Uluru Climb May Soon Close

It is not public land. The area is owned freehold by the local people. They let the National Parks Service manage it. They can make the rules just as you can decide to let, or not to let, people climb on the roof of your house.

I don't think they actually LET the National Parks run it, its more like the government don't have faith in them to run it. Personally I would like to see the Aboriginals run the entire place, it would be good for business and would give many needed jobs to the Aboriginals. Michael

Michael, you have a lot more faith than I have.

Paul

Michael of Moss vale. You might like to refer to my later post on ownership of the whole place. The tourist complex was purchased from the Voyages group by an aboriginal corporation last year. The emphasis is now heavily on training. One of the young trainees I spoke from actually was from Moss Vale. I met him, and others, at the staff lunch canteen where all staff can meet (He was learning landscaping and he in particular talked about the positive effect Yulara is having in encouraging young people to leave their communities to get training). Whether or not the Natiolal Parks manages the place as a Natiopnal Park is entirely at the discretion of the Mutijulu people. I learnt about this as I have considerable dealings with the Park Media unit in my work up there.

A correction. My wife has pointed out that the young aboriginal man I referred to wasn't from Moss Vale, he was from up near Newcastle. There was another bloke at our table who was from Moss Vale.

Hi Gary, I have a slightly different view, as i mentioned above, i would like to see it run by the traditional owners and get some jobs out of the area for themselves. It really is an Australian Icon so i would hate to see it closed off from the public and overseas tourists but I would like to see the climb closed. I believe the costs associated with camping etc are over the top but with the locals running the show, these could be reduced to entice more people to the area. Let the Aboriginals run it and have some control over their ownership and earn self respect and satifaction from running the place. Regards Michael

Gazz, no one should be offended, you are just stating your opinion.
We went there for the first time last July and did not climb. The main reason was it looked too hard! The wind picked up and then they closed the climb. The climb also looked too dangerous and when it was open it amazed us how parents allowed very young children to climb up the rock.
We had heard about the talk and walk that leaves from the bottom of the climb so we were looking forward to that. Others had told us the aboriginal guide is really good. A non aboriginal female guide came and unfortunately we only went part way with the tour. It was not her fault, but we just got a bit sick of hearing about how cultural significant it all was and how white people have caused so much damage blah blah blah. After several weeks in the red centre it just starts to get a bit repetitive hearing more about things being cultural sensitive then the history of the place, including the history of the aboriginal people. And this guide also told us they are hoping in 3 years time the rock will be permanently closed.
We spent many hours in the Desert Park at Alice Springs and went to one of the talks and the guide was aboriginal and he was fantastic.
Don’t get me wrong, the red centre is brilliant and we will be back and you can get to go and see a lot of aboriginal sites.

Kevin

G'day Michael Kris and Kev

It would be absolutely fantastic if the local people could wholey solely run the place and create jobs for their brothers and sisters - I'm all for that ! I am also happy to see no one climb the rock ! I am also embarrassed to say that it is the white fella that is ruining it all for most of our cousins that ARE trying to do the right thing.

Unfortunately I was reluctantly involved in a "meeting" years ago
( I was in the wrong place at the wrong time ) that was all about the dollars and not about aboriginal culture - this is probably where my negativity started with "aboriginal culture"

As you say Michael it is a great icon and would be sad to see it shut down - but the high costs of camping aren't the problem - it's where the money goes that erks me !

Let's hope that there is a happy ending for all parties involved !


Cheers


Gazz

National parks could run a pretty dam good tourist venture if it wasn't for the dam tourists coming all the time.

As an ex park ranger said to me back in 83, "National parks are for skippy, they don't want people ruining there parks".

Can we charge for people to look at the Opera House or the Harbour Bridge???

I agree about the Aboriginal Guides.

All aborigines should be made rangers as a birth right.

