help using solar panels

Submitted: Monday, Sep 12, 2011 at 10:17

ThreadID: 88971 Views:4154 Replies:10 FollowUps:14

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avidcamper

We have just purchased a used Goldstream off road Crown camper complete with 120W folding portable solar panels. So far, we haven't had any luck with figuring out how to charge the batteries in the camper using the panels. We tested them out on our portable Waeco battery and all is working ok, but we can't figure out how to operate them on the camper.

The camper has two batteries installed with a CTek smart charger, two anderson plugs (on for the car & one for solar) ..... also inside the camper there is a solar 'booster'. On the solar booster there is a switch with three options 14.4v, off and 14.7v. ...... We're unsure as to which of these switches may or may not allow charge from the solar panels - can anyone help us with this? There is also a display which indicates battery condition.

Also, inside the camper 'boot' where the anderson plugs are located, there is a large round dial with 4 options - off, both, car battery .... I think the 4th option referred to the trailer battery.

Should we unplug the car anderson plug that is in the camper when we plug in the solar panels? (I am not referring to the plug on the towbar).

We are due to go away for a few days soon, and have booked an unpowered site - the fridge is 2-way, and we don't want to run out of battery power whilst away! All help and advice regarding the operation of the solar panels would be greatly appreciated!

Thanking you in advance!

avidcamper

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Reply By: Member - John and Val - Monday, Sep 12, 2011 at 12:15

Monday, Sep 12, 2011 at 12:15

What model Ctek? What type of batteries (wet, AGM, gel..?) and roughly how big are they (100Ah is about the 30x16x20cm) What make and model "solar booster" (ie regulator).

What sort of fridge? 12V/240V? Can it run on gas, or is it a compressor type?

Happy to help, but we need more detail! The setup sounds good and thorough but may be nonstandard.

Suggest don't try the solar panels till this is figured out - you could damage a battery fairly easily with an unregulated 120W panel.

You might find our blog Electricity for Camping a useful read.

Cheers

John

J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
- Albert Einstein

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AnswerID: 464787

Follow Up By: avidcamper - Monday, Sep 12, 2011 at 13:47

Monday, Sep 12, 2011 at 13:47

Thankyou for your reply John.

I'll check out the Ctek model .... how can I tell what type the two batteries in the camper are? The solar panels have a 'solar charge controller' attached to the back - would that be a 'regulator'? Or would the 'booster' panel in the trailer be a regulator?

The fridge is a compressor type, waeco 110litre .... doesn't use gas, so we really need those batteries to charge!

I have been devouring as much info as possible and have tried to digest the 'electricity for camping' blog ... but being an 'electronically challenged' female, I do find the technical details a bit hard to absorb!

I'll do a little more investigating of the various components and add them to my message .....

Cheers,

avidcamper

FollowupID: 738765

Reply By: Travis22 - Monday, Sep 12, 2011 at 18:06

Monday, Sep 12, 2011 at 18:06

I would say 99% of the time you want the Regulator (solar booster?) switch in the 14.4V setting.

14.7V is good for reconditioning wet cell batteries but is to high for AGM batteries.

Assuming the CTEK is for charging from 240V, when you have access to mains, or generator power, no effect on your solar setup.

There are indeed other variables so its a little hard to answer exactly but hopefully this helps.

Depending on your vehicle setup, (do you have dual batteries in the vehicle?) and the type of isolator installed, if you have dual batteries in the vehicle...... there may be no point, but also no harm in leaving the anderson plug connecting your vehicle's power to the camper trailer when hooking the solar power up to the camper trailer.

The 4way switch in the camper trailer... you need to look at how it is wired. All functions may not be in use anyways, but for the sake of it you should look if possible at how it is wired.

I doubt it has been wired this way, but it could have been...

You said you have two aux batteries in the camper trailer, they may be connected in parallel via this switch, or not... If they are connected independently, i would guess you therefor have the ability to switch between OFF, Aux battery 1 only, Aux battery 2 only and Both Aux batteries together.

