Free or near free camping

More and more councils are banning local camping and forcing us Grey Nomads to stay at caravan parks with excessive rates and poor facilities.
I am on a pension and I cannot afford $40 a night.
Even some of the showgrounds are upping their charges
Are there any rules in regard to Camping/Caravanning on private property(farm)with the owners permission, of course.
I do a bit of rural housesitting from time to time, where i park my caravan on site, and apparantly this IS legal.
I am thinking of paying the farm owner around $10-$15 a night with power and water available.
Any experience or comments in regard to this idea
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Reply By: Dr Hook - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 15:49

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 15:49
Hi Beaul
Farmers can let anyone stay any time on their land (even lease-hold land) and you are free to contribute a "consideration" for power & water etc.

If you call it "paying the farmer (a hire rate)" , it might smack of a commercial undertaking on his behalf, compromising his own Public Liability insurance as well as inviting Council to stick their bibs in.

But if you give him such a "consideration" (ie: a gift) then:
- the Council
- the tax-man; and
- the Insurer
don't need to know and have no business asking.

Dr Hook
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Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 16:04

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 16:04
Well put Dr Hook.

Whatever arrangement the farmer and the caravanner make between themselves, provided it is not of a comercial nature, is off the radar.

It is also advisable to keep any such arrangements to yourselves in case some greedy van park owner gets wind of it and puts in a formal complaint, whether or not it is justified.

Cheers, Bruce.
At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.

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Follow Up By: beaul - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 16:10

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 16:10
Thank you Dr Hook,
I appreciate your comments, I am a ex farmer myself and I feel sorry for the farmers out there doing it tough. I will keep working on this. With something like this, with a very small investment in facilities (if any) they can make a few bucks (consideration) and the Greg Nomads have somewhere reasonable and for a small consideration can stay.
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Follow Up By: beaul - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 16:42

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 16:42
I am not yet sure yet how to best handle "the consideration" aspect. I remember Reg Ansett many years ago had a taxi service but for whatever reason was not allowed to take passengers to Melbourne airport. So he put a box of oranges in his cab, If a passenger wanted to go to the airport the trip was free but you had to buy an orange which cost $10.00 each.
Another experience I had was in Japan at pinchincho palour I won the jackpot but was given a mouldy packet of cigarettes, However once outside the shop and employee took me down a side ally and swaped the cigarettes for 300,000 yen
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Follow Up By: Member - John G - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 17:21

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 17:21
G'day Bruce C

I fully understand Beaul's position and motivation, but it's hard to see how any farmer is going to be able to take any of us on with any level of frequency keep it off the bush telegraph. Ad hoc and informal arrangements are great until something goes wrong and goodwill is put under the pump.

I'd suggest National Parks, but I guess Beaul, that you are looking for places that are on the road to somewhere, and where you don't have to deviate too far, or have to be self-sufficient. I think your house-sitting ventures might be the way to go - perhaps you could still house-sit while the farmer is way in the far paddock.

Cheers
John
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Follow Up By: beaul - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 18:00

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 18:00
National Parks have too many restrictions, no fires, no generators,no pets and NO facilities generally and they want to charge us for staying on our land, it is not their land. They want US to do it their way and then charge us for it. Pay for services, what services? ( we are being ripped, again)

If the farmer charges $15.00 for a pumpkin and allows you to stay for free that is exacatly what Country Hotels and Vineyards are already doing, right now, buy some wine and you can stay down the back for free, and Legal.
It does not have to be off the bush telegragh if it is legal and the precedent has already been set.
Thank you for your comments,I welcome any opinions,please
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Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 18:06

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 18:06
Hi John G,

I was not thinking of anything but very small scale, say 2 or 3 vans who would virtually become personal friends of the farmer. Hence no commercial venture.

If they paid a small consideration for power well that would be between the farmer and the visitor, so to speak. If they assisted the farmer in his daily duties then that would be entertainment of sorts. I know it is fraught with all sorts of insurance issues etc, etc, etc, etc..

Just watch the doomsayers come thick and fast now.

This is the sort of arrangement Beaul was suggesting, I thought.
I do not see that it is illegal in any way shape or form.

The comment re caravan park operators was prompted by a friend of mine who was managing a caravan park north of Rockhampton which virtually filled every evening and emptied out every morning.
They would probably have averaged 80% occupancy rates I guess, across all aspects of the business as it contained a motel as well, as many do.

The Pub owner just down the road allowed travellers to park up in his carpark overnight for free and he would allow them a shower for $5, if I recall correctly.
I guess some would have had a pub meal for tea and perhaps a couple of drinks as well in appreciation.

The owners of the caravan park, a commercial company, complained to the local council about the pub and the pub owner had to stop.
The main complainer, the company, held the view that if they picked up another couple of stays per night then that would be a reasonable sum at the end of the week, probably so, but it smacks of greed.

Not enough that they were doing OK but had to throttle the competition as well.
This appears to be the main motivation of most of the complaints to councils re their showgrounds. This is most un Australian.

Hence the comment that if you get some nice little arrangement going which suits you nicely, keep it to yourself other wise some nark out there will try and spoil it.

Cheers, Bruce.
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Follow Up By: Member - John G - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:37

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:37
G'day Bruce C

There are so many factors to consider aren't there? I agree with your last sentence, but caravanners being caravanners, and happy hours being happy hours, the pressure to keep it to yourself would be quite intense.

Cheers
John
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Follow Up By: Aussi Traveller - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 16:33

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 16:33
National Parks have too many restrictions, no fires, no generators,no pets and NO facilities generaly and they want to charge us for staying on our land, it is not their land. They want US to do it their way and then charge us for it. Pay for services, what services? ( we are being ripped, again)


Well Beaul isn't it funny that you feel ripped off by National Parks, I have yet to see a National Park any where in Australia, and I have been to most of them charge more than $10 per person per night for camping.
Only a few will not allow gen sets most have basic facilities and some have great facilities only some don't allow fires, and It goes without saying domestic pets do not belong in a National Park.

National Parks are Crown land or recognozed Aboriginal land, they do not belong to us per say, they are paid for by the Government and looked after by the Government, so it is only fair that they raise monies from them, this in turn keeps them available to all.

So pay your $15 to a farmer if you feel that you are being ripped off, personally I would do your research first get your facts right and stop thinking the rest of us owe you a living and free camping.

Tourism in Australia is hurting at the moment and it is not looking good any time soon, so why not support the occasional C/P park or small town that you drive through and take for granted, you never know one day you may need help and that small town that used to close to were you are is closed down because no ever stop and help prop it up, now you have to get help from afar which now cost a s!@t load more.

Just so forumites know s!@t loads is now classed a standard unit of measurement.

Phil

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Reply By: Member - John G - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 17:45

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 17:45
G'day Beaul

I'm assuming that you need power and water for your set-up, whenever you stop, otherwise if you can fit National Parks into your itinerary, then that is an option.

I've never looked seriously at farm-sitting farm opportunities, but if there is a data base with a list of farms that are looking for sitters (I'm sure there is such a list and I could chase up a contact if you wish), then why not contact them and see if you could farm-sit even while the farmer and family are at home.

I appreciate what you are saying about expensive caravan parks, but my experience, on balance, is that for $40 pn you will get adequate facilities. That doesn't mean everyone can afford that. I'd also observe that many caravan parks are small businesses doing it tough, and not high profit enterprises. Possibly the same councils to which you refer are burying them in rules and regulations that also impact on their own costs and charges.

Cheers
John

Cheers
John
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Follow Up By: beaul - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 18:14

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 18:14
Thank you John, for your Opinions.
There are farm sitting web sites that charge your $100 to register and guarantee NOTHING.
I am sure you are right about the caravan parks but why do some councils BAN free camping. ?
The problem that I see is that Caravan parks or National Parks do not offer what Grey nomads want. Their rules are forced on us.
We want to have camp fires, we want to bring our pets with us and we don't want to be 1 meter away from our neighbour.
I have power and water, I want to be independant, but the system won't allow me.
I am 64 years old and what upsets me is that it never used to be like this in Australia.
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Follow Up By: Member - John G - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:32

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:32
Crikey Beaul

You raise a lot of issues in your search for paradise.

