Snake Bite Kits

Submitted: Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 15:04
ThreadID: 91003 Views:3812 Replies:16 FollowUps:55
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Hi All

Just wondering what people are carrying in their 1st aid kits for snake bites?

I have a personal kit for hiking and carry 3 extra compression bandages, 2 wide and 1 medium.

What are your suggestions?


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Reply By: MEMBER - Darian, SA - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 15:27

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 15:27
Yep - compression bandages, immobilisation and expert medical help SAP is the current thing - panic, profanities, condy's crystals, a red hot knife, booze and taking the snake with you have all fallen into disfavour (largely :-o).
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 15:34

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 15:34
unfortunatly not just google snake bit kit and youll find all manor of cut and suck equipment for sale

very popular OS i had a job where i had to babysit geos on bushwalks and the OS ones i had to tell if they were bitten and pulled out there sucking things i would have to break there hand so they couldnt interfere with me applying the compression bandages i carried
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Follow Up By: Member - Royce- Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 20:23

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 20:23
Overseas snakes envenomate into the bloodstream and different treatment is okay ... I'm told by my expert paramedic partner.
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Follow Up By: ian - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 21:33

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 21:33
get outmore,
I don't know to reach you direct, but OS people are correct in using suction for snake bites in North America and for many Asian snakes, and compression should not be used for bites there.
Not valid here, but is correct on other continents due to toxins in OS snake bite venom.
Rgds
ian
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 23:05

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 23:05
I dont believe that our king brown best mimics overseas snakes with its long fangs, weak venom, high venom out put and flesh rotting properties and compression bandage is still the best treatment
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 23:07

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 23:07
we have the wolds most potently venomous snakes and the lowest death rates from snake bites

ill take our treatment thanks
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Follow Up By: Member - Royce- Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 23:19

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 23:19
Ah getoutmore.... I don't think you have followed the discussion very well.
Our snakes are DIFFERENT.... they have a different delivery method to overseas snakes. The venom travels through the lymphatic system with our snakes but can be injected right into the bloodstream with some overseas snakes.

Of course compression bandages are to go here, but I reckon I might consider the appropriate gear if I go hiking in another country.
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 08:01

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 08:01
Im well aware of the discussion and just for starters many snakes overseas actually deliver venom the same way our snakes do
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Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 17:50

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 17:50
A can of Sprite soft drink???? Michael
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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 18:51

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 18:51
Wouldn't Solo would be better ;)

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Reply By: ROODOO2 - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 18:05

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 18:05
Hi Terra'Mer
I endorse the other replys adding the basis of snakebite first aid is compression bandage (to slow poison travel) and immobilisation of bite area and self. To immobilise a limb the best splint is called SAM SPLINT , it is made from aluminium with a foam backing , rolls up to store and shapes to almost any body part . See Ebay USA
The other part of immobilisation is SELF (meaning STAY PUT AND WAIT FOR HELP), noting your plans for the next twelve months the only communication device 100% reliable in the remote tracks you will be on is an EPIRB.Hope this helps a bit as I can see you are doing your homework
MIKE
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Follow Up By: AndyMort - Tuesday, Jan 10, 2012 at 13:57

Tuesday, Jan 10, 2012 at 13:57
Thanks for the tip ROODOO2 - these are now available in OZ and I just orderred one. Google samsplint and it will show up.

Also there is a bandage that has little squares printed on it - if the bandage is too tight or too loose the squares appear as oblong so you are assured of getting the right compression. They were available in oz but I cant remember the name

cheers

Andy

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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Tuesday, Jan 10, 2012 at 15:32

Tuesday, Jan 10, 2012 at 15:32
Thanks

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Reply By: Steve63 - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 18:14

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 18:14
Basically the correct stuff. Some sort of non absorbant dressing like Melolite (?sp) is also handy and should be in any retail kit. Don't clean the bite, place the dressing over the top before the bandages. They can then use the venom id kits to try an id the snake. It was brown and had teeth does not usually help.

Don't make the bandages too tight, you are restricting the lymph not the blood flow. Also useful is to splint the limb as long muscle contraction is what pumps the lymph around. So a few triangular bandages can be handy.

Knowing how to use it is the most important thing.Well executed first aid will give you 15 hours or so according to the literature. If you have not done a first aid course you should. They will give you a fair few more details. By the way there are a lot of other things that bite out there, may of there are also covered in the courses.

Have a good trip.

Steve





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Reply By: Member - Terra'Mer - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 19:04

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 19:04
Thanks Darian, Mike and Steve,

Great advice, I'll follow up on that aluminium/foam splint too. EPIRB or GPS Spot, still tossing up between the two. Probs EPIRB across Larapinta Trail and Alps and GPS Spot around Australia but I may also have a sat phone sponsor interested in helping out.

