towing with a 5spd gearbox?

This will bring claims of people who have defended towing in 5th out of the woodwork. Those with most experience, the mechanics who repair these, love people towing in 5th. Now I will wait for someone to say that despite countless examples, they are different , on their scientific study of one.
I agree, 5th gear towing is very expensive, for you, or whoever buys the vehicle from you,
WD

While engine capacity, power, torque and gear ratios have some bearing on towing in 5th gear, the actual design and construction of the gearbox has much more.

Most 4wd gearboxes (manual) are not designed to tow in 5th.

Disco.

Thanks, good to know that.

Bazooka, 5th gear is basically an overdrive gear which means that it is small and heats up quickly.
engine /power just means that you can blow the gearbox up quicker.LOL
Bushy.

Thanks Bushy. I've since read a few more comments on other sites and understand the gearbox design issues a bit better now. 5th gear being on one side of the gearbox means it is susceptible to torque and strain whereas 4th is straight thru and (therefore?) the best/strongest for towing??? Perhaps a mechanic amongst us can clarify but in a nutshell that's what a few people were writing. Makes me wonder how much damage we did to a work vehicle (Nissan diesel trayback) a little time ago, although the trailer we were pulling was not as heavy as a camper. Pity the poor guy who buys it when it's offloaded in a few years time.

Check my reply below.

I towed an off road camper trailer weighing about 1,000 kg total loaded with camp gear fuel & water.

It took about 50,000 km of towing in 5th gear to trash the gearbox in my Hilux.

Lesson learned!

drjfly The van is about 1250kg loaded, so it is not super heavy.

Bushy

I used the Moreys additive in my box because I had heard all the bad stories about towing in 5th. Made no difference. Still buggered my gearbox within 50,000 km of towing my 1000kg of loaded camper trailer.

Hi Axel had penrite and molybond in it to no avail.

hi ,is this axle from townsville

didnt the first series Hilux have the "L" diesel motor-2.2 litre?
second series had the "2L".

Those early hiluxes were unbreakable because they didn't have the horsepower to do any damage.

Holiday Maker

Many thanks for your post. Kinda settles it for me. I blew an auto in one HJ60 and a manual shortly after and blamed the gut-less U2.

No more using 5th for me.

Ham

Holiday Maker Point taken, i was a fitter/turner for many years and should have known better.
Nothing like a few dollars going out,to wake you up.
Bushy

Same goes for Auto's as well I tow in 4th ALWAYS and had the tranny oil checked at 130,000 Was just a bit dirtyaccording to the mechanic that checked it.

Went to a so called Tansmission specialist in Adelaide who put the wrong oil in it and nipped an O ring.

Cost me $ 500 to get it sorted out
At least I got my money back off him.

Never again, it will go to Toyota who have the correct tranny fluid.

Aren't a lot of the 6 speed's, double overdrive? meaning one should still tow in fourth if that is the situation.

I have been a big advocate of towing in 4th since a couple of gearbox rebuilds that were attributed to towing in 5th and another one that was tried to be blamed on towing in 5th when it was just a dodgey main shaft direct from the factory (we all know about the early GU Patrol's problems by now). First two rebuilds were covered by Toyota in my 100 series but probably not really Toyotas fault but go figure, the dodgey Nissan box wouldn't be touched by Nissan cause I had nursed it past their warranty period. I H8 Nissan for warranty if you don't already know, bunch of pr!cks if you ask me.

Cheers, Trevor.

You are right Trevor,

6 speed boxes are double overdrive, got carried away a bit, they should also be towed in fourth.

Thanks for pointing that out. (I did say I was tired)

Dusty

It is really up to each individual to get to know their vehicle and find out where the 1:1 drive ratio is in their gearbox and don't go past it when towing. If in doubt ask a gearbox or auto tranny repairer to point you in the right direction.

Cheers, Trevor.

Wow....1,000,000,000 km... one thousand million kilometers eh... ;-)

How long did that take you 450 years? Just pulling your chain....know what u mean.

CHeers,

Mark

Hey, just realised....that's a billion kilometres!!


