Warning About Odyssey Navigator GPS Software

Forgot to add.

We do not hide the fact the software is Single Use, the following warnings are shown to prospective and eventual purchasers;

1. The product description on the website BEFORE you purchase has a note to read the terms and other important info before you purchase.

2. The email sent AFTER purchase has links and notes to read BEFORE you register, if you don't agree we will happily refund.

3. When you attempt to register, you are shown the Terms yet again;
http://ww3.twig.com.au/register/eula.php

and the important term is the FIRST paragraph, not hidden at the bottom so it does not get read, we purposely put it first and the big warning;

"If you do not agree with any of the licence terms, do not proceed to install the product."


4. You have to click the button saying you agree to the terms, if you don't agree we will happily refund.

All pretty honest and upfront I think to those that bother to read, so I think a purchase "Warning" is hardly justified, after all, we do give plenty of warnings.



TWIG Solutions.

Hi, interesting discussion from both sides of the fence.
Mal, I have no problems with your companies integrity and the trouble it takes to point out the "Single Use" condition of sale.
I feel the problem arises from a "jargon point of view."What I mean is...Mal, you understand what a Single Use is...but the intending buyer doesn't. The buyer thinks...Ök that's fine, it's only going onto our travel laptop....no problem"

It doesn't occur to them that installing a larger hard drive to cope with all the holiday pics...or increasing the RAM to deal with the extra load or even re-installing from a backup (?) can invalidate their legitimate copy of your soft ware.

As it is available as an internet download it is possible the purchaser may never speak to you or have the full ramifications of the single use condition explained.
I know it would have caught me out.....

Jon...it's tough to do your dough like that...I guess you only make that mistake once!!!

Mal..I think you have to look past the jargon and fully explain the full scope of "single use" in your sale conditions.

The terms are more clear than any I have read and expressly refer to hardware failure or OS reinstallation needing a re-purchase.
I think the problem is these days that too many companies fill terms and conditions with so much B/S and customers are ofter too eager to get to the install so the terms dont get read properly.
Woould have caught me too because I am one of them that dont read properly but on same token if I get caught who's fault is it? There is a mirror in my bathroom.

Like I said to Jon earlier, I really can't give any more warnings or make it clearer, I just went through them all, 7 warnings or reminders start to finish are offered to potential and eventual buyers.

As Howsey says, it is pretty plain English, I can't see a way to make it any clearer without it being too long for people to read by listing every component that may fail in a PC or Laptop. I make the effort to place the most important term the first one, so even lazy folk like myself get a fair chance to read it.

We even advise in the tips to use SSDD to avoid such issues.

One thing that has not been mentioned, is we had offered a free fix, but this was declined, so again, not sure what more I can do.

If anyone has some planned work (ie will be replacing the HDD) they are more than welcome to contact us prior to doing the work to have us fix it for free.

In the 5 years of this product, we have had 4 complaints about the License terms. 2 of those were from the same on-line forum and thought that by ganging up they would get past it. One of the others was installed by a 3rd party for the owner and the terms were not explained to him.


As I said, we can't please everybody, but damn we try to get close!

"you are advised that the software is Single Use"

To me single use means use on one computer at a time. Right from back in the 80s this is the first time that that continued use of a programme has not been honoured. I have been able to do it back in the Lotus 123 days and even been able to transfer a MS operating system to a new computer. TWIG - You should take this up with your supplier. Not honouring continuous operation would constitute some sort of fraud or theft. What sort of business ethics do you have in not securing this right for your customers?

but it very clearly states the definition of single use by refering to changes in hardware, Just face it its in the fine print and no one takes time to read it and if you dont then who's to blame. Like I said I would have been caught too but at the end of the day It would be my fault for not reading properly because it is perfectly clear

Peter,
its so easy to condemn when one takes things out of context. The whole paragraph reads;

+++++++
Odyssey Navigator is a single installation software application. This means the software may be registered for use on a single device, such as a Desktop, Laptop, CarPuter (CarPC), device). Further installations, beyond the first installation, including re-installations due to hardware failure or OS reinstallation, will require additional registration keys to be purchased at a reduced cost. We may ask for proof of hardware failure to secure the lower price.
+++++++

So it is quite clear what we are calling "Single Use", and the info page that every good potential and eventual buyer reads also says;
++++++++

What Is Single Use?
Odyssey Navigator is a Single-Use application. This means you are limited to registering the software on a single machine, once. You may install it on more than one PC, however it will run in a limited mode if not registered on each PC.