How much truth or myth is in the story of aboriginals being able to survive snake bites by stopping and laying down where they were bitten for 3 days and then continuing their migration without side effects? I'm not going to try it but I have always wondered if it was true. I guess it depends on what kind of snake they were bitten by.

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Follow Up By: Steve63 - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:42

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:42
Yes I have heard that one as well. The first point is that many snakes dry strike if you startle them. So no venom. If you then lay down down for 3 days you will be having a nice rest. If the snake did unload its venom you would probably be dead so no one to tell the story. I think there is actually more to it than meets the eye. I vaguely remember being told that the bitten limb is kept lower than the rest of the body in a trench or similar. As mere speculation the lymph system is not high presure and in the absence of movement of the limb this "may" act like a restrictive bandage. You would be betting the toxin was going to denature within 3 days and I don't know if this actually happens. Not sure I would be betting my life on it though.

Steve
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 08:23

Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 08:23
In the absence of any medical treatment it would be the best course of action could be a bit in it
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Reply By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 20:53

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 20:53
The core and basis to all first aid kits, and THE most valuable first aid items you can carry are 3 x 4 inch heavy cotton crepe bandages.

That is the minimum required to properly provide for a snake bite on the leg of an adult, and can also be used to provide for bone breakages and a number of other things.

If you carry nothing else, carry those 3 x 4 inch heavy cotton crepe bandages.

The first bandage should start above the bite site and be worked toward the extremity......tension should be even and similar to a sprain.

the second should be started at the top accessable part of the limb and be worked to the extremity..again firm but not tight enough to inhibit blood circulation.

the third should be use to secure the splint.

elivate the limb if possible.

Keep the patient cool, quiet and calm.

putting an nonadherant dressing on the bite site may benifit, and marking the bite site with X on the outside of the bandages will be handy for the medcal people, because they may cut the bandages to access the bite site to avoid removing the bandages.

all sorts of things can be used as a splint.......news papers or magazines work well.....fold the whole mag or paper into a big U shape and bandage it on.....

everybody should do a first aid course.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 22:43

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 22:43
I have heard a few warnings from paramedics and doctors lately about not using crepe bandages for snake bite. They are reminding people to use compression bandages as these are most effective. Of course if you don't have compression bandages, wide crepe will do if, like you explained, it is applied effectively.

I did a Wilderness/Remote Area First Aid Course, a few days longer than the usual 2 day course, and we only worked with compression bandages for snake bite. Crepe is great for the other stuff you mentioned.

Might get another wide compression bandage for my kit, making it 3 wide, 1 med. I already have 4 crepe and 3 triangles. I also used the triangles/slings (I kept spares inside my helmet) as makeshift facemasks when fighting fires, more effective and comfortable than those silly little dust masks. They probably issue better stuff now a days.
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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 22:51

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 22:51
: )
In the Wilderness 1st Aid we were examined on immobilising a snake bite on the butt. Thankfully we had a kit for a guided hike so had enough compression bandages to immobilise from the armpits all the way down to the feet and back. Always look before you squat : )
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 23:53

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 23:53
The issue is the various terms used for bandages...there is sime confusion and lack of specificity.

Light crepe & medium crepe bandages are not good at all for snakebites...but likewise they are not much good for sprains, fractures and the like either...they are intended as a conformal bandage to secure dressings and the like.

The bandages I have in all my kits are labled " heavy cotton crepe" and that is a specific discription...but the description may vary,

To remove the confusion..understand we are looking for the sort of bandage you would use to strap a sprain or the like, it will be a heavy elasticated bandage.

cheers
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Reply By: Member - Marc Luther B (WA) - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 21:11

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 21:11
Hi TerraMer

I would prefer to stay out of things, but this time I am responding. I am no expert, but have twice before dealt with kids here being bitten by snakes.
Firstly, snakes very rarely invenomate on the first strike, and no medical professional will use anti-venom unless certain of invenomation (poison going in).

If there are clear signs of puncture wounds, a small compress directly onto the bite area, taped on, Then, a stick or something similar next to the limb, and the entire limb firmly bandaged, from the top down, (armpit to hand, or groin to foot), will slow the blood movement hence slow the venom travelling through the body. The stick will stop limb movement, hence help slow down the movement of venom. Nearly all bites are on the feet, lower legs or hands.

The wider the bandage, the less chance for any acute compression, therefore the less chance of cutting circulation. Under no circumstances apply a tight wrap, that will stop circulation, a full, wide bandage will sufficiently slow circulation.

In general response, I carry several wide bandages, melolin patches, tape and good scissors (and a heap of other gear), but then where I live, our nearest doctor is the RFDS in an emergency, though we do have a remote area nurse.