I was in Mungo National Park a few years ago (08) and was delighted to see an Aboriginal ranger behind the counter at the visitor centre. The chap I was travelling with was also Aboriginal and he greeted the ranger with the usual "Gidday Brother"

And we all struck up a good conversation but the most significant thing was the story the ranger told about the footprints they had found out near the walls of china. It was of a one legged hunter using one of his spears for a walking stick and chasing a kangaroo.

The measured the spaces between footprints and spear prints and estimated this guy was running at some phenominal speed better than the 4 minute mile, on one leg, and he threw his spear and missed the kangaroo.

They know this because they got a tracker down from the Northern
Teritory to read the signs as the local guys could not read them clearly enough to interpret the signs. This was told to us by the Aboriginal Ranger.

The tracker was following the signs and started to laugh. They wanted to know what he was laughing at and he said "well this fellow was chasing a kangaroo and using one of his spears as a walking stick as he only had one leg". When he pointed it out they were amazed.

What he was laughing at was that the hunter had thrown his spear and missed the roo. They said how did you know that and he said " look here is the skid mark left by the spear as it hit the ground and bounced a couple of times".

Blow me down it was on the ABC 2 years later. So it must be true, as we all know aunty ABC doesn't tell fibs. LOL

The ranger also showed us a plaster cast they had made of one of the footprints and it was longer than the usual mans footprint and maybe a little narrower.

Yep they make good rangers, that's for sure.

Close the climb on Uluru I say, as well.

Cheers, Bruce.

And Mungo Man according to DNA is not related to any Aboriginal. He is an unknown. Perhaps it was his brother running around with one leg, as apparently they were of slimmer build.

SDG, that is a debate which has raged for 20 years or more now.
There is great debate over the validity of the DNA testing method used apparently.

I know that when I first heard about it, around thirty odd years ago that the local indiginous elders were quoted as saying "Our parents said not our people" but the locals now are saying "Yes they, are our people" Ulterior motive I think rather than good anthropology.

Interestingly, in one of Len Beadell's books he relates the story of an aboriginal bloke running along a ridge to intersect his landrover further along the track. This guy ran for some 300 metres to intersect with them and was not a bit out of breath when he stopped them. He just wanted a drink of water from Len.

That story and the one from Mungo have the same observation of supreme fitness. Wish I could run 50 metres without getting out of breath.

Cheers, Bruce.

The numbers are down more or less corresponding to the decline in tourism right across Australia. I don't think the climbing issue at Uluru has caused the tourism decline across Australia, do you?

I can't claim to be an expert on tourism trends in Oz. =)

If it's overseas tourists who are not coming, I'd guess the currency exchange rate is an issue. That will determine the length of my visit (prob in 2014). I can't afford to go for months if my $ is still buying less than one Oz $ plus I have to pay the high prices.

I'd be surprised to learn there's a decrease in domestic tourism...everything I hear makes it sound like the Oz economy is booming! Maybe I'm misinformed?

Two other factors are being blamed. Fuel prices are hitting all outback travel. Cheap overseas flights and the high Oz$ are sending Australian tourists overseas by the planelload. My business involves tourism and the whole industry here is hurting.

You don't get the political scare mongering from whoever is in opposition. Most people don't know if the economy is good or not unless they are told :-) Then they believe the side of politics they prefer.
I recall 8-10 years ago travelling overseas a few times and having to put up with a horror exchange rate. Aus dollar was US 50cents or worse. You don't have it that bad. :-)

mikehzz...As you can imagine, I'd love to see that exchange rate again, I could stay for months then. =) Assuming, of course, prices did not jump up for some reason!

You probably should prepare yourself for some price shocks Candace. We certainly got a dose of reality after coming back from a recent UK/Euro visit. Large populations and proximity to markets can be very advantageous, although the former also comes with some significant drawbacks which the majority? of Australians appear not to want.

Lots of reasons why 'the rock' might be losing some gloss. There are many far more interesting locations to visit (including the adjacent Kata Tjuta) in my opinion.

