Who’s using rear wheel spacers on the new Toyotas and any problems?

Hi Mick O

Sorry to see the damage you have incurred. The track width on the new landcruisers is a hot topic with various opinions.

I had a look around on forums about automotives on vehicle track widths and this is quiet well debated on performance car forums.

Quote - discussing wider front track widths than rear.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6311

"The more track width you can have the better you can take corners for a given tyre size because the load transfer from the inside to the outside is less, so the tyres are sharing the work better.

Even with the likelyhood that track width is driven by the regulations, a wider front track can be useful. As a car brakes and enters a corner (assuming trail braking by the driver) - then the load is transfered from the inside rear to the outside front (diagonally) - a wider front track will help the car on corner entry."


From reading automotive forums on this topic it is very common for vehicles to have a wider front track especially more popular with performance cars with over 70% having a wider front track.

Conversly a narrower rear track width is stated has aiding in traction.

Quote- http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6311

"rear wheels closer together aids in traction, for example dragster rear tires are very close. Having the front track width wider than the rears also helps with being able to change direction more quickly."

Other discussions on forums spell out that many people like the aesthetic appearance of a narrower front end but this contradicts the handling of the vehicle.

As yet I have not found a definitive answer. I personally have not had any issues with the wider front track.

I am interested if others have some knowledge in this area.

Cheers

David

Only know of one (new 2009) , and its had no issues and drives a lot better Mic.

Its mostly used for towing though and has no excess load over the rear wheels.

On pre-V8 versions , to get over the hopelessly narrow tracks , I know of several with significantly offset rims - one even up to 50mm but mostly were 30mm I think.


Seperate to above , I also run spacers on some wheel sets on the Patrol without ever having wheels issues.

I think stud fracture issues come down to getting into situations that spike loads onto them via momentary suspension movements that hit the limits.

Bit like some GU shock towers = usually issues can be traced back to harder suspension / overloading etc.

Actually I could probably get an engineering opion on this issue with more data - as we have capabiliy to fully model these things , but not before Xmas.

Isn't amazing. I have seen several threads and posts re wheel spacers. Yet people still use them and this is an excellent example.

Apart from being illegal in 99% they put undue strain on bearings and wheel nuts and what happens . . . . . Things go more than "bump".

Phil

Morning Mick,
We had spacers on our V8 cruiser ute at work to try and stop the tracking in bulldust and muddy conditions in Arnhemland, one day, luckily in Darwin, I had this sensation of a flat tyre. On observation no flat, when I moved the vehicle forward there was this awful clunking noise coming from the drive train somewhere.
I had the cruiser picked up by tilt tray and delivered to our mechanic, when they unloaded it the back wheel fell off ! None of the studs were broken but obviously thread damage. Now, we can't proof if the nuts weren't tightened up on installation or they worked loose by themselves. Bare in mind the spacers where in for about 12 months and I have never had nuts come loose.
We were lucky it happened where it did as another 50m I would have turned onto the Stuart Hwy and sat on 100kmh. Up here we can travel at 130kmh, God knows what would of happened then and what about insurance?
We decided it was not worth the risk even though we can't directly prove what actually caused this. We took them out!

Noel K.

Wheel spacers are illegal in all states in Australia - automatic defect if observed let alone all the legal issues if there is an accident.

The only exceptions are where a spacer is original fitment by the vehicle manufacturer.

Garry

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G'day Mick

Sorry to see and read about the drama with the wheel spacer(s) on the new beast of burden.
My images of your vehicle in the Newman shopping centre car park see the beast standing all "Schmik "O". ;0)
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For what its worth, I run a set of four, 50mm wide wheel spacers with the six stud Toyota wheel stud pattern on the Coromal off road caravan.

They are used because of tyre to suspension clearance issues from new, although not recommended or legal, they do what is required by keeping the inner face of the standard fittment tyres off the standard suspension spring hanger bolts. Damned if you do ~ damned if you don't.

Safe and peaceful Christmas

Could it be that a failure to re-tension the nuts (attaching the spacer to the axle flange) has been a contributing factor here ??
(like the Nissan Patrol 'wheelie fallee offee' syndrome;-))...........

You know, like "fit the spacer, tighten the nuts, fit the wheel, tighten the nuts, and away ya go".... ;-)

We all know (or should know) that wheel nuts need to be re-tensioned after a wheel change (and I check 'em regularly when off-road), but with these spacers, the wheel needs to come off to do this, and maybe it wasn't done ??? (or perhaps not as 'diligently' as it could have been??).....

I see no mention of what brand / make of spacers you have there Mick, and as you say, the seating / centering would be critical....

If you're not yet ready to give up on this issue, you may wish to give these blokes a call >>>

GalPro Engineering .. Barry is the bloke to talk to;-) ..

I had some wheel studs made by them a while back, and if the quality of these is any indication, their work is of a very high standard indeed....


Catch ya later.... Ed C

:)

Good thread Mick,

Just a couple of considerations I haven't seen raised:
#1 wheel offset - the wheels you are running are zero offset and the spacers put them out 50mm - so the point where the vehicle is supported is now 50mm outside the axle face. Compare this to the 79series split rims and many other 4wd wheels which have up to 60mm (?neg) offset and even if you fit spacers the weight is still supported inside or close to the axle flange.