Hope this helps a bit, but remember I am not an expert.

Marc
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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 22:11

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 22:11
Hello Marc

It is a common misconception that the aim of a compression bandage is to prevent normal flow of blood. In fact the lymphatic system is responsible for the systemic spread of most venoms and this is why a compression bandage is effective.

Cheers
Greg
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 22:28

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 22:28
Marc,
well said and as you say they won't administer antivenin unless they are sure you have been injected with the poison.

RA.
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Follow Up By: Member - Marc Luther B (WA) - Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 23:47

Wednesday, Jan 04, 2012 at 23:47
Hi Greg
I recall stating not to prevent the flow of blood, but to slow it down. I guess the Doctor from the RFDS misinformed us, or I misunderstood. My apologies.
Marc
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 00:11

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 00:11
The low incidence of sucessfull envenomation is a real issue in snake bite....be thankfull for it.
Most snakes have a very poor hit rate in making a good strike on humans....either the strike misses the mark or the strike is accurate but little or no venom is injected.........it is argued that often they are not trying......but that is beside the point.

In the third world there are many charlotans that claim to be able to cure snake bite...of course they can do nothing of the sort.....but to the uneducated they may seem to be genuine because of this low hit rate.

A couple of our Australian snakes however make far more effective strikes and you have a very good chance with these of getting a fatal hit.

We must therefore take every snake bite serioulsy.

As for the explanation.....we have widely known that most snake venom travels predominantly in the lymph system, since the late seventies.......but explaining what the lymph system is may be considered too complicated by some so they simply say blood instead.

What we need to understand is that a compression bandage over the entire limb as described is the best first aid treatment and the intention is not to stop blood flow.

The use of a tornequet as previously recomended had many problems with the poision pooling below the tornequet and tissue being damage due to the stopped blood flow....among other reasons.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Marc Luther B (WA) - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 00:41

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 00:41
Hi Bantam

I accept what you have said, as for the majority of people where I live, English is a third or even fourth language, so it is more than possible the RFDS instructor did keep it simple.

Because of where we are, the course ran for ten days, and covered a lot of things that are essential knowledge out here, ranging from snake bites, dog bites, various insect bites and general health matters (diabetes, asthma) I think you get the idea. The course was paid for by the Community Store.

It was a fantastic general knowledge course, and I did state that I am no expert.

Marc
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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 01:39

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 01:39
Hi again

Sorry, meant "aim of a compression bandage is to reduce the flow".. not "prevent the flow". ...RE: lymph/blood - was just trying to ensure anybody referencing EO to Wikipedia aren't challenged :)

Cheers
Greg
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 10:22

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 10:22
Hi Marc and thanks for adding your experiences. Mh
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Reply By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 01:11

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 01:11
You've got it Terra'mer

Compression bandages (and something to hold them in place like bandage clips or safety pins). You can unually find sticks or something to make a split. Then use your sat phone for call for assistance and relax. Panic and movement is the worst thing.

Be aware of where you are walking is the best defence. Freeze if you see a snake so it doesn't feel threatened and it will go on its way (as they say - snakes don't go around biting trees). Snakes bites are pretty rare.

More about snakes bites with some useful links Snake Bite First Aid

Motherhen


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Follow Up By: Member - Rich - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 08:43

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 08:43
Hi,
I had a loook at http://www.avru.org/firstaid/firstaid_pib.html and they say to applybthe bandage from below the bite and work up.

I probably have miss understood above but doesbthat gelbwith what has been said by others.

Also where do you get the compression bandages.


Rich
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Follow Up By: Member - Rich - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 10:10

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 10:10
Hi,
I ask where is a good place to get these bandages as ther are many advertised on the internet and as such i suspect many doubtful quality ones being flogged.

After having nearly stood on. A very big brown recently and another close encounter with a black i reckon i should consider taking something with me on my next outing

Richard
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 10:35

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 10:35
Hi Richard

I have noticed a few variations in bandaging techniques, but AVRU are the experts. I was taught in my last first aid course (which i have not not updated over the past few years - a good reminder to do it again, even if an on line mini course) for bites on limbs to start on the site of bite, work down to extremity of limb then up again to the top of the limb. Interesting tale about treating the bite on the butt from Terra'Mer; our course only covered bites on limbs - anywhere else keep patient calm and call an ambulance.

Pharmacies would provide the right type of bandage. I only carry one good quality elasticised bandage and have crepe for the rest of the supply. Caution and be aware and alert plus protective clothing are the best approach.

