Trailers & Dunes...

Alan, I suggest that travellers who are towing through the desert are not spreading the same weight over three axles. They are carrying things like more comfortable beds and other furniture. They are carrying in effect a larger and more comfortable tent and kitchen. They will also be tempted to carry more water, food and bigger fridges plus the battery installations needed to drive them.

They also will not be using a standard box trailer which weighs around 300 kg, it will be a much heavier and sturdier trailer. There will thus be some transfer of weight from the tug but a hell of an increase in mass behind them. Any transfer of weight will also mean less traction to tow the extra mass.

Hi Alan and Peter

We travel with a car full of recovery gear, food, clothes and a bunch of tools and spares. We could also have a fridge or if a long trip and second fridge in the back. We normally sleep in a 80Kg (I think) roof top tent.

I had a thought.

If we had a trailer, which we do not, any kind of camper trailer, and changed to using a trailer then one fridge would go out of the car and the rooftop, a whole 80Kg, would be removed. Lightening the car by around 100-120 Kgs. Estimates guys don't kill me. Now hook up a 1 ton trailer, putting 100-150 Kgs on the towbar. Did not lose any weight from the car and gained a dead weight behind it.

I would say that the main problem is pulling that dead weight up the soft sand dune. Piece of cake on a smooth hard surface. But the dunes were far from a smooth straight and hard hill when we went through. They were pockmarked with big holes and bumps located randomly all over the track. No chance of a good strong run up. We were approaching some of the dunes at a slow 5KPH. Blowed if I am going to purposely shake the car around. But I didn't have to. It just flowed over and through the holes and bumps. No problems.

I do not care what tyre pressures are set at. This trailer would be like a millstone. Just imagine the drag from that dead weight would put on the car in front. And add a heap more because the undriven trailer tyres themselves would also produce more drag. And no run up to get some momentum. Nope almost from a dead stop. It was too rough.

Nah It has to cause damage. You cannot tell me that every trailer goes through the Simpson without getting stuck. Not if it was in the condition that we saw.

Phil

PS Doesn't a "tug" go on water! Just stirring.

Peter

I agree thats the Space rule, "what you carry will always grow to fill the unoccupied space"

Alan

A good one Peter. And so true.

My wife and I were just talking about it. We both for a recent week in the Vic High country packed our clothes bags and then tossed out half of them.

We have never really done that to the car. Except for now as it's in the panel beaters and home on Friday we hope. I wonder how many do pack for the current trip. We have until now left it all in the car. It's not used apart from trips. Maybe to go and get a bottle of milk but that's all.

Your post triggered an chat about two sets of plastic boxes that fit neatly into the drawers. One set for a long trip and one set for a short or weekend trip. It's harder for the recovery gear though. Especially as most of our trips are single vehicle remote trips and we like to be self reliant and not rely on passing traffic. There may not be any.

Phil

PJR

GVM is about what you take not how you take it. When I did the trip to Cape York I met at least 1 vehicle that, by the drivers admission had a GVM of at least 4 tonne. I came across a couple of others that had to be close to that. All carried on just 2 axles. I had about 3.5 tonne spread over 3 axles.

What causes the big holes on the approach side of dunes is wheelspin. This is caused mainly by poor driving, going too fast, trying to "power" up the hill rather than drive up while maintaining traction.

I have towed my Trak Shak across the Simpson. We did a combination of the three main tracks and travelled west to east. I had no trouble climbing any of the dunes except Big Red. Even on Big Red I did not spin a wheel. When I lost forward momentum I lifted my foot off the throttle and backed down. Once you have lost traction in the sand you won't magically find it by using more power. So stop and try something different.

I learned how to back a trailer before I went bush with it. Having practised the art on the road I then went and practised on dirt and in soft sand, even on dunes before I went bush. So backing down held very little fear. Having backed down I further reduced tyre pressures an all six wheels and made another attempt.

As for tyre pressures. On road my camper runs pressures about 25% less than the car. When I leave sealed roads I have a staged approach to dropping tyre pressures. There are many reasons for this including increased traction, better puncture resistance and comfort. Tyre pressure on the trailer is never higher than the car. I travelled most of the Simpson with 18psi. For Big Red I ended up at 13psi.

I encountered a guy on the beach at Fraser who had dug massive holes on the flat of the beach and finally bogged himself below the high tide mark. He was not towing a trailer. I pulled up next to him, reduced his tyre pressure and instructed him on how to quietly drive out. 15 minutes later I watched as he returned his tyres to street pressure at a service station. I hope he never goes to the Simpson or CSR because he WILL cause track damage.

Trailers do not cause track damage; poor drivers do.

