How hot can you get a Hdj79 4.2 Turbo Diesel before its buggered.

Submitted: Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 17:35
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My wife did not notice the temp gauge and drove it about 10ks with it hot, it had a pinhole half way up the radiator so was still getting a little coolant,
When i got there about 20 min later i filled the radiator and run the engine in short idles 2 or 3 times till i could fill it up then ran it for about 5 min it seems ok.

It smelt very hot and had a little smoke coming off the engine when she first stopped.
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Reply By: Member Andys Adventures - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 18:57

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 18:57
Hi shopboss, I would change the oil. And did you fill it with coolant or just water?? if the latter then I would drain and fill with coolant.
Andy
AnswerID: 501404

Follow Up By: shopboss - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 19:17

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 19:17
Thanks i am going to put a new radiator and themostats,i did fill it with water but will fill with coolant as soon as we do this then take it for a run and see if it uses oil.
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Reply By: Ross M - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 19:17

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 19:17
Shopboss

Where on the gauge did the temp get to or had it dropped from lack of coolant level?

If it was just very hot then probably no damage done and if it is turned off and left to cool it won't get any hotter. If up to 110degrees C then OK.
However, if the engine was still very hot and you poured cold water into it, that might have caused a crack in the head or block.
If you have to pour water in a hot engine it must be done very slowly so there is little thermal shock to the engine as the added water heats up.
A gut full of cold water can create uneven thermal contractions you don't want to happen.
.
Best to fill with boiling water or direct from hot water of the house and it will be cooled by the radiator while some still weeps out of the fault. That way you minimize the thermal shock factor.

Your only choice now is to repair the leak and have it full of coolant and see if all continues to be ok.

Personally, I would have someone, (mechanic) check the cylinder head tension as the head gasket will have receeded slightly and if loose it will then blow a head gasket with continued use. If you do this ASAP it might save the gasket.

An engine once hot, is something you never want to cool down suddenly. Sudden heating up can also cause damage ie sudden hard work on cold engine.

Hope all is well for you.

Ross M
AnswerID: 501406

Follow Up By: shopboss - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 19:23

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 19:23
The temp gauge was as hard up as it could go on the high side, I added a little water then stared it for a few seconds then stopped it and repeated the process a few times as it was blowing it back out as quick as i was putting it in, I then filled the radiator when it was cooler and run the engine,

It took about 10 litres total.
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FollowupID: 777519

Follow Up By: Ross M - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 00:22

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 00:22
It must have been pretty hot to blow back like you said.
I would still get the head tension checked even if it does blow bubbles etc.
The sonic gasses which leak across a slightly leaking gasket continue to erode the gasket and it doesn't get better, only failure occurs.
If done you never really know if it worked but really good insurance, if not done then, when a leak appears (bubbles blowing water out) after ie three weeks, you say to yourself, I should have checked the tension.

Opinion of Automotive engineer.
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Reply By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 20:03

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 20:03
Engines can get very very hot before damage and only time will tell...... depending how much coolant was lost is whether you should replace the coolant, if you only lost a few litres; water should be fine.

BUT seeing you will have to do the radiator a coolant change may be a good idea..... oil will be fine.

Don't panic just yet, just keep an eye on things over the next 1000 Kilometres or so.

We use Engine Temperature Watch Dogs (TM2) on our vehicles and for $150 it's cheap insurance.
AnswerID: 501410

Follow Up By: shopboss - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 20:22

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 20:22
Thanks will wait and see.
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FollowupID: 777528

Follow Up By: Trev6 - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 08:20

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 08:20
another vote for the watch dog the alarm would nearly wake the dead, you couldn't not hear it.
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FollowupID: 777549

Follow Up By: Member - Ian H (NSW) - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 21:57

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 21:57
Another vote for the TM2 Watchdog.
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 23:54

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 23:54
a vote for Engine Guardian, similar price, a few more features and much more attractive and harmonious casing-not a square box that is hard to look "in place".
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FollowupID: 777645

Reply By: Aussi Traveller - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 20:39

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 20:39
I had a 1hz engine singing it was that hot, I had put a hole in the radiator at a water crossing, anyway when I pulled up at the roadhouse probable 20/25 minutes after the crossing as I said it was singing.
I hosed down the radiator and added water without turning the car off (very important to leave it running) eventually cooling it down, I left it running had a feed and a drink I left the cap loose as not to create pressure in the system and drove it 100ks home I did have to top it up a few times but we got home ok.
When they replaced the radiator they did a check on exhaust fumes in the system, there were none I put a 150000 ks more on the clock before I up graded.