I understand the pensioner bit, but how much is $100 as a percentage of the total cost of your vehicle and van, and annual travelling expenses including registration and insurance etc etc? Two thirds of five eigths of not much would be my guess. Maybe there are sites that don't charge, I don't know, but what sort of guarantee are you looking for? It's hard to imagine a farming family putting their farm on a site, if there was no prospect of them accepting guests/sitters, and there is a cost to developing and administering a database.

My guess is that councils ban free camping because too many people abuse the privilege, because of cost, because they seek to protect local businesses and rate payers, and because it just makes life simple. Some reasons will be legitmate, others not.

As for National Parks - OK, it's our land if you like, but like a lot of things, we pay taxes and we leave it to the State and Federal governments to provide the services. National Parks are pretty much toward the end of the line when budget expenditure is allocated; that's the reality.

There are lots of things that aren't like they used to be, but overall there are far more positives to having the freedom to travel the wide brown land than there are negatives.

Cheers
John
John
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Reply By: kev.h - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 19:04

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 19:04
I know where you are coming from I asked a local councillor why they had this attitude to free camps Her reply stunned me "we don't need that type of free loader they just want everything for nothing" I took this up with the CEO and the Mayor and we still have free camps at this stage
One of the clubs Caravan or Motor Home can't recall tried to start a register of people who would let other members stay on their property but not sure if it got off the ground
When we travel we free camp if we can, any town that does ban free camping we try to avoid If I stop for any reason fuel etc.. I tell as many businesses as I can why I won't be staying and spending more money after all they are the ones missing out maybe they will pressure the Council
I usually check with the visitors center for free camps its sometime amazing what they come up with when you say "o' sorry then we won't be staying if we cant free camp or at least pay a moderate fee"
I can understand why its getting harder when you see what some of the grubs leave in free camps if we all did the right thing we may not have the issue at all
Well that's my whinge for the day I feel better now
Cheers Kev
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Follow Up By: beaul - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 19:19

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 19:19
Thanks Kev,
There are a few ferals out there but in my experience it is more the weekenders not the grey nomads. From what I see the council employees just do not want to do anything, that might entail responsibility, so the council lease the job out to others to do the dirty work , like mow the lawns and collect the money, and charge us heaps. Why is a powered site at Canungra showgrounds $25. and an unpowered site $16.00 ( ripped off ?)
No, the problem as I see it is the local councils see us all as ferals
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Follow Up By: daz (SA) - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 20:03

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 20:03
hi Beaul
I find it very interesting on this site, that there is a lot of blame given to weekenders & a few ferals who stuff up free camp spots,
On the 23rd july 2012 I called in to Mary Pool a free campground between Halls Creek & Fitzroy Crossing. It was full of caravanners & travellers, possibly 50 or more, the majority being grey nomads. Some travellers??? looked as tho they had been there for weeks. The place was a disgrace & I moved on. The bins were full, so the rubbish was piled up outside the bins, so the crows & galahs were spreading it everywhere. It beats me why people do this. until we come to our senses, & respect our environment, instead of the attitude that it is some one elses problem, then more & more of these overnight rest / free camps will l be shut down. I have seen it all over Australia. Blow a tyre, change it, & leave the old tyre on the side of the road for some one else to remove. Saw 4 piled up between walkers Crossing & the Birdville track. Lets face a lot of us could not care less.

Daz
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Follow Up By: beaul - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 20:15

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 20:15
So, why had the council not emptied the bins, I found the same thing at Sharps park Canungra, we pay, but the council does not do their job. and we get the blame?
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Follow Up By: rocco2010 - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 20:33

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 20:33
Gidday

Mary pool is 100k from halls creek and 180 from fitzroy crossing. I guess that is why the council doesn't get out there to empty the bins ...

I think it is simplistic to blame lazy councils and greedy caravan parks for the problems with finding a spot to camp. For every grey nomad and traveller who does the right thing there are heaps who don't. When you see the toilet paper festooning the bush along the cannng stock route it really brings home just how little regard for the environment some people have.

Many of the rural councils simply don't have the money to employ people to clean up after campers in remote locations so the only thing they can do is try and control it.

I am still working so I cant travel much but I read lots of blogs and there are plenty of reports of places across the north that are just like the description of Mary Pool.

I really fear that by the time I retire a lot of the places I have read about an wished to visit will ether be closed or trashed. Bit sad really.

Cheers


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Follow Up By: racinrob - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 21:48

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 21:48
I realize National Park camping prices vary but the NP camping area close to where I live charges:
Adults $14 p/n
Children $7 p/n
Park entry fee $11 p/n
So you can see a couple with two rug rats is up for $53 a night for a fairly basic camp site, no power or on site water.
I have brought this up with the park management and their claim is that the fees collected are to maintain all parks in NSW.

Rob.
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Follow Up By: mylestom - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 05:32

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 05:32
Rocco2010,
Found the same with Mary Pools last year when travelling up that way. Obviously it is the council responsibility to empty the bins, but who pays for it, not the free campers.
We stopped in for camping, there were others set up with Water Donkeys, trailer loads of firewood etc. Now they were only staying overnight weren't they??

We moved on, didn't like the mess, did we blame the council or the locals, No.

The fault was with the Free Campers, they carted the rubbish in and if they had stayed the allotted time and took their garbage with them, it would not have been a problem.

Take some responsibility, why would you put rubbish in a bin that was already overflowing.
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Follow Up By: KevinE - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 11:49

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 11:49
We too found the same scenario at Mary's Pool in 2011 :( We only called in for a lunch stop, not to camp, but the joint was already full of nomads at that time of day (must have just arrived lol!) & yes, it was a mess!
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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 14:10

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 14:10
Adults $14 p/n
Children $7 p/n
Park entry fee $11 p/n

Yes, one of our favourite coastal NP campgrounds is next door to a caravan park. It used to be quite large and cheap, no designated sites, no bookings, 20c showers.

The CP kicked up a fuss. Now the NP has halved the area devoted to camping (the other half is for day visitors and is not used - everyone goes there to camp), the fees are Adults $14, kids $7 showers $1.00 and daily park entrance $7.00

So for 2 adults and 3 kids with a shower a day each, $61.00. Not a cheap family alternative.
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 22:07

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 22:07
I fail to understand the mentality of people putting rubbish in bins in remote areas. 'We' know it's unlikely to be collected regularly and our 'contribution' will only help to fill it more quickly (leading to overflow and animal and brid scavanging etc) but we can't have rubbish in the car or van for a few days can we now? Probably better for councils and NPs not to provide bins at all in many cases.

With regard to NSW NPs: some camping fees are high ($42 a night for a couple and 2 kids in Royal NP is ridiculous imo) but entry fees are very reasonable - seniors get large discounts, pensioners who register get FREE access, and if you are a regular visitor there is a range of pass options (for example $1.30 a week for entry to most parks except Kozzy). Anyone whinging about entry fees simply needs to give up one coffee a week.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:38

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:38
The mentality is very simple......if there is a bin provided, it logicaly follows that someone empties it.....and regularly.....if that was not the case why would it be there.

If the bin is not properly serviced is should not be there.

As far as entry fees to national parks ( BTW most states don't have em)......frankly that is simply offencive.....we all pay taxes so that national parks can be managed for the nation.....why should we have to pay just to go there...the user is already paying even if that user only gets a warn fuzzy feeling just from knowing t is there.

Camping fees are another thing altogether......but $42 is bordering on excessive taxation and without sufferage.
When you can get an unpowered site in a modest, run for profit caravan park or campsite for half the price.

The fee does not reflect the cost of providing the service. OR are the authoroties wishing to actively discourage other than singles and couples.


cheers
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 13:26

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 13:26
There's nothing at all logical that remote bins will be emptied regularly Bantam, but that's obviously the prevailing mentality of some (witless) people, even when the evidence shows clearly the opposite to be true. Biut I agree most of those bins ought to be removed and people required to carry their rubbish out.

The "we all pay our taxes argument" is nonsense, unless you want taxes tripled or more. Their are additional costs for just about every govt service, for good reasons (including the disincentive of over-servicing). If you want to know how NP funds are allocated and used there's plenty of information on the internet. I would have thought it obvious that caravan parks are far cheaper, simpler and easy to run than huge tracts of bushland.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 13:57

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 13:57
We keep comming back to, not providing a bin unless you are going to adequately service it.

As for taxes being trippled or more...what a crock..all the governements are spending millions on things that simply don't need to be done or produce little or no result, meanwile national parks languish, maintenance not done, weeds and vermin not controlled.

