NT Unlimited Speed Trial

As you know Robin it is all about revenue. I can remember doing 115mph between Hay & West Wyalong in NSW years ago in my Valiant VIP 318 V8 & it seemed like you were crawling & they had De Restriction signs then. There was flat land both sides even if you left the road. Now you have good roads governed to 100kph & super roads like on my recent trip from QLD to Sydney governed in places from 110kph to 60kph because some idiot forgot to pull the sign down. Or maybe it was left for the Speed Camera's ! I feel sorry for you poor buggers in Vic with all the camera's that are forced on you, but having said that I learnt the other day that they have installed a hidden speed camera in a guard rail some where near Cairns. Makes you wonder what's around the corner !

I am not sure if you are for a trial or against it :)

I didn't even know that they now have speed limits, until I heard about this trial. So I don't know when speed limits were introduced... But It used to be no limit. You could go as fast as you could, but you did have to "appear" to be in control.

If 'the track' is still anything like it was last time I saw it...Then there really is no need for speed limits. Except for the towns of course :)

"Politicians" and "Common Sense" - a few words that you don't hear together very often...good on them - hope the trial works and they roll out trials on some of the better roads throughout Oz. I doubt it though.

Yes, it is refreshing to have a government with a different outlook to the authorities in other states. I don't see any need for pinging motorists going 2kph over the limit. I would rather motorists are watching the road, not putting all their attention on their speedo. At least here in the NT there is a level of tolerance (usually 7-8kph) if you are going over and the coppers are pragmatic in their approach to law enforcement (eg they realise you may have to go over the limit whilst over taking slower vehicles). And money would be better spent on Black spots than policeman hiding up in trees with speed cameras.

It was interesting to see the Pedestrian Council come out with guns blazing over the announcement. The location of the speed limit trial is 200km north of Alice Springs. I am left wondering as to what pedestrians in particular were they referring to ....

It's not high speed that's the issue - it's the disparity in speeds between road users who are required to travel at much lower speeds (caravanners and trucks) - and those who want to "floor it" to get to Point B in the shortest possible time.

Then there's the additional skill set needed to travel at very high speeds. At extremely high speeds, things happen one helluva lot faster than at slow speeds.
I know this, because when I was young and silly, I had a hot V8 Holden that would do 240 kmh, and I constantly drove it to the engines limit and frightened the living beejesus out of myself numerous times - such as when a bend on a gravel road that wasn't sharp at 100kmh, became a VERY sharp bend at 180kmh!
I survived (probably more because of good luck and lonely roads in my favour) and became pretty adept at vehicle handling at high speed.

There's a lot of people with driving licences out there now, who can't keep control of their vehicle and keep it upright at 90-100kmh - let alone 150 or 160kmh.

I feel that anyone who wants to drive above 110kmh should undergo additional training and have a high speed endorsement added to their licence.

The problems start when someone with a slow-speed rural mentality pulls out onto the highway without looking - or worse, they seriously misjudge the speed of oncoming traffic.
Then you have the situation of someone pulling out onto the hwy from a side road, only looking one way - and someone doing 160kmh is doing an overtaking manouvre right at that point, and they're on the wrong side of the road. A head-on is the result, and I've seen this happen numerous times.

I was travelling West of Kimba a few years ago with an overwidth load and coming down a long gradient at about 80kmh, when I saw this bloke in an old Nissan Patrol station wagon, driving out along a farm road to my left, on top of the next hill, about 2kms away.

He was coming out of a paddock and entered the hwy, turning towards me. He never even looked as he pulled out onto the Eyre Hwy - and he pulled out, right in front of a couple of young blokes in an empty Mitsubishi 8 ton truck, who must have been doing 115kmh, pedal to the metal.
I didn't know Mitsubishi trucks could go so fast, this bloke was obviously knocking off from work.

The bloke in the truck just panicked and locked up everything. The truck started skidding with huge clouds of blue smoke, and it got closer and closer to the Nissans back window, as the Nissan gradually picked up speed.

I was sure the truck was going to ram the Nissan - but no, the Nissan steadily picked up speed as the truck slowed down, and it came up to within about 2 metres of the Nissans back window!
The truck then came to a sliding, broadsiding halt, with the front wheels in the roadside drain - and the bloke in the Nissan steadily roared past me, blissfully unaware of anything happening behind him!!