(BUT i think it is more likely to be wired like this:)

Since it has been labled "Car battery, Trailer battery" etc. I would assume this switch actually allows you to isolate the Camper trailer from the vehicle via the switch therefor you do not need to disconnect the anderson plug (for the car). Basically that positive wire goes through to this switch, so if you have the switch set on both, it allow's both the car and camper trailer to charge together ie. when the engine is running.

(But this is another little can of worms, you see over the length of wire between you vehicles alternator and you camper trailers batteries there will be substantial voltage drop, so you will most likely find that your vehicles alternator is not able to charge the camper trailer batteries when the engine is running, for this, you will need a DC-DC charger which will effectively BOOST the volts from the alternator and allow you to charge the camper trailer batteries when driving)

But, when stopped, if the switch is set on BOTH you could potentially also drain your vehicles battery(s) via. the fridge in the camper trailer etc. So, when stopped you should switch it over to Trailer or unplug the anderson plug, does the same thing to isolate your car's battery(s?)

If this switch is wired as above, (would make more sense then wiring the 2 camper trailer batteries independently through it but you never know...) then you have the ability to, leave the anderson plug connected to your vehicle and plug in the solar panel to the another anderson plug, and charge the whole lot together, or just the camper trailer batteries. Potentially even direct the charge to the Vehicle only, Trailer only or Both...

Again, depending on your vehicle setup, (do you have dual batteries in the vehicle, and anything connected to the aux battery in the vehicle - car fridge, lighting, stereo etc?) If so, then you may wish to charge the vehicles aux battery with the camper trailers batteries... So the 4 way switch in the camper trailer should be set to BOTH. But if there is nothing draining power from the vehicle, or no vehicle aux battery simply switch the 4 way switch to Trailer when you connect the solar panel anderson plug to the circuit.

Hope this makes sense. Kinda just thinking out aloud, happy to explain things in a little more detail but hopefully this gives you an idea how things should work.

Travis.

AnswerID: 464814

Follow Up By: Travis22 - Monday, Sep 12, 2011 at 18:25

Monday, Sep 12, 2011 at 18:25

Still thinking about this Avidcamper

If your CTEK charger, is a DC-DC charger (would be nice, then you dont need to buy yet another thing!) then, basically as above, what it is doing is when you are driving, it takes the voltage from the vehicle (most likely around 10-11 volts by the time it gets to your camper trailers batteries (due to voltage drop)), and boosts this back up to around 14.Xvolts.

If this is the case, then for the CTEK to work, you need to have the 4 way switch set to BOTH.

So when driving, the vehicle anderson plug is connected. 4 way switch set to BOTH.

When stopped for a long period of time, it would be perhaps a good habit to change the 4 way switch over to Trailer - but again if there is an isolator in your vehicle this is not absolutely necessary. Or simply leave the switch set to Both, and disconnect the vehicle anderson plug.

When charging via the solar panels, connect the panels to the camper trailer via the other anderson plug, and change the 4 way switch to Trailer.

This Solar Booster in your camper trailer, sounds like the solar panel regulator, yes. Again, 14.4 volts is best. But 14.7 volts for a short period of time will not hurt anything. (Again, if you have wet cell batteries, 14.7 is good to recondition them ie. once a month if you are on the road for a long long period and time and constantly cycling the battery, but you will need to open the caps on the battery and monitor the water levels... if you have AGM, forget about it. 14.7volts will kill the battery but again im talking hours, 6hours, 12hours more before the damage is done.)

Sorry if im repeating myself. Again, any questions just ask.

Travis.

FollowupID: 738778

Reply By: avidcamper - Monday, Sep 12, 2011 at 21:29

Monday, Sep 12, 2011 at 21:29

Hi Travis,

Thankyou for your helpful advice ... I'll spend a bit of time trying to digest it, and pass it on to my husband (he is simply too busy to spend time researching so tis up to me!).

One thing I can clarify - we only have one battery in the car .... two batteries in the trailer. I am pretty sure they are gel .... but will be checking this as soon as we have some spare moments .... plus the Ctek model and solar booster ..... will also try to trace the wiring so that we can give a better picture of our setup.