Duncs

Duncs

Where did GVM come into it? I was just trying to show that adding a trailer would not really affect the weight of our car even taking into account what would "shift" off the car and into the trailer. Absolutely nothing to do with whats imprinted on the plate under the bonnet.

You mentioned good and bad drivers and who causes damage to the desert. Following along from your post we than have to look at who is allowed to or prohibited from taking a trailer into the Simpson.

Should we get the SA Government to edit their instructions to say that only bad drivers are recommended not to take trailers. I wonder how well that would go down. But if that's not approved by the "rights" people then we have two choices, namely to say nothing and let anyone take anything through or to leave the statement as is, that it is not recommended that trailers are taken into the desert.

What would you do to protect the desert?

Phil

Phil,

You have said quite consistently in recent times that you have only driven the Simpson once.
You have mentioned how much you like it and put the same pictures of your trip up more than once.

That's great - I like desert country too...It's great to be out there isn't it. We share a common enthusiasm. I have driven the Simpson too, once only mind you, and on the most popular run - The French Line (and quicker than anyone on this site has ever, ever mentioned, whoops flame suit on)

You comment on pretty well every thread on this site that even mentions the Simpson Desert - however you consistently bang the same old thing - People who drive with trailers are bad - only because the Desert Parks pass or whatever it is - says so!!! It's only recommended not to take trailers, as far as I know it is not against the law.
You say even on this thread you are no expert, yet you have always something to say on the matter.

If it's not against the law, then please quit your constant reprimanding of others who chose to take there trailers with them.
Cheers
Alan

Yes we do share a common enthusiasm. The big difference is that we have seen a lot of tracks around here and over the border in Victoria locked up because of track damage and I would hate to see the Simpson locked up as well.

And yes it was our first visit and as such the damage was more noticeable. We weren’t “used” to it.

I want the desert available to all in the future. Not just for the fit who can walk in if it is closed but also for those like myself who cannot just walk in.

People complain about the tracks in the high country getting closed because of damages. Why is it that people think that the Simpson is immune. It’s not.

By all means take your trailers. According to the knowlegable ones, if you are a good driver and with propper tyre pressures, the correct gear and maybe even lockers, etc etc etc then you won’t damage the desert and thus not get the place locked. But then multiply your trip by a hundred or even a thousand or more, what then. Who is to judge. We judge ourselves. We who never have egos or believe their "truck" does not damage anything. Not bloody likely. Chuckle.

Read my last response to Duncs and ask the same question of yourself. What would you do? Shut up and let anything go through or what? Too many people shut up about the threat to the tracks in the high country. Too late now.

I don’t think that the case is closed on the Simpson as yet and I would absolutely love to be wrong. But I have not seen any evidence that even suggests so.

Is it true that on the Willuna end of the CSR those with trailers are not allowed between wells 1 and about 6 or 8. Why? You have a CSR photo in your profile. Maybe you can answer that one.

Phil

PS Do you approve of the thumbnail.

I will give you a rest tomorrow. More surgery at the hospital.

aaaaaaggggghhhhhh

I don't know what I would do Phil.

The Simpson's geographic location is its worst problem. Just far enough from Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane to be unachievable for a long weekend trip, yet close enough for a short break away from the city to experience the peace and quiet which we both enjoy.

Already it costs quite a bit to enter, and it is closed during the summer.

It just seems a bit unfair to ban trailers for all, when you can do more damage with a single vehicle if you weren't careful.

I can't comment on the high country as I don't know much about it.

The Simpson has much more pressure on it than than any other desert in Australia, even when I went through in late 2005 I saw more people on it on the day I crossed it than you would in a week on some of the desert tracks in WA (where I generally hang out for my peace time).

Is it progress, heading towards an inevitable end?? They could always close the tracks and make some new ones - then the desert would at least seem quite pure and untouched, put a new track in every 20 years or so. It's not just people with trailers causing the problem, and that's a problem you and I together would not be able to solve.

Yes they have banned trailers at the southern end of the CSR, however that area is on pastoral land - and the pastoralists have made that decision. It is a bit tight and windy down that end though.

Don't get into miniature trains much however did used to like watching them at the Perth Royal Show when I was a kid!!!

Cheers
Alan

Alan mate I do not know either. I just don't want to lose any more places where we can all go. And the more that just think about it the better. Thats all I want instead of being told its the tyres or th driver. Nah Just think about looking after it all. Hills and dale.

We were lucky on the WAA line. Only car was Jeff doing a recovery. Heaps on the rest of the drive.

"Is it progress, heading towards an inevitable end??" Lets hope not.

Here is an OT one for you and keep it a secret:Waldbrunn activity Look for "vk1dx" to find more if you want. But I note that miniature trains are not your bag. That's fine.