I stopped to check on the blokes in the Mitsubishi, and they were O.K., apart from shot nerves. I measured their skidmark after they got going again - it was 145 metres in length!!

You could well imagine the scenario if the blokes in the Mitsubishi truck were in a car instead, doing 160kmh.
Unless everyone using the high-speed section of hwy is brought up to speed, then the scene is set for an increase in the number of accidents.

Just wait now for Scruby to launch is usual predictable tirade about how all speeding motorists will be killed and those that are left will explode into a ball of flame, or be devoured by semi trailer driving beasts.

Jack

is that the section that Peter Marco Falconio was killed.

I was reading about this on line and they say there were no fatal accidents in the past

I have not been out that way so i have no way of judging what are the roads like out that way is it safe to travel and over 110 ?

.

I read an interesting article somewhere a few weeks ago on the causes of young people basically not being able to "comprehend" driving. The article pointed out that when the baby boomers grew up (which I am part of) everyone grew up with their tricycles etc riding round and round the veranda and we soon learned how to do three point turns, space perception and the consequences of landing in the rose bushes. Kids also rode their bikes everywhere and gained a a good knowledge of road rules.
The local boys in blue were also part of the community they lived in, now they are basically despised in a lot of places as revenue collectors.

No matter what side of the fence you sit on, a casual glance of this issue would tend to gloss over many of the issues that we are confronted with when determining that the speed limit on certain roads should either be abolished or increased substantially.

Whilst improvements in road “technology and construction” might lend itself to faster speeds, should it be the only consideration?

Are there other environmental factors that need to be taken into account, for example at night, if it is raining, more than normal traffic flow at a particular time. And that is before we consider the person in the driver’s seat, are they capable to handle a vehicle at high speed, is the car suitable for purpose, and are tyres correctly inflated and brakes functioning properly.

The argument that driver’s are potentially more alert when travelling at higher speeds may have some merit, but ultimately, if something goes wrong no amount of alertness will compensate for the affect of speed nor will it change the laws of physics.

To me, it appears the relationship between speed and road accidents has been studied ad nauseam and the verdict tends to point to a higher instance of accidents as the speed goes up.

Something that doesn’t seem to figure heavily in the debate on removing speed restrictions is the effect of an increase in speed differentials between vehicles. It has been demonstrated that higher speed differentials lead to an increase in the probability of accidents occurring. Removing the speed limit will definitely change the average speed differential between vehicles travelling on our roads, and motorways.

There is also a body of evidence that demonstrates that, on average, a small reduction in the mean speed of vehicles leads to a two-fold percentage reduction in injuries from accidents, and a four-fold decrease in fatal accidents. And this is the reason speed limits have been reduced in residential areas and around schools.

There will be those that say it is to enhance revenue raising opportunity, but the studies that arrive at these conclusions are almost unchallengeable...

But here is the thing, we don’t travel in a “bubble” when on the road, so whilst anyone individual may be capable and mature to handle a higher speed, and be driving a well maintained vehicle – the person coming the opposite way may not be, your life in someone else’s hands. Sure, it is already, but why increase the potential risk?

This isn’t as simple, or easy as erecting a speed sign that says “no limit”.

A simple question.............

Why does anyone need to travel on a public road at an unlimited speed of greater than say, 130kph?

The stats about road deaths in the NT over the past 10 years are in this simple 2 page summary:
LINK HERE

Some snippets:
"Road fatalities in the Northern Territory are highly variable and unpredictable."

"The Territory has a significantly greater proportion of Indigenous people who are
over-represented in NT crash statistics and live predominantly in our remote
areas. The Territory also has a younger population and a large geographical area
with a vast road network which includes a significant length of unsealed road. Too
often, alcohol and speed are a factor."