If numbers are down it would be because of the high Aussie Dollar. Americans and Canadians used to flock here over the last 30 years when our Dollar was between 50 and 70 cents of the US Dollar! Michael

Over the 40+ years that I have climbed the rock, Uluru was never originally a sacred site, unlike the Olgas, it had no water and it had no food. The true reason for wanting to close it is the risk. People fall off it, people have heart attacks climbing it, people suicide off the top. To find a body around the 6km surrounding the bottom of the rock usually requires a major amount of work. It is a particular expense/liability to allow people to climb the rock. After seeing Aboriginals climb the rock I realize that climbing it was of no significance to them.
The days you can climb the rock each year have steadily been reduced generating a declining number of people making the climb, the writing is on the wall about climbing it in the future. I believe it is purely financial/convenience reasons why they want to close the climb.

Not exactly so drowned rat. It was always a sacred site, but largely a women's sacred site. Kate Tjuta is a men's site. What has changed that is for about 100 years the local community was too dysfunctional and too ignored by the white community to have channels to express an opinion on the matter. But I agree that the actual climbing isn't a particularly important issue in itself. What upsets the locals is death on the rock and I really don't think the issue here is the subsequent cost. But it has become more than that. It is also a matter of dignity. It has become a symbol of how far the non indigenous community is prepared to respect indigenous people. When a culture has been destroyed to the extent that the aboriginal culture has been destroyed, that in itself is a significant issue. Accepting indigenous viewpoints creates confidence in the indigenous community that they are valued and actually does more to integrate the culture than isolating them by rejecting their values.

Pete!! I think they should be given a chance, there are many intelligent aboriginals just waiting to be given a chance. With the right people, it would work! Michael

Yeh mechpete. You don't see "white men's" businesses failing often do you? Unless you tune in to the commercial 'current affairs' shows or read the news, in which case you'll encounter tales of business failures and ripoffs by our kinsmen almost every day of the week. Take the one-eyed blinker off.

From memory the rock was given back to the traditional owners and then leased back for 99 years to the Federal Govt. I think it was Whitlam or Hawke, not sure.

Hey Bill, as a wise man once said

"I owe every thing I am or ever will be to the top 4 inches of the soil of this country"
That says 2 things to me.

1 That makes me indiginous
and
2 That makes this earth my mother.

That means you and me Bill and everybody else that was born in Australia no matter where their parents came from.
I am about 3rd gen. Aus.

Cheers, Bruce

""We are just too "politically correct""" so true so true...................I was there in 89 and I didnt climb it as I hate heights but I sure as shit wont be back there to pay the huge prices they want just to camp now. If I remember correctly it cost us $70 for a case of beer (during the day only) and at night we were only allowed a 6 pack (maximum limit) as people were getting jumped for their beer even in the camp ground. There were big burly security guards at the resort pub/bar/nightclub what ever it was called at the time. And agree in regards to the comment in regards to the tax we all pay for it !!!!!!!!!!!!....................

I ran a motel at the base of the rock in 1975 and knew many of the elders and their familys. I spent many hours walking with them in the bush.
There were and still are, sacred sites around the base of the rock but as far as tourists climbing it - the locals couldn't have cared less!

I have visited a few times since and on my last visit in Sep 2011 enquired to an aboriginal at the cultural centre, who of the original residents were left. She told me that Daisy was the only one and ALL the original inhabitants had either died or moved away. The current population have moved in from places like Laverton and Wiluna in WA and the head of Mutujulu community was from the Darwin region.

It appears to me that the thing of most cultural significance at the rock is the almighty $ and that the do gooders are driving a wedge between the people of Australia for their own self righteous beliefs.

As Ted Egan, the famous NT singer, entertainer and politician sang about the rock -

"Have you climbed to the top to enjoy the view?"

