another solar question sorry

And keep in mind too that Inverters are inefficient and there is power loss accross them so it is better to run 12v wherever you can otherwise you are "wasting" power. I think you would need huge panels and lots of batts to power aircons. Maybe open a window instead.

There are actually agricultural bore pumps that are designed to run directly from solar panels without batteries.

Excellent comments.

Hi Bantam
You are not alone with your opinions
But it seems inverters are the" IN THING" despite the dangers & impracticalities

NOTE: a RCD give absolutely no protection with an INVERTER OR GENERATOR plugged into a van power inlet
The RCD is not functional even though the test button trips it

Portable RCDs as on Arlec & Clipsal type portable outlet boxs also GIVE NO PROTECTION

The information on using RCDs with generators & inverters in two articles on this forum is wrong & out of date[ it did apply to early small portable non isolated inverters [which are now not available for sale in AUS,but be careful of Ebay ,]but not to generators .
Peter

Damn right.

And so many people simply do not want to hear it.

An earth leakage breaker is no protection at all, without a permanent and properly installed earthing system..properly bonded to the greater mass of earth.

And no you can not drive an earth stake as recomended in many of the manuals that come with inverters.

Portable inverters and to only a sligtly lesser extent generators are in my opinion little portable boxes of death, and being fitted with an earth leakge breaker makes them no safer.

I am horified about some of the compliance issues on camper trailers.

Oh yeh...portable 240V as a last resort and be incredibly carefull.

cheers

Get over it gents – portable gensets and inverters, whilst not having the same level of safety as RCD protected devices, are a fact of life - nothing is 100% risk free. In a practical sense nothing replaces a genset for battery charging backup, microwaves or air conditioners.

Dennis, like most people I realy don't think you grasp the level of risk.

Because of the absence of a permanent and properly installed earthing system neither the simple fuse nor the RCD units will operate as they are designed and expected to in a pemanent situation.....in many situations they will offer absolutely no protection at all.

Combine that with a situation where they are frequently being used in weather exposed, metal surrounded, potentially damp situations or otherwise high risk situations.

Additionaly combine that with a situation where people think no further than just plugging in and expecting whatever it is to work "just like at home"

We have a situation where the level of risk is massivly elivated.

We live in a situation in our homes where due to installation & wiring rules, electrical licencing, appliance standards and in particular, compulsory fitting of RCDs ( safety switches) the likelyhood an innocent person getting a fatal electrical shock is practicaly nill....and peoples attitudes and expectations reflect that.

In the camping/ caravanning /4wd situations, portable 240Volt supply devices are frequently used and installed by unqualified people, with no regard for any regulations or standards and in complete ignorance of the considerably elivated risks involved.

In particular complete ignorance of the fact that the fuses and RCD devices fitted or used with the portable supply devices may provide absolutely no protection from fatal electric shock in a wide range of situations.

Sure genn sets and inverters are a fact of life.....but people need to understand the high level of risk involved.

In many situations the best way to manage that risk is simply not to use them when they are unnecessary, which would account for a very large portion of the use they are put to.

As far as charging batteries...if that is the only use you have for a generator, best to purchase a machine with a DC as the primary output, that will charge the batteries a hell of a lot faster than you could by any means from a 240 V generator.

If you are running an airconditioner chances are you have a hard bodied caravan, in that case the risks involved are far far lower, particularly within the permanent hard body of the caravan...in fact if built to regulation near to the safety level in a home......once you step outside that door however all bets are off.

What is realy frightening in people using inverters & gennies in tents, soft bodied campers, 4wds and stand alone outdoor situations, with little understanding of the dangers.

People have been killed or injured, in this country and recently.

cheers

Further, there re inherant risks involved with battery powered inverters.

Such that In QLD it is illegal to have or use a battery powered 240V inverter on any construction site.

The construction site is the industrial equavalent of camping.

Gived you some idea of the seriousness of the issue.

cheers

Your concern others safety is appreciatted.