Why was this method of sale offered? Because it allows us to keep the cost much lower. Think of it this way, if you buy a new Personal Navigation Device (eg a Navman) and it gets dropped or damaged some other way, the manufacturer or retailer is not entitled to replace it due to customer caused damage.

If we were to offer a perpetual licence we would have to factor in additional licensing costs and that would increase the sale price. Also with a perpetual licence, the chance of Intellectual Property and copyright theft is much higher, thus robbing us of income. This again would mean higher prices as we would need to build in the cost of that theft to all users, again meaning higher prices.

We offer a simple solution that offers the lowest cost of ownership. If you do need to reinstall your product on a new PC, re-install your OS, or you do have a hardware failure, there may be ways we can help with a very low cost additional licence key. Following basic common sense practices, such as using SSDD in CarPCs etc. will reduce or eliminate any Hard Disk failure issues and you will not need to purchase a new license.

+++++++

It is immaterial what other suppliers do, or what has happened historically. We are very upfront, there are no hidden texts, small or fine print.

I don't have the resources to go up against the data supplier (Navteq/Nokia), so sorry I wont take the fight with them, you are more than welcome to do so on my behalf of you have a spare couple of million dollars kicking around you sock and undie drawer.

There is no fraud or theft, and I think that is a pretty low-blow to even hint at that. Fraud implies something was not disclosed, and it is all clearly disclosed. If the purchaser thought, " Gee, that sucks, I can't reinstall it, I better get a refund", we are happy to do so.

As I said, 4 complaints in 5 years is pretty good as far as I am concerned. My business ethic is pretty good, after all I am even replying to emails and forums on a Sunday night. Does Dick Smith Electronics or anyone else do that?

If anybody wants a perpetual license, I am happy to oblige, the cost will be $450 a copy. This special, exclusive option is here for readers of this forum only!! Don't share it amongst your friends!

What's SSDD?

No point in advising people to use it if you don't tell us what it is!

Cheers

Paul B Kalgoorlie

People who don't know can always ask or Google :)

SSDD = Solid State Disk Drive...

ie no moving parts to get shaken about.

I cannot for the life of me see why upgrading RAM / Doing a reinstall from a backup on my travel laptop should invalidate ANY soft ware.
Why is yours the exception..?
I am a bit of a software junkie and have more programs than most....and none are so restrictive.
If I fully understood the restrictions on your product..I would not buy it.
I want to buy it once....and not worry that it may become invalid several months later, while probably many kms from home base.

Witi,
Its not that restrictive, someone has blown their vent out of proportion.

RAM changes DO NOT invalidate the licence, that was simple an untrue statement by the that user. I am not going to go into what does or how its derived, but RAM, ROM, BIOS and add-on cards and in some cases even a MOBO change will not invalidate the license. Replacing an exact disk image on the same hardware will also NOT invalidate the license.

I'll also say again, if any client does have planned HDD or OS change coming up, then all they have to do is call and ask and we will sort it for them. The only condition is we must have the laptop/CarPC online, both before and after the change so we can rebuild our key database of the new hardware. Of course a failure is not covered by this.

As you said "If I fully understood the restrictions on your product..I would not buy it. " I applaud you! That is your choice and I respect you for making that decision.

I can't applaud those who claim they were not told, were not warned or advised to read License agreements, then come back and complain after 2 years.

Don't like it, don't buy it.
Bought it and don't like the terms, don't register it and get a refund.
Its that simple.

I can't make people read the terms unless I fly to each client an sit with them and read it with them like a bed time story.

Hi People

By way of explanation:

1:
I had previously recommended this sw to users of this forum on several occasions and having discovered this "limitation" I felt the need to issue a proviso to those previous recommendations.

2:
Like most of the users in this forum we have a 4WD, in our case a truck; our laptops are subjected to bumps, knocks and drops, dust and dirt and even water. Regular repair/replacement/re-imaging of computers is a given in these harsh conditions.

3:
These dire warnings about "single use installation" were NOT; repeat NOT; repeat again ***NOT*** prominent when I purchased. In view of Point #2 above it is a given that I would not have bothered because I KNOW that my laptops have a limited lifespan and to have to purchase a new license every time the laptops needs a new bit or the HDD to be re-imaged is not on. Further to have to do this in the middle of a trip is simply not feasible.

4:
This "single use license" is not industry standard license mechanism by any stretch of the imagination. For example I have had the same license of Ozi Explorer for many years on a half a dozen laptops. the term "single use" has always been taken to mean on a single computer at any one time.

