speed of some people on the Gibb River road

Submitted: Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 20:49
ThreadID: 96628 Views:3924 Replies:11 FollowUps:54
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Just completed 9 days on the GRR, great, but some people drive at crazy speeds. Nearly got cleaned up a few times. In very dusty conditions with little vision, some people just fly buy, mainly rented vehicles, some people with camper trailers also.
Met a lot of great people. Will do it again to see some gorges that we missed.
Hugh
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Reply By: Wayne's 60 - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:08

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:08
Greetings BC,

It appears to be the norm and no longer isolated.

We were out near Kalgoorlie pre Easter on the Golden Quest Trail.

On seeing a vehicle approaching us, we would slow down and move to the left hand side of the road.

On seeing that, the approaching vehicle would move to the centre of the road, SPEED UP and the occupants would wave wildy ....... just before showering us with all sorts of debris.

Not happy, not isolated, not happy.

Regards,
Wayne & Sally.
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Follow Up By: Wayne david - Tuesday, Jul 03, 2012 at 16:02

Tuesday, Jul 03, 2012 at 16:02
Wayne, As they say 'been there, done that'.

I've never been able to figure out what the hurry is with some of these guys. What's it going to save them in total time compared to the risks they take and submit others to? Plus of course damage to their vehicle.

I was on the Gibb about this time last year & vehicles (cars, buses & caravans) just flogged along the road as if it was a drag track. It was the same leading into the National Parks in Kakadu. And recently on Frazer Island. Just crazy stuff and mostly by overseas tourists trying to do too much in too little time.

What's the rush? Sure don't drag your feet but to me the journey is often just as important as the destination.

When refueling at Kunnanurra I overheard the ambulance driver talking to a local about the amount of accidents on the GRR.

Take care Wayne D
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Follow Up By: Wayne's 60 - Tuesday, Jul 03, 2012 at 20:01

Tuesday, Jul 03, 2012 at 20:01
Hi Wayne D,

Long time no hear or see, we hope all is well with you.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I believe the hurry is due to people not having an understanding of the distances to be covered, well in relation to the Gibb River Road and it appears that people try to cram the trip into a very limited time frame.

I believe the same to be true of our experience north of Kalgoorlie, people trying to cram the entire trip into the Easter four day break and this view is backed up by the fact that we had people charge past us when we were stopped at some of the major sights.

If you are not going to spend the time to see all the sights, why go?
There are many places that we have been to (and will revisit) that are different every time we are there or we are sharing the experience with different company.

We have not been along the Gibb River Road .... yet.
We hope that our paths will cross when we do.

Take care,
Cheers,
Wayne & Sally.

P.S. More often than not, the journey is more important, especially if you do not make it to the destination.
W&S.
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Follow Up By: Wayne david - Tuesday, Jul 03, 2012 at 21:01

Tuesday, Jul 03, 2012 at 21:01
Gidday Wayne 60 - My absence is due to work :( ....... and travel ;)

Damn cold weather is now keeping me from camping, yeah I know I'm just soft. Everyday I wake up, see the CT garaged and dream of Spring. Next trip I want to do is up around Cairns & off to the west to see those lakes up in the high country away from the crocs & stingers. Is it Lake Tinaroo? But we will get back to WA & NT soon enough.

I think your point about folk trying squeeze too much distance into too short a time is 100% spot on.

Point in case my local servo told me of a mini bus with German tourists pull in for fuel and he asked them 'where are you going'? Seems they were heading North to Cairns, Daintree, over to Alice Springs, Adelaide and trying to do it all in 10 days. 10 days? Crikey it takes me that long just to get the Missus in the car, packed & heading down the driveway. Ha!

Love to meet-up with you.

Cheers & beers - Wayne D 62 ;)
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Follow Up By: Wayne david - Tuesday, Jul 03, 2012 at 21:18

Tuesday, Jul 03, 2012 at 21:18
Oh I nearly forgot to explain the recent incident on Fraser Island.

That was about a month ago. Just over a week camping & exploring and taking in the sites. This one day we were returning back to camp heading South along the beach to our camp site cruising along at about 70kpm and a group of 4 V8 landcruisers overtook us.

Fair enough no probs, they must have been 'in a hurry to relax' I reasoned. Then in the rear view I spotted another Landcruiser coming up fast. It overtook me on the left (towards the waves), shot past the others, veered over to the right (where the dry sand was) and then started to fishtail.

I though 'oh oh..........here we go' and eased off 1/2 expecting a roll over. It regained control and took the lead to turn to Eli Creek parking spot all of 20 seconds later.

I'm telling you it was all a very near thing. And to what.....pull into the next tourist stop a moment later?

Of course it was a hire vehicle, so the idea of looking after the vehicle wasn't on their radar.

Having said that, most drivers were fantastic. Lots of signals, thank you waves and general consideration for fellow travellers.

I'm now seriously considering undergoing a defensive driving course. I think it would be money well spent.

Take care - Wayne D
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Follow Up By: Wayne's 60 - Wednesday, Jul 04, 2012 at 02:09

Wednesday, Jul 04, 2012 at 02:09
I'm thinking that the only appropriate defensive driving course .....................

would involve how to maneuver 30 tonnes of metal .......... shaped like a tank!!

and we look forward to seeing you in the outback, soon!!