Mark

Yeah Mark you are right 3 to many 000s LOL, I must say though it probably felt like it.

"....if you start to feel it pull drop back a gear"

Which is essentially no different to how you should drive when not towing (change down earlier rather than later). Part of the reported problems might be due to poor driving skills/attention but surely not all?

"....if you start to feel it pull drop back a gear"

spot on Bazooka!
However, the 5th gear can still be stripped without you actually feeling the engine "pull" or drop revs.
You could still strip 5th towing a light camper trailer where the engine doesnt struggle or "pull" at all. What you cant notice whilst driving is the wearing of the cogs!!!
for most people i reckon its about sitting on the speed limit. If the sign says 100, they must do 100, So when the engine pings it head off lookng for 5th, they change to keep it happy instead of slowing down.

Murrry Hi.
Am getting all the bearings and seals replaced so it should be ok.
Had a good look at the box and apart from the discolouration on 5 the rest is good for the age and klms of the vechile.

Bushy.

Baz&Pud, surprised to hear that I would have thought that the g/box would have been heavy enough to handle the power .
Goes to show that if you tow the 4th gear is the right way to go.

Bushy.

Bushy04
We towed for some 100,000ks, and yes the box seemed strong enough to cope as long as you changed gear when necessary, but the advice seems to be, don't tow in 5th.
It was explained to me, 4th gear cog is the size of a extra large apple and can handle anything, as soon as you go to 5th the cog is the size of a pea, and can't cope with the pressure.
The above is in my layman's terms, and not that of a mechanic.
Cheers
Baz

Baz&Pud
Good point I like your explanation it says it all.


Thanks Bushy.

Hi John must get around to reading mine one day it may just help.lol.

Bushy

PradOz hi, good point, most autos are rated at a lower towing capacity so that may be why?
Don't drive an auto (been driving manuals for fifty years) and dont like them .

Bushy.

Read your manual - it'll tell you if fifth is an overdriven gear or not. If it is (as I'd suspect) it'll also say to tow in fourth.

Read my follow up above.

Just to clarify it a bit further. I run an EGT gauge as well.

When Towing 2800kg

On a flat road in 5th gear the EGT gets up to over 400deg nad tranny hunts up and down if any undulations

Drop it back into 4th and temp drops to 325.

Car sits at 2300rpm at 90kph and doesnt get hot and is just revving in the sweetspot and does so for hours no probs.

Doesnt seem to affect fuel consumption either.

Would NEVER tow in 5th EVER.

Graham, the temp difference tells the whole story.

thanks Bushy

Barry will start towing in 4th when I tow again, every one has shown thats the only way to go.
Like most people I thought the fuel consumption would blow out but your comments and several others seem to point to a reasonable useage.

Thanks Bushy.

Yeah my uncle used to say the same as you Col, [he had a number of GQ's too].......until his prized GU (now mine) spat the main shaft and inner teeth of 5th gear towing his van into Norseman in 5th a few years back. He was very sorry he did not listen to my words of warning. "What would a young whipper snapper like Trevor know compared to an experienced campaigner like myself" was probably what he was thinking before the explosion of metal in the box of the GU.

Trevor.

Trevor,

You and I both know that the early GU 5th gear failures had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with towing...
Indeed, a very large number of the vehicles so affected had never towed anything!

Those that had towed, well the failure may have been accelerated somewhat, but rest assured, they were going to fail sooner or later regardless....

My vehicle is one of the affected ones (which came from the factory with out-of-spec parts fitted), and it is towing something more often than not, and I am not afraid to use 5th gear when appropriate..

Now that it has the upgraded (thicker) 5th gear, and correct length spline on the mainshaft, I am even less afraid of using 5th (whether towing or not!)...

It's all about turque loading through the 'box, and I don't "lug" the engine in ANY gear.... (YMMV)

Regards,
Ed C

:)

Sorry.... torque... last line

;-))

I get your point with the early GU's and it was not really fair of me to draw this comparison for this thread.

