Lake Eyre Possible name change what next

It's a mystery to me that it's okay for non-indigenous landholders to restrict or place caveats on access to their land but not for traditional owners to do similar.

The push to exclude certain people has started with the intention to ban sailing on Lake Eyre! What difference having a sailing craft on the lake when the conditions are right I cannot imagine.

Spot on Bazooka! There are some marvellous places locked away in the big station country. I was lucky enough on my last trip to travel with a relative who works at a high level in an cattle company which has a number of stations across Australia so we included touring and camping on several of those stations. We camped at some spectacular sites; spectacular for their scenery, wildlife or topographical features. And they told me of one station (which we didn’t visit due to time constraints) which they claim far exceeds what I had seen so far. When I suggested that tourism would be a good revenue stream their defences clearly went up. There is no way they will be allowing any access to their properties. In fact, they suggested that we shouldn’t be too free in describing these places once we arrived back home or publishing identifying information on the net.
As to changing place names, Australia has a strong history of changing place names. Even Tasmania used to be Van Diemen’s Land until 1856. And of course Darwin was Palmerston until 1911.
Actually, I quite like the sound of Kati Thanda.

The indigenous population of Australia would not be here if the Japs had taken over in WW2.
It was their intention to wipe them out, and most of us [ whites] as well.

I am not racial, I think they ought to thing themselves lucky that our fathers stopped the japs.

What's that got to do with the current topic Phillipn?

Amazing that anyone would think indigenous Aussies didn't contribute to the war effort. But I suspect some are smug enough to not want to acknowledge reality.

Here's a starting point to help you improve your knowledge Phillip. There are plenty of more references on the web if you aren't sure where your local library is.
Indigenous Aussies at war.

Their expert knowledge of the bush and survival has been put to great use by the army since the last 'great' war, but you knew that didn't you?

Australian soldiers, with the help of the Aboriginal soldiers who joined up as Australians to defend this country, were the first to halt the Japanese advance. The Yanks lost every battle before this.
This was in New Guienea.
Or so I learnt last week at the Canberra War Memorial.

Re name change.
Sorry, cannot agree Ron.
Seems to me that we are bending over back-ward to assist one race to keep its heritage at the expense of another's history.
Have travelled all through there and followed the old droving and explorers tracks and marvelled at the hardship endured by them.
Our country was "put on the map" by these explorers, especially the exploration leading to the overland telegraph to Alice and Darwin.
It will always be Ayr's Rock to me. This is not to denigrate any race, just stating my opinion.
It may also be remembered that many explorers used Aborigine trackers, who showed the whites water holes etc.
We owe them all for their fortitude
PS. My Dad wa a drover before WW2 doing the Channel Country to Maree via BirdsvilleTrack

But Ayers Rock was named after an administrator GT, not an explorer. Gosse reportedly gave it that moniker because he had a liking for one of Henry Ayers' daughters. Dual naming for iconic geographical features seems a good compromise imo.

I agree Bazooka, IF only the TV commentators would use the dual names in their programs, Getaway being the main offender.
I, like the rest of us that travel this marvellous land, love it and its duel history, but I stand by my comment last post.
Let us remember all contributions to it's exploration that lets us be the country we are, and that includes names.

Stupid comment

Why?

I thought the comment was too the point. A fine use of sarcasm.

"Oh dear, the poor old White Fella missing out again. He's got it so tough" ....

Now, I'll wager if I posted ..

"Oh dear, the poor old Black Fella missing out again. He's got it so tough"

... my post would be moderated and removed, just as it was last night, when I passed a comment about blacks!
Methinks the moderation is pretty slanted on here, too!

Bill BD understood. Clearly Ted doesn't.

Agree totally, i can't even pronounce the intended new name.

Let alone Sri Lanka or Timor-Leste.

I agree 100% Charlie, the names will not change with me either.

Cheers P&J

Im with Charlie.

So many places in Oz are named after poms who never even stepped on our shores. I would like to see all our states with the exception of Tasmania renamed, I mean it wouldn't take much imagination to come up with better names for WA, SA, NSW and NT would it ??? TIC.

rr

racinrob, I agree with you - just leave Queensland alone - go the Maroons!

Sounds alright to me as well. An excellent move that I hope the Geographic Names People support.

Bill - However, I wonder what the cost is to the nation, every time a place name is changed - and every single map and every single publication that has been produced, that mentions place names - has to be altered and reprinted?!

Obviously very little will be reprinted just to reflect a new/duplicate name Ron, particularly maps. In any case the small cost of publications which are updated gives work to local printers.