Mike

Spot on Mike.
The last time I went to Mititjulu the blackfellas didnt give a rats about the rock.......they were more concerned about the dog and petrol sniffer issues. One family wanted there rain water tank moved because it blocked their veiw of their neighbours house........where they wanted it put would have blocked out their veiw of the rock.'
The whole set up is a mess........the amount of people who say....when I went to Uluru an aboriginie told me...........but who was he? Does he speak for all the locals?
People who do know the stories, like Daisy, are more interested in saving her family and culture than a bloody rock!

Cheers

Allow the best parts of Australia to fall into private hands should be a criminal offence.

Its guaranteed to create division.

Just as long as I can keep the part I own? ;)

it would appear things may have changed significantly at Katherine Gorge since your visit there, we visited last year and the guides on the boats all seemed to be Aboriginal (atleast all the ones i saw were). our guide was a youngish fella aged in his 20's who was a fountain of knowledge on the trip up and down the gorge, i really enjoyed his running commentary and learnt a heap on the day.

If you do a Google search (use something like climb Uluru) you will see that the Federal Govt who is jointly responsible, along with the indigenous owners, for management of the park, flagged 2 or 3 years ago that the climb would be closed when climber numbers dropped to 20% of the total visitor numbers, and a couple of other preconditions were met. Peter Garrett was minister responsible then.

Seems like its to become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Have never climbed it and never likely to, but it seems a strange way to do future planning.

Cheers,

Val.

Self fulfilling would be correct Val.

I would suggest that probably some beaurocrat worked it out that in a specific time frame numbers would drop to that 20% level and so came up with a plan to use that to close it down when that future event occurred.

Never underestimate the deviousness of beaurocrats and pollies.

It is their very cunning way to do future plannig as you signal something will happen some time in the future when a certain trigger point is achieved.
People get used to it over a long period of time and when it occurrs there are no protests or complaints of any note.

Cheers, Bruce

Well that fits in to what I was told... "3 years" as per what I said in the original post.

The "deviousness"? Ah yes, just watch Yes Minister.

I was thinking the same thing when I wrote that comment on deviousness Allan.
"Yes Minister" is sooo close to the mark I reckon.

Cheers, Bruce.

Well, of course only 20% may be climbing it because a) they make it so bloody restrictive for anyone to be able to climb it, like when we were there we'd given up and planned another activity on the only day we weren't going to get blown off to Honolulu and b) probably 90% of visitors are grey nomads who wouldn't make the summit anyway. Sorry, i'm going grey too, but I do stray from my novel under the awning, occasionally. They are clearly going to stop the climb and there's probably flick all we can do about it. Just like politicians and policies that get pushed through. Democracy? Ha. My harce.

You may think me cynical but deep down it may have more to do with insurance liabilities than culturally sensitivities with cultural issues used as a smoke screen to quell too many negative arguments.

As you say Steve, make the requirements too difficult, keep shifting the goal posts, then the numbers drop off, then close it due to lack of patronage.
Game set and match.

As I said, cynical.

Cheers Bruce.

i don't want to offend here, but i don't need to be wrapped in cotton wool and guided everywhere i want to go in this country, people should be responsible for their own actions and decide if they want to climb or not. the last thing i'd want is some guide telling me what i can and can't do, there's enough safety nazi's already in this country without adding more people to the list. i've done the climb and yes it's a workout, put a sign at the bottom warning of what it's like (if one not currently there) and leave it at that.
in relation to closing the climb altogether, if that happens i'll not go back there ever again, i've been to the rock twice already and last time i was there the climb was closed, i'd only ever go back if there was a chance to do the climb again.

Well I do tend to agree, but my comment was as an alternative to total closure. I think the don't climb due to sacred issues are a bit of a con really. If you play that card then you don't have to explain yourself and you can guilt people out of climbing. Sure there are sacred areas around the rock but as stated elsewhere, the locals used to climb it themselves. Really, it's dangerous, lots of people are idiots and they don't want the responsibility of protecting them from themselves.
And the argument about would I climb all over a cathedral? Well yes, quite regularly. The climb up the spires of the Cathedral in Cologne was very enjoyable.