I have a very low level of risk of electrocution.

My genset is totally enclosed, on the van’s bumper bar and operates in all weather conditions.

The fact that the van is often plugged into town power means my van’s RCD will test the appliances for earth faults on a regular basis.

The inside of the van has carpet on timber floors and it is difficult to create an earthed situation.

I do use an inverter, when not on 240 volt, with double insulated or plastic bodied devices like telephone chargers and computer power supplies. If I ever had the occasion to run a metal bodied single insulated device off of it, I wouldn’t run an extra device from it at the same time.

Not that I have 2 inverters, but if I did I wouldn't run both at the same time if they or their appliances were in touching distance of each other.

Regards Dennis

Hi Dennis
Yes , your setup is reasonably safe'
Perhaps If you had posted THOSE additional details others would be aware of the special precautions necessary
Of course if the genny or inverter is connected into the van wiring, via the power inlet socket,you will most certainly have more than ONE class1 devise connected.
#1 recommendation "NEVER CONNECT MORE THAN ONE CLASS1 devise

The van itself is a class 1 devise & i do assume you still have some exposed earthed metal. ,possibly window & door frames , gas stove , fridge, etc.

Deaths & shocks have occurred using both inverters & generators

To such an extent that it is now mandatory for all to have a fully functional PERMANENTLY fitted RCD ,when used in the building & construction industries.

Hi Bantam
Good to see You understand
I have been a lone voice on many forums for a long time
Amazing how many electricians seem to not understand that a fully isolated supply is only safe while it remains fully isolated
Once a line to earth fault occurs ANYWHERE in the system it is no longer an isolated supply ,with ALL the attendant risks & if that fault is after the RCD ,the RCD will not protect /be operational

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN MANY CASES

Also good to see support for the fact that EARTH STAKES Or any other means of direct connection [water pipes steel building frames etc, should not be used with PORTABLE generators OR INVERTERS

Peter

Hi Peter
I can understand that with your involvement in the industry - you need to educate people to the dangers of portable gensets - I am not saying they are risk free.

The convenience of having a genset outweighs my concern for the risk of electrocution – as long as I use it sensibly.

There is a risk of electrocution where ever electricity is used, but as far as portable gensets are concerned, it doesn’t seem so great that the regulatory authorities deem it necessary to provide extra protection, when used in non-commercial applications such as recreational caravans etc.

Regards Dennis

The problem is......... there is absolutly no way of providing aditional protection for portable 240 volt sources.

The mandatory RCDs realy do very little and are simply mandated because that is all that is available to mitaget the risks.


All these devices can be used with quite reasonable safety as long as people are aware of and understand the risks...then take steps to mitaget them.

The problem is that the vast majority are dangerously ignorant.

If you have a hard bodied caravan properly connected to the permanent mains such as in a caravan park or at home, you have the protection of the earthing system provided by the grid.....you only have to consider outdoor and metal associated risks as normal.

If we are talking about a large hard bodied caravan, that is built strictly to code, all the circuit protection including the RCD should work more or less as expected INSIDE the caravan...because the caravan represents a controlled self contained earthed environment..the chasis approximating the greater mass of earth to which everything is bonded and referenced.

BUT

As soon as you step out the door into the annex or onto the ground outside, the caravan now represents a metal cassed appliance attached to a floating supply with uncertain earth conditions.

You must consider.
Your electrical maintenance must be absolutely fastidious.
All leads and appliances must be 100%, likewise any wiring or connections permanently installed.

Your RCD unit does not test anything, it can not even test its self adequately.

It is a realy good idea to have both the caravan and all the appliances tested by a licenced electrical worker regularly.

In a controlled environment such as a home or workshop, the electrical system is designed to cope with multiple interacting faults and still provide a level of protection.

Outside of that environment a single critical fault can kill.

And you must be absilutly conciencious about safe use of electrical appliances.