Your car started which is a good thing so it wasn't cooked, but next time you add water to a very hot engine leave it running, as cold water in a hot engine without being pushed around via the cooling system can do a lot of damage.
AnswerID: 501412

Follow Up By: shopboss - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 20:58

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 20:58
Thanks I am hopeing its ok, I got her to turn it of as i was 20 min getting there and i did not know what water if any was in it, When i added water i had it running but i did it in a few goes as it was hard to get water in it was blowing it back out the top as quick as i was pouring in.
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FollowupID: 777530

Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 22:04

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 22:04
Most likely you'll be fine. Your motor has a cast iron head, so is more resiliant when it comes to overheating.
AnswerID: 501416

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 22:16

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 22:16
So does a 1HZ pre-combustion not direct like the 1HD-FTE, but they crack when overheated badly. I know from personal experience.

Cheers
Pop
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FollowupID: 777533

Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 23:30

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 23:30
Gday Pop,
Cracked precombustion chambers usually occur when you bolt a turbo onto a 1Hz. Best not to confuse the issue, as this thread is about overheating a 1HD-FTE.
What I was getting at and as I'm sure you know, cast iron heads don't expand as much as alloy when overheated, so are less likely to warp.

Cheers
phil
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FollowupID: 777537

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 00:53

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 00:53
Hi Phil,

Not trying to confuse anything, cast iron heads can and do crack.
I have personal experience with an early Toyota H 3.6lt diesel and a 1HZ diesel both cast iron and both cracked cylinder heads due to overheating.
The cracks were between the valve seats, nothing to do with the cracks that seem to happen in the pre-combustion chambers even without coolant loss. Yes turbo fitment will crack them a lot sooner.
Agreed cast will crack more often while alloy (aluminium) will warp more often.

Cheers
Pop
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FollowupID: 777540

Follow Up By: get outmore - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 13:31

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 13:31
absalutly they do, cracked heads in 1hz and 2h motors is relitivly common

at the end of the day he will either have cracked a head or he wont have
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FollowupID: 777590

Reply By: pop2jocem - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 22:12

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 22:12
If the engine is nice and cool now fill the radiator to the brim. Start the engine with the cap off. If a stream of bubbles comes out of the radiator and continues to do so after it has had a chance to expel any air in the system you have a blown gasket or cracks in the head and although unlikely maybe head or block warped. As the engine heats up and the water expands it will flow out of the radiator but shouldn't have air bubbles. 10lt of water is just about what an empty cooling system will hold. No point trying to re-torque the cylinder head as the final tension is done by angle torquing.

Good luck mate
Pop
AnswerID: 501419

Follow Up By: shopboss - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 07:51

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 07:51
My wife insisted on RACQ to take it in on a tilt tray so i will go around this morning and do what you said i thought that is what might be the first thing to look for thanks.
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 09:28

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 09:28
Pop
What has final torqueing by angle got to do with it now?

If the head is slightly less clamped because of the gasket recession then retorqueing is the only way to restore a gasket (if not stuffed already) to positive sealing if it is able to do so.

If it can't, it won't but well worth a try for in an attempt to avoid the cost of replacement etc.

