Which Ctek Charger?

I have two Optima 75ah aux batteries for fridge etc. I need a charger to top up/restore after a trip (I dont have 240v in the van for charging at powered sites so I rely on alternator charging).
Couple of questions:
Can they be charged properly whilst still connected together or do they need to be separated for charging?
Which would be better for this, the 15amp or 25amp Ctek?
thanks
Stan
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Reply By: Stan2.8D - Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 22:23

Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 22:23
This is what Optima recommends (for a single battery):


OPTIMA Commercial YellowTop Charging Information

YellowTop Type: D31A & D31T
These batteries are dual purpose. They are designed for engine start and deep-cycle applications for use in vehicles with large accessory loads.
Recommended charging information:
Alternator:

13.65 to 15.0 volts, no amperage limit.

Battery Charger:

13.8 to 15.0 volts, 10 amps maximum, 6-12 hours approximate.

Cyclic Applications:

14.7 volts, no current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). When current falls below 1 amp, finish with 3 amp constant current for 1 hour.

Rapid Recharge:

Maximum voltage 15.6 volts (regulated), no current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). Charge until current drops below 1 amp.

Float Charge:

13.2 to 13.8 volts, 1 amp maximum current, time indefinite (at lower voltage).

All limits must be strictly adhered to.
AnswerID: 482488

Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 22:39

Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 22:39
Stan,

forget the Opti.as for cyclic apps.
There aren't any chargers around for them.
As you can see from the list, they need 14.7V absorption charging voltage, followed by a time limited constant current stage to get them back to 100%.

None of the ct.ks achieves this, the models you're looking at don't even go above 14.4V.

cheers, Peter
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FollowupID: 757741

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 22:55

Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 22:55
Peter,
It a bit too late to forget about the Optimas for cycling applications as that is what I bought them for and what I use them for and what they are designed for and what many others use them for. As per usual you have swiftly moved in to dismiss the competition (in my last post you instantly and wrongly concluded that the Optimas were now defective).
I learnt long ago to take most of what you say with great caution as you have your own agenda.

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FollowupID: 757742

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 23:06

Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 23:06
Peter, what you seem to be saying is that Century Batteries Australia are distributing batteries which are unable to be recharged properly with any battery chargers currently available in Australia.
This is quite an accusation which you have made. I will take this up with them on Tuesday.
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FollowupID: 757743

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 23:25

Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 23:25
Peter wrote: "they need 14.7V absorption charging voltage......none of the ct.ks achieves this, the models you're looking at don't even go above 14.4V"

CTEK MXS10: AGM charging voltage is 14.7, Recondition voltage 15.8v



Model number 1046
Volt 12V
Rated Voltage AC 220–240VAC, 50–60Hz
Charging voltage NORMAL: 14.4V, COLD/AGM: 14.7V, RECOND: 15.8V, SUPPLY: 13.6V
Min battery voltage 2.0V
Charging current 10A max
Current, mains 1.0A rms (at full charging current)
Back current drain <1Ah/month
Ripple <4%
Ambient temperature -20°C to +50°C, output power is reduced automatically at high temperatures
Charger type 8 step, fully automatic charging cycle
Battery types All types of 12V lead-acid batteries (WET, MF, Ca/Ca, AGM and GEL)
Battery capacity 20–200Ah, up to 300Ah for maintenance
Dimensions 197 x 93 x 49mm (L x W x H)
Insulation class IP65
Weight 0.8kg
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Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 23:32

Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 23:32
Interesting Peter, that nowadays when you write stuff about other companies products you dont fully spell out their names, preferring to write ct.ks for Ctek's and Opti.as for Optima's as if that would save you from potential legal action for defamation of another company's products. If you felt so sure you can stand by persistent negative imputation of your competition's products then at least have the guts to spell out their names in full. Othewise you just look like a salesman with an agenda.
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FollowupID: 757745

Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 07:33

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 07:33
Stan,

you don't seem to understand:

The op.imas can't be charged correctly in cyclic apps by one of the c.eks you mentioned.

That's because these chargers lack the time limited constant current charging stage at the end of the absorption stage.

And you specifically asked about their 15 and 25A models to which I specifically replied they don't even output the recommended 14.7V absorption stage voltage.

Then, in your second reply you introduced another model which is apparently capable of achieving the necessary higher absorption voltage - you've solved part of the problem - but still, this charger also lacks the time lmited constant current charging stage.

Stan, you're threatening a third party with legal action to defend your own, less than ideal battery choice for your application, and possible wrong advice you were given by the seller of your batteries.
That's not how you solve this battery charging problem.

What you can do instead:

Approach the battery seller, and ask if he knows of a charger which conforms to the battery manufacturer's recommendations pertaining to cyclic apps.