Why should we pay tenns of thousands of dollars to install "sculptures" in obscure parts of the bush and under resource basic maintenence in national parks
Why shgould we pay hundreds of thousands for a metal elephant standing on its head, while our own native animals in our own national parks languish under predation from uncontrolled vermin

ALL of that by the way should be paid for out of our taxes, national parks kept in the national interest.

None of that is at all related to camp site fees...tell me how $40+ dollars represents the costs of allowing a family of 4 to park on an unserviced site, and maybe use the composting toilet and maybe a shower.

I have no problem by the way with token or coin op showers like many private camp sites use.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 17:35

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 17:35
"their" - sorry "there", don't know what I was thinking.....

I'm not sure what planet you've been living on Bantam but even with zero so-called "wastage" of taxpayers' dollars (not sure why but I'm always reminded of the saying "one man's trash is another's treasure" whenever I see govt wastage mentioned) no government could afford to fund every area of societal need and make services free or at little cost to citizens - without at least a trebling of their take. And that of course is not going to happen, for many reasons.

You can argue until you're blue in the face about government priorities (giving millions of taxpayers dollars to a private "Game Council" would be a good starting point) but if you're arguing that MOST camping and entry fees in NPs are too high you're off in la la land I'm afraid. If fees are a big issue for you you can write to your local MP, the Minister, and/or send feedback to the NP service. Whinging on EO is very unlikely to achieve any positive change I'd suggest.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 23:30

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 23:30
Remember there are no....NATIONAL park entry fees in QLD...so why am I off in lal la land to expect its reasonable else where.

cheers
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Reply By: Motherhen - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 22:33

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 22:33
Many Councils and communities, particularly in rural areas who have or are doing it tough welcome visitors and often offer low cost camping. We will go out of our way to support these places. I encourage everyone to do likewise.

There are still lot of opportunities for free and low cost - Camps Australia Wide has many, and we usually find somewhere quiet to stop without resorting to the book.

Staying on a farm if as a worker has longer time frames than guests sleeping in a caravan. Farm sitting is another good option, and farmers often go on summer holidays after harvest (WA time frames) and having someone there to feed the dogs, chooks, water garden, check stock watering points, feeding stock all need to be done. Depending on what is on the farm this may be minimal. Fruit picking is another high labour needs time in orcharding areas.

Officially money or in kind payments cannot take place. Once this occurs there are the taxation implications (including remitting GST), breaching Shire regulations of running a business on a premises when not authorised and meeting caravan parking requirements, liability insurance etc.

Motherhen
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 23:13

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 23:13
Motherhen sums it up nicely.

What also needs to be appreciated is that councils do not have shareholders (other than their ratepayers). They do not make a "profit". All collected rates and fees are used to provide services to the users. Because their costs are constantly rising due to the demands of society for better services and higher wages, so the charges for these services increases.
Similarly, operators of caravan parks have increasing overheads as demands for better and safer premises and facilities increase. Also their maintenance costs are increasing as the cost of contractors (electricians, plumbers etc) escalating.
All of this is because we live in a national society which is "enjoying" a steady rise in living standards. Would you really want to live elsewhere? Maybe not everybody wants this but in a society you enjoy and pay the same as everyone else.
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Reply By: Member - Peter M (QLD) - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 07:46

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 07:46
When we stay at a free camp or a less expensive Council owned caravan park we write a letter to the Mayor (at the end of our stay) thanking the Council and telling them how much we spent in their Council area and how long we stayed.
We are presently staying at the Berrigan Lions Club Caravan Park @ $20 per night pay for 6 nights stay for 7 nights.
This park like a lot of others has recently put their price up from $15 per night. I wonder if there was any collusion with so many parks & show grounds putting their prices up around the same time?
I have noticed that caravan park operators would rather complain about business they are losing than work on ways of attracting more overnighters/customers. The hospitality industry addressed the problem of empty beds, years ago: They offered stand by rates, free breakfasts, off peak rates during the week etc.., etc..
Some caravan park operators would rather have empty sites than offer deals/discounts. I think they go to a special training school to learn how to whinge and be sour.
Have a safe and happy Australia Day
PeterM
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Reply By: Ozhumvee - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 08:29

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 08:29
There are lots of little towns doing it tough, many without either a caravan park or showground. Many provide 24 or 36 hr overnight parking in attempt to get travellers to spend in the town which usually works well.
Some towns on the other hand, usually the ones with a van park or "resort" have a blanket ban on overnight stopping even though there are suitable sites available in town as the van park has got the ear of the council and pulled a few strings to get overnight stopping banned. Like others we just motor on through without spending anything.
The other thing that makes me laugh is the van parks that have converted most of their sites to cabins and onsite vans are taking custom from the motels and hotels, so much for fair play!!!
As has been said NP's are a ripoff, top dollar and zero facilities or just a dirty pit loo.
State forests are our usual favourite as they don't mind overnight stops, you can park or camp in most free of charge and those that do charge it is usually in line with the facilities offered.
Like others we avoid van parks 99% of the time as they want to charge for facilities we do not need like power, playgrounds, pools, campers kitchens, rec rooms and the like. We might at the most stay in one once every once in a while, usually in larger centres and cities where there is no easy alternative.
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Reply By: mikehzz - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 08:34

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 08:34
I don't quite get the sense in a lot of this. Are we expecting free or near free camping areas that are fully serviced by someone? Good luck with that. For a sense of perspective, everyone should put themselves in the position of cleaning a public area including toilet for a few months. It is an awesome experience that is hard to put into words. The simple reason why you can't stop "anywhere" is that too many people (including the greys) are complete pigs. When I say too many I can assure you that it doesn't take many to make an impression in that area. Saying it is the fault of the council being lazy is just ridiculous. It's like standing under a waterfall of crap.
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Follow Up By: WBS - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 09:39

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 09:39
I agree with mikehzz's comments.

Now, I'm not a free camper (by choice). I don't see why there should be any free camping considerations on the outskirts of towns or in towns. I believe cheap council run parks should be encouraged and used. I've stayed in a few and while they were basic, they did provide all I needed, a toilet, a shower and water and a bit of security owing to the fact there were a number of fellow travellers about. If you look, there are a lot of these parks about. The Camps Australia books lists them in their publication.

I think the high end caravan parks with high end prices don't cater for many travellers who don't need jumping pillows, swimming pools, amenities areas, camp kitchens, wifi internet and all the other mod cons that many provide. Mind you if people want to frequent these caravan parks why not.

I'm not against "Free camping" away from towns. I too would stay at a lovely billabong or some other equally attractive area for a bit just for the pleasure of it, but to me, free camping in a town or just out of town is just plain free loading. It is unfortunate that the camping lifestyle many now engage in is now is labelled as "Free Camping". it has connotations to free loading to me and perhaps other people.

The trench is dug, the helmet is in place and I'm bunkered down for the remainder of this thread.

WBS
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 10:14

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 10:14
I agree with Mikehzz and WBS on this and will join you in "the trench".
Certainly there are those who want and are prepared to pay for 'high end' caravan parks with full facilities but there surely is a market for basic managed parks in or near country towns catering for short stays.
Quite a few towns are providing their Show Grounds for camping which is a great idea as the necessary infrastructure is already in place and used only briefly several times per year. I have found these facilities to be always adequate and clean. I hope that other Shire Councils will come to adopt this approach and be realistic with their fees. If opposed by an existing full-service caravan park they need to point out that there are diverse market needs and that such businesses cannot expect Council to support a monopoly. There can be a problem however with a council-owned but privately leased park.
The benefit to the town is increased spending within the town and less clean-up issues of the free camping sites outside of town. I will no longer step foot in these established free-camping sites due to hygiene concerns.Free camping in the bush is another matter altogether.
Cheers
Allan

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FollowupID: 780063

Follow Up By: KevinE - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 11:56

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 11:56
^^ I like all of the above comments! ^^

We too choose not to free camp where possible. But, we have to use the toilets in roadside stops occasionally or lunch at the picnic tables put there for travellers. Sometimes it's not a nice experience!
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FollowupID: 780077

Reply By: beaul - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 10:02

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 10:02
I am on a pension and I cannot afford to stay in Caravan parks. I have been travelling around for quite some time and I have never yet seen a mess left behind by free campers. You guys are exaggerating.
Councils in rural areas encourage free camping because it brings money into the community. Why is it always the coastal councils who make life difficult for us caravanners and ban free camping
AnswerID: 503420

Follow Up By: WBS - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 10:24

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 10:24
Beaul,
If a council encourages free camping then there's no argument from me. Its when people set up camp wherever they like without any consideration of local expectations, in or on the outskirts of towns that I don't agree with.

