Starting in 2nd

Submitted: Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 17:52
ThreadID: 99970 Views:2977 Replies:9 FollowUps:24
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Sheesh, let me start by saying I have swearrched:
Start in second gear
start in second
start in 2nd
starting in second gear
starting in second
starting in 2nd
sheesh cranky old men...

So finally my question (if anyone bothered to read this far).

I drive a Landcruiser 76 series. My ex often drove off from stop in second (if downhill, flat or even slight uphill) but being a women I read the manual when I first got the car (yes I know you said we girls do) and it says always start (drive from a halt) in first gear.

What's the general consensus - could I do any damage if I used 2nd instead? A Sunday afternoon question that has been bugging me for months.
Cheers,
Vicki

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Reply By: member - mazcan - Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 18:12

Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 18:12
hi vicki
generally starting in second gear can be done providing you have ample power to weight ratio and a very good h/duty clutch
but if you are lacking either it can lead to clutch failure prematurely through being lazy so to speak
if when attemping the above and there is any signs of shudder or vibrations then those are the tell tale signs that it shouldn't be attemped
we all pay in the long run for short cuts in most cases and the inconviences
how you drive can effect every vehicles longivity
cheers barry
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Follow Up By: member - mazcan - Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 18:14

Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 18:14
oh and i------ swearched------- my brain for that imfo lol
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Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 18:44

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 18:44
Hi Mazcan,
Swearched is past tense for "swearing while I searched". LOL

I got Vicki's meaning right off.
I don't think it's a typo mate. LOL

Cheers, Bruce.
At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.

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Reply By: Rockape - Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 18:27

Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 18:27
Mazcan,
is right on the money. My old troopy with the 6.5l chev diesel I would always take off in 2nd gear without even touching the accelerator. If I had the van on the back I would force myself to take off in first so it would not put to much strain on the clutch or gearbox.

Look at it this way. An unloaded prime mover with a say 15 speed roadranger. Empty you may take off in 8th gear but loaded you maybe down to 3rd gear or lower depending on the ground or terrain.

Easy, easy wins the race with little strain on the gear.

Back to the cricket,
RA. (great catch by the tall lad in the crowd and McKay wasn't out)
AnswerID: 502458

Reply By: pop2jocem - Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 18:58

Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 18:58
So Vicki, what did you get when you searched in "sheesh cranky old men". Bet there was a heap of 'em...lol

If not towing, heavily loaded or starting off on a steep uphill gradient I quite often start my Cruiser going in 2nd. Can't be bothered driving 3 yards and changing gear.
It all depends on having a little empathy with the vehicle.

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: equinox - Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 21:34

Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 21:34
Hi Pop,

I do have empathy with my vehicle and although it is possible to do so, would not start it in second gear - You can feel the strain on the clutch, I've heard they are not cheap to replace. I'm OK with you doing in yours please don't get me wrong - each to their own.

In low range its a different story, happy to start in second then.

Vicki - On behalf of the reasonable people on this site, sorry you have had to resort to putting a search disclaimer on your post, a shame that you have had to do that.

Cheers
Alan

Looking for adventure.
In whatever comes our way.
"Outback Yonder"


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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 00:45

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 00:45
Anyone ever owned or driven one of the old 3 speed Cruisers or Patrols?
Their 1st gear was just about the same as 2nd in the later 4 and 5 speed versions. Slightly lower but not even close to the 1st in the later boxes and no synchro on 1st. Some even towed boats and caravans quite successfully without burning clutches.

Anyhow Vicki, you treat your Cruiser in whatever manner you feel comfortable with.

Cheers Pop
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 07:38

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 07:38
Pop,
Yep. The ratios in those old 3 speed cruiser boxes were spot on.

RA.

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Reply By: Lyn W3 - Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 21:48

Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 21:48
Just so as you know the effect your post has had.............

