Those Damn Foglights - Finally some action

Submitted: Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:20
ThreadID: 8569 Views:2422 Replies:13 FollowUps:22
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Finally some words from the NSW constabulary.

Have a look at http://tamworth.yourguide.com.au.home.asp

Sorry Folks I cannot do a link.

Pete G
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Reply By: Leroy - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:24

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:24
Hmmmm I think link should be http://tamworth.yourguide.com.au/home.asp or just click link text
AnswerID: 37532

Reply By: macca - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:29

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:29
and not before time either...I hope other state police are going to follow the same trend
AnswerID: 37534

Reply By: Big Trev - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 13:45

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 13:45
This is a direct copy from the Victorian Road Safety (Vehicles) Regulations 1999
Schedule 8.

85. Daytime running lights

(1) A pair of daytime running lights may be fitted to a motor vehicle.

(2) A pair of daytime running lights fitted to a vehicle with 4 or more wheels must be fitted with the centre of each light--

(a) at least 600 millimetres from the centre of the other light; and

(b) not over 510 millimetres from the nearer side of the vehicle.

(3) However, a pair of daytime running lights fitted to a motor vehicle under 1300 millimetres wide may be fitted with the centre of each light not under 400 millimetres from the centre of the other light.

(4) When on, a daytime running light must--

(a) show a white or yellow light visible from the front of the vehicle; and

(b) not use over 25 watts power.

Note: The third edition ADRs only allow white daytime running lights.

(5) Daytime running lights must be wired so they are off when a headlight, except a headlight being used as a flashing signal, is on.

AnswerID: 37544

Follow Up By: Big Trev - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 13:50

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 13:50
You cannot run headlights with "daytime running lights" (in Vict.)
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FollowupID: 27191

Reply By: Big Trev - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 13:47

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 13:47
105. Front fog lights

(1) A pair of front fog lights may be fitted to a motor vehicle with 4 or more wheels.

(2) A pair of front fog lights, or a single front fog light, may be fitted to a motor cycle or trike.

(3) A pair of front fog lights fitted to a motor vehicle with 4 or more wheels must have the centre of each light not over 400 millimetres from the nearer side of the vehicle unless the centres of the lights are at least 600 millimetres apart.

(4) If the top of the front fog light is higher than the top of any low-beam headlight on the vehicle, the centre of the fog light must not be higher than the centre of the low-beam headlight.

(5) A front fog light must--

(a) when on--

(i) project white or yellow light in front of the vehicle; and

(ii) be a low-beam light; and

(b) be able to be operated independently of any headlight; and

(c) be fitted so the light from it does not reflect off the vehicle into the driver's eyes
AnswerID: 37545

Follow Up By: Big Trev - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 14:01

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 14:01
section 5 (a) (i) tells us they can be white or yellow. , and (ii) says they must be a low beam.

section 5 (b) would suggest that they CAN be on with headlights, bu have the ability to be "operated independently" of the headlights.

section 5 (c) is what everyone complains about.

However the only reference to the use of fog lights is in Regulation 215, section (3) of the Victorian Road Rules 1999, which states that:
Also, a driver driving during the day in fog, or other hazardous weather conditions causing reduced visibility, MAY drive without the headlights of the drivers vehicle operating if the vehicle is fitted with front fog lights.........

It actually doesn't say that it HAS to be foggy to have the fog lights on.
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FollowupID: 27193

Follow Up By: Simon - Thursday, Nov 20, 2003 at 14:04

Thursday, Nov 20, 2003 at 14:04
Big trev,
but it does say somewhere that rear foglights must not be used when not foggy.

I think the law needs clarifying.
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FollowupID: 27508

Follow Up By: Chris (W.A.) - Thursday, Nov 20, 2003 at 23:33

Thursday, Nov 20, 2003 at 23:33
In W.A. it's simple....don't turn your foglights at all unless there's bloody fog or you may get a ticket.
The law is already enforced here in W.A. and has been for years.
Same goes for those gay rear red lights on the Excels, they have to be off as well unless there's fog.

Regards,Nice southerly coastal fishing trip someday.
Chris
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FollowupID: 27554

Follow Up By: Simon - Friday, Nov 21, 2003 at 11:28

Friday, Nov 21, 2003 at 11:28
Chris,
where is that law written?

Ive been searching the Australian road rules and cant find it anywhere.

I know it should be there but its not, is it a state law?
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FollowupID: 27575

Follow Up By: Big Trev - Friday, Nov 21, 2003 at 11:39

Friday, Nov 21, 2003 at 11:39
Simon,
try this link, you may have to search around a bit.

http://www.slp.wa.gov.au/statutes/swans.nsf/html/search?opendocument
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FollowupID: 27576

Follow Up By: Simon - Friday, Nov 21, 2003 at 11:46

Friday, Nov 21, 2003 at 11:46
Thanks Trev, Im actualy looking for the rule in SA.