Cheers,
Wayne & Sally.
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Follow Up By: blown4by - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 00:06

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 00:06
I understand there was a bad accident on the GRR last week. A troopie towing a camper trailer had stopped at the road side to check for the possibility of a flat tyre and an idiot following in the troopies dust rammed in to the camper trailer at speed. Because the rear passengers in the troopie had removed their seat belts as they were about to get out when they were hit from behind they were badly injured and had to be 'choppered' out to hospital.
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Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 07:38

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 07:38
Stop with the dramatics. That following car, who cares what it was, may only have been doing 40. Why is he an idiot. Maybe the stopped car was in the middle of the road. Who knows. The GRR is both very wide and very narrow in places. Four lanes to almost one. Did the car in front stopped in the narrow part. We do not know otherwise you would have said that.

Why also do we have to stop if we come up behind a slow moving car, even if it is just his dust. Make a slow approach yes. Stop - not always. He could have been following a grader for all he knows and soon he would be past him.

So lets wait until we get some facts before damning anyone!

Yes it is bad and overtaking with dust around needs a few brains and common sense.

When we come across this situation I stay back until I can see past the car in front. I do not need to actually see the car. Just enough to see where he is and always to see if anyone is coming. When I can see ahead I then drive as far right as I can until past at a reasonable difference in speed. Not 200KPH and not 5kms faster. Get around and back as safely as possibe And try (TRY) not to shower the slow one with rocks and debris.

When we stop it is ALWAYS in a clear area and well off to the side. Even in the scrub.

It can be dangerious overtaking and it is made worse by cars going too slow. We do our best. This tragic and unfortunately accident will happen again unless we all drive at 5 KPH with a bloke leading us on foot with a red flag waving and like sheep lining up at the latee bar, there will be more.

Tragic and very, very regrettable, but leave the dramatics to the journalists please.
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Follow Up By: blown4by - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 10:51

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 10:51
PJR, thank you for the unsolicited driving lesson. You are entitled to your opinion and so am I. I think you have answered you own question: "Why also do we have to stop if we come up behind a slow moving car, even if it is just his dust. Make a slow approach yes. Stop - not always. He could have been following a grader for all he knows and soon he would be past him." The reason you have to stop PJR is that if you cannot see ahead, it is just possible that someone may have stopped as you say and if you cannot see them because of the dust or if the dust is such that you cannot see past them to safely overtake then if you don't collide with their rear you may risk having a 'head-on' with an oncoming vehicle appearing at speed through the dust cloud - but that is OK I suppose because it was your right not to stop.
Whist I agree with some of your principles I do not see what was 'dramatic' about my post. Accidents do not happen, they are caused. Regardless of the finer details one vehicle ran in to the REAR of another vehicle it was following and the occupants of the stopped vehicle were hospitalised. This should never happen. It is illegal to drive in conditions of poor visibility such that you cannot see far enough ahead to stop in time to avoid a collision. This is in the Road Traffic Act 1974. So are you saying IF a vehicle had broken an axle or spring and could not avoid stopping ON the road the person following has the right to just drive in to the rear of the stopped vehicle. Well the law does not agree with you. I am not sure your thoughts that would be very comforting to the injured persons or their families if the outcome had been worse. There are a few principles driving in the outback including PATIENCE and driving with due care and attention. Yes I have lived and driven extensively in the outback both professionally and as a tourist. I too have driven in conditions and if the wind is blowing from the left to right, I have called up road trains on the two-way and the drivers have moved over to the right to allow me to pass safely on the left or at least told me when it was safe to pass in their dust. There are also other defensive driving techniques such as waiting for a bend in the road or when cresting a hill to try and see how far ahead the vehicle is that you are following or dropping back far enough so the dust has cleared and you may be able to see how far ahead the vehicle is at the front of the dust cloud. You seem to be saying that it is the RIGHT of a passing vehicle to cause an accident if the slower vehicle does not get out of their way. Why not stop for 15 or 20 minutes (well off the road) and let them get far enough ahead of you that they no longer cause you a problem. Is that 20 minutes worth at best an insurance claim and being stranded or at worst a death? I also have consideration for my air cleaner element and hate driving in another persons dust unless for reasons that are absolutely necessary and I cannot think of many. Once again, thank you for the driving lesson which I did not request nor do I need. I was simply posting some facts by way of a positive contribution about an accident that actually occurred on the road that was being discussed in the post initiated by another person. I do have to say however that I find you opinions expressed about a person you have never met to be objectionable and you leave me with the impression that you are one of those drivers whose attitude is that they 'own the road'. Maybe living in NSW has made you indifferent to road trauma and if that is the case I pity you but please don't let that determine how you think you have the right to drive in WA.
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Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 13:53

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 13:53
Give the man a soapbox. I was talking about the unnecessary dramatising of the accident without any hard evidence. Such as calling the bloke behind an "iduiot".

Dont know what you are on about.
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Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 14:14

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 14:14
Pity no editor.

All I was doing was giving some examples where either driver could be okay or even an idiot. I just get annoyed at people who have a go at sometone and call them an idiot before putting their brains in gear and getting all the facts. If they want to call the car behind an idiot then say what they based it on. The write above did none of this. We get enough of that rubbish on TV and in the media in general.
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Follow Up By: blown4by - Thursday, Jul 12, 2012 at 22:23

Thursday, Jul 12, 2012 at 22:23
Soapbox?? I am not the one with 18 posts on here!
If you did not comprehend my post I will put it in simple terms for you.
If someone runs in to the the rear of another vehicle then he is an idiot.
Also he is not driving with due care and attention and if driving in conditions of poor visibility and he could not stop in time to avoid a collision then he is 'out driving' the range of his visibility and stopping distance. Both stupid practices.
BTW I think your reference to idiots and tools in your later posts is somewhat emotive and should be left to the journalists.
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Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Friday, Jul 13, 2012 at 07:31

Friday, Jul 13, 2012 at 07:31
Fancy going to all the trouble of counting my posts. I can't believe it. So here is number 19.