5:
I am sorry to contradict Mal about the changes issue; this laptop has had ONLY 2 modifications:

a) upgrade RAM module from 2GB to 4GB
b) new SSD hard drive which was re-imaged from an Acronis backup IMAGE of the original drive. NO RE-INSTALLATION of any sw was done!

The software now refuses to work and Mal has told me I have to purchase a new license.

6:
As to notifying sw providers of any "planned" breakdowns this is just silly! Failures happen unexpectedly by nature.

And as to allowing remote access to my computer over the internet because I think I might need to do a hw or sw change surely cannot be a serious suggestion! I would not allow this access to ANYONE for any reason.



In summary:

My note about this sw stands and as far as I can see nothing Mal has added has changed the basic warning that you will need to purchase a new license for Odyssey Explorer if you make changes to your hw or sw! In my case those changes could have been a RAM upgrade and/or a re image of the HDD.

Hi,
Interesting discussion.

I think one of Mal/ Twig comments summs it all up,

"Don't buy it".


A bit out of context but seems to me but does seem good advice :).


Richard

As an ex senior electronics technician, programmer and system analyst I understand the situation and whole heartedly sympathise with Mals/Twigs.

However:
Just imagine the cost if every software package you use on your PC needs a $59 payment for a new key when the hard disk is replaced. Ouch!!

Mal I think the key link has gone too low. It's like having to get a new ignition key when the battery is renewed.

Phil

Now this is just getting childish. Good on you... A lot out of context I would think.

The product website has not changed other than changing the map dates and the addition of the no free updates included since April 2010 when we also slashed about $100 from the price from memory to compensate.

The email sent you Jon (which is sent to all clients) has the following;

++++
Please read additional information at the following URLs prior to downloading
and registering, if you do not agree to any of the terms and conditions shown
below, then do not install and do not register the product.

Once registered a refund will not be provided.

Important information: http://www.twig.com.au/store/odyssey.php
End User Licence Agreement: http://www.twig.com.au/store/odyssey-eula.php
++++++

Again, I can't make people read it. If the assumption that we had no Terms is to be believed, then why would we have 2 links to the relevant pages in the email sent to you with your activation codes? Kind of pointless having blank web pages.

So again, I am quite shocked to say we misled anyone.. The EULA and Info page has NOT changed and was displayed.

Here is an extract from our Registration server for the user involved, it shows the EULA was displayed to the user, and then he clicked Accept. Again, I can't make people read it, but an assumption is made that you did read it since you clicked "I Agree". I hope we will not be accused now of faking a log file!

16-03-10 19:00:52 Rendering eula.php to user 203.87.79.2
16-03-10 19:01:05 User accepted EULA - > 203.87.79.2

Jon with all due respect;

Point 3: The warnings were there and to accuse us of lying is slanderous.

Point 4: There is no industry standard, there are only company standards in regards to licensing. We are upfront about it, and any assertion we hide it just an insult to our integrity.

Point 5: I have already advised you by email that the HDD change was the cause. RAM and CPU changes WILL NOT affect the license. I think know how your problem came about. You installed your OS first then did the re-image. This does NOT restore one vital part of your install, and even Windows *MAY* have complained that it was not activated and required re-activation as we both read the same bit of info from the hardware.

Point 6: Am I a little slow on the uptake, here? I am sure I said; "if any client does have planned HDD or OS change coming up, then all they have to do......", I did not say "Planned Breakdowns", I agree that is just stupid, who plans a breakdown?

As for not putting a PC online, I am an IT consultant and have some very VIP clients, including a Consulate Generals office. I take my work and activities performed very seriously and with the utmost privacy and security in mind. I am seriously not interested in what websites you visit, or any of your other personal data, I have much more important things to worry about, like my dear baby son.

I just want you to be happy with our very low cost, simple to use product and get any issues rectified. The offer is still there, pop the laptop online and let me access the old and new HDD and I'll get it sorted for you. I will even throw in a FREE map update released in Nov.

We know we can't please everybody, we do try our hardest, and do make lots of concessions.

I don't want to argue with all of you, it is the way it is.. If you would prefer a perpetual License, I can offer that to you at a much higher price.

We have not and will never lie or deceive customers, and we abide by all state and federal laws. Just because we are different you want to persecute us? If you don't like our terms, that is your choice. Its not wrong, just different.

TWIG Solutions

Guys,

This discussion has gone far enough.

If anyone has anymore to add that hasn't already been stated send and email through to modsquad@exploroz.com and we'll consider adding it to the discussion.

Regards
The ModSquad