"Over the last 10 years (2003-2012) 494 people have died on Territory roads and
5215 people were seriously injured (treated and taken to hospital).
On average, over the last 10 years:
- 49 people died each year (almost one person per week); and
- 522 people were seriously injured each year, requiring hospitalisation.
Of the 494 crash fatalities on NT roads:
- 356 (72%) were occupants of vehicles
- 99 (20%) were pedestrians, and of those pedestrians 81 (82%) were Indigenous;
and
- Of the 81 Indigenous pedestrian deaths 43 (53%) occurred in a rural area with 38
(47%) in an urban area.
- 34 (7%) were motorcyclists
- 5 were cyclists;
....
Casual and compounding factors sourced from the Department of Transport
Vehicle Accident Database state:
(Note: each fatality could have more than one factor)
- 44% were alcohol related;
- 47% of the drivers and passengers killed were not wearing a seatbelt;
- 23% were known to be speed related (Note: vehicle speed influences all crashes);
- 5% were known to be fatigue related (Note: this factor is difficult to conclude.)
....
In addition of the 439 fatal crashes:
- 250 (57%) were either single vehicle run off road or overturned;
- 96 (22%) were hit pedestrian crashes;
- 159 (32%) of the fatalities involved and unlicensed driver;
- Drivers under the age of 25 are overrepresented in our crash statistics; (Drivers
aged 16-24 make up 15% of licensed drivers and 14% of the population but are 33%
of driver fatalities);
- Indigenous people are over represented in our fatality statistics (Indigenous people
represent 29% of the NT population but are 50% of our fatalities).
- Males are also over represented. (Males represent around 50% percent of
population but 70% of fatalities).

I am of the belief (possibly mistaken) that on the Stuart Highway there were NO speed limits until Scruby (he of the NSW Pedestrian Council - not a National body) decided to stick his bib in and went to the NT Government with a story of forthcoming holocaust, swarms of killer bees and other pestilence, and persuaded them to adopt speed limits. So it seems they are simply reverting to the old system they had.

I also remember that as a result of no speed limits, a leg of the Sydney to London Marathon was run there (many years ago). It did result in one fatality, but I cannot remember if it was in the NT or somewhere in NSW. The memory fades ... and fades ... and ffffff ... where was I?????

Jack

Speed..... what a good topic.

Here is some information from the.....

ROAD TRAFFIC CRASHES IN NEW SOUTH WALES
Statistical Statement for the year ended 31 December 2010

Page 33 Table 15b : Crashes, speeding involvement, degree of crash

Crashes involving Speed
Fatals 146 - Injuries 3127 - No injuries 3852 Total 7125

Crashes not involving speed or cause unknown
Fatals 219 - Injuries 15844 - No injuries 19111 Total 35174

About 20% of accidents involve speed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ROAD TRAFFIC CRASHES IN NEW SOUTH WALES
Statistical Statement for the year ended 31 December 2011

Page 33 Table 15b : Crashes, speeding involvement, degree of crash

Crashes involving Speed
Fatals 137 - Injuries 3393 - No injuries 7396 Total 7396

Crashes not involving speed or cause unknown
Fatals 199 - Injuries 16512 - No injuries 35557 Total 35557

About 20% of accidents involve speed.

Makes good reading-
http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/crashstats2010.pdf
http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/crashstats2011.pdf

So why so much enforcement on speed when it contributes so little and they always harp on the unseen costs of speed....... seems more people die or are injured when no speed is involved, different to what they preach??????

Statistical Statement don't lie!

Hi Guys

This is a fun but thought provoking post and while its only been going a few hours I hope it has made us all think beyond the obvious.

I'm off to the bush for a heavy 24 hours while everyone else is distracted with the bike GP and won't be able to reply till saturday evening (winch dependant).

Robin

Hi All'

do not have time to read all posts BUT it was not that long ago that there was NO SPEED limit in NT and as I have just left the NT I can say you do have to do over that limit to pass road trains ( and before I am shouted down I went to school in Darwin and started my first job there 1959 to the mid 60st) and have been back few time since . The speed is not the problem but the loose nuts behind the wheel and that goes for all the states. The reason I did not have time to read all post is after free camping for 4 or 5 days no power to keep BEER cold and i'm told I DO NEED a shower have only put pute on and i'm still dying for a cold one.

My two pence, my thoughts.

DNB05 ( Harvey ) Tas

Well, I'm confused...plenty of statistics presented, mostly confusing. Do any stats refer
solely to the Stuart Hwy. How about some stats on traffic type ? eg number of Road
Trains per 24 Hrs..no of caravanners/towers..no of single cars etc.
My last trip from Alice to Uluru T/O ,in June, seems to indicate many more road train
& towers than single cars.
Why isn't 130 kph fast enough ?. Oops, forgot the bread & 200k back to the shop
to get it ???. For heavens sake !!!!. Will it save lives ? Seems questionable. What
is the result of those that decide to tow the big van at 200kph..just because they can..
This unlimited idea seems to have appeal to those that want somewhere to test their
car, & perhaps their driving skill, at speeds double the usual, & think an outback hwy
is the place they should be allowed to do it. The argument that a modern car with a skilled driver can safely do this may be true ,in controlled circumstances, but to compare the skills & respect shown on European Autobahns to the skills demonstrated by the average Aussie driver is laughable. Cars in Europe rarely even share the same
lane as trucks..let alone anything the size of a roadtrain.
I don't find enough hard evidence to support this move from this post..yet.. but
remain willing to be convinced..cheers....oldbaz.