Simply amazing.
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, Jul 13, 2012 at 08:21

Friday, Jul 13, 2012 at 08:21
Drive to the conditions, and the onus is all on the driver doing the overtaking from behind to ensure it is safe to do so, regardless of the speed of anything in front of him. Instill this in people and you shouldn’t need a man with a red flag and a speed limit of 5kph...

Cut it anyway you like, but you’re pretty dumb if you rear-end another car, given you have full control of your vehicle, can adjust your driving, and can see what is happening in front of you (which might mean a cloud of dust preventing you seeing anything else!). Common sense and the law will mostly convict anyone guilty of rear-ending someone.

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Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Friday, Jul 13, 2012 at 08:42

Friday, Jul 13, 2012 at 08:42
True it is the onus of the one behind. Yes you could very easily say that the one behind was totally at fault but to call him an idiot and dramatize it is wrong.

I am not debating that.

It is the automatic assumption that the one in the rear is totally and unamistakenly in the wrong and an IDIOT. Let the police and judicial system work that out. Criticise all you want. But be constructive, fair and open minded. Otherwise it is as bad as mob rule. As we have here with those who in ignorance say that the one in the rear in THIS case is an idiot.

I hope readers finally understand my point here.
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Follow Up By: blown4by - Friday, Jul 13, 2012 at 17:49

Friday, Jul 13, 2012 at 17:49
The Landy: I agree with you 100%.
PJR (NSW): I am sorry, I did not realise that you were the only respondent allowed to have an opinion and a point of view on here. Please accept my most humble apologies. If I ever decide to have an opinion again in the future I will check with you first before posting.
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Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Friday, Jul 13, 2012 at 18:41

Friday, Jul 13, 2012 at 18:41
It got out of hand. And I will shut up in future.
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Follow Up By: blown4by - Saturday, Jul 14, 2012 at 00:15

Saturday, Jul 14, 2012 at 00:15
No problem.
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Reply By: Motherhen - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:29

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:29
We had a couple of anxious moments as oncoming vehicles drifted into our path. We were following a fairly cautious tour coach one morning and he gave an oncoming vehicle a serve for driving to fast on the two-way. Good on him.

It beats me why those with camper trailers that were travelling in groups were nose to tail hiding in the next one's dust. Didn't want to let go of the bumper in front because they couldn't see through the dust cloud LOL? I hope they cleaned their air filters each night!

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Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:34

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:34
They do that so that there isn't any room for overtaking vehicles to slip in front of them!! Don't want to lose their place in the queue. Just like sheep. Baaaaaa

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Follow Up By: blown4by - Saturday, Jul 07, 2012 at 23:49

Saturday, Jul 07, 2012 at 23:49
Combinations exceeding 7.5m in length must travel 200m apart unless overtaking in WA. Pity the inconsiderate majority do not seem to be aware of that nor do they pull over to let faster vehicles get past
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Reply By: ken triton - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:40

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:40
We also just completed the Gibb River Road, it seams that courtesy and common sense are lacking. It does not take lot of effort to slow down when passing an oncoming vehicle, it makes travelling in the dust and stones much more pleasurable and safe for everyone. I wonder if the company's hiring 4WD'S give any sort of driving tips to their clients. All I can say is keep your concentration at the highest level when travelling on any outback roads
Ken
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Reply By: PJR (NSW) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:42

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:42
Hugh

So that we know what you call a "crazy speed". What speed were you travelling at when they would "fly bye"? (note the spelling. A "fly buy" is a card that some supermarket is promoting)

On this weekend we went to Sydney and back. On both the down and up trip we passed several learners travelling at about 60 to 80, with the speed limit set at 110. We also flew bye them. Was it the same on the GRR with you? If so then may I suggest that you could speed up some. What the learners were doing was down right dangerous, considering that the highway was quite full of holiday traffic all travelling at around the 105 to 110 mark. Not illegal, true, but dangerous.
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Follow Up By: Member - Ian W1 (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:46

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:46
I thought the speed limit for learners was a max of 80kmh, even if the psoted limit was 110kmh.
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Follow Up By: Ozhumvee - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:52

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:52
Exactly which is dangerous in itself.
Especially after they have a considerable number of hours up and are after passing the test they are given a licence to drive at a speed they have never driven at!
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Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:54

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 21:54
True Ian. Thats why I said "Not illegal, true, but dangerous".

So what is your point?

Are you saying that what they were doing was fine? If so then ask the poor drivers who nearly ran up their tail because the tools in the right hand lane would not let them merge to get around the slow moving cars.
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Follow Up By: Geoff H (Q - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 22:00

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 22:00
The following driver has the onus, not the learner.
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Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 22:04

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 22:04
Fly by.

Note the spelling.

A "fly bye" is when you wave goodbye to someone at the airport....