I don't think mikehzz was exaggerating. I have seen mounds of rubbish piled high next to the roadside rubbish bins in many places on my travels. Next time I'll take geocoded photos and submit them for comment. The council trucks might only do a rubbish pickup once a week and covering a long stretch of road. They are obviously not capable of catering for the volume of travelers. That doesn't give the traveler the right to dump their rubbish next to a bin. It should be in the bin or taken with them for correct disposal down the road, not dump it for someone else to clean up.
WBS
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FollowupID: 780067

Follow Up By: Member - Scott M (NSW) - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 11:41

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 11:41
I think WBS has hit the nail on the head. A lot of these road-side stops were originally designed as rest areas for passing travellers who would stop for lunch or afternoon tea and would leave a minimum of rubbish. Maybe a milk carton, a couple of cans, and a left over packet or something. The garbage collection service was commissioned accordingly.

They weren't designed for a large volume of heavy campers staying for an extended period of time, with the subsequent amount of waste, both hard and liquid.

Most councils nowadays have garbage dump points on the outskirts of the towns for travellers to leave rubbish. How hard is it for people to take their rubbish with them and dispose of it accordingly???????
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FollowupID: 780072

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:10

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:10
Beaul, I too am retired and on a limited income. There are things that I also would like but cannot afford, but I don't whinge about them not being available to me. Just get on with it and make the best of what you can do.
As for you having "never yet seen a mess left behind by free campers". You would have to be either joking or have poor vision and sense of smell. They are a mess even though the rule of camping is to take your rubbish out with you.
Cheers
Allan

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FollowupID: 780079

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 15:18

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 15:18
Beaul,

Sorry mate but I have to agree with what the previous followups have said. Not just on a just few occasions have we stopped at a rest area with some shade, a table and benches to have a cuppa or munch a sandwich or pie and witnessed piles of rubbish, some near overflowing bins, some just left near the picnic tables. Not real nice trying to have lunch while some pigs used toilet paper is blowing around your ankles.
We usually now sit in the van and leave when finished and take all our rubbish with us. Not that hard to find a council tip that will take a reasonable size rubbish bag.

Safe travels
Pop
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FollowupID: 780099

Reply By: Wilko (Parkes NSW) - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 10:52

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 10:52
Hi Beaul,

I think collectively people should boycott the areas that dont allow free camping,or another way to look at it visit the areas that do allow free camping that way the good councils get the benefit and the money hungry tell you how to live brigade councils dont reap the benefits and can go bleep themselves.

Cheers Wilko
AnswerID: 503422

Reply By: member - mazcan - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 13:06

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 13:06
hi beaul and all
free camping on demand no doubt has become a very big problem with more and more people expecting it in all towns
but although it might be classed as free to the travellers that want/need it
in the long run someone has to pay for it whether it be direct or on a round-a-bout way either by local councils absorbing the costs in rating /govtment bodies or what-ever
nothing is for nothing but it seems grey nomads/international and many other categories expect it
as long as they can keep travelling with-out digging in their own pockets for overnight stays and free water and waste disposal they will be happy
there is enough evidence right around aus of people leaving their rubbish at road side truckbay bins in volume and most other freebush camp sights
and yet they all claim to never to have left any rubbish and always cleaned up before leaving camp sites
if this was the case we would have zero/zilch problems and no rubbish at all sites
no one is guilty of this
so does it just fall from the sky at night maybe its space junk raining down while we have our eyes closed????????????
i see on the roadmag group have just published a free camp sites book for 2013-14
some of it will be relevant but i fail to see how some one sitting behind a computor can acruately forcast by gazing into their cystal ball which sites are still going to be free in 2014 and even this year
when these so called free sites are slowly and surely deminishing in number due to the way travellers are abusing their privileges
im not suggesting to stay at home but if you leave home to travell this great land
please expect to put your hand in your own pockets in order to do so
cheers
AnswerID: 503428

Reply By: 0ldfosil - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 13:36

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 13:36
I've been "on the road" off and on for the last 12 years and stayed in many free or cheap camp sites a lot of which aren't in any book you can buy. For this reason alone I'm not going to name them here as I enjoy the tranquility of them. One of the best I've stayed in charges $10.00 a week per campsite, has flushing toilets and hot showers, drinking water on tap and the rubbish bins are emptied regularly. All this on a river within walking distance of the town's main street, - you do have to bring your own firewood. I've also stopped at places that just want a donation to the RFDS or similar for your stay. It just depends on what standard you consider to be acceptable to you - I don't need the Hilton to be comfortable. I've also been appalled at the rubbish and "little white flags" left everywhere in the bush, to the people who leave this stuff behind I say "Go Home, we don't want you" Australia's not totally stuffed yet, but greed, power & buck passing are a formidable force. - The wheel keeps turning, we must remain vigilant, resist the "not my problem" syndrome.
AnswerID: 503429

Reply By: beaul - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 14:17

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 14:17
I am not sure how but this thread has gone so far off track.
I asked why can't caravaners stay at private farms and pay a small fee. Why should the authorities want to stop it, what harm is it doing to them. Local Councils are supposed to represent their local community, not play favourites with the local caravan park who can then charge excessive rates for facilities that most caravaners do not want or need.
I am disappointed with the number of replies who quote rubbish and ferals as justification for banning free camping. It is simply not true in the majority of cases.
What I also understand is some of you think that we all should just pay and shut up. As per the national parks program, what a disgrace that is. Who owns those Parks? They should be managed in a way that they are accessible to all Australians, we should not be dictated to by a government employees who only appear to look after themselves. It is time the public and 350,000 caravaners had a say in how our Country is managed.
AnswerID: 503431

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 14:21

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 14:21
"It is time the public and 350,000 caravaners had a say in how our Country is managed."

We do...........every three years.
Cheers
Allan

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FollowupID: 780097

Follow Up By: Member - John G - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 14:50

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 14:50
G'day again Beaul

As I read the replies and follow-ups, most tried to address your questions, all have given you some of their time and have shared their experience, and some agree and some disagree with the your expectations and opinions. It's a discussion that has interested those of us who have replied, and mostly it's kept to the subject that you raised.

To follow on from Allan and his reference to voting - join a caravan group, community group, or a political party and try to get things moving in the direction that you want. Unless exploroz progresses to a lobby group, we ain't going to change much through here.

Cheers
John
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FollowupID: 780098

Reply By: The Bantam - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 15:00

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 15:00
Perhaps like so many "criminal activities" the traveling community and those happy to accomadate them need to have some some " secret words", like "Pumpkin"

We're just passing thru, wondering if anybody has some "Fresh Pumpkins" nearby ( "fresh pumpkins" means accomadation with shower & toilet).

Farmer Jim sells "Pumpkins"......follow the road out of town and you'll se a sign "Fresh Pumpkins"

The railway hotel sells "Fresh Pumpkin Soup"....( this means they have showers, toilets and provide meals"

Then there is the matter of consideration, the pumpkin or the soup might cost $10....but its real good soup!

Or...farmer Jones likes pumpkins, but he has been very busy with the harvest and cant get to town.....they tell me he's run out of Jack Daniels, I have a a large bottle under the counter for him, but he cant get in for a week, would you like to take it out to him.

This means you can stay for a week for a large bottle of Jack but there are no facilities.

worth a thaught

the various places could be rated like the start ratings by the number of Pumpkins.

cheers
AnswerID: 503435

Follow Up By: WBS - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 19:58

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 19:58
I like your thinking. This could be the start of an underground industry!
WBS
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FollowupID: 780134

Reply By: The Bantam - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 16:34

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 16:34
There is a fundamental management issue regarding Bins.

A rubbish bin is utterly pointless unless it is emptied sufficiently regularly......if it is overflowing, it is obviously not serviced often enough.

Yes there is an issue arround people dumping large amounts of rubbish in and arround small bins.....

this is a fundamental public hygeen issue

People want to dispose of their rubbish in a bin.
People find a bin full or empty and put their rubbish there.

