Troubleshooting a diesel starting problem
Submitted: Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 18:48
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napalm_999
This issue has only cropped up in the last day or two and like all good car issues, is intermittent, which means I’m struggling to troubleshoot it. It’s a 2004 3L turbo diesel D22 Nissan Navara. 3 times over the last 2 days, I’ve got into the car to kick it over and it goes grrrrrrrrruuuuuug just once for a second and then kicks over and off we go. Sounds like starting a car with a flat battery (not sure if grrrrrrrruuuuug is the right noise), however voltage was fine each time. First time it happened she had only been off for less than an hour. Second and third time, a couple of hours. Get in the car this morning after 10 hours of being off and started just fine. I’m just worried the time where it does go grrrrrrruuuuuug followed by nothing else, will be in the middle of the bush.
Has anyone ever had something like this happen before? I’m taking guesses at the starter motor but that’s just a wild guess.
Thanks for your help fellas!
Reply By: Member - A Team - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 19:15
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 19:15
Could be heat sink through the starter motor or the starter relay being that the problem happens when the vehicle engine is hot/warm.
If the problem happens again pour cool
water over the starter to see if that helps.
All the best.
AnswerID:
468957
Follow Up By: napalm_999 - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 19:29
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 19:29
A-team to the rescue!
Thanks for the advice, I'll keep that in mind if it does stop the car altogether. The heat thing might be a factor too. I'll wait to see if it happens when it's completely cool.
Cheers
FollowupID:
743273
Reply By: Axle - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 19:27
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 19:27
OH Dear!!,... I have the same problem with a excavator.
Is something wrong with the batteries?
Is sometthing up with wiring?
Is some thing wrong with the computer?
Is something wrong with the starter motor?
is something wrong with the ignigtion switch?
is something wrong with the way the frigin thing was built in the first place??.
Or is it the way of the modern world of electrics??
One thing for sure when all the experts are finished with their testing.its a Maybe of gigantic proportions!!.....LOl
Hope you get to the problem real quick
Cheers Axle.
AnswerID:
468958
Follow Up By: napalm_999 - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 19:31
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 19:31
argh thanks Axle! Freaking me out. This isn't the first time I've had the "idunno" of problems. I shoud go into the new car testing market, except no cars would ever hit the ground!
FollowupID:
743274
Follow Up By: Member - MUZBRY(Vic) - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 21:11
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 21:11
Gday Axle
Check the operator, they know all the tricks.
The anti start switch under the
seat, loosen off the earth strap ,loosen the fuel filter then tighten. you know, little things like that will give them the odd hour off .
FollowupID:
743287
Reply By: peter m26 - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 20:01
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 20:01
hi
to start with i would get the battery load tested , check alternator charge rate , check all battery cable leads ands termials before i blame the starter motor lots of people like to blam items before testing correctly
bye peter
( ps ive been a mechanic fore 36 years )
AnswerID:
468961
Follow Up By: napalm_999 - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 20:09
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 20:09
Cheers Peter,
The only reason I ruled the battery out is because every time I've gone to start the car and this issue has occured, the battery has been sitting at 12.5 or above, which should be enough to kick it over.
That's a good point about the lead and terminals though, I'll definitely check them out.
FollowupID:
743278
Follow Up By: Rockape - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 20:38
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 20:38
Peter has a good point, 12.5v means nothing with no load. Go and get it checked, it costs you nothing.
It is a starting point.
FollowupID:
743281
Follow Up By: peter m26 - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 20:56
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 20:56
ih peter again
you need to load test the battery 12.5 volts is low fore are battery anyway
are good battery shoud be 13.1 at lest , the charge rate needs to be 13.8 to14.2 , when you load test are battery it will drop to 8 volts under load
go and test the battery
bye peter
FollowupID:
743284
Follow Up By: Member - Serendipity(WA) - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 20:58
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 20:58
Having had a similar problem with a previous car I would third support Peter and Rockape.
Check the battery load. It can seem fully charged but at the end of its life. Overnight the battery can settle and start just fine. Driving the car with a little load from the battery and it will struggle.
After the battery just check the earth points on the car - these can become corroded and not allow a proper earth. Especially the one from the starter motor.
Always go from the simplest and easiest to fix then to the harder ones. Most times it is the easier ones.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: napalm_999 - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 21:13
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 21:13
Alrighty guys, thanks very much for your help. Sounds like that's worth checking. I'll look into getting a load test done on the battery.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: peter m26 - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 21:40
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 21:40
hi
dont foreget the alternator charge rate
read my nerd mail again
peter
FollowupID:
743296
Follow Up By: farouk - Tuesday, Nov 01, 2011 at 10:34
Tuesday, Nov 01, 2011 at 10:34
Peter,
I would have to disagree with your assumption that a 12 v battery should read at LEAST 13.1 volts otherwise it is no good.
Measuring the open circuit voltage (OCV) while in storage provides a reliable indication as to the state-of-charge of the battery. A voltage of 2.10V at room temperature reveals a charge of about 90 percent. Such a battery is in good condition and needs only a brief full charge prior to use. If the voltage drops below 2.10V, the battery must be charged to prevent sulfation. Observe the storage temperature when measuring the open circuit voltage. A cool battery increases the voltage slightly and a warm one lowers it. Using OCV to estimate state-of-charge works best when the battery has rested for a few hours, because a charge or discharge agitates the battery and distorts the voltage.