I know you of all people know what you are talking about and how to drive a vehicle but for the average lay person like myself or the vast majority of others on here I just think the rewards are far outweighed by the pitfalls.

Trust me, with my cruiser I was told the same thing as you are saying "if it's not labouring chuck it into 5th" well at 130kph it is definately not labouring so I used to use 5th all the time and guess what....that box was rebuilt twice under warranty. First time it was not a pretty sight.

There is bugger all fuel savings and not much extra in top end speed between 5th and 4th but if you get it wrong there is big expense in fixing the gearbox. That's the way I see it anyhow.

Regards, Trevor.

I don't think there is much you can do about it Darren, others more knowledgeable than me would be better to comment on tyre size or other options. We used to tow in fifth & we did so thinking the lower RPM would give better fuel economy, but as already stated, if your "target" speed is about the 90 KMH mark, then to us it really made no difference to fuel economy towing in fourth, in fact if anything, its marginally better.

We are also relatively new to caravanning & I used to feel I had to get along lickedy split for fear of holding other motorists up, but these days, although still conscious of a build up of vehicles behind me, I worry about it less but take every opportunity to move over & let them pass.

Like you, I was also concerned that by constantly towing in fourth that the increased RPM might be a bit noisy & sound like I was unnecessarily revving the guts out of it, but I quickly got used to it. I think also that by dropping your "target" speed from 95/100 KMH back to 85/90 KMH makes for a much more relaxed trip & it certainly will give you a huge improvement in fuel consumption. It also makes very little difference to your travel time on an ordinary day travel of 300 or 400 Km.

Also............ it's my first diesel and I love to hear it "growl" as if it's daring any hills etc to challenge it!! Much better than listening to any rumblings from the passenger seat!! LOL & safe travelling.

drjfly, had an 03 triton myself before we got the Courier, they are very much alike and after what i have seen and heard in this thread and at the workshop there is no way that I would tow in 5th again.
It makes for false economy a gearbox rebuild cost about 2-3 grand so is it worth it for the sake of 10klm?


Hope this helps Bushy.

Graham. could not agree with you more.
We went for three months and covered 14.500klm and we still felt like we were rushing, however our time frame was fixed by medical treatment for a terminally ill person we took with us, ( three vans and a camper van.) Will do the same run again if possible as this is one big place.
When I went on about the 10klm difference you always have someone who has to get there 5 min earlier or there wheels might fall off. I agree with you and feel that your comment says it all.
Unfortunately my mechanic has chastised me for towing in 5th and the bill will be expensive learning for me.

Thanks Bushy.

I have travelled from Darwin to Adelaide following a Solar Car in the Solar car challenge at 75/80 kph we finished 3rd out right.

I have also travelled Australia extensively at 100/110 kph and towing in 5th, trust me the view and experience is not that different.

Your life your money.

However I prefer to spend the money on the holiday, not rebuilding transmissions as it seems others in this thread have had to do.

As I am towing 2850kg I will leave it firmly in 4th..

The cross wind down near Esperance was so bad it pushed the van out and dragged the car across and scrubbed the outside of one rear tyre and the inside of the other. Made a real mess in about 200k.

I have a friend who drove a solar car from Darwin to Adelaide many many years ago A D Bartell by name He did it solo and I think was the first to do it.

Up to a 1,000,000 ks towing in 5th and no rebuild yet, by the way it is not luck, it is how you do it.

That was the point of my post.

As they say there is always one.


No one is doubting you but

The extra fuel cost is enough to stop most of us travelling at that speed which in most states is illegal anyway.

You are the only one to advocate what everyone else is steering away from so perhaps despite your superior driving style the average Joe will err on the side of safety, sensibility and saving his pocket.

I tried your method but the temp gauge told the story and before the car was actually "lugging" the engine temp went up at least 75deg. So I stay in 4th and spend my hard earned on better things.

I certainly spent enough on fuel without travelling at 110kph.

Its not how fast you can travel , its how the B thing will stop from that speed if something goes radaically wrong.

Something that a lot of hoons forget except they use trees or lamposts to assist their braking. LOL