Hi All
Just my two bobs worth when was the last time we hit a roo or a camel at two hundred k's an hour........................messy out come. Besides when I was a copper in the territory back in the seventies there weren't too many high speed accidents then because most vehicles could not do or maintain those speeds for long, because for one you either ran out of fuel or blew your motor up from overheating, let them do the trail and see where it takes us. as I said just my two bobs worth

Just out of curiosity, How many of the people here actually travel this stretch of road at high speed? By this i'm refering to before the limit was put in. Since the limit, how many travelled at that?
When I was there earlier this year, I was comfortable just sitting on 115-120.

Some interesting snippets from the today's NTNews:

"In July, the Stuart Highway was named as one of the worst roads in Australia in a report released by the Australian Automobile Association."

AANT quoting a report: ""only 6 lives have been lost and 62 seriously injured" on that stretch of road now subject to this open speed trial."

"More than 90% of the road the for the open speed trial is rated 3 stars or less."

The AANT have their reasons for opposing a return to open speeds at www.aant.com.au/reducespeed

I live in Darwin and when we moved up to this tropical paradise I made a promise to my wife to visit SA at least once a year. I have towed a trailer or camper along the Stuart Highway at least once a year for 11 years. We average 1000kms per day, sit on about 110kpH. In these 11 years we would be lucky to be overtaken by about 3 vehicles a day. There is no need for faster than 130kpH. And lots of the road, including the stretch in question, is unsafe to even travel at the current 130kpH. According to the media police will still be booking people they believe to be travelling at an unsafe speed.

I wonder if the Commonwealth will withhold road funding to try and pressure the Territory's CLP government to review its decision.

Hi. When I was iN NT in 05 and 06 on my Blackbird M/bike I was told many accidents were tourists in small vans trying to fly down the roads. I actually saw them driving flat out rocking and rolling in the wind. I know I will get many blasts on this thread but I averaged 180 kms per hour between fuel stops. I am probably older than nearly all on this site but still ride a Honda Blackbird and think 800 to 1000 kms is a normal days riding in daylight. My father used to ride 0ver 500 kms a day on dirt roads in the late 20s early 30s, so with the bikes, cars and the roads we have today if anyone think it is too far they are very weak.

Gday,
I spent most my life in Alice. Both before speed limits and after and I can assure you the only difference a speed limit meant to most locals was something else to watch out for.
Locals have a good idea of bad areas for cattle and roos etc and drive accordingly. Ive hit two roos in twenty years over thousands of kilometres and caused no damage to my vehicle at all.
The only people who actually sped up because of the no-limit were tourists because it was a novelty.

Great move I reckon.......I wish they would bring it in in WA

When I ride a bike on a trip it is for a purpose not just a novelty. It was the Top End m/bike rally at Darwin in o6 one weekend, Broken Hill rally the next weekend, with a trip out to Ayer's Rock for a climb and to see the sunset also sunrise near The Olgas in between. Travelling on my own I have met many wonderful people at the fuel stops that you would not meet at all with a big group. I have found that I concentrate more at a higher speed than I do at 100 kms per hr. I have also ridden on different race tracks like Phillip Is, Sandown, Calder, Winton Vic, also Isle Of Man, so it is no novelty to me riding at 250 kms per hr. I am no new chum to riding as I was in a sidecar in 1937 with my mother riding the m/bike and have ridden m/bikes for 60 years when you were not given a bikie you had to purchase it yourself. We can all make mistakes but it is the nut behind the wheel or the handle bars that you have to educate.

Hi, We were down at the Womens Pioneer Museum in Alice Springs just now and the volunteer lady was telling us that some time back a bloke towing a caravan tried to round up a road train on the double lines just North of town. He is now a statistic.

Just reviewing this thread and up came an RACV regional roads survey which enabled me to put my views in.

These things are often a pain but its a little thing we can do to help get the message about inapropriately low speed limits in some places.

So take the time to fill it out if it comes to you (probably only RACV members).