I take the point that under load a battery showing 12.5 v under load could break down but to say that the OCV of a battery should show at least 13.1 v is totally incorrect and misleading. A 12v battery showing 12.6 volts is classified a fully charge battery
Colin
FollowupID:
743324
Follow Up By: peter m26 - Tuesday, Nov 01, 2011 at 22:25
Tuesday, Nov 01, 2011 at 22:25
colin
the information is correct about OCV 2.1 volts per cell = 12.6 volts
good in theory anybody can read it from are book BUT in the real world I have see batterys with 13.1 volts plenty of times
I realy dont think napalm needs to know the ins and outs of are battery and dont tell him that power flows from - to + that
well realy f##k his day
all the guy wanted was are bit of help
peter
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: farouk - Wednesday, Nov 02, 2011 at 10:36
Wednesday, Nov 02, 2011 at 10:36
Yes you are dead right Peter, all Napalm wanted was a bit of advice, but certainly not misleading advice, I have owned vehicles for 63 years and I can honestly say I have only ONCE seen a battery OCV of 13 volts, so to imply that if a battery as per your post
you need to load test the battery 12.5 volts is low fore are battery anyway
are good battery shoud be 13.1 at lest
Is as I said misleading which is what you have now implied by saying quote "I have seen "
Re the info I copied and pasted, perhaps I could have found info not quite so long but I am sure that info would not have confused or worried Napalm as continually taking batteries back to the retailer because they would not show a OCV reading of 13.1
Colin
FollowupID:
743385
Follow Up By: peter m26 - Thursday, Nov 03, 2011 at 00:01
Thursday, Nov 03, 2011 at 00:01
colin
so you have seen it once , you mite have had are lot of cars , the OCV means nothing when you are testing are battery
please refer to my first post on what to do
the retailer would do are load test
peter
ps i bet you are lawer
FollowupID:
743449
Reply By: Member - Scrubby (VIC) - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 23:13
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 23:13
Try starting it with headlights and
driving lights on.
This will test if the battery has enough grunt or not.
Cheers
Scrubby.
AnswerID:
468979
Reply By: get outmore - Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 23:19
Monday, Oct 31, 2011 at 23:19
easy fix
step 1 - throw battery away
step 2 - buy and fit new battery
fixed
AnswerID:
468980
Reply By: Member - Longtooth (SA) - Tuesday, Nov 01, 2011 at 12:39
Tuesday, Nov 01, 2011 at 12:39
Before you get too fraught, clean your earth terminal on both the battery and the earth point on the body. Saw a vehicle stuck in the Simpson a few years ago with this problem. All the food went off in the fridge too because of a dirty earth terminal.
Let us all know the result
Longtooth
AnswerID:
469005
Reply By: toohey - Tuesday, Nov 01, 2011 at 17:42
Tuesday, Nov 01, 2011 at 17:42
g'day
napalm
same thing with my 3lt navara,it was the battery.
cheers toohey
AnswerID:
469015
Reply By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Nov 02, 2011 at 13:26
Wednesday, Nov 02, 2011 at 13:26
Firstly a battery directly from charge could read anything up to 14 or more volts, depending on the charging voltage, BUT after the battery has been rested for more than an hour or two it is unlikly to read much more than 12.5-12.7 volts.
The voltage reading of a rested battery will give an accurate indication of its state of charge but it will not give an accurate indication of its health.
Yes you can get your battery load tested at the battery
shop, but it is easier to do a couple of things yourself.
#1 if there is a date stamp or a date sticker on the battery look at that.......if it is more than 4 or 5 years old its a pretty danm good chance that it is due for replacement...the best I have ever got from a car battery was 7 years..but it was probaly out of spec long before that..the car in question started very easily.
#2 take a reasonably fast responding multimeter or voltmeter and read the voltage directly from the battery terminals while the engine is cranked......if it drops below 10 volts from a recently charged battery..pretty good chance it needs replacement.....a good realy healty battery of the right size may not drop below 11-11.5 Volts in some vehicles.
If you suspect cables or other links you can use the multimeter to
check for voltage drop across those cables and links...expect some regardless but not much.
Diesels do not tolerate batteries in poor condition.......lots of compression and they need to be spun up reasonably fast.
With a petrol motor in good tune all you need is one half hearted compression stroke and a spark & they will fire.
A diesel needs the piston slammed to the top, and they start better in warm weather.
Yeh do all the usual checks but a new battery sounds like it is on the cards.
cheers
AnswerID:
469062
Reply By: Member - Trouper (NSW) - Wednesday, Nov 02, 2011 at 17:43
Wednesday, Nov 02, 2011 at 17:43
Had a similar problem in the 78 series, ie good 1 minute bad the next. Turned out to be a 'not good connection of the earth lead off the starter motor.
worth a
check
regards..................jeff
AnswerID:
469076
Reply By: napalm_999 - Friday, Nov 11, 2011 at 09:34
Friday, Nov 11, 2011 at 09:34
Thanks for all the help guys.
Maybe just me concentrating on trying to find the issue has caused it not to happen again. Nevertheless, I've put it down to an emotional, old battery and will be replacing it sooner rather than later.
Keeping an eye on my battery monitor it shows the battery dropping to around 9-10v's when cranking so looks like that's the cause.
I’ve done a couple of solid drives recentrly which I think may have helped the battery up.
Cheers
NAPALM
AnswerID:
469727