Do a Google search for:

Sheesh cranky old men
AnswerID: 502483

Reply By: madfisher - Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 22:01

Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 22:01
Your gut feeling is right Vicky, we have lots of issues with trucks at work from people taking off in to high a gear. One clutch fitted recently lasted 9 days. However if you can take off with out touching the accelarotor then it OK in my view.By the way I have only replaced one clutch in my vehicles in the last 30 years.
With cruisers just get them rolling then change.
Cheers Pete
AnswerID: 502486

Reply By: Mudripper - Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 22:13

Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 22:13
Hi Vicki,

I suppose the manufacturer put a 1st gear in there for a reason!

Cheers,

Tim.
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Follow Up By: Member - Jack - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 08:59

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 08:59
Well said, Tim. I was about to post the same response. It's not there for window dressing.
Jack
The hurrieder I go, the behinder I get. (Lewis Carroll-Alice In Wonderland)

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Reply By: Bazooka - Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 22:14

Sunday, Jan 13, 2013 at 22:14
Vicki as others have said - it depends on gearing, torque, load, position. Regularly started in 2nd on my old 4 speed swb diesel Patrol because it could, but I rarely do it in the 5 speed petrol Jackaroo. I do however skip 3rd occasionally, but please don't tell the gear gendarmes.
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Reply By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 11:02

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 11:02
Ask ya self this question.

Are you starting in second because first gear is too low for the job or are you doing it because you are lazy?

Most of the 3 speed boxes....and that was the norm in passenger vehicles at one time....... had exactly the same first gear ratio as the first gear in the 4 or 5 speed boxes they replaced...but vehicles then had smaller motors and lower final drive ratios.

This whole...first gear in this vehicle is like second in another.....is a popular over statement of the facts, and its mostly not the case.....look at the manuals and work out the ratios and it usually ends up some where inbetween.

Over the years I have driven with lots of people who have bad habits and being too lazy to start off in first gear it right up there with, holding the vehicle on a hill by slipping the clutch and leaving the left foot resting on the clutch and failing to down shift when appropraite, in producing premature wear on vehicle engines and transmissions.

The most wear and stress on the clutch is getting the vehicle rolling.

In heavy vehicles where the vehicle has a lot of power compared to its unladen weight and the gear shifts may be as close as 200 revs appart, and the unladen vehicle may be less than 1/3 of its gross combination mass, starting in other than first is a necessity.....in fact there will be trucks out there that may go weeks without first gear being selected.

Skip changing is also a necessity of driving heavy vehicles, but skip chagnging in passenger car gearboxes puts undue stress on the syncros.....one of the reasons secod gear syncro suffers more tha the others people skip changing un necessarily 4 to 2 .........
Passenger cars, our gears are mostly arround 1000 revs appart and we don't have transmissions that are over designed like they are in heavy vehicles.

Ask ya self, do I have to ride the clutch or apply extra revs to take off in second gear.....in that case you should not be starting there.

In most diesel 4wds, unladen, on the flat no trottle application should be needed to get rolling in 1st gear High range.

A quick shift to second after the vehicle is rolling never hurt anybody and over the life of the vehicle may save you a clutch replacement.....in a warst case you could reduce you clutch life from years to months.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 11:32

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 11:32
Hi Bantam,

Just a comment about "skip shifting" - and a link to an article about it here). Our son, who learned to drive here, has recently done a short work-related driver safety course in England. The instructor commented that the sequential shifting method of gear changing that we (ie his parents!) use has not been taught in England for 30 years. For all that he was deemed a very safe driver.

FWIW both of us continue to use the gears to slow the vehicle - and our Troopy has over 400kms on the clock and an original gearbox.

For VickiW - its not that hard to change up from 1st after starting, although very occasionally we do start in 2nd.

Cheers,

Val
J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:10

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:10
This is posted against my better judgement but what the hell.

Let's stick with the vehicle in question. Toyota Landcruiser.

1960 (and some earlier which had a 4 speed, no low range) to 1972.
1972 to 1983 4 speed but not relevant at the moment.