And please be nice to others, who are willing to share some of their time and expertise.

There are ways to achieve this.

cheers, Peter




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FollowupID: 757748

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 08:15

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 08:15
You stated:
they need 14.7V absorption charging voltage......none of the ct.ks achieves this. and there aren't any chargers around for them (Optimas).

This was untrue. You come out with this stuff about others products apparently without hesitation.

You seem to have two default posting settings:

Others products are crap
or
My products are best click the link below to purchase.


In my experience of you Peter, you move the goal posts as soon as you are caught out using the boards for your own agenda. The fact that you are now even more blatent in the way in which you appear to be using these boards for your own purposes is a disgrace.

I havent threatened legal action to anyone as you have mis-stated, but clearly you are aware that your statements are not very reliable otherwise you would be using the product namees spelled out in full. But once again you have twisted what I have written for your own purposes.

You may be an advertiser on these boards but that does not give you the right to wantonly mislead people in an effort to line your own pocket
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Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 08:33

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 08:33
So here we have it. Once again Peter wont, when challenged, stand by his negative statements of others products:


Post1: There aren't any chargers around for them.


Post2: Approach the battery seller, and ask if he knows of a charger which conforms to the battery manufacturer's recommendations pertaining to cyclic apps.

Peter why suggest asking the seller if you know without any apparent qualification that no charger exists for them. What you didnt say is that you dont know of a suitable charger but suggest I check with the seller.

Being "nice to others" on these boards means not rushing in to provide a dead end for the OP. This is especially important for you to do as you portray yourself as something of an expert on batteries.
You have done this twice to me in just a few days by telling me my batteries are faulty (not correct) and now that there is no charger available.


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FollowupID: 757752

Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 09:29

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 09:29
I agree with you Stan.
Pity Peter didn't read your original question:
"I need a charger to top up/restore after a trip "

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Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 13:10

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 13:10
@ Stan,

ok, it's a bit hard to understand for some:

you don't necessarily need a 'charger' to put the required amount of (over)charge into a battery.

If you had some faith in your battery seller, you would have approached them with the specific charging requirements of this type of batteries in cyclic apps.

And again, Battery Value comes to the rescue with some free advice:

Select a charger which offers a beefy current of at least one tenth of rated capacity, and which has a 14.7/14.8V setting.
If it's a multistage unit, it'll switch back to float at the end of the absorption stage.
At this point in time, disconnect your battery and hook it up to a 40~60W rated solar panel and put it in full sun for one hour.

This constant current charging treatment will make the battery lose some electrolyte which is the lesser evil.
Expect the charging voltage to rise beyond 16V during this.

This constant current treatment is essentially an equalisation charging stage which repairs spiral wound AGM batteries which were subject to PSOC operating conditions (at the cost of precious electrolyte).

@ Phil,

I'm confronted with similar questions on a daily basis (we're an AGM battery specialist retailer who actually communicate with clients AND battery manufacturers very closely).
Trust me, I understand full well where Stan was coming from.

When someone says "I need to top up/restore", then this means nothing less than "repair" a battery which has suffered from the effects of operating in PSOC for some time.
Spiral wound AGM batteries are particularly vulnerable to these effects, thus they need an extra amount of overcharge to restore as much of the lost capacity as possible.
If that's not done, then it's all down hill from here on.
On the other hand, applying a controlled overcharge according to the manufacturer's recommendations, makes the battery lose about 1~3 grams of electrolyte, so their cycle life is compromised.
And that's why spiral wound AGM batteries aren't really suitable for cyclic apps with lowish discharge currents down to below 30% of SOC.

Of course there are other applications where these shortcomings are being accepted for the battery's advantages like high current density, and mechanical ruggedness.

But flat plate AGM technology advances faster due to their lower cost of manufacturing.
You can now have equally high current density in flat plate AGMs at a fraction of the cost.
Look out for AGMs designed for start/stop systems.

cheers, Peter

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FollowupID: 757773

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 13:56

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 13:56
In actual fact, I have just returned from my trip so I have not had a chance to contact the retailer, so your assertion that I dont have faith in my retailer is misplaced and scurrulous.
The batteries dont need restoring at this stage, the suggestion was for that capability should it be needed.
You clearly want to dismiss Optima's in favour of selling your own flat plate batteries.
"Its a bit hard to understand for some" is deeply patronising.
What I do find hard to understand however, is how you feel justified in misleading people by first telling them that is no suitable charger exists and then trying to sell your own.

Your behaviour on these boards is in my opinion; manipulative, dishonest, unethical and un-Australian.

Your 'free' opinions are mostly worthless and often deliberatly misdirect people in the most subtle and underhand way, to purchase your product or not to purchase a competitors product.

