs the smart charger,laptop, camera batts and when needed the leccy blanket in the KK.
Cheers
FollowupID:
707429
Follow Up By: Member - Redbakk (WA) - Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:59
Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:59
Thanks a million....cheers.
FollowupID:
707430
Follow Up By: Tony LEE - Friday, Nov 19, 2010 at 19:29
Friday, Nov 19, 2010 at 19:29
The method has been discussed many times on the caravanning forums and some have used the idea to make use of the gear they already have to overcome voltage drop and undercharging of their van batteries.
Caravans may elect to have a 240V lead running across the drawbar and there is a lot of argument about how safe that is.
Certainly works and for many vanners, can be implemented at very low cost because they already have a charger and an inverter
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