I'm glad I ain't too scared to be lazy
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Follow Up By: Member - Ian W1 (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 22:06

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 22:06
Hi PJR, yes I am saying what they were doing was fine ---LEGALLY; I guess my point was that they (the learners) can't be blamed! I totally agree it can be a danger to other road users and indirectly cause accidents due to frustration levels etc. but what is the answer? Bu@#@ed if I know! I also agree with Peter, that they need some experience in driving a little faster than the set 80kmh so that other drivers don't 'fly by' them.
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Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 22:10

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 22:10
By the way PJR, driving to Sydney and back, no matter what road you use, is not the same as driving along the GRR.

You obviously haven't been there.

The drivers that Hugh is talking about, drive as if the RAC (NRMA to you) and a hospital are both around the next corner.

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Follow Up By: Member - peter C (VIC) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 22:20

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 22:20
just completed savannah way from roper bar to borroloola.towing my van we sat between 40 and 60 kmh but occassionally were travelling at 20k or less.always pulled over and slowed further [sometimes stopped] for oncoming vehicles.I was not overtaken by any vehicles the whole way except for a troopy on the lorella springs access road.I am grateful the speedsters were on the GRR and yes I do look in my mirrors and camera so know that I was not forming a convoy behind.
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Follow Up By: OutBack Wanderers - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 22:22

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 22:22
Dear PJR

And just where do you expect learner drivers learn at 80kph, in the side streets at 50kph?

Where did you and others learnt to drive at 80kph?

The dangerous ppl are those who nearly drove up near their tail, if I remembered correctly, 3 secs in dry, 6 secs when wet,

Ozhumvee, after passing test they are restricted to 90kph, which isn't much difference to 80kph, but, if they wish to exceed that limit, they are free to do so, and then we'll have you complaining next week, they're going to fast.

Strange, I've never driven at a certain speed because I've never driven it, but one day at Orimbah, I succeeded to 100 mph on a Bonnie 750, it lasted a whole 10 secs, finally done it, never gone back to it, 100mph.

So with your logic, any person passing his/her licence should not exceed 80kph because they've never driven past 80kph, I can just image thousands of P-platers ALL doing 80kph because Ozhummer says its dangerous for them to do so.

Whilst standing on my front porch, I listened as I heard the roar of two engines, there they were, 2 4WD's one towing an 18ft caravan, the other, a 12ft out-board motor boat, racing at full power, at estimated speeds of

4WD Caravan 140kph

4WD Boat 160kph to overtake the caravan.

All this in a small country town, pop 500, in a 60 kph zone, and you have the hide to call the learner-drivers dangerous

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Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 23:15

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 23:15
Geoff Yes. You are correct and I do not blame anyone I am just saying that the situation caused by the crowded highway, the speed differences and the selfishness of a lot of the faster drivers and the learner’s offsider led to some quite close calls. Luckily in each situation there were not any accidents. Maybe it would have been better to instruct on a less crowded road or even a less crowded day. And people should be more helpful when people need to merge. That’s all.

Gone Bush: Sir I bow to you better judgment. Got me!!! Says he as he falls dramatically to the ground clutching the gaping and blood spilling wound to his chest. He gone by –bye.

Ian As I said to Geoff “Maybe it would have been better to instruct on a less crowded road or even a less crowded day”. Also in some states such as NSW there is a progressive allowance for “P”s that is hoped will alleviate the lack of experience in driving at 110 KPH. As a driver from days when country roads did not have speed limits I wouldn’t call 110 KPH fast. That’s only 60 miles per hour. The problem is really the crowding and selfish and ignorant manners of today’s drivers. And I personally believe it is the majority of today’s drivers. Mainly those from the cities. And I say this as an ex city driver who woke up and moved to the friendly country.

Peter. Good on you mate. Maybe our friend could take a leaf out of your book. We do not know. But lets wait and see what the OP said was a fast speed. Maybe he was sitting on 20 and the others were doing 60. That’s three times his speed, but not what I would call fast at all on the GRR. We do not know. His post was also one sided and emotive. We also have a windscreen camera and I will see if the stuff covering one of the slow car problem is still there and post it up.

This sounding like I am writing a book.

Fini






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Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 23:36

Sunday, Jul 01, 2012 at 23:36
Outback

As I already said “Maybe it would have been better to instruct on a less crowded road or even a less crowded day“. Do as I did with my students. I waited until a less crowded day. But that was in the 70’s and people had more common sense then.

Me? Learners were not restricted when I got my licence. But I had been driving all sorts of stuff from tractors through farm truck and cars in my pre’legal days. I actually did 100 MPH on many occasions back then while learning. Dad reckoned that I should learn how, so I did up above Bulli, with him beside me. But not on Sundays nor on crowded roads like this weekend.

We had one of those big six cylinder Humbers that just cruised at 100MPH. As a side note I later drove on the old Hume from Liverpool (Sydney) to Balcombe (south of Melbourne) in under 8 hours and all legal. And safe with people letting you pass not yelling out, flashing their lights, one finger saluting nor “giving a gobfull”. Some would even tag along for a while. Especially those lovely 351 GTHO’s. But I would not even think of trying it these days. No way. Of course it was a Kingswood!!!!

Learning how to drive and getting the licence is just the start. Actually gaining experience does not finish until we die. Anyone who says otherwise is having themselves on. I wonder how many here have had all wheels gummed up with oil on a slippery wet road with all wheels stopped (motor as well) and still managed to regain control? Not me. But I will never forget the experience and how it started. Even the coppers who tested it pranged one of their cars. Yet another regained control. See! Still gaining experience after 40 years driving that happened to me.
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Follow Up By: Scooter13 - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 00:51

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 00:51
Seems like some people have short memories... we were all learners once.