3 speed 1st 2.75 : 1 2nd 1.69:1 3rd 1:1

5 speed 1st 4.84 : 1 2nd 2.61:1 3rd 1.51:1 4th 1:1 5th .845:1
5 speed H150F as fitted to the 70 series, the H151F slightly different 1st and 2nd.

Anyone see some similarity between 1st in a 3 speed and 2nd in the 5 speed??

Anyhow that's my lot

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:20

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:20
There are lots of things that are no longer taught.

When I sat my first licence test back in the late seventies, if you steered hand over hand you would be failed.....and I was....shuffle steering was required to pass...Which I still practice because I believe it is better by far.......AND I keep my thumbs out.

When I sat my truck licence, I asked and looked up the testing guidlines.....In QLD you can steer however you like as long as you demonstrate proper controll of the wheel......even letting the wheel slip thru ya hands.......

In the 70's, hand over hand...fail,..... slip the wheel...fail,......hand inside wheel.....fail.......palming the wheel...fail.

10 and 2 a shuffle steer was all that would get you the licence.

There was and still is a certain view that you use the engine and gears to slow the vehicle........the view that "gears are for going and brakes are for stopping" is gaining popularity, particularly in heavy transport, because brake pads are cheap...there are even heavy transport companies that ban their drivers from using engine brakes, because in some systems it puts undue wear on the cam shaft and extra stress on the rings and valves( well that is the thinking) ..and brake pads are cheap.

Lots of the modern fuel efficient low emissions cars show bugger all retardation when you back off the throttle...so slowing with the engine and gears is getting taught less.

cheers
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:31

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:31
So pop you have quoted the ratios in the gearbox...that is less than half the story, what where the final drive ratio's.... and what where the transfer case reductions.


even at face value assuming the same final drive and remember the original subject.

look at the second gear ratio..its very close to third gear in the 5 speed....so we have a huge gap between first and second.

Again...still best to start in First, because startring in second is like starting in third in the 5 speed box, and you have a pissy little motor.

For the most part starting in second gear high range, is nothing but lazyness in passenger cars and pasenger related light commercials.

cheers

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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 14:00

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 14:00
Diff ratios 4.11:1. Been around for years, 3 or 5 speed except for the station wagon style which ran 3.9:1 from memory.

Transfer case High range 1:1 3 or 5 speed
Transfer case Low range from memory the 3 speed was a higher NUMERICAL ratio, something like about 3:1
Transfer case Low range 5 speed about 2:1

"starting in second is like starting in third in the 5 speed box" ???????
"a pissy little motor" ?? Heard the the 4.5 liter V8 single turbo called many things but so far not "pissy"..lol

The rest, sorry no idea where you are coming from, but anyway, safe travels.

My apologies Vicki

Pop

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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 15:27

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 15:27
It's off the track a bit but there is absolutley no reason why an experienced driver who knows his vehicle needs to use every gear sequentially when changing either up or down.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 16:12

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 16:12
pop mate look at the ratios...the second gear ratio on the 3 speed box is close to the third gear ratio in the 5 speed box.

so starting in the second gear in the 3 speed will be like starting in the 3rd gear in the 5 speed box.

Oh come on follow the thread....the 3 speed gearboxes where generally paired up with motors low in power compared to the modern vehicle...who out there is running al old 3 speed manual box behind and 4.5 liter turbo

as far as there being no reason why and experienced driver needs to use every ratio in turn....in theory no.

But most people who skip change in pasenger cars or light commercials are not matching revs, they are just pushing it in the slot and hopeing.....this buggers syncros real fast.
OR they will be reving the ring out of it to skip a gear going up.

There is very simply very rarely a good reason to skip change in a pasenger car or light commercial.

cheers

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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 16:26

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 16:26
Hi Bantam,

OK I give up.