Anyone without a sum of money at their disposal might think it is worth a try.
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FollowupID: 777561

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 10:44

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 10:44
Hi Ross,

If the engine has been overheated to the point that the water that was being added after the event was being pushed back out of the radiator as fast as the bloke could pour it in (as per OP), that tells me that one or both of the following is happening.
1. The engine was still that hot that the water was being vapourised and ejected from the radiator. This is not good because the addition of cold (or even warm) water to an engine that hot could crack or distort components even if they survived the initial overheating.
2. If the engine was running at idle but hot or cold and the water was being pushed out then there is a very good chance that air leaks from a cracked head or blown gasket into the water jacketing is responsible.
In neither of these scenarios can I see any point in re-torquing the head as this is not going to fix either problem.
To re-torque a cylinder head that requires the final step in the process to involve an angle requires the bolts be completely loosened and the whole procedure performed from step one.
Not much advantage and possibly a disadvantage if this bloke is lucky enough that a "bubbles in the water" test is negative.
Also keeping in mind that as per Mr Toyota's re-build specs the head bolts are considered a "one use" component after being torqued so at very least a new set of bolts for possibly no gain.
Ross, in no way am I going to get into a "my qualification is bigger than yours" contest. That would be of zero help to this poor bloke and
I accept that you are an Automotive Engineer but I think 45 years of re- building diesel engines of every type and size gives me some credence in this matter.

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 11:49

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 11:49
So as it stands, no comments previously posted are worth anything to this bloke.
He now knows to fit a watch dog = too late.
He knows how to refill his engine with water = too late.
He knows what to look for re. faults = too late.

But some things which might work aren't to be tried = no help.

He then should ignore all advice given and go with the mercy of the RAC? and hope they do the best for him.

I wish him luck.

PS. he isn't rebuilding his engine yet, but he might be able to continue using it. OP was how hot before buggered. By trying some things he will find out what is possible, by trying nothing all is lost.
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 10:26

Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 10:26
I tend to agree, i wouldnt screw with the headbolts as it would entail loosening them right off. As a marine engineer my judgement is that it could make it worse.
The 1HD-DTE is a extremely strong engine, arguably the best 4wd engine ever made. Chances are all will be good.
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FollowupID: 777682

Reply By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 22:14

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 22:14
.

If you don't want this to happen again, do as Olcoolone advised and fit an "Engine Watch Dog" or similar alarm to your engine.See here.


You really cannot be watching the dash temperature gauge constantly, especially when negotiating a bush track, and if a coolant loss occurs the temperature will rise faster than you will notice it.


An audible alarm will alert you well before damage can occur.
I wouldn't leave home without one.


Cheers
Allan

Member
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AnswerID: 501420

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 22:21

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 22:21
I have a coolant level warning system with the sensor in the top of the radiator that will let you know if coolant loss is occuring before the temperature rises. This is connected to a warning light and buzzer.

Cheers
Pop
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FollowupID: 777536

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 12:55

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 12:55
Coolant loose warning systems are a waste of money, a temp watch dog will do that and so much more.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 15:22

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 15:22
.
That's an interesting opinion Richard olcoolone. Perhaps you could enlighten those poor souls who have "wasted their money" on coolant "loose" (loss?) systems just how they will get no benefit from their investment?

Note that I'm not saying that temperature alarm systems are not worthwhile, I believe they are of value, just wondering why level alarms are a "waste of money".

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 16:13

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 16:13
Yeah, I too would like to know why a low coolant level alarm that tells you there is a leak long before any temperature rise sets off a temp alarm is a waste of money.
I believe both systems are extremely important in the same way that a low oil pressure alarm is. Mr Toyota in his wisdom even went to the trouble of fitting both oil pressure and level warning systems to his engines in Landcruisers as do many other makers.
Neither system replaces the other as they perform different functions.

