Snow Mode Switch

Ever discovered something new and pleasing about your car ?

18 months ago we made the minimum compromise descision like most
and brought a new 4800 petrol Patrol which has never proved
to be quite as good as our other 4800 Patrol - partly because
the new car only came in an auto.

The old manual is now being wrecked with parts going off to help
build a 750hp 1700 nm fire breathing monster and so the new car
is finally going out into the real bush more often.

But the new cars fly by wire throttle means its been to jerky up the really bad
rock strewn hills and this leads to wheelspin and cut tyres.
Even the installation of reduction gearing didn't help enough.

In trying to solve this problem I began to experiment with the cars never used snow mode switch. This switch instantly remaps the throttle response into being completely dead.

Sort of feels like the car is running on 2 cylinders.

Last weekend we did several runs up/down some good rocky tracks in the (Vic) Mt Terrible area using a 4.2TD manual 80 series cruiser as a reference.

Suffice to say that significantly less wheelspin was noted and much better placement and control of the vehicle occurred.

The final endorsement came when our manual cruiser friend said simply " With the snow mode switch the petrol Patrol simply did the climbing better" .
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Reply By: Member - Paul K - VIC - Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:49

Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:49
Hi Robin
I think you will find that the snow mode switch will make the auto start off in 2nd gear to reduce torque and wheel spin. The prado auto has a 2nd gear start button for use in snow and on slippery surfaces.

Regards Paul
AnswerID: 499301

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:07

Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:07
Hi Paul

I thought it just used 2nd gear also and maybe thats why I never considered it much - but it actually says in first gear and with the dead throttle response it makes for really good control even below crawl speeds.
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Reply By: Nomadic Navara - Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 15:41

Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 15:41
Looks like they have caught up with the Land Rovers. Fly by wire throttles are easily changed in their characteristics. In my 02 Disco II in high range the first 30% of throttle travel gave you around 80% power. When you selected low range the throttle response became near linear.

In rough slow going it was often you got better control if you went to low range without locking the centre diff.
PeterD
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AnswerID: 499312

Follow Up By: mike39 - Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 18:48

Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 18:48
Not quite correct Peter, they are ALL still trying to catch up to Land Rover innovation and technology... sigh!
mike39
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 19:24

Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 19:24
x2 to that. The terrain response is awesome. I was out with a LR convert from a Pajero last week who got hopelessly stuck in some really soft sand in his new D4. He had dug a hole in sand mode, I showed him mud and ruts was the go in that situation...the car altered the throttle response and raised the suspension a little more and he drove out easy as pie. Even if the technology is there you still have to know how to use it.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 20:23

Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 20:23
Yes its sort of a pity that LR never really got it together for the harder type stuff.

I remember a high stakes challenge we had with the D2 when its newish traction control got totally confused - remember those tracks they used to have at some dealers to show them off.

Then later as they moved to D3's and D4's etc the control systems got figured out and they really seemed to work - but then they reduced the wheel articulation substantially.

On well I guess every vehicle has its compromise areas.


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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 22:56

Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 22:56
I've been out on a lot of trips with LR clubs and I'm continually impressed with how easily D3's and D4's handle fairly extreme conditions and yet have car like handling, power, economy and luxury when back on the street. As with all cars you need the right driver behind the wheel to get the best out of it, especially when considering the cost of those vehicles. Wheel travel is less of an issue when I've seen them with a front and back wheel 2 feet off the ground without stopping progress in the slightest. I've also seen good cars disgraced by poor drivers. It takes a different skill set to get the most out of a technologically advanced car compared to a traditional beam axle truck with lockers, similarly one with an auto box not a manual. Comparisons can be difficult and usually boil down to personal preference.
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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 23:39

Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 23:39
Yes ...some people are obsessed with vehicle specifications to the point where their judgement on what is "good" or "bad" can become flawed.

Vehicle "shortcomings" in certain departments are irrelvant in many circumstances and as you (mikehzz) suggest ...just provide drivers who are aware of their particular vehicles capabilities with something to think about while doing the same old.

Cheers
Greg
I sent one final shout after him to stick to the track, to which he replied “All right,” That was the last ever seen of Gibson - E Giles 23 April 1874

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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 08:45

Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 08:45
Hi Mike
There are many variables , and as I'm currently re-learning having no care for damage probably takes one the furthest.

But no matter how you cut it at the end of the day having 4 wheels on the ground can't be argued against.
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Follow Up By: Bush Wanderer - Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:13

Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:13
Australia's Best Cars 2012 - Best All Terrain 4WD - D4

If there was a Hall of Fame for Australia’s Best Cars winners, then the Land Rover Discovery would surely be the first vehicle nominated. In 2012, the ‘Disco’ yet again clinched the title of best all-terrain 4WD, taking its tally to a remarkable eight wins in a row.