Realy that have discharged their obligation..at least in their minds.

Serioulsy where else are they going to put it.

Now think about this.

Are they going to take a long drive out of town to a dump...where in this day and age they are most likely to be charged a fee.......where is this dump.....some small towns no longer have a dump....the greenies tell us that land fill is a terible thing.....many small towns burn diesel to haul their rubbish 100s of Km to a "waste transer station" in another town

Are they going to put it in the bin at the next caravan park they stop at...so then the CVP operator pays to dispose of rubbish that realy is not his responsibility.

All these areas where travelers go, have some sort of tourist economy.

People can winge and while about "free loaders" and such like...... all the rubbish had to be baught and paid for somewhere, so tax has been paid on that rubbish already, both in GST and in business fees, licences and rates paid by those businesses who profited from the sale.

The price to dispose of the rubbish has been paid somewhere and unless we burn it.... in the camp fires we are less and less able to have...... it has to go into some bin somewhere.

SO the councils have to get back to the single fundamental BIN issue...if you do not intend to adequately service a bin...don't provide one.

All up and down the country we see overflowing bins......and this is not a recent thing....ya pass the same bins and locations over and over and they are always overflowing.

there is one single failure here, the provision of a bin either of inadequate size or that it is not serviced nearly enough.

One way or another the fee to dispose of the rubbish has already been paid...the councils and other bodies neet to step up to one of their findamental obligations and collect the rubbish from the bins they are respnsible for.

Either that or do not provide he bins.

cheers
AnswerID: 503436

Follow Up By: Hairy (NT) - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 12:32

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 12:32
So what would you class as "adequately service a bin"......hourly?.......daily?....... weekly?.....monthly?

There is only on person or persons to blame for rubbish at roadside stops and that is the people who put it there! Not the councils.
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FollowupID: 780208

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 14:07

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 14:07
If there is a bin there and it is consistently overflowing...it is obvioulsy not adequately serviced.

Um its not rocket science.....um...bin full....needs emptying.

School janitors, festival and show ground maintenence staff seem to be able to manage this simple task

We tell people to put rubbish in a bin.....provide one then fail to service it.....the blame lies with those who fail to service a provided bin.

While there is an inadequately serviced bin, it will continue to overflow.

Unless you want to spend millions on a public education campaign admitting that the bins are not adequately serviced.....not likley.

the one effective solution is to adequatety service the bin or do not provide it.

An overflowing bin would not last long if it was on a city street or in a popular city park land where everybody could see it

cheers
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FollowupID: 780216

Follow Up By: Hairy (NT) - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 14:33

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 14:33
"Um its not rocket science.....um...bin full....needs emptying"
Intelligent reply there Bantam.........

Lets just say a Council worker drives 40km out of town and empties a bin.....5mins latter some inconsiderate camper who has just moved from the FREE camping area down the road calls in and drops their weeks load of rubbish in the bin and fills it.
Do you really think thats the Councils fault because ""Um its not rocket science.....um...bin full....needs emptying"
How can you compare a bin on a city street to a bin at a roadside stop possible miles from a town and blame the Council for some brainless fools actions of leaving there rubbish on the ground because the bin is full?
Its quite simple.....bins are provided in some places for your convenience. Not your God given right. If the bin has been filled ........don't use it.....take your rubbish with you, just like you would do if there wasn't one provided.....that's not rocket science!
No you think all roadside stops and free camping should be closed if Councils cant adequately service them to your standard?
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FollowupID: 780219

Follow Up By: Aussi Traveller - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 16:47

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 16:47
Hairy you are so right.

I am to understand that some place won't put rubbish bins in a remote area, simple reason being is rubbish bins create rubbish.

This is not the fault of the NP or shire etc, it is the fault of the NUF NUFs that will put more rubbish on or around a full bin because it is there.

Be it in the city or the bush people will put more rubbish on a full bin rather than take it a bit further to an empty one, next time you are having lunch in a mall or similar watch what people do with their rubbish you will be surprised.
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FollowupID: 780240

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 18:01

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 18:01
Come on now..what camper is going to have enough rubbish to fill a 44 from a single hit.

AND we are not takling about bins that overflow every now and then.....there are plenty that are full or overflowing every time you pass them.

If the bin is consistently overflowing, the bin is either not serviced regularly enough or it is too small.

The futher a bin is from anywhere the more important it is to provide an adequate service.

Would you rather these "Nuf Nufs" just dumped their crap by the road side.
Because if they cant find a bin, that is exactly what they will do.

We hear all this talk about rubbish in the bush, when the ludite evolves one important step to putting their rubbish in a bin that is provided or at least tries to, you blame them because the people who put the bin there cant get off their ever spreading to properly service it

What if this bin is full, and the next one, and the next one, what do ya think they are going to do..they cant take it home, they either don't have one or wont be there for another 6 weeks.

NO they will just dump it next to the next overflowing bin they see.

Rubbish disposal is one of the fundamental core services we pay taxes, rates and other fees for......its possibly THE single biggest and a fundamental public health and environment issue.



Anywhere people gather or travel there are two unavoidable public health and environment issues that must be mannaged and as a priority over all others, rubbish, mostly food packiging, increasingly mostly plastic and toilet waste.

Don't ell me it cant be done....it can and before economic rationalisim and outsourcing..... it was done and much better than it is now.

We as travelers don't need million dollar multimedia visitor centres, giant sculptures depicting the aboriginal legend of the area, expensive architect designed rubbish bins and fancy theemed toilet blocks with mosaic murals and cast animal foot prints in the floor.

we need safe well maintained rest areas adequate rubbish disposal and clean toilets that work.

cheers
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FollowupID: 780248

Follow Up By: Hairy (NT) - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 19:15

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 19:15
Bwahahahahaha!!!!!

Sorry I gave up reading half way through that dribble.......so do you still stand by your comment ....."the blame lies with those who fail to service a provided bin."?????
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FollowupID: 780255

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 23:36

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 23:36
Exactly the sort of response I expect from an uneducated yokle that cant articulate a proper argument or grasp basic concepts of social responsibility
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FollowupID: 780268

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 17:14

Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 17:14
So Bantam you need safe well maintained rest areas ,rubbish disposal and clean toilets that work ,,, fair enough !! Thing is freeloading freecampers don't want ot PAY for these services ,, tell us why someone else should PAY for your rubbish removal and toillet paper ??
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FollowupID: 780300

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 18:34

Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 18:34
Its not MY rubbish removal......its providing a service that supports the tourist economy and deals with the waste it generates.

Road side toilet paper, BTW is a seperate issue and nothing to do with adequaltely servicing provided facilities.

Remember all that rubbish had to be baught and paid for some where.

There where taxes and fees paid by the business that profited from the sale of that rubbish and taxes paid on the purchase and maintenence of the vehicles people drive the mobile homes they tow, the tents they errect and very very heavy taxes paid on every litre of fuel that those vehicle burn.

Never in the history of this country has there been as much tax revenue.

Many of the business in small towns would be broke and long gone, if it was not for the toursit economy.......it is the single largest economic contributor in this country apart from the mines.

AND don't try to tell me "all this rubbish" comes from free campers.

We have one of the highest road mobile populations in the world, we have one of the highest per capita 4wd ownerships in the world.

All these people traveling need to dispose of rubbish and deficate.

The primary consideration is that the rubbish exists and that adequate measures need to be in place to manage it...where it came from is a minor issue when there are overflowing bins.

The economy and the government has already profited at many levels from the sale of this rubbish........all too often ther is more value and volume and tax paid in the packaging ( that IS the rubbish) than there is in the contents

Adequate service of the bins provided is not too much to ask.

cheers
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FollowupID: 780309

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 19:04

Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 19:04
Think on this.....if I am traveling on the highway at 100Km an hour traveling alone and not towing a trailer I am paying tax at the rate of about $10 an hour, on a trip brisbane to townsville I pay arround $160 tax on fuel alone.

That alone should entitle me to put a little rubbish in a road side bin bin without paying for it.

If I buy food at a roadside business, there is about $1 tax paid directly on the average meal, (Its fast food, soft drings or sweets so is GST taxable) there is probably another $1 or more in indirect taxes and charges paid and still the vendor will make arround $5 out of the $10 paid

That can of coke that you pay arround $3 for at an overpriced service station.....the major input cost is in the container, about 40c in direct and indirect taxes and about $2 clear profit to various people in the chain.

look at these highway service stations and road side fast food outlets......which BTW gare the source of a large portion of the waste......they are very profitable and because of the clasification most of what they sell is GST taxable.