Trouble is people want it both ways .... we've put this onus on new drivers to be better learners by insisting they put requisite hours up (150 !!) and then get grumpy when they try to make the hours the only feasible way possible (long trips up the expressway) - can't have it both ways folks.

Just show some patience - we were all there at some stage.
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Follow Up By: Scooter13 - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 00:55

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 00:55
and the "it was different in my days" arguement doesn't wash. There were less cars and more tolerance for making mistakes.

Some poeple tend to forget a heck of a lot of people died on our highway system in the 60's & 70's until voter pressure on the gubberment to do something about it.

New roads is one of them - better learner training was another plank.
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Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 09:19

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 09:19
Very true Scooter.

The response about my learning to drive was to an accusation about how I learnt "back in the old days". It was not meant to be any "plank" as a comparison to todays ways. We were bloody lucky. I think that you missread me. Or worse still you have not read this whole conversation.

Why the almighty rush to get behind the wheel and kill someone because the learner did not use the right gear and while looking down at the gearstick he ran a red light. All drivers have the rest of their lives to get experience. Let them learn where it is best to put their hands. Learn how to judge distances. How to pick the correct gear and balance the brake and clutch pedal. And when they can handle the car proficiently then give them some experience in traffic. But still try to keep it safe and hassle free. No need for what was going on this weekend. But yes they were legal. Totally legal.

Tell that to the woman on the footpath who lost her baby when the total tool in the car behind suddenly had to swerve to miss someone ahead who was idling along at 40 in an 80 zone through Frankstone. Similar with the learners this weekend. All legal. Considerate - I question that!

Anyway to all;

What I said was as a spectator of a few unfortunate "almost accidents" that were caused by both experienced and selfish people in a rush to either get to their holiday or were not prepared to wait a bit until they or their children got "some hours up". Luckily no prangs. And some people wonder why we never go on holidays at Easter and Cristmas when the crowds are at their worst.

I am still waiting to see what the original OP said he was travelling at. We can then get back to the initial emotive post and be constructive.
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Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 09:51

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 09:51
Gone Bush

"You obviously haven't been there" WRONG! Nearly missed that little quip at me. Of course I have been there. And for 8 weeks and loved all we could see in that short time. However we both agree that GRR itself is just a long wide dirt road with a few narrow and slow section on it. And I have read plenty of threads that say the same so it is not just my word here. It is quite safe at 80 KPH or even more in places where it is as wide as a four lane highway. I for the life of me cannot see the big deal about "doing the Gibb". Yes the Kimberley is every bit worth visiting and experiencing. But the Gibb. Seriously it is just a big, well maintained (kind of) major back road.

What's more important is where it takes you.

Also about "The drivers that Hugh is talking about, drive as if the RAC (NRMA to you) and a hospital are both around the next corner." Maybe you are correct, but how do we know! Hugh has not responded with some hard facts. At no stage have I read what he calls fast or slow or at what speed he considers that we should all drive. It is all emotive and thus not necessarily the truth. It would help if he would just answer my question. And honestly.

Why am I continuing with this thread: Read on.
My family and I were in the lane next to a mate who was chatting on the radio with some collegues. He was saying how bad the traffic was and complaining about tailgaters, a pet topic of his. Low and behold he was less that one, yes ONE, car length from the one in front at 80KPH. He did not know we were there as we were just sand bagging. To this day I have never mentioned it to him. However thinking back, I should have. And that is what I am doing now. Maybe Hugh is one of those "Some Mothers Do Have Them" type of drivers who believes all should travel at half the posted speed limit. I said MAYBE!


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FollowupID: 765080

Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 09:54

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 09:54
It doesn't really matter what figure was on the OP's speedo. He was, I'm sure, driving at a speed to suit the conditions, it's a fair bet that the others weren't.

I've experienced it myself with stupid drivers appearing out of the dust on my right. No radio call, no tooting of the horn, just blasting past on hills and blind corners.

Staggering arrogance and stupidity.

Thrifty rent-a-Prados are the most guilty.




I'm glad I ain't too scared to be lazy
- Augustus McCrae (Lonesome Dove)

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FollowupID: 765081

Follow Up By: landseka - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 10:21

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 10:21
Quote> "Tell that to the woman on the footpath who lost her baby when the total tool in the car behind suddenly had to swerve to miss someone ahead who was idling along at 40 in an 80 zone through Frankstone. Similar with the learners this weekend. All legal. Considerate - I question that!"

I think if someone had to swerve onto the footpath to avoid running into the back of a car doing 40 in an 80 zone then that 'someone' should get their head out of their bum, put the phone down and concentrate on their driving before they kill someone.

As I have noticed before it seems that anyone travelling faster than us is a 'damn fool' and anyone travelling slower is a 'damn roadhog' lol.
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FollowupID: 765084

Follow Up By: BUSH CAMPER - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 10:28

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 10:28
We were towing an off road caravan and travelling at safe speeds of between 55 - 80kms per hour were possible. The hire cars travelling towards us were the worst, showering rocks and stone everywhere. We slowed right down when we saw them coming.
Then you have the camper trailers travelling in convoy coming up behind you, the front one had good views of the scenery, while the rest only saw dust.
When they come up behind you and pass, all you see is someone going past, then before you know it there's another one in the dust beside you, then another.
We were scanning the channels, but rarely heard the front telling the others that they were clear. At times we had to slow right down as we had no visibility at all until the dust cleared and not knowing if someone would slam us up the rear.
All in all we had a great time, so enjoy the trip and drive to the conditions.
Hugh
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FollowupID: 765085

Follow Up By: Member - Matt M - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 10:54

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 10:54
With an L plater in the family now, it does make me think a little more about all this. In general terms, the 80K speed limit is fine. The speed differential on most single lane (80-100K) roads is manageable and a reasonable speed limit I think. Interesting to note though that the ACT allows learners to drive at the posted speed limit. Not many roads in the ACT, so that is OK I guess. But, the speed differential on freeways does (IMHO) create some serious issues 30k+ can cause some havoc.