Not long after clinching the 2011 title, and just when the competition surely wondered once more what it had to do to break the ‘Disco’s’ winning streak, Land Rover added more grist to the mill by refreshing its MY12 Discovery 4 line-up’s already impressive standard equipment.

.....

By Australia’s Best Cars’ awards definition, ‘all-terrain’ means being able to cover just that and here Discovery 4 walks the talk, thanks to an accomplished Terrain Response system. You can choose from General Driving, Grass Gravel Snow, Mud Ruts, Sand, and Rock Crawl modes; settings that alter responses such as suspension travel, traction control and throttle mapping to allow the ‘Disco’ to go practically anywhere.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:46

Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:46
I just got one of those LR advertizing emails in my inbox also Bush Wanderer.
Strangely, it made no reference as per another exploroz post that they also got equal worst reliability along with Jeeps.

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Follow Up By: member - mazcan - Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:40

Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:40
hi guys
disco 4 sdv6 se has just been awarded best all terrain 4wd vehicle for the 8th consecative time so that speaks for its self in what they have developed and refined in technology over many years
no other vehicles comes close to their acheivements
cheers
wish i could afford one oh!! for the lotto life !!
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 13:43

Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 13:43
I own a Land Rover and have been out with a lot of other Land Rovers and the question of reliability never comes up with the newer models from around 2007 onward. If there are returns to the dealer they are usually minor things that you wouldn't bother about if the car didn't cost a motza. When you pay more you tend to expect perfection down to an absence of minor squeaks in obscure places. All these things count toward warranty claims and therefore reliability results. Mine has never let me down and that is not unusual at all for the newer models.
However, I can also say that when talking with owners of pre 2007 Land Rover models then the conversation is absolutely littered with references as to why their car was off the road the last time. I love the brand but wouldn't touch an earlier model one for this reason. I believe that is where the reputation was gained and is very hard to shake.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 14:26

Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 14:26
I'm pleased for you Mike - thats good to know.

We need to be smart enough to realize that things do change and hopefully intelligent comments on sites like this can give us a heads up in advance of the crowd.
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Follow Up By: Member - Rosco from way back - Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 19:57

Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 19:57
So I'm one of the unlucky ones. I was a Landy tragic for 25 years, having had 4 straight. After the 2nd head in my 2003 Fender, I sorta started to question my sanity. Love em, but couldn't keep up with the cost of keeping it on the road.
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Follow Up By: braggy - Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 07:40

Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 07:40
Mike hzz,

D3/D4 have more than rattles and squeaks go wrong with them, (take alook at the AULRO site) they have some major troubles
I have had them D3 for 3yrs and D4 just gone 3yrs

Example of my D4,in 3yrs and 65k
Front air bag/ shockys
wish bone bushes
control bushes
battery
drive shaft bush
steering rack
MAF sensor, twice
sump gasket
intercooler o rings
turbo solenoid
key fob
EAS compressor
split intercooler hose
oil pipe gasket leak
2 fuel gauge sensors
multi reduced performance signals (unknown fault)
system reboots/reflash and upgrades

To name a few, there are more but I try to forget
and service cost of around $500 ea
tranny service $1200

Allianz extended warranty D4 is in the top rate ( ever wonder why)

With out a doubt a great car, but running cost and repairs are ridiculous, from dealers who really struggle

Cheers and tears

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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 21:43

Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 21:43
Mate, I'm certainly not going to argue with a fellow owner with first hand experience. You can only go on what happens to you and those you come in contact with. I also own a Jeep that hasn't let me down in 3 years. Maybe that's why I haven't won lotto....all my luck has been diverted into the cars. :-) Cheers
PS I had the LR serviced today 144k. My local mechanic does mine, it was $245. I haven't had a dealer service since 36k, too dear for sure.
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Reply By: Bush Wanderer - Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 19:21

Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 19:21
Good one Mike39. Just now need to wait for the Japanese vehicle owners replies....they may get defensive. Will be interesting.
BW.
AnswerID: 499320

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 20:16

Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 at 20:16
Hi BW

You have to enter you reply to Mike39 where it says Followup for it to appear below his response.

I think though that the short wheel travel makes the later D4s etc not really suitable for the harder conditions , but they seem to be able to have a good level of fine control.

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Follow Up By: garrycol - Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 10:17

Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 10:17
You are joking - surely.

A standard D4 is far more able to handle the Hard Stuff than a standard Patrol, Pajero, Prado, 200 series.

Jack up a D4 and see just how much wheel travel there actually is - most would be surprised.

At its max a D4 has about 320mm ground clearance - what do the jappers have?

Lets have facts not fiction.

Garry
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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 15:35

Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 15:35
All about horses for courses! The D4 certianly has more ground clearance at max setting than the vehicles you listed above, however to achieve that the D4 loses virtually all wheel travel - the suspension firms up and then the articulation is gone. So while you may clear an obstacle, you will most likely lift a wheel doing so.