I live with Dugites in the back yard and no of us have been bitten as yet; including children, grandchildren, cats and dogs. One particularly feisty and hungry one had a go at the pink and grey galah in the aviary but fortunately only got a mouthful of tail feathers. We have lost occasional sheep that MAY have been snakebite.

Mh

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Follow Up By: Member - Marc Luther B (WA) - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 11:21

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 11:21
Hi Mh

I know what you mean about living with snakes, of course we are in the "middle of nowhere" according to many, but we do have a few snakes around. At this time of year the water washes them out of their holes, and we have moved 11 king browns this wet already.

No, if possible we do not kill them, we catch them and move them 30 or 40 km away from the community, as they are part of the land, and do a good job of keeping rodents in check. My wife just reminded me that it is 11 king browns and 4 death adders. We use a large green bin and broom sticks to catch and move them.

Cheers

Marc
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 11:30

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 11:30
As far as good sources of first aid supplies.
Some of the Chemist shops have good supplies of such stuff, but their prices will generally be inflated.

Search out a good competitive first aid supplier, that services the industrial market.

Items that I would pay $1.50 to $2.00 for in a chemist I will pay 30 to 40 cents for at my first aid supplier....and their knoweledge will be far better.

They will also have some items specific to first aid, like single use sachets and wipes of various products, which travel better than tubes and bottles.

In Brisbane, I use Renee Enterprises at Buranda, but there are many like them.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 11:52

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 11:52
Hi Marc

We are lucky that our Shire have a trained snake handler on staff, and they are happy for him to drop everything and go out on a snake call. I discovered this from their newsletter last summer, just prior to us having a large and uncharacteristically not shy Dugite decide to sun itself under a chair near the back door all day every day - where our daughter's kitten wanted to play with it from the chair. This snake would stay there all day - until snake catcher arrived! It took several visits before the snake was caught and relocated. He takes his time and uses something like a rubbish pick up tool to grab them. He actually prefers catching Tiger snakes, because they are more likely to stand their ground than the elusive and shy Dugites. That night, the kitten brought in a very freshly killed dinner - a young Dugite around 2/3 of a metre long, and a couple of days later, daughter was water plants on narrow terraces alongside the house when a big one slithered across her feet (we questioned whether snake catcher took the one he caught far enough away!) Freeze procedure sort of came naturally to her LOL.

I also called him in to collect the one that had a go at the pet Galah which was easy to catch, as he was determined that a feed of Galah was on his menu.

Our Shire also encourage others to do a snake handling course. I sounds like you are the local snake catcher in your community.

Mh
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Follow Up By: Member - Rich - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 13:27

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 13:27
Hi,
I am a bit confused.
From the AVRU site mentioned above they say

As soon as possible, apply a broad pressure bandage from below the bite site, upward on the affected limb (starting at the fingers or toes, bandaging upward as far as possible). Leave the tips of the fingers or toes unbandaged to allow the victim’s circulation to be checked. Do not remove pants or trousers, simply bandage over the top of the clothing.

Isnt this opposite to what people are saying or have i just misread it.


Thanks for help,

Richard
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:03

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:03
Hi Richard

As AVRU pioneered the technique, theirs is probably the 'most correct' method. However the technique relies on slowing down the lymphatic system, so bandaging the limb whatever the direct of bandaging (even tearing up your shirt will do if nothing else is available) and immobilising the limb is the main thing. Like any first aid bandaging, plastering or splinting, circulation must continue hence checking fingers and toes - and re-checking as swelling can occur with tight bandaging. Re-assuring the patient so they remain calm, as in any first aid situation, is particularly important with snake bite. I suspect not taking clothes off is a reducing unnecessary movement and time factor - and normal clothing would make no difference to the end pressure. Any questions can be addressed to AVRU through their website.

However for those on their own, like Terra'Mer, knowledge is all the more important.

Mh

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Follow Up By: Member - Rich - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:10

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:10
MH,
I found the bit below which makes a bit of sense.

The reason i asked was people seem to be saying above do as below but the ARVU sute appears to be saying the opposite, probably my readingof it.

Thanks for replies,

Richard


Place the bandage over the bite and wrap the limb, first away from the heart, then back towards the heart. The finished bandage should reach from just above the fingers or toes as far up the limb as possible with the available materials.
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Follow Up By: Member - Marc Luther B (WA) - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:59

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:59
Hi again Mh

As I have stated, I am not an expert, just a bushie. The wife and I frequently go for walks (that find 30 thing), and we both have sturdy walking sticks that we take. We rarely see any snakes, and apparently (rom what I have been told), they feel the vibrations from the sticks and are gopne before we even see them.

Having said that, Death Adders are stubborn little ones, only small snakes but extremely aggressive when disturbed, we bag them and move them on.