I promise that in the future I will never personally start my 5 speed in 3rd nor will I ever advise anyone else to.
I further promise never to advise anyone to fit a 3 speed to their 4.5 lt turbo diesel and start that in 2nd gear.
I also promise never to advise anyone to "skip change" gears which I apparently did.

All the best mate

Pop
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 16:30

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 16:30
Oh...I left one out


I solemnly swear not to answer/follow up or whatever in this thread again.
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 17:33

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 17:33
"but most people who skip change in pasenger cars or light commercials are not matching revs, they are just pushing it in the slot and hopeing.....this buggers syncros real fast.
OR they will be reving the ring out of it to skip a gear going up."

I'd say 'codswallop' but in this case I'll simply say 'where's your evidence'? A classic case of assuming average Joe doesn't know how to drive when in my experience the reverse is actually true for most experienced drivers.

"There is very simply very rarely a good reason to skip change in a pasenger car or light commercial."

On the other hand I will say 'codswallop' to this statement. On the contrary, if for any reason you accelerate hard in 2nd for example, there may be no good reason to then go 3-4 instead of 4 directly - unless you are going up a hill for example. Along the flat or downhill it's generally a waste of effort, fuel and clutch. Similarly when changing down coming to a corner there is rarely any particularly good reason to go 5-4-3-2. In many cases it's completely unnecessary.
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Follow Up By: Member - VickiW - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 20:05

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 20:05
Hey Pop you missed one,
I promise to swearrch the forum before posting
:)

Thank you for the informative discussion, I certainly feel I know a lot more than yesterday about the pros & cons of starting in 2nd.

I think I will generally stick to first except maybe when going downhill occasionally and I am feeling lazy. I do notice that in first I can't cross 2 lanes without changing to second. Still the gearing is wonderful for driving in horrible slow Sydney traffic.

Thanks again,
Vicki
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 21:46

Monday, Jan 14, 2013 at 21:46
bazooka mate that is exactly why people wear out their syncros a head of time.
There is no reason that any gearbox should need the syncros changed for the life of the vehicle....but plenty do

Accelerating hard and skip changing IS a waste of fuel.

The asumption that the average joe does no know how to drive is a pretty safe one...and proven every single day.

The vast majority of syncro box drivers will have no idea of matching revs when changing gears and will have not the faintest idea of how the syncro rings speed or slow the selecting gear so it does not grind

In a pasenger car or light commercial, driving sequentially thru the gears IS the most efficient.....it is certainly the fastest when driven hard.

If you subscribe to the gears are for going and brakes are for stopping...there is no reason to down shift at all untill you are to power on....but you will spend a lot of time coasting, which is bad practice and you will often be caught in the wrong gear.

But if you subscribe to the view that you should be in the right gear for the road speed at all times, its a different strory.

Skip changing on down shift is hard on syncros...no question about it.

Most people who do, it is simple straight forward lazyness.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 00:54

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 00:54
"Skip changing on downshift is hard on syncros" - I've read a lot of tosh on this site and that statement is right up there with the best. Even less credible than your assumptions and generalisations about "most people..." Syncromesh problems caused by skip changing are rarer than Cronulla and Fremantle premierships.

I regularly skip change when the situation requires, I don't spend a lot of time coasting, I'm rarely caught in the wrong gear, and I'm not a lazy driver. All of which says that your generalisations, like your comments are based on nothing more than your own opinion on how you like to drive - or more accurately how you think your driving practices are better than everyone elses. Anyone constantly on the clutch dropping up and down gears for every speed level irrespective of the circumstances is guilty of gross 'overdriving'. And that, like a lot of your comments, is a gross exaggeration.
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 04:54

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 04:54
Pop, Your quote.
This is posted against my better judgement but what the hell.