All vehicles have advantages and disadvantages and what suits one person doesn't necessarily suit another. One can sit here all day and mull over whats "better", but at the end of the day the sales figures show what most people prefer :)

Cheers

Captain

PS. Oh... and yes, people can be duped by slick marketing too. Just because one has more sales doesn't mean its better!!! Take a look at our politicians and who got the more sales (votes!).
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Follow Up By: Steve M1 (NSW) - Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 22:05

Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 22:05
Bit of a contradiction in your last para and p.s. there, captain
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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 22:16

Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 22:16
Yes and no!

Some people buy something because its the most "popular" yet isn't the most suitable for their needs. Other do research and buy because it suits them best - the fact its the most popular is just coincidence.

Problem is, one never knows if a person buys from research or because they are a sheep!

Cheers

Captain
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 07:43

Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 07:43
Hi Garry

As captain says - you get one or the other whereas in extremes you need both.

If you wish to see how quickly the Disco loses it try this.

Drive up a rocky shaly steep track.

The discos traction control works brillantly.

As hill gets worse and rocks get up to 300mm or more the Disco keeps going even though 1 or 2 wheels are getting lightly loaded and start lifting - your going very slowly now but your keeping up with the Patrol ahead even though its great RTI is keeping its wheels on the ground.

Just then you cross a little creek and the rocks get wet.

With 4 wheels on the ground the Patrol has almost twice as much rubber in contact with the road.

Its all over - try it , I have.

Alternately look back at ads from last century - Discos used to claim that wheels on the ground and great rollover angles made the best 4wds even better than lockers - no more do you see these ads.
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 11:30

Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 11:30
I also can create a scenario to suit my argument - in my scenario your Patrol does not get past the 300mm rocks because it does not have the ground clearance under the diffs.

Was away with a 2" lifted Patrol recently and it was constantly being stopped by large rocks and lack of clearance under the diffs.

At at full height the disco still has considerable wheel travel - yes they lift wheels but so do all vehicles including Patrols - at a similar offroad height that the Patrols have - what about 230mm - the Disco will have similar wheel travel but still has about another 90mm height available.

I am not sure what 15yo ads have to do with a D3 but anyway.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 13:40

Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 13:40
Maybe you checkout this site Garry


http://landroverhell.com
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Follow Up By: Bush Wanderer - Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 13:42

Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 13:42
Or maybe check this one out Robin:

http://www.ohwhatalemon.com/

BW.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 13:45

Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 13:45
Oh no - I like 200 series
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Saturday, Dec 01, 2012 at 10:45

Saturday, Dec 01, 2012 at 10:45
Bw I will neither be defensive nor will I attack by saying simply that our 2005 100 series 4.2TD auto has a very handy "2nd start" button. And as said before by others you can lock it in 2nd as well.

Previous 4WDs were 1970 era Army landrovers and all manner of off road tracked and non tracked vehicles. I was quickly awoken to the big difference and advances in ALL the modern 4WDs.

It sounds like the same as a "Snow" switch.

See!! Neither biased nor discriminatory. How's that for me for a change?

Phil
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Reply By: fisho64 - Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 02:41

Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 02:41
I just LOVE how you are constantly comparing it and measuring against Toyotas :-)
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 08:48

Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 at 08:48
They make some of the best products fisho.
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Reply By: Rockape - Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 09:22

Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 09:22
Oh my god! Not one word about the the best 4wd in the world.

The all conquering 1970 Lada Niva. Gotta love that car.

I see the fish are on the bite all around Australia.

AnswerID: 499416

Follow Up By: Steve M1 (NSW) - Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 18:42

Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 at 18:42
.....or that all-conquering Australian 4x4 that are so necessary in our "tough" outback...... erm.....what brand was that? Holden? Nah, hasn't been Ozzie for decades. We'll just adopt Toyota then, (lucky them) like we do with sportsmen or rock bands.
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Friday, Nov 30, 2012 at 18:45

Friday, Nov 30, 2012 at 18:45
I was told that Ladas in Russia came with canvas seats for the budget model. I'm not sure if they had the Fred Flintstone traction control though. :-)
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Friday, Nov 30, 2012 at 19:57

Friday, Nov 30, 2012 at 19:57
Mate,
some even came with engines.
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Friday, Nov 30, 2012 at 09:10

Friday, Nov 30, 2012 at 09:10
This thread seems to have gotten a little off track - but back to the snow mode switch I have now more info on how it works and it does look like a blessing in disguise.

Unlike some other cars it does only operate on the throttle response - albeit in a sophistcated way as it monitors rate of peddle depression not just position.
It does not change gears , or use 2nd so it really does allow the use of your lowest gearing and prevent sudden throttle changes hence giving a very controllable drive just as is needed on the bad bits.
AnswerID: 499502

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