Cooked battery

I had a sulphurous smell invading the cabin,at 1st I thought my old staffy was making it,but it was still there after she was removed from the landcruiser.

I had a look under the bonnet and found the aux battery was too hot to touch so I left it and disconnected it the next morning.

I thought both batteries were 710cca,but as my son pointed out,one is 710 and the other 600cca.
It is the newer 710 that is cooked.
They were not the same brand either,the 710 was a Delkor and the older smaller one was a Challenge.

Im wondering if I should have changed them around more often,the 600 has always been the cranking battery. They are only in paralel when the engine is running.
I use the aux battery for keeping the deep cycle in the camper topped when Im on the road.
The alternator is charging ok.
My next step will be to buy 2 batteries of the same brand and construction.

Any of the electrical wizzes here want speculate on whats happened?
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Reply By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 11:32

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 11:32
Hi Ross,

the Delkor seems to have suffered a shorted cell and the remaining 5 cells got over-charged by the alternator which made the battery smell and get hot.

Because this battery isn't a real deep cycle battery, it would have shed a lot of active material which would have piled up at the bottom of the battery container. This pile is conductive and as it touches the bottom of the electrodes they consequently get shorted out.

Most flooded batteries you put under the bonnet are prone to this, under the same adverse operating conditions.
Shedding of active material can be delayed by glass mat separators between the electrodes.
There are some flooded type batteries around which have this additional barrier.

cheers, Peter
AnswerID: 471864

Follow Up By: ross - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 11:53

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 11:53
I knew it wasnt a deep cycle,I really wanted the battery as a back up for the cranking battery.I can swap them around when the cranking goes flat.
An auto electrician told me battery switches have a certain amount of resistance in them,so I went with the simpler method
I thought it would be ok to have it connected to a AGM deep cycle via a solenoid to keep the deep cycle charged when Im moving.
Its only been used like this sporadically,maybe 60 hrs in the last 18 months.

It did go through some adverse conditions out to Steep Point 2 weeks ago.
Before I left,both wet cells had 12.8volts with the engine off and about 13.5 with the engine running.
The dead Delkor now has just over 10v so you are probably correct about the dead cell.
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FollowupID: 746586

Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 13:01

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 13:01
Hi Ross,

if I understand you right, the aux battery under the bonnet was basically intended as a spare starting battery.

You probably know that the temperature under the bonnet will shorten battery life regardless of it being used or not.

Why not forget about the aux under the bonnet, and just use the AGM house battery for emergency cranking?
You could even leave the AGM in there for a while, until you get to a place where you can buy a flooded starting battery.

And for the spare AGM battery, this can be purchased before the trip, and packed away somewhere until you need it (low self discharge rate, no liquids to spill...).

cheers, Peter


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FollowupID: 746591

Follow Up By: ross - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 17:58

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 17:58
The aux battery is in the cooler spot and I only have the AGM when the camper is on the back.
I tried a fully charged, wet 100a deep cycle once before to start the diesel and it barely turned it over.
Why would a AGM 100A do any better?
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FollowupID: 746640

Follow Up By: ross - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 18:14

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 18:14
My other 600cca starting battery is working fine so I dont need another straight away.

I know heat deteriorates batteries,every car is hot under the bonnet,but compared to most vehicles the HZJ75 engine bay is cavernous with plenty of ventilation.
Im just confused as to why the newer larger battery gave up the ghost 1st.
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FollowupID: 746646

Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 18:31

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 18:31
@ Marty,

charging voltage is only one side of the equation.
In the OP's case it looks like the Delkor was subject to deep cycling which kills any flooded battery rather sooner than later.
That's because deep cycling causes the grids inside the battery to expand/contract which squeezes out a little bit of active material on every cycle. And that's an effect not related to charging voltage.