#2 With your setup, I expect you have a lot of weight on the rear axle. The sticker on the drivers door pillar usually states max weights for front and rear axles. Any idea whether you are near it? My recollection is 2600kgs for the rears.

#3 Fat vs skinny tyres - I'd expect the tracking problem to be worse with skinny tyres - the 750R16 have 160mm of tread, and the track difference is 47mm per side. A 285/75 for comparison has 230mm of tread with the same track difference, so on paper at least, fat tyres are better off.

#4 Protection of the brakes - the rear discs have leading calipers - so are easily hit with sand, mud and stones. The wheel and tyre normally protect this. By adding 50mm spacers, you lose 50mm of protection of those calipers, and you are more likely to chew out rear pads and score the discs. Some years back in SA you could buy custom made shields to protect the calipers on the 79series mining vehicles.

Cheers
Phil

It appears many here are aware that wheel spacers are illegal on road.
With the reported dramas it should also be obvious that spacers are illegal on road for a very good reason.

I would not enjoy meeting someones illegally modified fwd in a collision.

In my job I attended a very sad head-on between two fwds north of Yanchep on Wanneroo Rd some time back with fatalities resulting.
The memory is still very clear in my mind.

Neither my workmates nor I want to attend anyone's misery caused by illegal mods.
There's already too much misery caused by careless attitudes, stupidity and inattention.

Sorry, but it's said now. Have a safe Christmas and enjoy your families.

While on studs and such and hopefully not too far off topic. Any one know the recommended tightening torque for the wheel nuts on the 5 stud GX and GXL alloy wheels?

Workwise I have come across stories of snapped studs and it was put down to apprentices not tightening up the nuts, now I reckon it might have been over tightening. Has happened to different vehicles and trailers.

Think I will use the old torque wrench from here on.

Flynnie

Hi Mick,

Not a pleasant experience!!

A lot of good suggestions already noted, so just a couple of thoughts that may be of interest.

I note in your blog re the rims that you were not happy with the lack of taper in the wheel stud holes, and to me that is a real issue.

Then there has been the additional loading (the spacer/offset) introduced to the 'coupling' that the wheel nuts need to secure.

Then there is 'whatever the weight' may be, and how that may have been affected by the terrain, ie weight transfer, at the time or just prior to failure

Looking at the photo of the face of the spacer you may pick up whether there has been any movement prior to failure, as the studs all seem to have snapped, ie not 'lingering' fatigue failure

And then what torque or tension was used at initial tightening and then re-tightening the wheel nuts

A careful look at all the evidence you have could suggest that the failure may have been due to a combination of factors, and you may be able to correct that.

IE Source wheels with correct taper in stud holes, ensure all mating surfaces are clean when fitting, ensure wheels are torqued correctly, this may require an engineering review to ensure correct torque values are used etc etc. Of course if wheels are available with the required offset that would be desirable as you eliminate the issues of muliple mating surfacesetc.

Hope this is of interest.

Rgds,

Rob

Mick;
Had a recent issue with my 79 series ( hdt-fe though ) where I sheared 1 stud and 3 others loose fortunately found issue quite quickly and replaced all studs to be sure,
vehicle had done zero offroad before I picked it up so am thinking maybe a production issue on the studs. don't know but may be something to think about.

Cheers & Regards
Paul

Good day Mick an answer to this problem maybe in the way in which Toyota Nissan Hino etc trucks wheel studs are used to secure their dual wheel assembles and that is the inner wheel is secured on the normal stud by an over stud and the outer wheel by a wheel nut { i.m sure there will be someone out there who has access to one of these trucks and can photo an example to clarify what i am trying to explain] but the long and short of it is the spacer would be secured by the over stud and the wheel by the nut the cost in getting this made up would be huge but maybe a bit of pressure could be brought to bear on Toyota as they have cut assay costs by using a rear axle that is already in production for previous models but a lot of people who are buying the 79 model have the problem of an all terrain vehicle that cuts two wheel tracks in soft conditions ie sand black soil etc and has a tendency to be skittish. Our Oka has the same problem but the difference is not as noticeable as the Toyota. Hope there is someone out there who knows what i,m talking about lol Merry Xmas to all
cheers Dave

hi mick
It could be the coating on the spacer itself to me it looks annodised whjch is only microns thick but can flake off causing wheel nuts and spacer nuts to loosen only a suggestion as ive had to remove chrome from truck rims to stop them coming loose

Hope i make sense lol

Scott

Great post guys!! Just goes to demonstrate what lengths people in the know will go inorder to keep driving their troopies. The other option clearly is not attractive?? Have a great Christmas folks!

Have had no trouble with mine over 7000km of rough travel, but I have now taken them off...


MJ

Hi Mick
You have not mentioned if you lubricate the studs or not. It is impossible to get a correct torque on any bolt that is does not have a thread lubricant applied, most probems I have seen with broken wheel studs can be attributed to this.
I cannot tell by the pic's but do these spaces have a machined recess that correctly locates them on the axle? and do they have a machined boss to support the wheel? as by rights the wheel studs should not be supporting any weight.
Chris