Every single highway service station will yeild many thousands of dollars TAX every day

We pay more than enough taxes to expect the most fundamental of government services...simple sanitation.

cheers
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FollowupID: 780311

Follow Up By: Hairy (NT) - Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 20:31

Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 20:31
Bantam,
Stop with the personal insults as you have never met me and know nothing about my education. Ive asked a simple question.......if you dont want to answer it dont but dont get personal.

do you still stand by your comment ....."the blame lies with those who fail to service a provided bin."?????
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FollowupID: 780322

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013 at 18:53

Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013 at 18:53
As usual the insults started with you.....calling what I post "dribble" is a direct and personal insult, further you obviously care so little about the discussion you cant be bothered reading a whole post.

If you had read the whole post and understood it you would not be asking the question.

Yes I do stand by the fact that the blame lies with those who provide a bin and fail to properly service it.

Because there in lies the only reasonable solution to the problem that exists.

People will continue to pile rubish on and arround an overflowing bin, regardless of what anybody says.

It would take a major decade long public education program to change that and still.....quite resonably people will complain that....."we have been taught to put ribbish in a bin, we have done our part and made the effort to put our rubbish in a bin" and the vast majority believe that they pay enough taxes to expect the simplest and fundamental of government services...waste disposal...to be adequate.


Before someone, short on the basic skill of engish comprehension fires up and critisises me for dumping rubbish in and arround already full bins or implies that I condone such behaviour......I do not.

Its just a simple fact of human bahaviour......just be thankfull those that do pile rubbih on and arround already full bins do not simply throw it out their window or drop it with no regard like so many others do.

cheers
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FollowupID: 780390

Follow Up By: Hairy (NT) - Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013 at 19:56

Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013 at 19:56
And again you believe because its your opinion it is fact and the opinion of the vast majority?????
Its that sort of attitude that gets the roadside stops and camping areas closed.
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FollowupID: 780408

Reply By: beaul - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 17:16

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 17:16
It would seem the problem IS with the local councils.
At Sharps park at Canungra (which used to be free) over the Christmas -New Year period they doubled the fees. There were up to 300 people staying there with 2 toilets for men, one on each side of the creek, no showers and the bins were overflowing.
If any private enterprise company were to do that, they would be fined heavily, why can the Local Councils continue to get away with that.
Greedy yes, because they have and can enforce a monolopy. And if we don't object, it will only get worse .
Don't give me the feral thing, it is not true, this park was managed and for all you do gooders who want everyone to stay at overpriced (protected), caravan parks this system is corrupt and needs to be addressed, otherwise we are just another third world country.
AnswerID: 503439

Follow Up By: disco driver - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 20:04

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 20:04
If they are so overpriced, they must be profitable.
Rather than complaining, perhaps you could set up exactly what you want and then see how profitable your caravan park actually is.
The average price for setting up each bay was quoted in an earlier post on freecamping at $35-40000 per bay, this includes site works, power, plumbing and drainage plus a share of the cost of park infrastructure and of course public liability insurance.
Privately owned parks also have to pay shire rates, shire owned parks are subsidised by ratepayers but bot will need regular maintenance.

I'm sorry but nothing is free when you are travelling, someone has to pay for it and user pays is fairer than the traveller being subsidised by the ratepayers.

Just my opinion, you are free to disagree as long as you can justify your position.

Disco.
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FollowupID: 780135

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 10:47

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 10:47
The poster above is not talking about a fully serviced caravan park, with power water, drainage, gass or electric camp kitchens, jumping pillows and hot and cold running ping pong tables.

He is talking about a more or less undeveloped padock with a couple of rubbish bins and a couple of small toilet blocks......facilities that have probably remained unimproved for over a decade or more.

Meantime, the little town of Cunungra and the whole Tamborine has become a trendy weekend destination with up market coffee shops, galeries and the like and very much a toursist economy.

Every business in town profits from the endless stream of vehicles and people that go thru the town every day....it is after all the gateway to the tamborine area and the Laminton plateau.

Providing properly serviced rubbish bins and upgrading a couple of toilet blocks is not too much to ask.

cheers
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FollowupID: 780150

Follow Up By: Member - John G - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 09:48

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 09:48
G'day Beaul

"for all you do gooders . . ." - c'mon Beaul, be nice, it's the Australia Day weekend!
And besides, none of your respondents has taken the position of saying that we should all stay at over-priced caravan parks.

How about you get back to us in six months and let us know how you have decided to address the corruption that you see, and how you are getting on with it?

Cheers
John
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FollowupID: 780195

Reply By: BrigalowO - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 08:52

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 08:52
Let's face it - we will never alter the mindset of the "grubs" who litter and abuse freely provided privileges. How do you change the in-bred habits of generations of anti-social parasites, who know no better? You know the type, they, who steal the roll of toilet paper, along with the breaking into a padlocked meter box, snapping off council parks water taps handles, filling caravan water tanks from limited drinking only water supplied facilities, etc.

So, we were originally asked about the issue of wanting to free camp on someone's property. That is something that only the "requesting camper" can answer by his/her own enquiries/negotiations, directly to the farmer or whoever. I can't see any organization being set up for this facility, because it would need commercial interests to start it, and I imagine that the free campers who want all the benefits, wouldn't want to pay for it anyway.

The mindsets of a lot of recreational vehicle travellers, are directed to wanting all of the benefits, ie, security, toilet facilities, close to a town, rubbish bins, and space to stretch out, a fire perhaps. In short, a piece of paradise, and when it is not handed to them on a plate, or it has also been discovered by the hordes of free loaders, they get p...ed off, and cannot understand why. The worst proponents of this unattainable lifestyle is the industry itself, and the caravanning publications, urging "free camping" All I can hope, is that I don't have to travel to the same places. Give me the desert anytime.

AnswerID: 503452

Reply By: beaul - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 11:20

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 11:20
A lot of you guys are missing the point.
Caravan parks are not what most of us want.
We want a bit of privacy, (not jammed in next to another caravan) to we able to light a small fire, and bring our pets, and not be charged for swimming pools, jumping castles, motel rooms etc.
Why should Local councils be able to control where we park overnight and restrict farmers from suppling a service that the caravanning public require. Without forcing us to do what their caravan park mates want.
In Britain they have B& B's why can't we have a similiar but different system here in Australia
AnswerID: 503459

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 12:23

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 12:23
I think I can see your point of what you want.
Maybe you may do better to speak to the Mayor or a Councillor at one or more of the shires you visit. You may gain an understanding of the issues and you could put your views to them. Simply complaining on this forum is unlikely to achieve your wishes. You may get more understanding from a caravanning forum than here.
Cheers
Allan

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Reply By: beaul - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 14:11

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 14:11
what took you so long
AnswerID: 503465

Reply By: The evil Doctor - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 14:15

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 14:15
You are kidding me right............................

Whinging about paying for parks to be maintained, whinging about paying for a caravan park to stay in business and keep it's abolution blocks clean, whinging about paying to get onto a "house/farm sitting website............

OMG, if I end up like you in my future years, put me out of our misery.....

I have had the misfortune whilst touring this great land (and have no issues paying my way) to be abused, that right a fair dinkum abuse session, whereby I had kindly mentioned to this feral OLD nomad (I'm 49 btw) that dumping his chemical toilet waste in the parking bay we both had stopped for lunch at, wasn't the done thing...........

If you want to spoil an overnight stop (yes that is what they are designed for!) and FREE camp there for weeks on end, yes that is so wrong and very "unaustralian". These spots are designed, maintained and kept at council rate payer's expense and you now sir, have the gall to demand that you have the god given right to exploit these rules for your own advantage.
If you sir, are unable to afford travelling, may i suggest finding a suitable retirement home and leaving the roads free for people who are willing to pay their way, support rural communities and enjoy the outback whilst we can and before fools like your good self spoil it!!!!!!
AnswerID: 503466

Follow Up By: beaul - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 15:09

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 15:09
Another one who can't read,
That is not what I said at all.
I have never said I want it free, I just don't like being charged for something I don't use and don't need and i don't like rules made up by some petty bureaucrat who is making up the rules to help his caravan mates.
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Follow Up By: beaul - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 15:23

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 15:23
This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Double-up Post Removed Rule .