Cheers

Marc
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Reply By: Smudger - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 13:16

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 13:16
There is another alternative..
Read about it here ...Ointment Treatment for Snake Bite
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Follow Up By: Smudger - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 13:20

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 13:20
The Ointment they used is available at Chemists over the counter , it's called Rectogesic
More info: Rectogesic Ointement snakebite treatment
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:14

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:14
Hi Smudger; an interesting find.

From its name you can see why the product is sold for at the pharmacy. The article then talks about trials with rats on slowing down venom flow through the lymphatic system. It may be something worth taking for non limb bites for someone remote and unable to get medical help, and if not needed for that - there is always the original use of the product.

"Even though we don’t know exactly how much additional time this ointment will buy in bitten humans, that extra time could prove vital when seeking suitable antivenom treatment, especially in those in which pressure immobilisation is not possible."

Meanwhile it is not recommended that anyone put any substance on or wipe clean the bite area, as this will be needed to confirm the snake family before giving antivenom at the hospital.

Mh
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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:32

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:32
Good find. I will be carrying it in my kit during the summer from now on.
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:50

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 14:50
Hi Terra'Mer

What a brave and ambitious traveller you are. My spell check wants to change your name to Dreamer - and what a dream you have. Best of luck with your quest.

With your schedule, you well may see more snakes than we do when travelling in optimum climates for the area. We look for them but don't see many, and usually they take off quickly, although the little tiger snakes in Tasmania tended to stay put. I even waited until one left the path of a popular walk trail, pointing out to other as they went by what they had nearly trodden on, however soon after i returned to the car park a couple of ladies came back and loudly announced there was a snake on the path - it obviously re-claimed its ownership of the nice sunny spot. Several people who passed that i warned were looking ahead not down and could easily have trodden in it.

Although i am no expert, i would use something like that cream only as a real last resort due to the need for venom identification. Meanwhile caution in avoiding snakes is the best way and will see you safely through.

Mh

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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 16:59

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 16:59
Thanks for the support Mh : )
That tiger snake wouldn't have happened to be on the wineglass bay track. I have heard a few Tassie walkers mention it including my Mum getting a scare walking down there. I have found tiger snakes everywhere to be reluctant to move. Any snake gives me a shock when I'm not expecting it, I'll never get used to them, no bravado here.
I'm thinking the rectogesic ointment would only take a few seconds to spill onto the bite before strapping myself up. It's a risk applying compression to myself as it involves movement but less risk than nothing and the ointment may buy me time. What's the number one rule for bushwalking? Don't go alone, but I haven't met anyone crazy enough to join me so i need to be willing to improvise. I could swab the bite site and put it in a zip lock bag and tuck it into the top of the bandage for the paras to use for id
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 17:24

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 17:24
Hi Terra'Mer

No, we didn't see any snakes on the Wineglass Bay walk; must have been too many people there. That one was on the walk trail to some rocky features on the way to Port Arthur - near Devil's Kitchen i think.

Here he is, head slightly raised and flattened, ready to challenge anyone wanting to take his spot. I had a small mental battle with him before he left the path - but i was wearing joggers and thick socks. I won, but obviously not for long as he reclaimed his spot after i left.

Image Could Not Be Found

We saw a few others - all tigers, although one looked plain black as it darted into the reeds alongside a lagoon.

I once heard a radio interview with a solo traveller who went to shelter in a large drain pipe under the road in a remote place where he was bitten by multiple redback spiders. This was before travellers had mobile/satellite phones and the like. Thinking he could not get help, he just lay still for a about three days and he recovered. I saw a similar story on Animal Channel about a man surviving a rattlesnake bite in USA by doing much the same; but do not vouch for the veracity of the tale or reasons for the survival - just happened to see the story once.

It might not be the easiest, but applying the pressure bandage yourself would be fine.

Why do we have a fear of snakes? Because it is a healthy survival fear.

Mh

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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 22:07

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 22:07
I know first hand what a red back bite feels like and how it effects the body and mind. Bitten the first just once felt like a wasp strike I excused myself from the vineyard (grape picking) and walked back to my tent where I lay down thinking about how sick I was getting. As I drifted away I listed my symptoms and lost consciousness just as I realised it was a redback bite. Lucky I woke up the next day but felt like I'd been hit by a bus. Had a rest and went back to work 2 days later only to be bitten again, twice by a redback that found it's way up my trouser leg. Then a few years later when I worked at a boat building site I was bitten again while cleaning under an old hull. Obviously, I went to hospital after the first one but recovered quicker each time. What kinda super hero should I be and what department processes complaints about not receiving powers yet ;)