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: GimmeeIsolation - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 18:48

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 18:48
"olcoolone posted:
Coolant loose warning systems are a waste of money, a temp watch dog will do that and so much more."
So the hundreds of pieces of Mobile Mining Equipment costing up to and over $5million for each Dozer/Truck/Scraper/Drill/Excavator etc etc across Australia I have worked on and fitted the alarms to and the many thousands that I have not worked on with level alarms , was all on Mechanical Engineers fantasy and they are all in cahoots ?
A temp probe will measure the steam/internal temp even when water has been lost.
I have seen Low level alarms that HAVE saved many engines that can cost more than any public available 4WD in the world. They are usually the first option fitted along with fire suppression in the mining environment before they turn a wheel/track in anger.
The low level will alert you before the temp warning fullstop in cases of coolant system leakage and also for those who do not regularly check coolant levels when it is lost through the cap/expansion tank/leakage and then started when cold again as it has dropped.
I don't know where you get your "knowledge", but it wasn't in Mining Maintenance.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 22:32

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 22:32
The basic cheap coolant loose alarm that goes into the radiator or the radiator top hoses will only offer a warning if you loose coolant..... a temp watch dog sensor picks up surface temp of a bolt that either goes into the cylinder head or block at the thermostat.

The advantage temp watch dog offers is if you loose coolant the engine temp will increase rapidly setting of the alarm..... conventional temp sensors only pick up coolant temp..... no coolant no reading.

The biggest advantage is if you start loosing coolant your engine temp increaser setting the temp watch dog alarm off and indicates the temp on the display.

Other things the temp watch dog will detect is blocked radiators ( internally and externally), faulty engine fans (mechanical and electrical) stuck thermostats, collapsed radiator hoses,, and poor natural air flow........ does the coolant alarm do that.

The other thing is with aftermarket coolant loose alarms you are introducing a leak point in non leaking system as the sensor has to be physically installed into the coolant.

We did a trip towing our camper a few years ago and we were climbing out of Adelaide travelling along the SE Freeway..... the ambient temp was around 17 Deg. C. All of a sudden the temp alarm went off..... looked down at it and it was showing 95 deg.C....... looked at the factory temp gauge and it was in the red....... traced the fault to a faulty viscous fan..... the Hilux was 4 years old with 95,000k on the clock...... we have done this climb many times with ambient temps up to 40 Deg.C with no over heating problems...... with out the temp alarm I would of had a $8000 repair bill.



GimmeeIsolation...... I also work on heavy transport, mining and earthmoving equipment and yes they do have watch dog systems.... the older ones were very basic and at the time there was not much option (remember the old Murphy gauges)...... these days more are using more advanced system that data log and can report back by satellite or in mine site via wireless technology.

However the older and basic Murphy works on high temp or over temp only and did not support coolant loose inputs.

The newer Murphys like the EMS PRO does by surface and liquid temp transducer inputs.

Times have changed!



Getting back to the coolant loose alarm vs temp watch dog alarm..... the temp watch dog alarm is about $30 more, does not require the probe to be submerged in the coolant, easier to install, easier to refit, limits the chance of a leak point, constant visual temp display, picks up on more faults quicker.

So why would you not use one?




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FollowupID: 777636

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 22:53

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 22:53
Looks like the same debate was happening in 2009......

http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Topic/65972/low_water_alarm.aspx
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 00:03

Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 00:03
Hes right, if you are only going to fit one, the Guardian or Watchdog will do pretty well everything.
A coolant loss alarm wont go off if the car boils other than coolant loss-if the cause as said is a failed fan etc-your alarm wont go off til it has boiled and boiled and lost coolant. The Guardian/Watchdog has a sensor that sits under a bolt, not in the coolant.
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FollowupID: 777647

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 00:34

Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 00:34
.
Well despite the long discourse, Olcoolone has not explained why coolant low level alarms are a "waste of money".
And by the way Richard, the word is 'loss' not 'loose'.

Certainly, the critical factor is engine over-temperature, so a positive monitor of that is essential. A common reason for over-temperature is loss of coolant and detection of that will produce an alert even before the engine temperature begins to rise.

So if you only wish to add one monitor it would be best to be for temperature. But if you want early extra protection, a coolant low level alarm is a good idea. And yes, I do have both.

So I cannot see that a low coolant alarm is a waste of money. It's an added investment in safety.