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 16:27

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 16:27
Well Beaul, you have used the word "free" ELEVEN times. Did you mean something else?
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: beaul - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 16:44

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 16:44
Free can also mean free of big brother telling us how to live ourlives
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 16:57

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 16:57
Ahh, now that 'Freedom' comes at a cost.
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Allan

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Follow Up By: beaul - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 17:02

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 17:02
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 17:12

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 17:12
.

Guys, I think we are wasting our time here!

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: beaul - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 17:41

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 17:41
Good, you have misread what I have been trying to say, and just keep repeating the same crap.
I think you are wasting your time because you can't handle another individual's point of view.
You are not in the majority, just go back and look through the posts.
I have raised a point, I believe a good point that Councils should not have the right to Ban "Free Camping" just as the "National Parks" should not have the right to impose their will and high fees on us. (without consultation) they are supposed to be "public servants" what a joke that is

We, the people, should have more say in how this country is run.
( and don't give me the crap about we vote every 3 years) Australians have for too long excepted this 'cop it sweet and pay up attitude'
It is about time we stood up for ourselves.
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 22:36

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 22:36
No society can function effieciently by pandering to every individual's opinions, wants and needs, but the shooters party has shown what you can do with a tiny vote in NSW so maybe a caravanners party might also get some traction (so to speak) if someone has the initiative to step up.

I agree with a little of what you suggest (and disagree with a whole lot more) - a nation this wealthy shoud be able to provide basic "touring" facilities for a low cost (ie subsidised). Plenty of taxpayers money goes to things far less worthy.
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FollowupID: 780186

Follow Up By: Member - Scott M (NSW) - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:22

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:22
"4 to add that light bulbs expire because of a government conspiracy...
6 to claim that light bulb regulations are just another sign of the 'nanny state' ...."

Have you ever bothered to walk into the office of a " petty bureaucrat" and ask why the decision has been made ..... or lodge a protest?
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FollowupID: 780200

Follow Up By: The evil Doctor - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 14:21

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 14:21
Yes I can read, obviously better that you understand the concept of caravan parks!

Now here's a suggestion for ya beaul, to help "support" your "free" but not "free" camp philosophy, how about caretaking at a caravan park?

This is "free" and you might get a small income as well. Win Win eh!

Oh, that's right, the caravan parks are thieves run by council bureaucrats and thier mates...................

If you weren't an old fart, I'd tell you to "grow up"!
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FollowupID: 780217

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 17:25

Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 17:25
Bazooka ,so want the Taxpayer to subsidise your "touring" ?? as you state "plenty of taxpayers money goes to things far less worthy " ,, well , I for one refuse to pay extra tax so that YOU can have free toilet paper on your travels ,,,
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FollowupID: 780302

Follow Up By: Bazooka - Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 22:55

Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 22:55
You can rest easy Alloy c/t. No-one is asking you to pay more tax - at least not to cover my travels. You seem to have missed the point so I'll reiterate - I'm talking about funding priorities. Basic services such as public toilets and simple camping facilities ought to be available and affordable in this rich nation, particularly at a time when tourism is struggling. Taxpayers dollars by the hundreds of millions are put into sporting facilities, events and clubs, entertainment, etc in the big cities so frankly I don't think the provision of basic facilities for travellers in the country is a lot to ask. If everyone paid their proper share of the tax burden and our billionaires were as generous as American philanthropists we'd be able to fund pretty much everything on our long wishlists. But that's another story.
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FollowupID: 780335

Reply By: beaul - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 18:49

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 18:49
To you Alan,
my reply to another thread on this forum about "why can't we camp anywhere in Australia"
I lived in the USA for ten years and other than the fact that you have too many guns, I found overall your system is better thanAustralia. We have evolved as an English /Irish society where the english owned the property and made the rules and the Irish did all the work. That has changed now but the system remains, a socialist society.
Too many Australians accept "' big brother knows best" where as in America people fight for their freedom.
We have a situation at the moment that a lot of local councils are banning " free camping" and forcing travellers to stay at overpriced caravan spots (corruption?, probably ) Using the hygiene,waste problem as a red herring. however Australians are so complacent they just grin and bare it and pay.
AnswerID: 503473

Follow Up By: disco driver - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 19:31

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 19:31
As I said in my previous follow up.
There is nothing free, someone has to pay for it in one way or another. User pays is fairer than ratepayers paying just so you can camp somewhere for free.
Your comment about americans fighting for their freedom, tell that to those who had no freedom at Newtown a few weeks ago.

If you are not happy here and from your posts you obviously are not, then go back to the Land of the Free and whine there.

Disco.
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Follow Up By: beaul - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 19:56

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 19:56
This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Personal Attacks Rule .

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Follow Up By: Member - Mary W NW VIC - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 20:38

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 20:38
I have been on this forum for many years and it saddens me to see how posters attitudes have changed.The need to settle differences of opinion in an adverserial sometimes verbial violent matter is distressing.We all travel this great land and I am afraid that these dog eat dog don't tell me what to do attitudes prevail on the road.If the bin is full just drop your junk any where.Hey an little polite kindness goes a long way Pick up a bit of rubbish -challenge litterers to do the right thing -With a large smile of course! It's not someone else's problem it's all of us's problem
"Some people walk in the rain,others just get wet."

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Reply By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 12:32

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 12:32
We have a situation in this country where governments are systematicaly abdicating their responsibilities to provide the basic services we pay our taxes for.

They no longer understand that it is their fundamental responsibility to provide public services at cost to the public, paid for by their taxes or for "at cost fees"...Or on some cases subsidised by other lucritave tax incomes like mining roylaties or taxes on big business.

Instead they believe these services should be profitable, or even better not provide these services at all and get the public sector to provide them on a fee for service basis.......at an inflated cost..witness what has happend to power and water of late.

Then we have the public sector who never content with their profits, strive to increase their per unit charges or the fees from each customer by upselling their service.

Combine this with ever " improving standards" required of bisiness owners and the accompanying fees, we find prices for all sorts of stuff skyrocketing.

This is right across the board..........many years ago, Johhny Howard said "We have made the decision that, Australia will be a high wage economy"......this was not a commonly quoted statement and even less understood....it then follows that Australia will be a high priced economy.

Thus we have neglected national parks, with ever increasing access and camping fees and commercial caravan parks with ever increasing fees for facilities that many simply do not use.

Less and less are the poor or the budjet concious catered for, welfare, services and facilities for pensioners and the unemployed have been reduced to a bare minumum for survival....ya cant make money out of the poor.

And things like camping holidays are one of those things that the attitude is ..they can damn well pay for it....and there are plenty who can.

There was a time when you could not earn much, not spend much and do OK.....Unfortunately it no longer pays to be poor in this country.

So if you want to do well on a low income...and that includes traveling/camping you have to get very smart and not miss a trick.
Remember the well off types that can afford to pay the high fees, don't want to pay them either......they did not get all their money by being stupid or wasting money.

So if you are on a budjet you have them to compete with too.

So...if you want to do well on little money you have to get up before them and get smarter than them.......or similpy sell the camper and apply for public housing.

Fortunately there are quite a few "Private" camping grounds arround, with basic facilities ..like the 4wd parks....but many of them struggle to satisfy burocracy to stay in business.

Don't thnk that this ever incresing price for a suposedly ever increasing service is going to change any time soon.

And don't thing that wingieng will do much good either..

Sorry.......All you can do is get up early and get it where ya can.

Those free (as in free beer) road side camps do still exist, but knowing where they are is another thing all together.