No drain pipes for me. I won't go into caves or deep overhangs either without very good lighting in case a snake or feral dog has made it home, although I was joined by a friendly wombat one night under an overhang in an Easter snow storm.
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 22:56

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 22:56
Well Terra'Mer, some years ago my neighbour was bitten a few times by a redback that dropped into her boot off some rocks she was moving around her stables. She drove to where her son-in-law was working close by before almost blacking out, and spent the next few days in hospital. For a couple of weeks she felt terrible and had shocking night time sweats. She said it was far worse than the snake bite she had a few years prior to that. My husband was bitten on the arm by a redback just before we were due to leave one of our big trips (and we couldn't delay it because we were dog sitting en route for our son and d.i.l. in the Pilbara while they went to Thailand). The bite site came up as a huge purple welt like a burn, which used to ooze yellow fluid around the edges. He had sweats too, but not so bad as our neighbour had. It was a few weeks before the oozing stopped. So the good news is - a snake bite is not so bad after all. I'd still keep well out of their way, as much as i admire the slithery reptiles.

Mh
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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 07:26

Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 07:26
What kind of snake was your neighbour bitten by?

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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 10:45

Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 10:45
Hi Terra'Mer

As she only told me about it when i visited her after she got out of hospital with the spider bite i can't be sure if she even mentioned the type of snake - it had happened quite some years prior. We only see Dugites around here, and on very rare occasions Tiger snakes. Odds on it was a Dugite as they are very common here.

Mh
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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 13:36

Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 13:36
While taking care of the Eyre Bird Observatory 7 years ago there were a lot of dugites around, had to watch every step. The water attracted the birds and they in turn attracted the snakes. It was nice to watch them but thankfully none came inside while I was there.
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 15:36

Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 15:36
multiple redback bites wont effect a healthy adult normally although like most insect bites there is the possability of adverse reaction

I was bitten 3 times and both the hospital and poisons info centre told me no need to go to the hospital unless adverse reactions occur

it just hurt like hell with the pain migrating round the body and the bite sites sweated for a week
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 16:09

Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 16:09
Hi get outmore

As one of our more knowledgeable snake lovers, have you ever been bitten by a snake? I haven't, although as a small child i got bitten by most creatures as i used to pick them all up.

Maybe not snakes though, because for some strange reason, no-one can ever recall seeing a snake on my family property, although it isn't that far from here. Even my son who is on the farm now has never seen one. I can't recall seeing snakes when i was little, but neither can i recall not seeing them, and as i spent much of my time bush walking, including along the river, i probably did. I always knew how to recognise the different snakes in our area so must have gained that knowledge somehow.

A funny tale from when i was a teenage in my first job at the local Elders stock agency: The boss ran over a snake when out on the back roads visiting clients. It seemed dead so he put it in the car boot to show everyone. I looked and said it was a Dugite (as it very clearly was). Boss didn't believe me at all - not a mere girl - not for some days until a respected old timer confirmed my identification. After that, the snake vanished; he blamed his preschool age daughters, one of which had a desire to travel down town in the boot of the car so he used to let her (no seat belts and all that stuff in those days). Then one hot day, he was driving out to visit farmers when he caught a glimpse of the Dugite slithering towards him along the top of the back of the full bench seat. I reckon he must have jumped out before the car came to a standstill!
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Sunday, Jan 08, 2012 at 14:31

Sunday, Jan 08, 2012 at 14:31
No never - in fact im flat out finding a snake and i do alot of looking for reptiles under tin and rocks etc
pluss alot of bush walking etc


its why i get sus whenever i hear about places where snakes are everywhere

we had a warning about the amount od snakes at a club in adelaide so i walked just about every bit of the club then the surounding quarry and hill

couldnt find much more than a small gecko
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Reply By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 16:11

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 16:11
G'day Tarra'mer,

The obvious best treatment is to avoid being bitten in the first place. I have seen stats over the years that suggest a substantial proportion of snake bites were as a result of people trying to catch or kill them. That leaves a small number of trekkers and gardeners accidentally treading or grabbing them, a lot of these no doubt did not wear boots or gloves.

I agree that it is good to be prepared and I always have with me compression bandages.

Give them some space and enjoy their company.

Hope you have uneventful travels.

Kind regards
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Reply By: Bazooka - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 16:19

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 16:19
Interesting, but I wouldn't be applying any ointment until the practice is endorsed in this country. Identifying the venom would be more critical than slowing its movement in many cases.