I'll be back with more info ........

cheers,

Lenita

AnswerID: 464852

Reply By: Member - John and Val - Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 07:37

Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 07:37

Hi Lenita,

Sorry to be slow getting back to you, but Travis has provided a very good and comprehensive reply. We both face the problem of trying to decide the function/s being performed by your gear and guessing just how it is most likely connected up. The Ctek for example may be for charging from the mains, or could be a dc-dc type for increasing the charge from the vehicle to the "house" batteries as Travis describes, or could be doing that and also managing solar charging - depends on the model. Likewise the switching could be intended for several different uses depending on whether the batteries are connected in parallel or arranged so that they can be used independently.

I think it may be time to suggest asking a COMPETENT electrical person to look at it and produce a diagram of what is doing what and going where.

Just how long you can run the fridge will depend on battery size. According to the specs, your fridge will probably call for about 50 amphours per day - very dependent on how you use it. IF your two batteries are each about the size I mentioned, and in reasonable condition, they should each run the fridge for one day without any charging.

Your solar panels should deliver about 7 amps in strong sunlight, maybe a little more depending on the type of controller. So - in 7 hours they should harvest enough to run the fridge for 24 hours. How to get them working? Depends on your setup, so we come back to that competent person tracing out what's going where.

I would use the lower voltage setting (14.4V) on the "solar booster" though the "solar booster" is itself a mystery box whose function needs to be determined.

Afraid that's not a lot of help, but I think there are too many unknowns to provide the answers with any certainty.

Cheers

John

J and V
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AnswerID: 464871

Reply By: avidcamper - Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:31

Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:31

Hi John,

Thankyou for your help. We will be taking the car to an auto electrician within the next few days to install an anderson plug ...... we have decided to tow the trailer to his workshop at the same time for a 'looksee' & hopefully some assistance to solve some of the 'mysteries'!

Do we need to know anything re the installation of the anderson plug? Or is that straightforward (please say it is!!!!) .........

Why does all this have to be so complicated??? I just want to 'plug and play'!!

Thankyou again,

avidcamper

AnswerID: 464882

Follow Up By: avidcamper - Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:35

Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:35

Forgot to mention - I found a snippet of information regarding the large 'knob' located in the camper boot ..... apparently it is an isolator switch - and the settings are OFF - no power, 1 - inside lights & annexe light from transformer or van battery, 2 - car battery, ALL - van battery and car battery.

At least that is one mystery solved!

FollowupID: 738821

Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 13:27

Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 13:27

Hi

Fitting Anderson Plug - easy, though like anything involving wires and cars, getting the wire to go where you want it can be a pain!

re the 4 way switch - progress! Something to note though is that if position 4 does allow the camper to run off BOTH its own batteries and the vehicle battery, then there is nothing in the engine compartment to isolate the camper from the vehicle when the engine isn't running. The batteries will all be connected together. Consequently they can all go down together, perhaps to a point where the vehicle battery can't start the engine.

If you haven't used the vehicle with a camper previously, it probably doesn't have anything in the engine bay to control the charging of extra batteries and provide isolation. This needs to be looked into, as it is important that you be able to disconnect reliably from the vehicle battery when the engine isn't running, and especially when starting the engine. This connect/disconnect function is usually performed by an Isolator or Voltage Sensitive Relay, (VSR) which is simply an electrically operated switch set so that it only turns on when there is charging voltage available. (This is another reason I was interested in the model of the Ctek charger - some of them include this function!) This can be done manually, but far better if automatic.

I would expect an autoelectrician to look at this before fitting your Anderson Plug, but it is worth raising with him/her. For the sort of gear we are talking about you might check out ABR Sidewinder's site - Derek, the proprietor, is a valued ExplorOz member. You will probably spend around $100 for a VSR.

Sorry to throw more cold water on your progress!

Cheers

John

J and V
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Reply By: avidcamper - Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 18:21

Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 18:21

okay .... I've taken photos of the electrics - hopefully that will tell a story. Now .. to attach them .... hmmmm - is there a way to do this?