@ Dunc,

Optimas are a different kettle of fish in that they're sealed VRLA batteries which can actually build up enough internal pressure to make them swell. The overpressure relief valves are useless if the battery case softens due to high ambient temps. The battery case expands before the valves see enough pressure to vent.
Remember what it feels like, using your lungs to inflate an air balloon?
It requires lots of pressure to get the first puff of air into them. But once they start to grow bigger, it becomes easy work.
This is how it works with the overpressure relief valves.
Either they open during the early stages of heating when there's max pressure, or they don't in which case, even at decreasing pressure, the battery continues to swell.

@ Ross,

..I tried a fully charged, wet 100a deep cycle once before to start the diesel and it barely turned it over.
Why would a AGM 100A do any better?..

Batteries constantly lose capacity after having reached their peak early in their life. It's like filling up a fuel tank which slowly but steadily shrinks in volume - the fuel gauge (voltmeter) signals full, but the actual amount of fuel (Ah and cranking power) remains unknown.
So your wet 100Ah deep cycle (there is no such thing BTW), may have lost much of its original oomph which led you to the wrong conclusion.

A new and well maintained 100Ah battery can deliver all the current you want for cranking at above zero temperatures.

...Im just confused as to why the newer larger battery gave up the ghost 1st...

Three possibilities:
1) it was subject to deeper discharges more often than your starting battery was.
2) it could have been exposed to more shocks and vibration if it was mounted closer to the axle than your starting battery.
2) it was a dud from beginning on.


cheers, Peter
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Follow Up By: Member - Duncan W (WA) - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 19:47

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 19:47
Peter mine did vent and to make matters worse my aux battery is installed in the back of my vehicle due to lack of engine space. When it happened I thought my mate had farted at first. We checked all the usual things other than the aux battery but it wasn't until I got home and noticed moisture on my rear side window that it dawned on me what was happening. I now keep a lot closer notice of what is happening with the battery.
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Follow Up By: ross - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 23:59

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 23:59
Peter,you say there is no such thing as a wet 100ah deep cycle battery. I thought it was more to do with the thickness of the plates.
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Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Thursday, Dec 08, 2011 at 09:59

Thursday, Dec 08, 2011 at 09:59
Ross,

plate thickness is only one parameter albeit the most important one.
The other two are plate surface area (number of plates), and the crystalline structure of the active materials.

Because of physical size constraints, those three parameters need to be optimised in the factory, according to the intended type of battery application.

It's not economical to produce different types of grids for starting and cyclic use 12V wet batteries, so the only variables are number of plates and crystalline structure. Both can be easily adjusted during the production process.

On the other hand, the chosen grid/plate thickness remains constant, and has to be thin enough to allow for a higher plate number for starting batteries with high CCA ratings (high surface area).

Now, if you wanted to use the same thin plates for a cyclic use battery, you have to adjust the crystalline structure.
And this can be done in the so called plate forming process.

But there's a limit to the max/min crystal size so the variability is only 15%.
So if the plates were formed for starting, this battery will offer 15% higher performance over a cyclic use battery.

If you wanted to put the emphasis on cyclic performance (less tendency to shed), you'd optimise the crystalline structure for better adherence to the grids (different plate forming parameters) which comes at the cost of lower battery performance in both current density, and capacity.

If you really wanted true deep cycle performance from a wet battery, you need to look at 6V or 2V traction types which use grids designed exclusively for cyclic use (greater thickness).


cheers, Peter
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Reply By: MartyB - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 15:31

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 15:31
Hi Ross,
How old is the Delkor, possibly you could get a warranty claim. I use a Delkor for a start battery plus another one for an auxillary battery (running engle mainly). Both are a couple of years old and working fine. Vehicle is a Disco which runs at 14.4v and I have found the Delkors give the longest life with this high voltage.

from Marty.
AnswerID: 471883

Follow Up By: ross - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 18:02

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 18:02
I got the Delkor from Supercheap but dont have a receipt and I think it must be close to 2 years old.
Ive always had a good run from Delkor too which is why I bought it in the 1st place
Ive got a price on 2 Challenge 600cca for $115 each ,mates rate.
I think my landcruiser is pushing out about 13.9v
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Reply By: Member - Duncan W (WA) - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 16:20

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 16:20
I had a similar problem with 2 Optima batteries. Each one vented and blew up like a football. Both only about 3mths old at the max and both replaced under warrenty. Auto sparky said he'd never seen anything like it. Battery supplier said that the Optimas aren't biult where they used to be and aren't to the same quality as they used to be?
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Follow Up By: ross - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 18:08

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 18:08
What colour were the Optimas? A lot of American's on internet forums say the Optimas are not what they used to be as well.
I think they were made in the US but are now made in Mexico.