As far as I can see in the Astralian road rules and the ADRs you can drive with your fog lights on. (front ones at least)

If there is any local laws Id like to know.

It seems the laws have all changed when the australian road rules come into force and some little omisions have occured
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FollowupID: 27577

Follow Up By: Big Trev - Friday, Nov 21, 2003 at 12:53

Friday, Nov 21, 2003 at 12:53
Simon,
this is from SA Law:

ROAD TRAFFIC (VEHICLE STANDARDS) RULES 1999 - REG 106
Rear fog lights
Rear fog light
106. (1) A vehicle may have fitted to its rear:
a) a pair of rear fog lights; or
(b) 1 rear fog light fitted on, or to the right, of the centre of the vehicle.
(2) Subrule (1) (b) applies to a motorbike with an attached sidecar as if the sidecar were not attached.
(3) A rear fog light must:
(a) have its centre:
(i) not over 1.5 metres above ground level; and
(ii) at least 100 millimetres from the centre of a brake light; and
(b) when on, project red light behind the vehicle; and
(c) not use over 27 watts power; and
(d) be wired to a visible device in the vehicle that tells the driver that the rear fog light is operating.

(Regulation 45 )
Part 1--Offences against the Road Traffic Act 1961

217(1) Using rear fog light when not driving in fog or other hazardous weather conditions $117

the link that I used for SA law is:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/forms/search1.html?&mask=au/legis/sa/consol_reg&
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FollowupID: 27582

Reply By: Matt M - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 15:08

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 15:08
About time!! They use of these lights has never been permitted unless it is in FOG! Its not hard to understand! Despite being aimed low they do throw light upwards (turn them off and on on a dark road to see the effects)and project a rearward red light with the same intensity as a BRAKE light. It is just as annoying to be following an offending vehicle as being followed. Lets drop the fashion statement and start supporting the police and do the right thing, turn the stupid thing s off unless there is FOG!
AnswerID: 37552

Reply By: Matt M - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 15:13

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 15:13
About time!! They use of these lights has never been permitted unless it is in FOG! Its not hard to understand! Despite being aimed low they do throw light upwards (turn them off and on on a dark road to see the effects)and project a rearward red light with the same intensity as a BRAKE light. It is just as annoying to be following an offending vehicle as being followed. Lets drop the fashion statement and start supporting the police and do the right thing, turn the stupid thing s off unless there is FOG!
AnswerID: 37555

Reply By: KiwiAngler - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 15:19

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 15:19
Being but a simple lad...some one give me a simple answer to this question:

Are the regs posted above telling me that I CANNOT drive in the daytime with my 'normal' 'standard' headlights on? (NSW)
AnswerID: 37558

Follow Up By: Matt M - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 17:03

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 17:03
OOPs sorry about the repeats!! Damn work computers!!

Kiwi!! YES and no, what they are saying is.... The regs are not definative and they are not exactly what the police are enforcing, they are only ADR's. The police are enforcing a rule that no foglights can be used unless it is in FOG!

You can but be prepared to face a $70-80 fine!

Its good isnt it, stops those annoying dropkicks blinding everyone on the road for nothing more than looks!

All we need now if for the Police to enforce it and then the public may soon get the picture and foolow the laws!

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FollowupID: 27207

Follow Up By: Big Trev - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 08:43

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 08:43
Can't help you Kiwiangler, the only info I have ready access to is Victorian.

By the way a good tip is to NOT believe everything the Police say, sometimes they get the accuracy of the regulations wrong. It is not their fault they are expected to be expert on ALL law and it is very difficult to understand at times.

In Victoria, you can drive with your 'normal' headlights on, you can also run with 'daytime running lights' on, but not at the same time as the vehicles headlights.
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FollowupID: 27254

Reply By: phil - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 20:42

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 20:42
The lights which cause problems are NOT fog lights, they are auxilliary driving lights, despite what they might be called!
Fog lights, to be effective, must be made with a very tightly controlled beam cutoff so that no significant light is emitted above the cut off level because this is what causes reflected glare back to the driver. It also causes glare for oncomming drivers. They are intended to improve visibility of the road for the driver of the vehicle to which they are fitted.
In NSW you can use low beam headlights OR fog lights but not both, in conditions of poor visibility.
AnswerID: 37582

Follow Up By: Big Trev - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 08:50

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 08:50
Phil, in Victoria the regs are quite clear they refer to fog lights as being either yellow or white. I agree with you, I reckon fog lights are yellow, but the law doesn't.