Easy to say avoid busy periods with learners, but gaining the required 120 hours is a challenge and in any case, driving on a busy freeway is a skill that I want my son to learn with me beside him, not for the first time on P plates. I seem to remember that there used to be some restrictions on where L platers could drive (Sydney CBD off limits from memory), but someone may correct me on this. My sister in law lives in Sydney and they have twins coming up to L plates; don't envy them at all but you do need to take every opportunity to get the hours up. Not as a box ticking exercise, but because it actually isn't much when compared to a lifetime of driving.

Personally I think that there is a reasonably simple answer. Bump the L plater speed limit to 100 on 110 posted roads. 10K difference is not too bad and far less dangerous. Generally the road is much better and it is a judgement call from the supervising driver as to when the learner is ready to try this. Same goes for any other situation, you are not going to launch your L plater into peak hour traffic on day 1, need to work up to it and this is a judgement call.

There is certainly some inconvenience with having 'slow' L platers on fast roads. But I tend to look at it from the point of view that we are all (to some extent) responsible for training learners. So making some allowance for them is a small investment if it means that it produces a better driver at the end because that driver will eventually share the road with the rest of us.

Here's another thought. Would love to find someone experienced (maybe someone retired) who would be prepared to take L platers driving on weekends, maybe for fuel cost and a small payment. The more sets of eyes and experience cast over them the better.

Cheers.
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FollowupID: 765086

Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 11:32

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 11:32
Hi Hugh.

That then makes sense. And I agree with the hire car stuff. We met one bloke who had gone through three flats since Perth. Yep a hire car and no tyre pressure adjustment at all - brainless. May be a bit slow for what the GRR was when we were ther but I gather that you drove to what you were comfortable with. And rightly so. I was wondering if you were going to turn out to be the "Some Mothers Do Have Then" type saying that the you must not go faster than 40KPH on the Gib. And yes it has been said before.

But not all idiots are hire car drivers. Having said that there are also a lot that are regular 4WDers as well. Amazing what can be found out by comparing information from places like youtube, facebook and photo hosting sites such as photobucket. One good one was a bloke who at a club meeting was raving on about hoons tearing up the forrest tracks in the mud. He proudly posted photos of his "truck" nicely polished with all the good gear on the roof and showing the quite unique stickers on the windows, on a 4wd "your shed" site and then using a similar screen name had a video on youtube with the unique stickers visible. Bingo! No need for number plates. One "two faced" hoon unmasked.

I agree on the scanning as well. We have two radios running. A handheld on scan and the car one set to the local frequency. Helps pick up the "missed" call on the scanning one. Good for desert running as well.

And good to see you enjoyed the place. We were up there for weeks and will go back. Hopefully. But there are lots of other places to see first.

We had a truck go past us and we pulled over until the dust cleared. I saw him coming and was ready to stop. The rock guard in front of the bullbar had heaps of rock dents in it as well. It's just 10mm square chicken wire over a 1/4 inch metal frame. Saved the lights and radiator. But unfortunately not the windscreen.
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FollowupID: 765087

Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 11:52

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 11:52
This is getting rediculous. Now we have one poster who is starting off on saying how wrong it was for the tool to be using the mobile phone and nearly hitting the one in front.

I made a simple suggestion that it may have been a better idea not to use the first or last weekend of the holidays to have the speed restricted learner on the 110 KPH highway. I did not say that it was illegal. I did not say that he did not have the right to be there. We are talking about about approximately just a measerly 12 days a year where this applies. Just a bit more than 3% of the whole year.

Sorry but I wouldn't trust the idiots who don't drive ahead of themselves, text on the phone and do any number of stupid things. There are hundreds of scenarios that could lead to someone hitting your rear end. I just think that it's not worth tempting fate with an inexperienced learner who could panic or freeze, like those three or four instructor drivers did.

We have ascertained now that Hugh was not his nibs from the TV show and that there are tools everywhere.
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FollowupID: 765089

Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 11:55

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 11:55
Good post Matt.
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FollowupID: 765090

Follow Up By: The Landy - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 13:17

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 13:17
I understand the thrust of the discussion to the extent the question being asked is whether school holiday periods is a good time to have vehicles on the road travelling at a speed substantially less than other vehicles.

But ultimately, aren’t we all required to drive to the conditions that are presented at any given time, regardless of what is causing them? For those travelling the F3 freeway out of Sydney, an area which has plenty of L-platers on most weekends, if you are unable to adjust to the speed of this group of slower vehicles in a safe and considerate manner, how do you get on with all the trucks that travel that road, especially on the hills. Many of them are well under 80kph hauling out of the Hawkesbury River and other places. Do you remove them from the road at these times also, and what about the caravan in the middle-lane of a three-lane highway doing 90kph? I’m sure the F3 is not the only place this occurs.

Heaven forbid, someone will want to ban me and ‘The Landy’ given it is no speed machine.