You try to help yourself whilst pretending to help others. You exploit ignorance with the cloak of distorted knowledge. Your behaviour is everything that these boards and this country has a tradition of not being.

Kindly refrain from replying to my posts in future, I can well do without your 'help'.



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FollowupID: 757774

Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 14:35

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 14:35
Stan,

..."Its a bit hard to understand for some" is deeply patronising...

You're right, please accept my apologies for this slip up which I made under the influence of rising anger.
In fact, the knowledge surrounding batteries isn't easily acquired.
Only a few short years ago I would have been dazzled in the same way as you, by someone making the same comments.

Happy Easter, Peter
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Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 14:50

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 14:50
"Only a few short years ago I would have been dazzled in the same way as you, by someone making the same comments."

You really overrate yourself: I'm not "dazzled" by you, I am disgusted and no amount of diversionary tactics on your part, is going to change that.

You have cashed in your credibility 'cheque' with me and I suspect, many others.
You chose the wrong person to try and bamboozle.
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Follow Up By: Dreadnought - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 18:01

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 18:01
@Stan.....you didn't want Peter to reply to any more of your posts, but he did........and you bit.......hook, line............
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Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 18:54

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 18:54
Dreadnought, you wouldnt want me to let his arrogance to go unchallenged, now would you.
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Follow Up By: ModSquad - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 09:46

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 09:46
Guys, please keep the discussions away from personal jibes.
Moderation is just rules

Lifetime Member
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 18:15

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 18:15
Thanks Modsquad for stepping in.
And congratulations to Stan for being calm, controlled and logical, and to Peter to his credit for giving an apology for his negative personal comments.

Just a general comment - its a pity that members with a commercial interest prevent a simple discussion and information sharing about such a simple topic as recharging batteries.

Can we go back to the days where people just said what they think based on their experiences and not get their threads hijacked?

Cheers
phil
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Follow Up By: ModSquad - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 18:37

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 18:37
Was there ever a time when threads werent hijacked??

Anyways, Commercial members bring a great expert value to the place Phil. And its up to everyone to sort out the wheat from the chaff, newbies and old stagers alike. Steve, like all our Business members, is passionate about the subject and content. So I wouldnt try and dissuade them from commenting. We have seen more passion on lots of subjects, just remember this is the Internet. Real life is behind you!

The Squad
Moderation is just rules

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 18:53

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 18:53
Who is Steve?

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 19:42

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 19:42
"Was there ever a time when threads werent hijacked?? "
Are you suggesting that hijacking a thread is OK and shouldn't be moderated?

"Commercial members bring a great expert value to the place"
Yes, I agree that most do. Compare Derek Bester to Peter (or is it Steve?). Derek never rubbishes a competitor's product and he gives a straight answer and good advice - he is a model business member. Peter gets our backs up because he badmouths the opposition (Optima, Ctek etc..... or is it Opt*ima or C*ek) and starts personal attacks on contributors.

Yes I know its only the internet........but we expect better from quality sites where many of us pay to be a member.
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Follow Up By: ModSquad - Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 07:01

Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 07:01
Hi Phil,

Not suggesting that at all, posts are moderated based on the forum rules. Just reflecting on history.
Moderation is just rules

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Reply By: Member - Wamuranman - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 06:58

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 06:58
Hey Stan,
Have you considered a Durst smart charger?
A while ago I was researching for a good quality charger and I talked to and asked questions of a lot of knowledgable people in this area (I am not a electronic wiz personally). But a number recommended Durst to me. They have been operating in Austrlia since about 1918. I purchased a 25amp Durst charger. Their products are not cheap but of very high quality. Anyway if interested have alook at this link:
http://durst.com.au/
Cheers

AnswerID: 482490

Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 07:45

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 07:45
Hi Wamuranman,

good point.
These are very robust 25A chargers, highly accurate and can be selected to output up to 14.8V absorption voltage.
The option of selecting a higher absorption voltage alone, makes these a superior product over the 25A unit from c.ek.

That's why we sell the same units, sourced directly from the Taiwanese manufacturer.

Needless to say, you won't find a better deal on them in the whole country.

cheers, Peter
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Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 08:44

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 08:44
So which is it Peter, there are no chargers around for the Optimas or your product is suitable?


As I said before, two settings for you: disparage the competion and/or say that your product is the best.