Im glad I got to mine before it got worse.Although the vents seem to be working as I can see where acid has run down the outside of the battery under the vents.
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Follow Up By: Member - Duncan W (WA) - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 19:43

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 19:43
Ross they were the Yellow one. Since then I've had the new expensive Redarc battery management gizmo installed and no problems.
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Reply By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 23:01

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 23:01
lets not over complicate the issue.

You have had a battery failure.....it happens.

I Doubt very much that changing the batteries arround would have helped anything.

Normal lead acid batteries have a design lifespan of arround 2 years, anything you get after that is a bonus, particularly if you are stressing the battery some how, like deep cycling, heat, vibration

I gather you have checked you charging voltage?.

The dis-simmilar batteries issue realy only comes into play when the batteries are permenently joined together......if they are seperately discharged like in a dual battery system, they will act as dis-similar even if identical.
But that should not be a worry.

My view is that going to a rugged construction battery such as a marine, 4wd or truck battery is very worthwhile.

As mentioned most of these will have glass mat between the cell plates which greatly reduces the effects of vibration.
( this does not make it an AGM battery)

Personally I am convinced that modern rugged construction, wet, sealed maintenence free batterys are good value for money and that old style screwtop batteries realy arent any more, they are just cheap.

The addition of calcium to some of the plates ( and other stuff) allows them to seal the battery but it also improves the performance and life span.

I run two cranking batteries because I expect to winch off both and because a deep cycle or more exotic battery will cost a lot more and in my situation I don't see the benifit V cost.

so when buying a rugged construction battery don't worry too much about the marketing on the label.

century for instance market a yellow and a blue battery, one labeled boating the other labeled 4wd...appart from the colour and the sticker they are identical.

Supercharge do not market a 4wd battery, but their "marine battery" is just as applicable in a 4wd.

Personally I like the "Supercharge Seamaster Gold", they have a pretty good rep among boaties.
The good thing about the gold, is that it is a sealed battery BUT, once it is out of waranty, you can peel the sticker off the top and this reveals the vent/valves which are screwed into standard screwtop fittings, so you can top the battery up should it have lost any electrolite.


The accounts in this post realy show that we should not be putting batteries of any type in non-vented locations, and we realy have to think twice about fitting any battery inside a vehicle.

cheers
AnswerID: 471924

Follow Up By: ross - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 23:57

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2011 at 23:57
I leaning toward the dud battery theory.The alternator is charging ok,its not that old and its obviously charging the cranking battery just fine.
The Delkor was a Delkor Calcium.
Ill just reiterate,it did very little deep cycling,it was only connected to the deep cycle battery in the back when moving.
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FollowupID: 746681

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Thursday, Dec 08, 2011 at 11:55

Thursday, Dec 08, 2011 at 11:55
Delcor make decent batteries.....but every manufacturer has a failure once in a while.

If its dropped a cell that should be easy to spot.

The getting hot under charge is a dead set, red flag.

If it has been on charge and it still measures less than 12 volts in particular leass then 10 volts..thats pretty certain.

if it shows signs of stress on one cell, like loss of electrolite in 1 cell, fluid venting from 1 cell or almost anything unusual involving only 1 cell...that is pretty damn certain that it has dropeed a cell.

If the battery is yound and been well treated it should be a warranty job.

cheers
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FollowupID: 746708

Reply By: ross - Thursday, Dec 08, 2011 at 15:33

Thursday, Dec 08, 2011 at 15:33
Thanks to all that replied ,especiall Battey Value and Bantam.
AnswerID: 471969

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