Noone has mentioned cling wrap as a possible alternative when compression bandages aren't available. Started carrying a roll to use for first aid since reading about its many uses (teeth, burns - don't wrap but lay over, marine stings, lung punctures etc). I can't seem to find the the original reference for it but I'd be very interested in re-reading it if someone can.
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Reply By: MEMBER - Darian, SA - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 17:26

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 17:26
Gotta smile - just like humans, there is always someone wanting to be different - ABC radio awhile back - caretaker in the botanic gardens at Cooktown - just reminding people to take care where they walk because their resident death adders won't slither off if encountered in the leaf litter (unlike most other Aussie snakes, they just stay put and get ready to defend).
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Follow Up By: Member - Joe n Mel n kids (FNQ - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 19:28

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 19:28
very hot topic ....... as expected..
Answer to question, Sat phone with a list of contacts applicable to the trip i am on ................
Beer in engle, some rum and scotch and some good wine, NEVER travel without some good quality drinks on board, if you need to remove some food to make space distract the missus and ditch it quickly, in event of snake bite look hard at drinks and then assess the situation, make the phone call and continue to watch over the drinks, snakes are very cunning and live in some shitty dry places so will steal your drink at the drop of a hat so be careful, calm and wait for help, dont ever take your eyes off the drinks ......
(dont have one until all fixed up, not good idea)
Oh and thanks for asking
:-)

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 21:48

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 21:48
:D

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Reply By: the_fitzroys - Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 23:37

Thursday, Jan 05, 2012 at 23:37
What a great discussion this has been. I've certainly learned some new things. Terra'Mer, you sure know how to get the conversation rolling :-)

Now that we've moved on to spiders I'm reminded of a stay at Geehi Flats 3 yrs ago. It started to rain late at night and with wine still in our glasses we decided to finish it under our tent fly. My husband thought it would be more romantic if we turned the gas light off so we sat in companionable silence, sipping away, as the rain drummed down. And then our eyes started to get accustomed to the dark. Hundreds of spiders were on the march. It was like a horror movie. I'm always quick to move at times like this but I reckon it was neck and neck between me and the old man. I seem to remember he was under the covers while I was zipping us in.

We're heading that way again in a few days :-)

Lou
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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 07:24

Friday, Jan 06, 2012 at 07:24
Had a similar experience camping in the Solomon Islands. After reading by candle light for a while I lay back and looked up to see about 40 big spiders (huntsman size) running across shelter ceiling. It was fascinating but then I saw these 2 giant legs appear and the biggest spider I have ever seen slowly move into the light and it started attacking the other spiders which now looked small in contrast. I was very grateful for the protection of the mozzie net.

Yeah, getting off topic but nice to throw in a few other Aussie creepy crawly stories : )
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Reply By: The Bantam - Sunday, Jan 08, 2012 at 10:47

Sunday, Jan 08, 2012 at 10:47
One of the real issues we have in this country is the great variability of what you will find.

We have a wide variety of insects, snakes and reptiles, all with varying habits and responses and presenting varying threats to humans.
Even the same spicies in different situations can present different levels of threat.

And different people will be more or less suceptable or effected.

So a lot of the simplistic ideas and thaughts are simply not reliable.

The redback has been mentioned....the toxisity of the venom and the effect of a bite from one can vary considerably from spider to spider in dfferent situations.

I was bitten by a small Redback while pruning, apart from a sting no worse than some ants and an itchy, tingling feeling in my hand....no real ill effects, Our headmaster at the primary school I went to was bitten and spent 2 days in hospital and was off work for a week.

All the various snakes have different habits, and their behaviour and strength of their venom can vary depending on the conditions at the time.

So be cautious about stories of recoveries and survival..those people might just have been lucky.

People say they hardly ever see snakes......well that may be so, perhaps they aren't looking...appart from being bitten when trying to catch or kill a snake the next most common is being bitten after stepping on one...hmm did'nt see that one.

A couple of months ago, I went for a drive thru the forestry near Monto.......in the space of about 2 hours I saw 6 different snakes cross the track..how many didn't I see.

I think those of us of a certain age that grew up in less urbanised times, and were in scouts or whatever tend to take the things we had drummed into our heads for granted.

We have a whole generation that know little about the risks of spiders and snakes, and at the first sign of any insect arround the house they get the fumigators in, and at the first sight of any snake anywhere near the home all hell breaks loose.

If you wear long trousers and boots when you go bush and make plenty of noise, ya chances of being bit by a snake are very low.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Sunday, Jan 08, 2012 at 22:36

Sunday, Jan 08, 2012 at 22:36
Thanks Bantam,
I have really appreciated your contribution to this thread.

I am almost 40 but I understand what you're saying about the generation lacking understanding and know how. I am often surprised at the lack of bush knowledge and basic survival skills of my peers, even the ones who grew up in the bush. But, on the flip side, I know almost nothing about technology and cities scare me.