AnswerID: 464914

Follow Up By: avidcamper - Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 20:43

Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 20:43

I can't figure out how to upload the photos ... maybe it's because I am not a paid member? So I've uploaded them to the net .... here is the link https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=65f662d236b5d109&sc=photos#!/?cid=65f662d236b5d109&sc=photos&nl=1&uc=12&id=65F662D236B5D109!1
I hope this works!

FollowupID: 738864

Follow Up By: avidcamper - Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 20:55

Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 20:55

nope ... that didn't work - I'm sorry - I'll try to think of something else .....

FollowupID: 738866

Follow Up By: avidcamper - Wednesday, Sep 14, 2011 at 07:46

Wednesday, Sep 14, 2011 at 07:46

I've made the photos 'public' so hopefully this will work ......

https://skydrive.live.com/?sc=photos&cid=65f662d236b5d109#!/?cid=65f662d236b5d109&permissionsChanged=1&id=65F662D236B5D109!135

FollowupID: 738884

Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Wednesday, Sep 14, 2011 at 09:01

Wednesday, Sep 14, 2011 at 09:01

Lenita,

Progress!

Your photos show that the Ctek charger is an up-market mains charger capable of charging at up to 25 amps. A detailed manual is available here. The solar controller looks good too, and the batteries are almost certainly either Gel or AGM. Without lifting one out to read the printing on the side can't tell which.

The function of the red switch is still a bit of a mystery, though it seems likely that , as you have said, it can connect the camper wiring to either or both of it's own batteries and/or the vehicle battery. This could only work if there is no relay in the engine bay to disconnect the feed from there, which is not usual practice.

To get back to your original query "why won't the solar panels work?" Have the panels been used with the camper previously or are they a new addition? I've been assuming that you were adding them, but if they worked previously we are looking at a different set of factors.

Cheers

John

J and V
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Wednesday, Sep 14, 2011 at 10:57

Wednesday, Sep 14, 2011 at 10:57

Further thoughts on the red switch - It is probably used to select either or both of the camper batteries, with one of them being called the "car battery". This makes much better sense than being able to switch the vehicle's own battery into the camper wiring. Suggest check this out by switching to "car battery" (without the vehicle connected) and see if you have lights. If so, it will point pretty solidly to that switch being used to select between the camper batteries and the car battery not being involved.

Cheers

John

J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
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Reply By: Member - John and Val - Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 19:15

Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 19:15

Lenita,

At the bottom of the "reply" screen is a set of buttons - "preview", "submit", etc. One of these is "Insert Image" Click that and enter the details. You will need to navigate to each image on your computer, and give it a caption. Easy!

Cheers

John

J and V
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AnswerID: 464917

Reply By: avidcamper - Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 20:47

Tuesday, Sep 13, 2011 at 20:47

Hi John,

Thankyou once again for your helpful advice re isolating the car battery - my husband will make sure he mentions this to the auto electrician when he drops the car off tomorrow to install the anderson plug.

Cheers,

Lenita

AnswerID: 464927

Reply By: avidcamper - Wednesday, Sep 14, 2011 at 12:16

Wednesday, Sep 14, 2011 at 12:16

Hi John,

Thankyou so much for your patience & follow up on our electrical dilemmas!

First of all, that red switch in the camper boot is described very briefly in the camper information as an isolater switch .... whatever that means - I do wish we had been provided with better instructions & info! I guess that's what happens when purchasing second-hand goods .....

To answer your question regarding the solar panels - I am unsure as to whether they have been previously used, however I assume they must have been since they were sold with the camper. We bought it from a caravan dealer - I don't think he would have 'thrown them in' with the sale. The wiring etc. is all in place. In some ways, it would have been most beneficial to have been able to speak with the original owners .... the dealer really didn't seem to know more than to say 'plug the panels into that anderson plug there' ..... which has proved unsuccesful so far.

We may need to tow the camper to a service centre and have a qualified person look at it and advise how to use it correctly .... perhaps even book it in for a service - although everything seems to be in very good condition ..

I'll post any progress we make on this - hopefully we resolve it before we go away!

Cheers,

Lenita

AnswerID: 464973

Follow Up By: avidcamper - Monday, Sep 19, 2011 at 16:27

Monday, Sep 19, 2011 at 16:27

Following up with progress on our solar panel/electrical dilemmas .... we tried plugging the panels into the anderson plug that would normally be attached to the car ..... voila! They began charging the camper batteries.