I actually made the simple automation processors from individual transistors and components. I "dabbled" in electronics at work for 40 years so that part was simple. Had a ball and now it's gone and all packed up for the grandkids to one day hopefully make a hobby out of it all.

The Toyota needed a comfortable and warm (its Canberra after all) place to sleep you see!!!

Speaking of sleep. Note the time of this post. I couldn't sleep worrying about this operation today. I hate the "knife". I'd rather have chemo. At least you are awake watching them "kill" you. Actually I have had enough of both.

Have a good one. Share a beer one day.

Phil

Don't I recall someone driving a Landcruiser across the Simpson admitting they weighed in at about 3800 with 28psi tyre pressure.

That would do a lot more damage than a properly loaded and well driven trailer combo

PJR QUOTED "Should we get the SA Government to edit their instructions to say that only bad drivers are recommended not to take trailers"

There is another reason why they don't like people taking trailers....... a trailer can be something made at home for as little as a few $$$ or in our case a 60 grand Ultimate, have a guess what is going to make it.

Can you imagine someone with a $800 trailer has it fail and the recover costs are going to be $2000+ to get it back home...... you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know what they will choose and where the trailer will end up.

Big difference in a true off road trailer and a so called off road trailer.

And trying to stipulate what type, condition and sort of trailer is OK would be a minefield for the Government, so the say "it is advisable not to take trailers"..... much easier to use 7 words than 4000.

Do you really think to government gives a %$#@ about the conditions of outback tracks..... simple answer is NO..... they have no interest at all.

For years the owners of Hamilton Station and I believe Dave from Mt Dare has be in heated discussions with the S.A Government over the lack of maintenance and lost income from travelers due to neglected tracks and roads.

Hi Lyn

I think that it was as advised by Dean at Oodnadatta (correct the name if I am wrong AGAIN) with 26 rear and 20 front, from there to the Simpson via Finke, Lambert center, Chambers and Mt Dare until we stopped and aired down when the dunes and soft sand came up. 3800 PSI? I hope that you quoted me because I cannot recall saying that. But I also do not deny it. However I told the forum on more than one occasion that the chemo has stuffed my recollection so please go away and play with something else. I admit all the time that I can make mistakes. Apparently you don't.

I bet that you totally enjoyed having a go at me. Gee I love you NOT

Olcoolone

We agree on something at last, that we must take care of these places. Not just the Simpson though. Just my point.

Phil

PJR,

I am simply trying to point out that there is more to the track damage question than trailers.

I mention GVM (the total weight of vehicle and load) because elsewhere in this thread people suggest that people with trailers take more stuff. Implying that this contributes to the damage the trailer is already causing.

Yes I did mention good and bad drivers, because I believe driver skill and attitude have a greater influence on track damage than any other factor. I think rather than look at who should or shouldn't be allowed to take a trailer we should look at who should or shouldn't be allowed to own a 4wd. I would like to ban idiots. But I know that it would be too hard to enforce and way too hard to define.

As for protecting the track, I actually agree with the advice not to take trailers. But everyone needs to remember it is an advice not a law. Like you I would not like to see the Desert restricted to walkers, I think it is important that families get to see it too, not just people who are two up in a 4wd. If you ban trailers you will ban many families.

I met a ranger at a national park in another sand dune area who only charged the park entry fee of people who had tyre pressures set too high because they are the ones who damage the dunes. Perhaps SA could implement something similar. It would not be hard to police as there are limited entry and exit points for the Simpson. Maybe even have a ranger drive through from time to time to check on driver behaviour. Years ago I used to camp in the Royal National Park. Rangers would come around and incpect campsites even offering advice on how to improve our camp set up.

People towing trailers are a soft target in this debate, but they are not the only culprits and not all are guilty.

Do some people with trailers cause track damage? Yes some do but so do some people without trailers. If this point ins not made then trailers will be banned everywhere.

Duncs

Duncs

Calm down mate. The very last line in my post (788261) before you states "we must take care of these places. Not just the Simpson". Just my point.

Whats more important. Being able to drive through the Simpson or keep it open.

I let my tyres down primarily so that I don't dig big holes in the place. Not to just get over the dune, but to get over the dune or through the mud with minimal impact. And am still learning.

There are two issues in the thread as I see it, namely damage to the desert and driver skills.

On damage: I just want the place protected from us and kept open for everyone. Not like in the Victorian high country near here that is getting tracks closed too frequently.

On vehicles: If some vehicle combinations are damaging the tracks then who is to judge who is a good driver and be allowed through. Do we stop people and ask for evidence of sand driving courses.

And you addressed the "damage" nicely at the end of your post. But didn't say who is to judge who is a good or bad driver. And I don't blame you as it's a minefield of discrimination verses ego etc. The current status proves that.

Phil