After all if you are poor and camping for free...you must be some sort of vagrant.
Be thankfull that they dn't have you before the beak and send you to the work house.


cheers
AnswerID: 503505

Reply By: beaul - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 15:17

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 15:17
Thank you Bantum I agree with your point of view.
I apologise to all those who I appear to have upset.
I believe I have used the word "Free" that some of you have taken out of context, In future I will use "Independant camping"
I don't want anyone else picking up my rubbish, I am quite capable of looking after myself. I don't need power, I have solar and a generator
What I object to, is being TOLD by local authorities that I can't independant camp.
I am not looking for a free ride.
Please before you reply, please read my previous posts on this thread, and don't jump to conclusions as so many of you have done.
Many caravanners spend thousands of dollars outfitting their vans so they can be "Independant" They want to travel our great country, and have a small fire, pets and a bit of space. Why is that being denied to them by some local authorities
AnswerID: 503510

Follow Up By: Hairy (NT) - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 15:34

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 15:34
"Why is that being denied to them by some local authorities"
In a lot of cases.......because people are getting fed up with cleaning up after those who do the wrong thing.
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Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 17:36

Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 17:36
You got it in One Hairy ,,, Beaul , just because someone spends x$$$ on a vehicle and van and deems themselves "independant" does in no way make them so , ratepayers still pay for your waste disposal , refilling your water , etc etc ,,
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FollowupID: 780303

Follow Up By: beaul - Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 18:05

Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 18:05
I thought (supplying bins and emptying them) was what local councils were supposted to do. Have the rules changed, please advise
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FollowupID: 780306

Follow Up By: Hairy (NT) - Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 20:41

Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 20:41
No mate they havent and I can asure you as I have occationally had to do it while someone is on leave.........the emptying of bins are budgeted for but the continual clean up of inconsiderate users is not only expensive but bloody anoying.......thats why councils decide to close these areas.
To put it really simply.......if the rate payers in any area had a choice of haveing their road graded (or something that benifited them) or sending a work crew out to clean up the roadside stop Im pretty sure I know were they would like there rates spent?
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FollowupID: 780324

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013 at 19:37

Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013 at 19:37
I am sure the rate payers would be more than happy to have a properly serviced and maintained rest stop, that encouraged travelers to stop and spend time and money in their town, rather than some very expensive pointless monument, or other white elephaint.( which BTW was constructed and installed by contractors from the big city or worse "The South")

they would be more than happy.

I am also sure many small towns and semi remote comunities would be happy to have a clean painted 44 gallon drum that was regularly emptied, when fancier high profile locations in the same local government district have a string fancy architect designed rubbish bins that are worth a mans wages for a year....the same bins that are very regularly serviced and polished and preened.
Serioilst some of these bin "installations" cost $5000 and $10000 a bin.

I am sure that many local people would rather see the council employ a single extra man to empty bins than, pay for an expensive imported car and an unlimited fuel card for councilors.

I am also certain that people would rather see properly serviced waste disposal facilities than have the rubbish dumped or thrown by the road sides

And I could go on, there is so much government waste and money spent on touchy feely unnecessaries.....and governments of all levels are failing to provide the most basic of services.

And yess the state and federal governments sould be contributing to the costs of servicing the waste that comes from an industry that generates a large amount of the state and federal economy and pays a very large sum into the GST revenuses.

cheers
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FollowupID: 780403

Reply By: KevinE - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 18:39

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 18:39
Hi beaul,

I’m guessing that before retirement, you were employed & expected a reasonable wage?

I run a small business & I know that the people I employ expect & deserve to get paid a reasonable wage for their efforts!

With wages + super + workcover it costs a minimum of $45K per person per year to employ someone.

On top of that, in my small business, I have over $400 per week of residual costs such as advertising, insurance, fuel & equipment maintenance. I do not have the extra expenses that a CP has, such as electricity charges, water rates, grounds maintenance etc. So their bills will be MUCH higher than mine.

Plus, I had to invest over $50K in plant & equipment before I set up & mine is a very small business!

All of my costs are tax deductable, but I still have to generate income equal to the value of my expenses to even break even on those tax deductions & I still had to spend the money to start with, with no guarantee of any return whatsoever.

A CP involves a massive capital outlay to set the business up, or to buy one already running. This capital is not tax deductable until the business is sold or winds up. So CP operators have HUGE amounts of money tied up in their businesses!

Surely, running a CP is a business venture? The operators are taking all the risk, surely they deserve to eat & pay their bills at the end of the week?

Some people will never get it! Example: Part of what I do involves removing waste to the dump. Occasionally I still get people who think I should remove it for the amount it costs me to get into the dump (using MY Ute & MY trailer). The rubbish doesn’t drive itself to the dump & unload itself. Similarly, I have no doubt that CP operators spend a lot of time & money getting the park ready for use & cleaning up after we leave.

Ironically, I only ever find this attitude among older men! ;)

AnswerID: 503525

Follow Up By: beaul - Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 08:48

Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 08:48
So, what has that got to do with Independant camping.
And what do you mean by "older men"
Maybe because we remember when local councils did what they are paid to do.
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FollowupID: 780273

Follow Up By: beaul - Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 18:21

Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 18:21
No, I am an International Horticultural Scientist who has generally been self employed.
However I am disgusted at the replies i have been receiving from people on this forum who can't read, and who try to put other opinions down without trying to understand the facts I am quoting.
Times have changed and not for the better. Local councils should not have the right to ban Independant camping because some cararvan park complains (I have that in Writing by the way
and I am going to to do something about it. Does anyone support me on that ( no money required)
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FollowupID: 780308

Follow Up By: KevinE - Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 20:15

Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 20:15
Hi beaul,

"I am disgusted at the replies i have been receiving from people on this forum who can't read"

Sorry if you found my post disgusting, but I can read mate, I was addressing the very 1st line you wrote in this thread, which was:

"More and more councils are banning local camping and forcing us Grey Nomads to stay at caravan parks with excessive rates"

"So, what has that got to do with Independant (sic) camping."

I was simply trying to point out that there is more to running ANY business than meets the eye & a CP is a business. As a previously self employed person (as against a business owner), I thought you'd understand that?

"I am disgusted at the replies i have been receiving from people on this forum who try to put other opinions down without trying to understand the facts I am quoting"

All I've read is posts with differing opinions & that's what forums are all about isn't it? You're entitled to your opinion, as am I to mine. Opinions are simply that, they're neither right, nor wrong!

"I am 64 years old and what upsets me is that it never used to be like this in Australia."

Oh yes it did mate! I was moved on by the police from a camp site near Ouyen in Vic in 1976 because it was illegal to free camp in Vic even then!

" Local councils should not have the right to ban Independant camping because some cararvan park complains"

Do you really believe that mate??? I'll put it to you this way; imagine that YOU are the CP operator. You pay exorbitant council rates to operate the CP, you employ several local people to empty bins, cleaners, gardeners etc & you keep numerous other local businesses afloat with purchases & referrals. Would you really tolerate the council allowing people to take business of you by allowing camping on community land? Now imagine that you are an elected member of the council; would you really want to anger all the people mentioned above by threatening their livelihood by allowing "free" camping on council land? Of course not! You wouldn't be a councillor for very long if you did!

"And what do you mean by "older men"

Well, I'm of retirement age, but I choose to keep working so that I am able to maintain my standard of living, rather than retire. I certainly don't think that anyone else should subsidise my retirement by paying for me to stop in "free" camp sites as I traverse this great country! Just last week I was contracted to work for a lovely 91 yr old lady; she worked until December 2012! YES, IT SHOCKED ME TOO, BUT IT'S TRUE!

So I guess I'm talking about men of my age or older lol!


I have more than a passing interest in horticulture beaul & am wondering what your discipline is?
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FollowupID: 780320

Reply By: mikehzz - Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 20:24

Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 at 20:24
If I am right in what I am reading, then you are suggesting that farmers be allowed to take campers in cheaply? Do you think that CP owners are making a motza and the farmers can provide the service at a lower rate because they are providing less facilities? With no offence meant, I think you are dreaming. I think all small business is struggling with overheads and believe CP's are not immune. If word got out that you could stay at a particular farm very cheaply, I reckon the farmer would have the irrits in no time flat, his farm would be trashed and his attention distracted from his core business. Insurance would be a nightmare. That's my opinion :-)

As for bins being filled in one go by one group of people, that happens all the time. All there has to be is a fivesy's with 4-5 people and a barbie plus drinks and a bin will be full. I've seen that a lot. Bins out in the sticks can't be emptied that often, I would suggest once a week? When the bin is full, people put the rubbish around it instead of finding another bin. It's awesome. Councils have a budget and that's life, no use blaming them.

One other point, councils run on rates. Only a very small proportion of funds (typically 7-8%) are from higher government grants and usually for a specific purpose, certainly not garbage collection. So it's not your taxes that are paying for the garbage collection and toilet cleaning at free camps, it's the local rate payers. Kind of ironic that the CP owner could be helping finance the free alternative?
AnswerID: 503583

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