We are taking the trailer to an auto electrician tomorrow to help us trace the wiring & to (hopefully) give us some advice on battery charging & care .... and to identify all the various knobs & dials installed in the camper.

He is also installing an anderson plug, plus cable & isolator in the car .....

Hopefully we won't run into any snags on our up-coming short trip away!

Cheers,

Lenita

FollowupID: 739497

Reply By: avidcamper - Wednesday, Sep 21, 2011 at 15:47

Wednesday, Sep 21, 2011 at 15:47

Sorry to be such a pain, but we are still having issues with our folding solar panels. After doing more research, I realised that we have been inadvertently running the risk of damage to our batteries by plugging the solar panels into the anderson plug that should be plugged into the tow vehicle. This bypasses the solar charge controller (I think) - instead (I think) it is wired to the Ctek multi excess 2500 mounted in the trailer near the batteries. (The panels did begin charging - but we decided not to continue since we don't want to cause any damage).

We have been trying, unsuccessfully, to figure out how to get the solar panels to charge the batteries using the second anderson plug in the camper boot (which is apparently designated for solar) - but when we use this plug, the LED display on the back of the panels does not light up - a blue light should flash indicating that the panels are charging the batteries.

Would there be a switch somewhere that is escaping our attention??

Or should this be an automatic operation?

The caravan dealer told us to simply plug the panels in ..... but he didn't appear to know enough to answer our questions. (The camper is second-hand, so we don't know who installed the electrics, unfortunately ...).

The solar charge controller does not appear to have any make or model or serial number, so I can't obtain any info on its operation.

Our auto-electrician didn't feel confident enough to help with the solar side of things ....

We do need help with this - preferably an electrician who is experienced with battery chargers, solar panels ect ...... does anyone here know of such a (wonderful!) person who could help us unravel the mysteries of our camper trailer battery & charging setup?

Do we need to book it in for an unnecessary service somewhere in order to figure all this out?? (I say 'unnecessary' because it has already been serviced by the dealer we purchased it from ......).

Sorry for this long-winded and rather convoluted request for help .... I don't know how to explain all this properly ....

Please see my lilnk to some photos of the trailer batteries, chargers, plugs & dials in an earlier follow-up on this thread.

cheers,

avidcamper

AnswerID: 465664

Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Thursday, Sep 22, 2011 at 09:56

Thursday, Sep 22, 2011 at 09:56

Hi,

Without having a look at your setup and tracing out just what goes where we can't be too certain just what's going on. The setup will though be something like this

Image Could Not Be Found

Click the image to expand it.

There are some unknowns, especially around the purpose of the switch, and just how the batteries are connected. The switch probably operates to select either or both batteries to connect to the loads and charging sources. It may be though that the 2 batteries are permanently connected in parallel (positive terminals connected together, negative terminals connected together, so they function as just a single battery, probably with a single shared fuse) in which case the switch may just be wired for on/off.

I've only drawn the likely positive paths, not the negatives, which will very likely all be simply connected together. Possibly the negative side of the batteries may be connected to the solar controller and everything else then have its negative side connected to an adjacent terminal on this controller.

The physical reality won't look as neat, but you should be able to follow the wires to see if they do in fact connect to the places indicated.

By unscrewing the solar controller from its backing you should be able to identify the 2 input wires from the panels and trace their intended path from panels to controller. This should allow you to find why they aren't cooperating.

Suggest tell us roughly your location. There may well be a willing and able member close by who could quickly sort this one. It is not a complex setup, just hard to put into words!

Please feel free to email me if you'd prefer to discuss less publicly, or by phone. johnandval at exemail dot com dot au [with the obvious corrections!]

I would NOT book it all in for an unnecessary service by someone who probably knows nothing about electrics anyway. It is simple to resolve with a meter, a little knowledge and experience.

Cheers

John

J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
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Follow Up By: avidcamper - Thursday, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:30

Thursday, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:30

Hi John,

First of all - a huge thankyou for you painstaking assistance - very much appreciated.