Personally, I don’t think the L-platers on our highways are the problem, but is borne out of the fact that increasingly we live in a world where everyone seems to be time poor, and this has bred an intolerance to ‘anyone who gets in my way – whether on the road, or at the local McDonalds’.

My point is simply this, if getting to your destination is time critical, give yourself more time, drive to the conditions, and relax, the roads will be a better place for it...



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FollowupID: 765097

Follow Up By: member - mazcan - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 13:40

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 13:40
hi landy
i think you nailed it we live in a ----ME ! ---society where everyone seems to have the attitude that they are more important than anyone else and everyone should get out of their road
p-platers and learners have to drive in all types of traffic in order to gain experience and i think most drivers are forgetting that they had to learn in the past
but have lost their respect long ago for all the other drivers out on the road no matter what their ability is and hence and have developed the self importance of ---- the me society
cheers
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FollowupID: 765098

Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 14:13

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 14:13
A tad off the mark Landy

We were talking about having inexperienced learners caught up in heavy start of holidays, highway 110 KPH rush traffic. That it may be be best for all if the teaching of how to drive a car was kept another day when the learner didn't freeze up when a tool came up to their bumper. Of when a similar tool who was following a bloke who was allowed to merge right suddenly swung into the right lane and left the tool with a hell of a braking problem before hitting the slow travelling (but legal) learner. That it may be best to teach on any day other than one of the 12 worst days of the year. Legal or illegal and rights to learn/drive were not the issue. The safety of all at a bad time when tools are abundant was paramount. Just like when the restrick heavy wide and dangerous slow moving traffic to suitable hours and roads etc.
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FollowupID: 765101

Follow Up By: Nargun51 - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 15:23

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 15:23
My youngest is almost up to her 12 months on ‘L’ plates... we wanted her to get as much experience in as many different traffic conditions as possible and, therefore, she is our chauffeur. Almost every time a car goes out the driveway, she is driving. She got the requisite (Victorian) hours up in 3 months.

She’s driven past private schools at drop off/pick up times, down Chapel Street on Saturday nights, found a parking spot in Chadstone Shopping Centre on Boxing Day, driven (and parallel parked!) in Bridge Road on Sundays, through the Dandenongs on wet, dark nights and learnt to curse trams in Brunswick Street. She’s even travelled at 110 kph for 2 1/2 hours, keeping up with the line of traffic on the Hume. She does need more experience in driving on dirt and narrow ‘C’ rural roads to “read” them properly and how to develop a rhythm over windy roads.

When she sits for her licence, she will have in excess of 400 hours experience in 12 months.

Berating ‘L’ platers for gaining experience in every traffic situation is self defeating. Every learner needs to be exposed to as many varied driving experiences as possible, and in doing so, they will be safer for everybody else on the road (and that includes grumpy old men).

Victoria dropped different speed limits for ‘P’ platers in 1977 (?); the reason given was that the speed difference between drivers was unsafe. I have always found NSW’s creation of mobile chicanes for ‘P’ platers to a right royal pain in the bum and counterproductive from a road safety perspective.
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FollowupID: 765109

Follow Up By: The Landy - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 15:58

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 15:58
Hi PJR

I'm not so sure I'm that wide of the mark with my post, but in any case, I say let’s just get rid of the 'tools' if they are the ones causing the problem.

After all there is always going to be slow moving vehicles on freeways whether it is the start of school holidays or any other time, it could be a truck hauling a load, Ma & Pa with the caravan and two dogs, or the L-Plate driver trying to gain experience... Or heaven forbid, me and ‘The Landy’. If someone is driving unsafely we need to fix that problem first...

I’ll leave it to others to debate / comment further...
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FollowupID: 765110

Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 16:50

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 16:50
Nargun and Landy read what I said to you two again.

The topic at hand is directed at what the licenced driver did with the learners just this weekend on one of the 12 most dangerours days on the road. Especially a 110 KPH chock full highway. Not the learner and only about a specific situation.

Absolutely nothing to do with "P" platers either.

Nargun please quote the exact phrase where the learner is berated in my response to you.

I bet neither of you clearly understand what happened.

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FollowupID: 765114

Follow Up By: The Landy - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 17:06

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 17:06
Yep...got it, all clear to me

So let's remove him (the tool) from the road rather than the learner!

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FollowupID: 765116

Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 17:26

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 17:26
The tool was not the issue either.
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FollowupID: 765122

Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 17:44

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 17:44
Some people amaze me. I wonder if those who said above that it was a good idea to take learners out into typical heavy, fast and selfish "we" traffic, really meant to say that.

But I have had enough. Most did not even want to stay on topic. They were just like pollies. Found the word tool and automatically though they should attack the tool when the tool was not the issue. Then we had the sms texter at fault. Again off thread. I must say that the site did not dissappoint me.

Amazing how not one person agreed fully with my concern for the safety of the innocent learner and to leave the rough stuff until a quieter day or when they had a "P" plate.

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FollowupID: 765130

Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 19:11

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 19:11
PJR,

You took the original post off topic.

You introduced driving to Sydney and Learner drivers.

Neither had anything to do with the OP which was about the GRR.

I'm glad I ain't too scared to be lazy
- Augustus McCrae (Lonesome Dove)

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FollowupID: 765141

Follow Up By: PJR (NSW) - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 19:59

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 19:59
very true mate And apart dfrom you not one person tagged it as off topic. People were more interested in talking about tools and rights etc than undertsanding that I was off topic. I am guilty of trying to find out how long. That is why I repeatedly highlighted my point. Michael will kill me.