Daytime running lights are white, and these are what is being fitted to new cars such as SS's, XR's, GT's, HSV's, and others. People (including the Police) should stop refering to them as fog lights, because they are not.

The NSW Police may be saying Fog, because there is nothing in NSW law to cover off 'daytime running lights'. I will try to get access to NSW regs on this.
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FollowupID: 27255

Follow Up By: Matt M - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:12

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:12
READ THE REGS!!!!! Daytimr running lights are 25W MAX!! That excludes all current forward lights!!! So to be correct, there are NO vehicles out there at the moment being manufactured with DAYTIME RUNNING LIGHTS, they are either driving lights or FOG lights!!!!!!!!
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FollowupID: 27261

Follow Up By: Big Trev - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:17

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:17
Matt, they are Victorian Regulations above, NOT New South Wales, (they are below)

This thread was started with NSW in mind, not Vict.
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FollowupID: 27262

Follow Up By: Big Trev - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:37

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:37
I just had a rush of memory, I remember something about the new Ford BA Fairmont having to have the globes of their "daytime driving lights" changed because they didn't comply with the law, I can't remember much more than that.
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FollowupID: 27270

Follow Up By: Matt M - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:50

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:50
According to your list of Regs there are NO daytime running lights and that my point stands with Fog lights Turn them off unless its Foggy, dont see where that is difficult to understand. I dont see why there is even a discussion, the law states they are illegal, if you want to split hairs to if they are day lights or poof lights then you have missed the loint entirely, THEY DAZZLE IN DAY AND NIGHT!!!! What more does anyone need to justify their missuse!!!!
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FollowupID: 27272

Follow Up By: Big Trev - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:42

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:42
Love the agression Matt, it is always a good way to get your point over.

If you would like to go and read all my posts, nowhere am I defending the use of them, I am only stating what the law in Vict (and NSW) states.

Daytime running lights are quite legal in Victoria, and are listed in the regulations (see above), although they are limited to 25 watts, and not to be used in conjunction with headlights.

I fully support the use of any front facing white light with enough wattage to be seen by other road users, particularly in non-metropolitian areas, and definitely on motorbikes.

I work for an organisation that gives preference to purchasing vehicles where the headlights come on automatically, if you check most government purchasing policies (via internet), and you find the same thing.

The NSW government some time ago, had a "lights on in the daytime" program in rural area.

What do you have to say about the influx of imported vehicles with "blue" headlights? Are you trying to tell everyone that they are no good either.
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FollowupID: 27275

Follow Up By: Matt M - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 15:57

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 15:57
Im sorry if you mistake my frustration at something so blindingly obvious for aggression!!

I dont understand people aguing for arguments sake, the logic is, Fog lights used in anything other than fog, dazzle oncoming traffic!!

Is it worth even making any other points about that fact?? Because I dont see the logic behind trying to defend it by playing with words and twisting the stated Regs.That is the reason we have so many regulation, people try to bend the rules to suit themselves and hence it all has to be written down as law. But as I said before, the police dont enforce ADR's if they can help it, thats supposed to be handle at the RTA level, the STATE ROAD LAWS can and do state that FOG lights used in other than fog are illegal.

I think the blue light is what they state it to be, much clearer and easier to see from behind, siimilar to the progression we made from yellow light to the Sodium (?) white lights!! If the imported vehicles light output is correct and aimed correctly then there is no problem!! Again what was the logic behind that comment, did I say that better light is bad, I think not?? I would love a set of Zenon HID lights fitted to my car, clearer light, better output and half the amperage, just aim them correctly and follow the STATE laws!

No aggression, just frustration!
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FollowupID: 27306

Follow Up By: Big Trev - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 21:35

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 21:35
Sorry to be a cause of "frustration" Matt, just trying to give the facts as they are stated.

People should be aware of ALL the facts, not jump to conclusions :-)
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FollowupID: 27343

Follow Up By: Brian - Wednesday, Nov 26, 2003 at 23:08

Wednesday, Nov 26, 2003 at 23:08
Drove down the Newel HWy last week and there were signs asking that you turn your lights on ! can't remember if it was Nsw or Vic.
Also remember Qld running adds asking people to do the same "Light up and live " they called it, would have been in thelate 80's

Brian
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FollowupID: 28608

Reply By: Dennis (Brisbane) - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 21:55

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 21:55
As has always been the case (at least here in Qld), but the Police do not 'police' it.

Therefore, d***heads abound with their 'look at me' fog lights blazing during perfectly sunny Queensland days, especially on SS's, HSV's, FPV's and XR's.