Cheers
Allan

Member
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FollowupID: 777652

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 10:34

Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 10:34
At the risk of repeating myself, the coolant loss alarm and an over temperature alarm monitor two separate conditions.
The over temp alarm is activated by the coolant temperature rising because of any number of component failures. Blocked radiator cores internal and external. Restriction of air flow from too many spotlights, winches, remains of an old 'roo carcass, fan belts slipping (which also affects the water pump often). Then there are the usual thermostat, water pump, collapsed hose, fan visco hub...but I'm sure you get the idea.
Then there is the coolant loss which can vary from minor leaks to catastrophic hose, radiator core or whatever failure. Quite often the loss of coolant will happen without an immediate indication of temp rise which is why it is important to monitor both.
Neither coolant loss or temp sensing is a waste of money unless you like to entertain yourself with the odd game of Russian Roulette.

Cheers
Pop
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FollowupID: 777683

Reply By: SDG - Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 23:42

Tuesday, Jan 01, 2013 at 23:42
I did a similar thing the other week in the Patrol, towing up Kosiosko Mtn. Blew a water pump it would seem. So far so good after a new pump, engine/radiator flush, pressure test, etc by a radiator mob.
AnswerID: 501424

Reply By: Rockape - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 12:34

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 12:34
Hey boss,

I can tell you how hot but only for a 1HZ and the Tojo V8.

When driving up a 1 in 6 decline and the motor becomes that hot it burns the wiring off the alternator and when the lights go out you keep driving with your caplamp + when it stops the oil is boiling. Then you engine is buggered.

When you have your V8 jump started 3 days in a row because later they find it is seizing from no water. Then your engine is buggered.

Mate! the fate of your engine is in the lap of the gods. No one can tell and time will be the answer.

Hope you got away with it and all is ok. Low water alarms a a great asset as many have said.

RA. (Retired Toyota destruction engineer)
AnswerID: 501447

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 16:37

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 16:37
Retired Toyota destruction engineer...lol ...I love it.
We had a geologist customer of ours that related a story about how one of his crew had a similar incident while out bush some 10 or 12 ks from camp.
This bloke was using the brush guard on the front of the Cruiser as a bulldozer blade to push his way through some low scrub and small trees.
Apparently the going got a bit tough so he decided to back out. Un fortunetly as he backed up a stick that was pointing forward got caught up in something and wound up getting up close and personal with the radiator. As he was looking out the rear window it was a while before the clouds of steam coming out of the bonnet caught his eye.
Anyway our hero decided against looking under the bonnet and instead made a dash for the camp. Now as you can imagine he was limited to low gears so he compensated for that by using heaps of revs.
The story goes that he got to within a couple of ks of the camp before the poor old 1HZ said "bugger this" and stopped dead. Not only was there bloody great tear in the radiator, the fan lost most of it's blades and the engine became a boat anchor.
Oh and all of this with the ambient above the 40 degree mark...lol

Cheers
Pop
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FollowupID: 777597

Follow Up By: Rockape - Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 20:29

Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 20:29
Pop,
had a similar thing happen to some Geo's. They charged a water crossing and put the fan through the radiator, which they knew they had done.

Well they did the same thing and drove it back to base. One destroyed engine.

I think they were trying to climb the ladder and take over as Head Toyota Destruction Engineer. Ha! I soon put a stop to that.

I phoned one of the diesel fitters while he was doing an oil change. Well! he had the oil pump running and by the time he got off phone the oil had overflowed and lubricated the whole workshop floor. No!!!!! instead of setting fire to the place and blaming something else he cleans up and drains the engine and then replaces the oil again. Starts her up and bends some rods. Forgot about the oil in the turbo piping didn't he.

He surpassed the geo's and I got the accolades for distracting him and causing the stuff up.

I was straight away reinstated as Head Toyota Destruction Engineer.

Have a good one

RA. (if it hasn't got sledge hammer marks on it then I have not signed off on the work)






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FollowupID: 777620

Reply By: Lazy Dave - Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 10:40

Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 10:40
I'd say it's buggered.... when a turbo diesel is run that hot for that distance bone dry and red hot then it is usually usually terminal for a marriage. However the engine will be fixable..... just might mean $$$
AnswerID: 501516

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