Discussion for you on these boards is no longer really discussion, its just one big advert.
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Follow Up By: Dreadnought - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 18:02

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 18:02
And sinker..............LOL..........love it.........
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Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 18:55

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 18:55
er, I made that post at 9:14am this morning, long before the post you are referring to. You have some point to make or are you just stirring the pot for amusement?
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Follow Up By: Dreadnought - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 22:09

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 22:09
Purely just for amusement Stan......thanks for the laugh!!
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Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 07:47

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 07:47
Not sure what there is to laugh at here, what this guy is doing is wrong.
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Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 07:50

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 07:50
oh and posting just to stir the pot for a laugh is called trolling: it is generally agreed to contribute nothing to forums.
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FollowupID: 757843

Follow Up By: Dreadnought - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 18:29

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 18:29
And whinging/whining about how someone else runs his business, and about the false information he gives out ( which we can all determine the validity of ourselves thanks)...............is still called whinging/whining.............but still very funny.......Thanks again.
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FollowupID: 757891

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:48

Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:48
He isnt supposed to be "running his business" from these boards, although I have to agree his usage of them does look like that.
You say you speak for "we", by which I presume you mean every other reader on these boards; a little presumptious dont you think?
And as for whinging and whining...... that's exactly what you just did yourself.

Despite your last post being total nonsense, I do see at least the spark of a point of view on at least something, yes its jeering, yes its trolling but there is a point of view in there albeit, only just. Keep it up mate, one day you might just be able to progress to coherently posting in a way which people find interesting.

Good luck and.......thanks for the laugh.
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Reply By: Rockape - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 07:48

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 07:48
Stan,
I would leave them connected together as they are the same model battery and use the 25a ctek charger as it will bring them back up quicker if required.

As stated Durst are also a good product..

I have had Optima batteries for many years now and have achieved 10 years out of both of them. I did destroy 2 others when the charger selector switch was accidentally bumped to power supply. Failure was not the batteries fault.

They have one problem you have to watch out for and that is when tightening or loosening the battery clamps, don't lever or swing on them as you can tear the post out of the case.

Our work Optima batteries take an absolute flogging and are mounted on their side. All have performed way above expectation with no failures. I must state they are replaced every 2 years because they are a safety critical item. These batteries have been in use here for 15 years.

These batteries are charged with 15a ctek chargers. They run for one week then are pulled out placed on charge and the other sets are then installed. So this cycle goes on week after week.

If others have had one fail then to me this is not the norm. 168 batteries and no failures.

RA.
AnswerID: 482492

Follow Up By: Racey - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 08:33

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 08:33
Data from the Optima battery site charging info is below.




Recommended Charging Information:
Alternator:
13.65 to 15.0 volts
Battery Charger (Constant Voltage):
13.8 to 15.0 volts; 10 amps maximum; 6-12 hours approximate
Float Charge:
13.2 to 13.8 volts; 1 amp maximum (indefinite time at lower voltages)
Rapid Recharge:
(Constant voltage charger)
Cyclic or Series String Applications:
Maximum voltage 15.6 volts. No current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). Charge until current drops below 1 amp.
14.7 volts. No current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). When current falls below 1 amp, finish with 2 amp constant current for 1 hour.
All limits
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Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 08:37

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 08:37
Thanks Rockape, I think the limit is 10amps according to the recommended charging?
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 16:15

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 16:15
Stan and Racey,

I notice the the 10 amp limit looks like it is for battery chargers that are constant voltage not smart chargers. It would be interesting to get a ruling on this from optima.

I use a 15 amp smart charger and as you can see with my battery life that I have no problems at all. All the batteries at work are charged with 15a ctek chargers and they are charged in extremely high heat.

Both of my batteries are charged together and are of different capacity and application as one is a red top and the other a yellow top with a manual isolation switch between that I only switch off when the vehicle is stopped and a load connected to the yellow top ie. fridge and lights.

Both are under the bonnet of a 75 series and have not suffered from heat shortening their lives.

RA.
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Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 16:44

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 16:44
Just goes to show that Optimas really are resilient. I understand they are standard issue for the US army.
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FollowupID: 757790

Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 09:39

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 09:39
Gday Stan,
In answer to your original question, for topping up after getting home from a trip, I don't think you need a 15 amp charger.
The Ctek XS7000 is what I use - its a 7 amp charger which gives you a choice of 14.4 or 14.7V and is ideal for single battery charging, but 150Ah is well within its specs. Costs $158 delivered (Ebay).
I personally would charge the batteries individually seeing time is not an issue - just run the charger on one battery each night and you're done.

Cheers
Phil
AnswerID: 482496

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 09:57

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 09:57
Thanks Phil, I thought the above chargers might be overkill, so I went into the shed and had a closer look at the charger I got some time ago from Jaycar. Turns out it is better than I had thought and might do the job and a quick search online shows people seem to recommend it.
Its a Powertech Plus MB-3604. Nothing fancy but its 5 stage, does AGM's at 14.7.
Its only 3.8amps but time is not an issue for this application and a slower/gentler recharge might be good for the batteries. It only does up to 120ah so I would have to separate the batts, as they add up to 150ah.
Sometimes less is more.
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