Your diagram is certainly as we imagine the wiring has been installed - and should be simple, as you say. My husband does not own a voltage meter but intends to purchase one this afternoon - this should help us with our dectective work.

Now .... THE all-important switch! What switch would you be referring to? The circuit breaker? Or the large red & white 'isolator' switch in the boot that I've mentioned earlier (and which is also included in my photos)? Or ... is there another 'magic' switch somewhere that we have failed to notice?

Our logic tells us that the red & white isolator switch relates to where the various loads are drawing their power - ie from the vehicle battery, or from the trailer battery or both ... and it can also be turned to 'off'. Would this be correct?

In other words, it then becomes logical to keep it switched to 'both' whilst travelling - this way, when we stop & unplug the anderson plug to the tow vehicle, power will be automatically drawn from the trailer batteries (remembering, of course, to actually unplug the tow vehicle) ....

Are we, at least, on the right track with this particular item??

To answer you question regarding our location - since we will be leaving for a week long trip tomorrow after lunch, I will send you our address via email (thankyou!) - in the meantime we will use this trip to try and figure out what is going on - at least we'll be staying in a caravan park this time, so can take advantage of their camp kitchen fridge if necessary!

Once again, thankyou so much for your continued help :-)

Cheers,

avidcamper

FollowupID: 739749

Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Thursday, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:57

Thursday, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:57

Hi Lenita,

The switch I was referring to is the red one (the "isolator" switch) shown in your photos. It is my guess that this switch selects either or both (or neither) of the 2 batteries in the camper, to receive charge and to power the rig. It may perhaps, as you suggest, switch between the vehicle battery and camper batteries, but very unlikely. If it does simply switch between the 2 trailer batteries I would opt for always using both together by switching to "both" . If it does involve the vehicle battery, I would expect that the vehicle battery will be disconnected by the controller that you have had fitted in the engine bay, in which case no need to disconnect trailer from vehicle. I'd switch to "both" in this case too.

If power is available at your destination, suggest just plug the Ctek charger into 240V and it should maintain the batteries as well as run the trailer stuff, light, fridge etc.

One major consideration re fridge. (Sorry to throw another worry into the mix, but this is important!) If the fridge is capable of running on gas it is an adsorption type and will be very hungry if running from 12 volts. If it is a compressor type (has a motor like the one at home, and cannot run on gas) then your 2 batteries should run it for a few days. If it is the former type your batteries wont hold up for one day though, recommend either running on gas or connecting it to 240V when stationary.

Have a great trip!

Cheers

John

J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
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FollowupID: 739753

Follow Up By: avidcamper - Thursday, Sep 22, 2011 at 13:55

Thursday, Sep 22, 2011 at 13:55

Hi John,

Another thankyou headed your way!

Good news is that we have a 110 litre Waeco compression fridge (ie cannot run on gas) ...... another reason we bought this trailer! (Apart from the solar power, and that it is an off road Goldstream ....etc.) So we should be able to run the fridge without too many battery issues (provided we can top up the charge with our 'you-beaut' solar panels, of course!).

I have had a little bit of progress with the solar panels. I contacted a supplier who was exceptionally helpful - after chatting with him and, with his guidance, having a look at the bits and bobs attached behind the panels, it seems that one of those attachments is a charge controller unit ..... which means that we should be able to plug the panels into the receiving plug that we have already tested as working ..... so maybe the solar charge controller installed inside the trailer has been disabled??? We need to follow up on this!

With all this wonderful help, we feel we're getting closer to solving this! We will be staying on an unpowered site on our up-coming trip, so will be putiing ourselves and our trailer to the test (don't enjoy being on a concrete pad sandwiched in between caravans ..... only just beginning to adjust to the idea of 'trailer' camping rather than tenting it!!). The plan is for a much longer trip at the end of the year, so it will be good to iron out these teething problems now!

Thankyou again,

Lenita

P.S. In case anyone else knowledgeable is reading this & might be in a position to actually have a look at our trailer wiring etc. we are located in the inner western suburban area of Sydney ..... your help would be immensely appreciated!

FollowupID: 739758