That's true Ron, there has to be some cost, although I suspect it mostly just gets changed on a digital copy and updated as old publications go out of circulation and new are issued. I still think its worth it. I support any move towards reconcilliation, particularly those that acknowledge that the land was occupied (and named) prior to European arrival and the (rather spurious) declaration of Terra Nullius.

Looks like some people here have changed the name already.
Lake Eyre now being spelt Lake Ayre. No wonder the Aborigines want it changed.

That's my two cents worth, cheers P&J

I thought it looked wrong. I just copied the spelling in the title. lol

If you offered to take my kids to England to meet the rellies I would look at you the same way.

I'm talkin about Aboriginal Kids who are in my care as a foster carer. I'm allowed to take them anywhere, including overseas, as long as it does not involve them in anything to do with Aboriginality outside the Wiradiji mob.

Fair enough..... that certainly wasn't clear.

Probably an empty Coolibah cask??

Left there by a redneck?

Ted, Studpid comment!

Yeah Ted....stupid comment! Its not even fortified?......let alone stilled! LOL

Alby

I agree that when we are locked out of OUR country that it does not do anything for indigenous relations! If they care for the land that they say is special to them and means so much they could start by cleaning up their communities most of them look like a rubbish tip! Finke would be one example with mangy dogs everywhere, with burnt out or broken down cars and piles of beer cans and wine casks. One wonders what race they disposessed in their migrations. I thought we are all Australians not the them and us that is being promoted by media and do gooders who have probably never seen what the real situation is.

my 2 bobs worth

Hard to disagree with some of that Ted but you surely aren't claiming that things are different or better in non-indigenous communities? I'm sure you're aware of the state of some of our public housing, the dilapidated, often vacant, private properties in the big cities, and the abysmal state of some factories and business properties in the industrial areas in particular.

But the part of your latest comment which really caught my eye was the 'OUR country' bit. Here are a few questions for you. Do you believe in the rule of democratic law? Do you think citizens ought to be able to own private property? Do you also think that they should then have some control on who they let on their property and for what purpose? Do you limit who has access to your own property?

I'd like to see the owners compromise with the LE Yacht Club to allow one weekend of limited sailing annually (when the lake is full of course) but I can understand that they might just think it is trivial. After all there are plenty of other lakes available for recreation.

I can't see any relevance to your point about dispossession (other than the obvious that you don't agree with Land Rights despite the national parliament and High Court both endorsing them) but if you can find evidence of aborigines driving another people off this land and depriving them of their lands, their lifestyles and livelihoods then I'm sure the world would like to hear it.

Ted - Surely you realise, that in the Aboriginal view - the broken down cars, plastic bags, beer cans, wine casks and full nappies that are dropped by Aboriginals, and which litter the Aboriginal communities - are white mans rubbish! So, they just leave it for the white man to pick up! It's simple, isn't it, when you view the situation from their position! [:-)

So Ron, tell us - who do you blame for the 'broken down cars, plastic bags, beer cans, wine casks and full nappies that are dropped' by non-indigenous Aussies?

Bazooka - The point I'm making is that the Aboriginals are very happy to receive all the benefits of white man's food production - manufactured products in the form of vehicles - white mans money in vast amounts - white mans housing - white mans alcohol - yet they expect the white man to also clean up after them, and repair everything supplied to them - while they demand exclusive land areas reserved for them, that the white people have to "give back", after it was "stolen" from them! Sounds like a 50c each-way bet to me!

The whites who litter on a sizeable scale at least don't demand exclusive areas and substantial facilities, so they can then trash them! Ever tried to issue a littering fine to an Aboriginal?? See how far you get!

Ron - the point you aren't making about your 'white' mates is far more telling. We only see what we want to see. You're happy to turn a blind eye to the many obvious failings of your 'white' mates but want to take the big stick to the indigenous community. There are some big problems in some indigenous communities just as there are in yours and mine. There are also PLENTY of aboriginal Aussies making great contributions to this society - I'd hazard a guess far bigger contributions than either you or I. Your comment about white man's money is the usual rot rolled out by people who don't want to look at the whole story. Open your eyes to the positives as well as the negatives. There are aborigines in every walk of Australian life - artists, musos, footballers, writers, judges, doctors, lawyers etc.