Gotta use the noggin. Venturers and the school of hard knocks has taught me a thing or two but there is always something to learn from every experience and nobody can ever be 100% prepared because ultimately we don't have 100% control of what happens around us. That is why I ask these questions. I may have some knowledge base but there are many people, like yourself, who can add to it.

Cheers

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Follow Up By: get outmore - Sunday, Jan 08, 2012 at 23:14

Sunday, Jan 08, 2012 at 23:14
oh I look alright - its all i do

I can spot a thorny devil on the road no one else can any rock i overturn any old iron etc etc

im constantly on the lookout for reptiles

and yet i see very - no remarkalbly few snakes
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 09, 2012 at 10:58

Monday, Jan 09, 2012 at 10:58
Yeh there is looking and LOOKING.....

I recon I'm pretty observant, but a mate of mine that is 15 years older than me, is suspicious bordering on paranoid about snakes.....go for a walk in the scrub or out in a padock and he is looking at every stick, branch and bit of discarded garden hose......everything, long round and on the ground is a snake till proven otherwise.

He's also from that "generation of snake killers" although he does not kill every snake he see's these days.

He lived and worked in a few places where snakes were in plage proportions at one time or another, in his younger days.

I recon there will be times and places like that as the climate swings to more rainfall and more presperous times.......we have been in drought for at least 10 years and we have not had that high rainfall pattern we had in the late seventies and early eighties for over 20 years.

So be prepared to see more snakes arround.

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Reply By: get outmore - Sunday, Jan 08, 2012 at 23:24

Sunday, Jan 08, 2012 at 23:24
to keep it in perspective none of our snakes get remotly close to the worlds deadliest

somewhere between 2 and 3 people a year die from snakebites here with the brown (lumping all browns together the eastern, dugite and gwarder being the main ones) are our deadliest snake

but snakes such as the krait, saw scaled viper, russels viper and cobras kill 10s of 000s a year with snakes suchas the riussels viper being responsable for the averadge australian suburb worth of deaths a year..................

just to keep it in perspective
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Sunday, Jan 08, 2012 at 23:27

Sunday, Jan 08, 2012 at 23:27
should add our supposedly deadliest snake the inland taipan has never been recorded as killing ANYONE
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 09, 2012 at 11:34

Monday, Jan 09, 2012 at 11:34
That frankly is statistical crap.

There are two very good reasons our snakes do not kill more people.

1. The fact that due to our population and lifestyle snake encounters are a relatvly rare occurance for the majority of our population.

2. We have very good understanding of treatment and medical services.

Make no mistake, we have 5 or six of the snakes most capable of killing humans in the world...depending on how you fiddle the figures.

In third world countries, far less dangerous snakes account for many deaths, because there are far more snake encounters and there is very poor understanding of snake bite first aid and even worse medical services.

If a large portion of our population farmed, hunted and gathered on foot, with bare feet and legs......we would see many more incidents of snake bite.

Consider also that nearly 90% of our population is within a 30 minute ambulance response time and less than a hour by ambulance from a well equiped modern free casualty ward.

Deadly is a throw away term.

Coastal Tipan... Agressive and third most toxic venom of any land snake in the world.

Mulga Snake.... largest venom output of any snake.

Western or Inland Tipan...THE most toxic venom of any snake......but no deaths recorded....probably because it lives well away from any major human population centres......if ya want to get bit by one of these, first you have to find one and for most of the population that takes at least a 3 day drive.

In Australia, the Tiger Snake and the Eastern and Western Brown Snakes would be considered more dangerous than the above as they account for more reported bite cases and deaths......all three are agressive and have highly toxic venom easily capable of killing a human in one strike if no medical aid is available.

cheers
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Monday, Jan 09, 2012 at 11:47

Monday, Jan 09, 2012 at 11:47
its not statistyical crap - theres no fiddling the figures

its just hard cold reality

and actually non of our snakes would be regarded as aggressive which is another reason for our low death rates

I mention this alot and all i get is replys like yours with alot of

iffs
buts
and
maybes

but the stone cold hard facts (no fiddling with stats ) are the reality doesnt match the perception

you mention the tiger snake - Off the top of my head theres been one death in WA in the last 20 years or so from a tiger despite the fact the are common in the city around well used walking tracks such as bibra lake.

the person bitten had actually caught the snake and it is suspected he actually died as a result of an allergic reaction to the venom

hardly the track record for an aggresive snake.

I photograph snakes and the challange is not avoiding being bitten by these "aggresive" animals - its actually getting close enough to them to get a pic before they take off

again the perception not living up to reality
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Reply By: Member - Terra'Mer - Monday, Jan 09, 2012 at 18:21

Monday, Jan 09, 2012 at 18:21
Chill
This thread has had a good run but if it starts getting nasty I can ask for it to be locked

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