Would love to see them all get booked for it.
AnswerID: 37594

Reply By: Colin - NSW (Bungendore area) - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 23:33

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 23:33
The important point here is probably the Wattage of the lights. The cars that are anoying seem to have globes much stronger than 25 W. You would think that the car makers are conforming with the existing regulations, so the owners must be adding non-conforming lights or changing the globes?

My Forester has these 'fog lights' fitted but the output is quite low and I have masked off about 2cms on the top of the lens! I only use them at night sometimes when the Roos are about - they give a marginal improvement in side light.

Some of the "ADR's" are pretty hard to explain - why do a lot of 4WD's have the standard wrap around rear lights blanked off and replaced with silly little lights set inside the bumper? A crazy 'backward improvement' !Subaru Forester
"size isn't everything"
AnswerID: 37620

Reply By: Big Trev - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 09:17

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 09:17
This what I found after a quick search of the NSW REgs:

ROAD TRANSPORT (SAFETY AND TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT) (ROAD RULES) REGULATION 1999 - SECT 52

52 Interpretation

"fog light" means a light used to improve the illumination of the road in case of fog, snowfall, heavy rain or a dust storm.

ROAD TRANSPORT (SAFETY AND TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT) (ROAD RULES)

REGULATION 1999 - SECT 55

55 Lights on motor vehicles generally

(a) any fog light affixed to a motor vehicle on a road to be lighted except in fog, mist or under other atmospheric conditions that restrict visibility
AnswerID: 37652

Follow Up By: Big Trev - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:32

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:32
sorry 55 above should have read:

A person must not cause or permit:

(a) any fog light affixed to a motor vehicle on a road to be lighted except in fog, mist or under other atmospheric conditions that restrict visibility
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FollowupID: 27268

Reply By: Big Trev - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:26

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:26
Some additional information from the NSW Road Transport (Vehicle Registration) Regulation 1999 - Notes:

Division 12 - Fog lights
113 Front fog lights

(1) A pair of front fog lights may be fitted to a motor vehicle with 4 or more wheels.
(2) A pair of front fog lights, or a single front fog light, may be fitted to a motor bike or trike.
(3) A pair of front fog lights fitted to a motor vehicle with 4 or more wheels must have the centre of each light not over 400 millimetres from the nearer side of the vehicle unless the centres of the lights are at least 600 millimetres apart.
(4) If the top of the front fog light is higher than the top of any low-beam headlight on the vehicle, the centre of the fog light must not be higher than the centre of the low-beam headlight.
(5) A front fog light must:
(a) when on:
(i) project white or yellow light in front of the vehicle, and
(ii) be a low-beam light, and
(b) be able to be operated independently of any headlight, and
(c) be fitted so the light from it does not reflect off the vehicle into the driver’s eyes.

114 Rear fog lights

(1) A vehicle may have fitted to its rear:
(a) a pair of rear fog lights, or
(b) 1 rear fog light fitted on, or to the right, of the centre of the vehicle.
(2) Subclause (1) (b) applies to a motor bike with an attached sidecar as if the sidecar were not attached.
(3) A rear fog light must:
(a) have its centre:
(i) not over 1.5 metres above ground level, and
(ii) at least 100 millimetres from the centre of a brake light, and
(b) when on, project red light behind the vehicle, and
(c) not use over 27 watts power, and
(d) be wired to a visible device in the vehicle that tells the driver that the rear fog light is operating.
AnswerID: 37660

Follow Up By: Big Trev - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:30

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:30
You will note from all of this that in NSW it is illegal to run "fog lights" during 'normal' weather conditions, however "fog lights" can be either white or yellow. There is no limit in NSW as to the wattage of front "fog lights".

Rear fog lights have a maximum power listed as 27 watts.
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FollowupID: 27267

Reply By: phil - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 17:23

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 17:23
I still want to make the point that if the lights dazzle oncoming drivers then they will not be effective as fog lights because they will cause light to be reflected back from the fog particles to the driver of the vehicle. Note also the NSW reg which says that they must be "low beam lights"
Lights which cause dazzle are driving lights and are covered by different regulations!

It is my understanding also that there are few vehicles fitted with daytime running lights which are used in Europe. I think an ADR for them is still being worked on.
AnswerID: 37694

Follow Up By: Big Trev - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 21:33

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 21:33
Sorry Phil, I am not trying to be pedantic, but the Vict. regs cover daytime running lights. I like to think it is because Victoria is an exceptionally progressive State. ;-)

Not sure about the Australian Design Rules, but I would find it difficult to believe the the rule makers in Vict. would act outside the ADR's. I know one of them personally and he wouldn't let it happen, and it is his job to make sure it doesn't.

I am with you, if the lights are too bright, then there is a problem. However if the rules say you can have them (at low wattage, and no glare), then so be it.
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FollowupID: 27342

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