Of course its a 50c each way Ron. Its really a rock and a hard place for all involved. It is hard to deny that the changes to Ab culture are the result of white settlement and those changes have made a traditional life impossible to return to. Yet, many groups are not totally disposessed. They still live on or near their land and retain their language..... few would dispute they have a right to do this. So they are out in what we consider the middle of nowhere, unable to live a traditional lifestyle but remaining on traditional land and clinging to what remains of their language and culture. At the same time grog, inactivity, poor diet, and a host of other things have taken (and still take) their toll, so the actual lifestyle for many is less than ideal. So now what? Where to from here for all concerned? I have no idea but I believe increased control over traditional land and using traditional names is part of the solution because it restores identity. A strong identity is what brings communities together to control grog (with varied success). Beyond that I suspect it is a long road that will require money for education, infrastructure, and other stuff I can't think of at the moment. What other humane and just option is there?

I laughed the first time I heard of "white man rubbish". To me it sums up just how different the two cultures are in thought and deed. Traditionally there is no littering.... if you leave something in a place it is there when you come back. I would be surprised there is even a word in the languages for "litter" as we understand it.

This is a very long post for me. I don't think I will revisit this thread as the responses (not necessarily your's Ron) are likely to depress me.

Bazooka posted:

>But the part of your latest comment which really caught my eye was the 'OUR country' bit. Here are a few questions for you. Do you believe in the rule of democratic law? Do you think citizens ought to be able to own private property? Do you also think that they should then have some control on who they let on their property and for what purpose? Do you limit who has access to your own property?I'd like to see the owners compromise with the LE Yacht Club to allow one weekend of limited sailing annually (when the lake is full of course) but I can understand that they might just think it is trivial. After all there are plenty of other lakes available for recreation.<

The Arabunna are not the "owners", we all are. Would those who boat on the Lower Lakes, Port Phillip Bay or Sydney Harbour "compromise" with one weekend a year? Would you only drive on the Princess Highway for one week a year? Reality check required. Bazooka also appears unaware that this is a test case with other indigenous groups throughout the country watching. Indeed every boating, fishing and camping organisation is watching. Even your local football club should be concerned.

We live in a multicultural society in which no one culture can "own" the public estate. It has to be shared by all of us.

Bob

OK so there's a limit to the size of the response which caused the middle to be edited?
Bazooka is suffering from a miss-conception shared until recently by the Arabunna and still by many media commentators. Do not confuse FREEHOLD title with NATIVE title. The two are completely different. The Arabunna have been granted NATIVE TITLE to Lake Eyre and do not own it. Lake Eyre is a national park and therefore part of the public estate owned by ALL Australians. It is surrounded by Crown Land subject to pastoral lease. Native title gives the Arabunna certain rights over the area such as the ability to maintain traditional practices and have a say in development of the area such as mining.

Native Title cannot supersede common law rights. Federal Courts have already decided so as to do so would destroy our legal system.

To boat on a waterway is akin to driving on a highway. Any person has a common law right to do so. It appears that the Arabunna and the SA Govt. don't believe in "democratic law" in their attempts to stop my members boating. We tested the governments resolve last year - guess what happened - zilch.

I started this reply by saying "until recently". This was because the Arabunna, in response to our recent attempts through proper channels to prove our case, have asked the State Government for legislation to ban boating. That is it has finally sunk in that they can't stop us. It would take a very courageous government to tamper with common law rights that have existed in law for thousands of years. A high court challenge would be a practical response.

>I'd like to see the owners compromise with the LE Yacht Club to allow one weekend of limited sailing annually (when the lake is full of course) but I can understand that they might just think it is trivial. After all there are plenty of other lakes available for recreation.<

The NT Act is extremely complex Mr "Commodore" as you might be aware so I suspect your simplified portayal is far from accurate. For example, Common Law does not allow every citizen to 'boat' on any waterway he/she chooses despite what you say. And in a more general sense it is quite often the case that specific state, territory and commonwealth laws override Common Law. Whether that applies here I don't know. I also don't know the legal complexities of this particular case and haven't yet read anything about the actual title granted to the Arabunna so perhaps you can enlighten us all. Were the Arabunna granted Exclusive Possession as is sometimes the case in Native Title? What caveats were put on their title? Appreciate any links you can provide.

I'll say this though. After reading your reply - particularly the parts about the 'test case', 'driving on the Princes Hwy one day per year', and 'even your local football club should be concerned' - I can however now appreciate why they wouldn't want your particular mob there. Many of us know well that the same alarmist nonsense was rolled out before the NT legislation was enacted by the federal parliament. You probably won't be surprised that my 'sympathy' for your position has been replaced with antipathy after reading it. By all means try and mount a legal challenge. If indeed there is something sinister, illegal or unfair about the sailing ban let's see if the courts agree.

Do what they want so long as names like old girl and cobber are not removed from our language.
Dean

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