Catchya. 34 days to go. Cannot say where as it is off topic
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FollowupID: 765147

Reply By: wombat100 - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 10:50

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 10:50
I guess I should put my hand up for this one.
Near Napier Downs to Northern Hwy intesection (near Kununurra)- just on 600kms in 6 hours....at night !!!
And that was back in 1979 when that road wasn't all that flash...and in a 2wd.
Cheers
The Wombat
AnswerID: 489941

Reply By: olcoolone - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 14:05

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 14:05
Bush Camper....... every one has a different skill set and what may seem dangerous to one might not be to someone else.

This also depends on vehicle type and how it's set up.

As we get older we may get a bit wiser but the biggest thing getting older is we loose our skill sets and we forget others may still have these skill sets..... but seeing we have lost ours we think everyone else should drive as we do.

With out 200 series we can sit on a higher average speed then friends in their solid axle Patrols and Landcruisers, this was the same when we had our Hilux...... are we driving dangerously....NO.

You jump in to their Patrols and Landcruisers and you can see why they travel slower.... the ride and how they takes the rough conditions your lucky to have any teeth left.

We have passed many other travellers when we have been towing our camper and at speeds that may be up to 30Kph faster then them........ of course we slow down whilst overtaking.

People also have different eyesight and reaction times may be better so to them it's safe....... as long as they don't exceed the speed limit and drive stupid (airborne off a crests) then I don't see an issue.

AnswerID: 489948

Reply By: Member - Duncan W (WA) - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 15:18

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 15:18
Interesting how the follow-ups ended up on a right royal tangent, from the GRR to L Platers to pedestrians and buy-by's.

So back on the topic as originally posted.

Agree with what Bush Camper says about some of the drivers on the GRR. We encountered on more than one occassion vehicles that appeared to be driving quite fast (approaching cars always look like they are driving fast with dust behind them). On one particularly blind corner we copped a bloke on our side appearing out of the dust I just had enough room on the left to dodge him and he saw me at the last moment also.

Other memeerable moment was when we had just left El Q heading north and crossing the first causeway on the GRR past the ElQ road when this Suzuki Brumby or similar comes hurtling around the bend and slides into the causway sideways. Luckily I was only dawdling otherwise my wife would have been wearing his bumper.

It's all well and good driving at speed, whether posted or under the limit, but you must drive to the conditions and on corners stick to your own side if you cannot see beyond the corner.

Dunc
Make sure you give back more than you take

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AnswerID: 489957

Reply By: braggy - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 16:43

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 16:43
Bush Camper
,I have found that if you sit/stay in the middle of the road untill you see them slowing down, works well


Cheers Ken
AnswerID: 489963

Follow Up By: BUSH CAMPER - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 18:26

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 18:26
Thanks Ken, I agree about sitting in the middle at times and also flash my lights if I know that some one is travelling behind me. I had one person come over the radio and thank me for the warning.
I have been in the VIC SES as a volunteer for 35 years in the Bannockburn unit and have seen the results of high speed head ons, on to many occasions. At least in our area help is not far away, but out on the GRR it would be terrible, just waiting for the correct help to arrive.
We do 4X4 accreditation and I was also in the Geelong 4X4 club for many years. This has taught me the correct way to drive in the conditions that are presented.
Hugh
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FollowupID: 765137

Reply By: Bazooka - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 18:29

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 18:29
If you're showering other road users with stones then you're going too fast. Common sense and common courtesy.
AnswerID: 489976

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Jul 03, 2012 at 09:30

Tuesday, Jul 03, 2012 at 09:30
The biggest problem is the influx of so called "urban 4x4ers" who have never driven long distances or in the outback before and go like a bat out of hell only thinking of them selves.

We always slow down when approaching on coming vehicles and go a far left as possible..... in some cases of truck coming towards us we get of the road as far as we can and wait until they have passed.

We got a nice stone chip 3 years ago coming out of Lake Eyre from a lady driver in a NEW BLACK BLINGED UP Ford Range towing a NEW camper trailer who was not doing the 60Kph speed limit and then 5k down the track some knob in a standard Mitsubishi Exceed driving in the middle of the road through some S bends.......

Real outback travellers have common sense and courtesy....... it's the week end urban 4x4ers who don't.
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FollowupID: 765185

Reply By: Rockape - Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 18:43

Monday, Jul 02, 2012 at 18:43
Hugh,
I am afraid curtesy has gone out the window for many years now.

I followed an elderly gentleman towing a van on a dirt road this morning. We just followed him to a gate and passed them there at about 5kph.

For the ones that don't slow I don't stuff around and when they are nearly on me I just hit the loud pedal. It is amazing how many rocks fly off those big tyres of mine.

I am not one for turning the other cheek and believe in an eye for an eye.

From what I saw on the GRR it sadly seemed manly were only driving that road so they could say they had done it. Hell it is only another dirt road in the dry.
AnswerID: 489977

Reply By: Sigmund - Wednesday, Jul 04, 2012 at 09:04

Wednesday, Jul 04, 2012 at 09:04
We've done 3 outback trips now and had the windscreen trashed twice by oncoming 4bies barrelling down gravel roads, not slowing and moving to the side.

Now, if I see they're not doing the right thing I give them something to think about my flashing the lights several times. They take it as a hazard warning, which it is, of my developing road rage!
AnswerID: 490095

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