Silly boy. Now I am being the silly boy

Old mate obviously never drives one of those low powered, low 1st gear V8 cruisers. He has one of those high 1st geared and very powerful 3l hiluxes. As for pissy little low powered motors, those old chev copy engines in the old cruisers had a stroke that long they developed torque at the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

Gotta find out what these syncros are as I have never had a problem with them. They must be hiding from me. How the hell we got from taking of in second gear to skipping gears, wearing out gearboxes because you use them for slowing the vehicle and shuffle steering I will never know.

Vicki, back to your original question. Sounds like you are an intelligent driver by asking the question.

If it feels right it is right and you will know when not to take off in second. That same old 1st gear is used whether you are empty or loaded so considering you add 3/4 of a tonne to the tray and then tow a 3 tonne trailer you still take off in that same 1st gear. Funny how it can do that, must be because that low 1st gear is there for that reason.

16 speed all SYNCRO Volvo box how did I ever manage to bounce all those gears and do no damage. I would love to see someone come up to a hill loaded and go back through every gear then on the other side go up every gear.

Bad lazy rockape.


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Reply By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 12:18

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 12:18
Sorry if I present, well proven basic, driving theory and basic mechanical concepts...sorry proven facts.

Yes rock ape you are being a silly boy.

There is a great didderence between driving heavy vehicle and pasenger cars or pasenger derived commercials.

Skip changing in heavy vehicle is a necessity, the vehicle design and its purpose make it so.

Passenger cars are designed to be driven thru the gears sequentially,they have gone to great effort to make it easy and efficient to do so...... there is almost no extra effort to driving them thru the gears sequentially, just like there is little or no extra effort required to start off in first gear......99.9% of the time it comes back to lazyness pure and simple.

If you don't or wont understand why these two practices are bad for the clutch or gearbox..sorry I cant hep you.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 13:14

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 13:14
Bantam,
on one hand you say you bugger the syncros in a box and on the other hand you say the syncros in a truck box are different. They are bigger but so is the load. You know it may come as a strange surprise but there are others out there that can drive. You seem to think that others will just jam it in a slot from 5th to second at any speed they are at at the time. Ha.

In my whole life I have never buggered a box but I have worn a few out. 23 years underground having 5 gears available (Fitters used to look after me) I never buggered a box and boy I did a lot of skipping gears. If you haven't driven underground you wouldn't understand that. Low range I may start in 2nd or third depending on the terrain. The new V8's always third. Come down to a sharp corner and I may go from 5th to 2nd or 4th to second with no fuss at all, Going up I may go from 3rd to 5th. No broken gearboxes or destroyed clutches.

Maybe if I was driving an old hilux I might even start off in low range down a hill, but when you have a vehicle empty that goes 5 feet and you have to change to second you are mad to start in first.

Don't quote that trucks are different they are exactly the same only bigger.

Tell how I don't destroy clutches and gearboxes I would be interested if you can look into your crystal ball and show me the error of my ways.

RA.


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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 15:37

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 15:37
Mate if you recon that trucks are are exactly the same as cars only bigger........this displays a breathtaking level of ignorance and explains a great many things.

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Follow Up By: Rockape - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 16:16

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 16:16
Are now the insults start coming, that is the norm for someone who can't get their own way.

You don't know much about me and one thing is I do know is trucks well having driven round this country for many years. In fact I would have been punting them round when you were in nappies pup. See insults are easy.

I also have an excellent rep for not damaging gear.

Sorry Vicki this will be my last post on this subject as you are probably fed up with it.

Goodbye
RA. Breathtaking Ape.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 17:18

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 17:18
Mate you have no idea how old I am so you would not have the faintest idea when I was in nappies.

If you deny, inspite of having driven them both, that the design and construction of trucks is very different to cars and passenger derived commercials......sorry but I can't come to any other conclusion.

There are quantum differences in almost every matter of design and construction.
It concerns me greatly that a professional driver of long standing does not understand that.

I could easily argue the differences one by one, producing references.......but there would be no point, you simply don't want to know.

sorry I call em how I see em.

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