Not running electrical appliances on metal tables or surfaces.

Being very aware of wet or damp situations......bare ground or grass must be considered wet and conductive.

wear dry insulating footwear when operating appliances

Being very very aware of leads being trapped and damaged or cut by metal items like doors, windows, folding things and sharp edges.

Have only 1 metal cassed item connected at any one time, and prefeer double insulated items by strong preference.

turn off and isolate from the DC supply any inverter when not in use.

cheers

Hi Bantam

Actually an approved devise is now available for use with fully isolated power supplies, That can replace the existing RCD in the van
"Universal RVD" by Proelec
It works with both isolated power supplies & earthed neutral /men systems
when a MEN supply is connected to the van inlet it performs as a standard RCD.
When an isolated suplly is connected it moniotors that condition & if an earth to line fault develops ANYWHERE in the system , it sets itself to monitor for that 2nd possibly deadly fault & trips with around 5ma & as shorter time than standard RCD
It does not rely on current balance but monitors voltages to earth
Peter

That may be so, but it can still only act upon faults related to an earth connected to the same earth reference.

Without a reliable earthing system no device can reliably protect from electric shock.

It an no device can provide protection from an active to neutral shock.

nor can any device protect against shock in a situation that involves active and neutral and some sort of isolated metal object like a metal table standing on plastic feet or the metal frame or poles of a tent or camper trailer canopy.

We live in a society that seeks to PROTECT, unfortunately this is a set of circumstances where PROTECTION can not be relied upon.

We must instead use other forms of risk management such as AVOIDANCE, SUBSTITUTION or ADINISTRATIVE CONTROLLS.....( any body involved in industrial safety will know where these are comming from)

We need to AVOID situations where the risks are high, such as running 240 V lighting and appliances in tents and soft top campers, particularly in wet or damp weather.....avoid running metal cassed earthed appliances where possible, especially avoid having more than one metal cassed earthed item connected at one time.....and avoid any electrical practice that would in normal situations be even slightly dodgy.
Avoid things that simply are not necessary, do you realy need to take microwave, and electric toaster or a hair drier camping

We are best to SUBSTITUTE other devices and sources of energy for 240V AC supply. Almost everything that has a battery in it can be charged or operated directly from 12 V DC, this includes laptops, phones, radios and cameras.
There is a wide variety of items in this day and age that operate direct off 12 volts and more efficiently than the 240V equavalent, LED lighting in particular.
Cooking or heating using gas has always been more efficient than electricity even on mains supply.

Managing by ADMINISTRATIVE CONTROL is having thaught about it first and determined what is going to be done and why and making it known to those involved....and even to the point of not making certain options available.

You may have a microwave, a toaster and a hotplate all metal cassed earthed items.......they may be used arround your camper trailer off a generator using the inbuilt wiring.

By providing a plastic or wodden topped table, and only a single 240V outlet that is beyond reach of the stanless kitchen unit and discussing the fact that we only plug in one of these items at any time and only in dry weather......we have reduced the risks considerably.
Manage the risks even better by leaving all 3 at home.

And here lies the critical matter.........we have to have thaught about it first and we have to have been informed about the risks before hand.

NOT simply grabbed a whole pile of 240V appliances from home and decided to take them camping.......as happens all to frequently.


I know this thread has got a quite a bit away from the original post...but unfortunately we have become accustomed to plugging in electrical appliances at home with little or no thaught.

When we travel however particularly using portable sources of 240 V supply, we have to think about an manage a range of issues that are already dealt with in the heavily regulated and highly capable electrical systems in our homes.

cheers

Hi Bantam.
You do go overboard a bit with this.
My wife won’t leave home without the hairdryer, microwave, and a number of her other home comforts. Our risk of getting electrocuted from our genset or inverter is extremely low, but to go into all the different scenarios, would be too long winded, to be of interest to most people on this thread.
Regards Dennis

YEh as I said some people simply wont be told.

cheers