4WD camper hire company responsibilities

Submitted: Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 16:56
ThreadID: 105511 Views:3520 Replies:7 FollowUps:12
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Hi folks,

I've just been going through some photo's of the first 4WD trip that my partner and I did back in late 2009 and it got me thinking about some of the issues we faced on that trip. We have always really been into our camping but I really wanted to try something different and get to some of the spots that the Commodore wagon had no chance of reaching so we hired a 4WD pop-up camper and did a trek from Perth via Margaret River along the south coast to Esperance with our final destination being Israelite Bay. It was a late model turbo diesel troopy converted into a camper.

At that time I was relatively inexperienced behind the wheel of a 4WD. Given what I know now a few years later after having done an accredited training course plus dozens of treks in the past few years it concerns me how ill equipped that hire vehicle was. When I hired it I was asked where we were going but not how we were going to get there. We were not asked if we planned to tackle any tracks or do any beach driving or in fact any off road driving at all. The vehicle did not come with any recovery equipment, shovel, puncture repair, compressor etc etc the only thing it did have was an EPIRB in the glovebox and a fire extinguisher. Fortunately my brother was able to lend us this gear and gave me a run down on how to use it. The tyres on it were just cheap stock standard ones. We did a lot of offroad driving and fortunately my limited knowledge at the time included an idea of tyre pressures so I believe that preserved the tyres to a degree.

We were lucky enough to make it to Israelite Bay but this is where we encountered our first puncture. When I got the jack out of the back it was not even the jack designed for the model vehicle we had. We were in sand and after finding a semi sturdy base to put it on the jack broke before the wheel was even off the ground. I had to dig under the front wheel to give me enough clearance to put the spare on. I managed it but in hindsight it was very dangerous. Frightened about getting another puncture we crawled back to Esperance where I had the tyre repaired and purchased a suitable jack. Considering where we were if something had have gone very wrong we would have had no choice but to use the EPIRB. Perhaps not for an injury but overkill for a broken jack and flat tyre. I'd like to point out that we had been in IB for 2 days previous and had not seen another soul.

Looking back I should have taken more responsibility in researching and planning the trip and should have asked more questions. I was a bit "gung-ho" so I put my hand up to that but surely the people hiring these vehicles out should assume their customers are inexperienced and make it their business to find out exactly where people intend to go and provision them accordingly? At the very least some advice on some problems they may encounter and recommend the basic recovery equipment they may need. Maybe the next people like us may not be so lucky.

Cheers

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Reply By: Member-George (WA) - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 17:12

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 17:12
Hi Cruiser74, I agree with you 100%. We hear time after time how ill prepared people / tourists are, when they hire a 4WD. I just wonder how liable 4WD hire companies are when a serious accident, or worse still, a death occurs, due to an under equipped vehicle which was not suitable for the trek that the hirers planned to go on. Perhaps some legal people on this forum may be able to answer that one. Cheers, safe travelling and a Merry Christmas to all.
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Reply By: Gramps - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 17:19

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 17:19
"Looking back I should have taken more responsibility in researching and planning the trip and should have asked more questions"

Yep, I'm a great believer in taking responsibility for your own actions or inaction for that matter. Why does it always have to be someone else's responsibilty?

Sorry if that seems a bit harsh. Probably just have to agree to disagree.

Regards
AnswerID: 523176

Follow Up By: Member - Cruiser74 - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 17:32

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 17:32
Fair call Gramps, the reason I put that part in is because I do take responsibility for my actions but hindsight is 20/20. I didn't know any better and I paid a lot of money to hire that vehicle. It is the hirers responsibility to ensure the safety of their customers up to a reasonable point is it not? At least put the correct jack in the vehicle to give them a fighting chance. It's not like I borrowed a mates car and went barrelling down the tracks. All I'm saying is questions should have been asked about my level of experience and what I intended to do with the vehicle. I really don't think that's unreasonable.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 17:42

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 17:42
x 1 Cruiser, especially about the jack.

Cheers
FrankP

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Follow Up By: Gramps - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 17:46

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 17:46
Sorry mate, definitely a case of agreeing to disagree. I think the world has gone mad on 'duty of care' and making others responsible.

If they had of put you through the third degree re your intentions, insisted you took an accreditted 4wd course, first aid course, navigation course, basic mechanics course, survival course, etc etc etc would you still have hired the vehicle from them? I sincerely doubt it.

Regards
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Follow Up By: Member - Cruiser74 - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 17:53

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 17:53
Think you're taking it a bit far mate but I see your point. Funny how you haven't commented on the jack though which was actually the one thing that nearly made us come unstuck. THEIR responsibility to provide suitable and correct basic equipment. I will argue that until the cows come home.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member Andys Adventures - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 18:21

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 18:21
Hi Cruiser 74,
I have a new Triton and when I needed to use the jack it broke (bent), as I was not on level ground, I did however have a plate to support the jack. Asked the dealer and because I used the jack not in accordance with the manufactures instructions it was not covered under warranty. Lucky I had an air jack to get me out of trouble. I have had many cars that did not have the jack the car was sold with and had no problems. Problem was I used the jack out of its working range eg: not on level ground, lesson learnt.
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Follow Up By: Gramps - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 18:37

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 18:37
Mate,

Basically a jack is a jack. The one made for the vehicle could have broken in the same circumstances (maybe it did previously ? ). That's why I thought it was a non-event and not worth commenting on.

Regards
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Follow Up By: Member - Cruiser74 - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 19:20

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 19:20
Fair enough, but I hardly think it's "duty of care gone mad" expecting basic recovery equipment, compressor, tyre repair kit etc and some basic info on how to use them in the event you need to to be included in a 4WD hire vehicle, especially considering the cost of hire. I see your point but don't think it applies here. Agree to disagree it is! Thanks for your comments, it would be boring if we all agreed on everything!

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 23:39

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 23:39
"Duty of care" is a well-proven, legally-enforceable concept, that can be actioned in the courts, and there is no reason to think that this will change anytime in the future.

There is most certainly a duty of care upon a hire company to ensure that they are not letting a greenhorn go into a situation with their hire vehicle, whereby they will be in serious danger, because of a lack of knowledge of conditions the hirer could possibly encounter.

This means that the hirer is obliged to provide equipment suitable for the intended use, and that the hirer provides basic warnings about dangerous situations that a greenhorn would possibly not be aware of. This particularly applies to overseas visitors.

I have no experience of snow or extreme cold - but if I went to a country where such conditions exist and I hired equipment to travel into snow and extreme cold, I would expect equipment designed and fully capable for that use - and I would expect some relevant information and advice from the hire company, about what I would be likely to encounter, and what to be very aware of.

This concept is no different as in the case of setting someone up for a fall, by leaving items or equipment in such a dangerous position or condition, that any reasonable person would see that it was likely that someone who was unaware could be injured.
Leaving the upturned rake in the grass, or the ladder where someone can walk into it in the dark, is typical of this type of situation.

Once the hirer is made aware of the traps and dangers - then if they then wilfully choose to ignore the advice, and get into serious trouble - then I have no problem with the concept of "personal responsibility" in that situation.

This entire concept of making people aware, is no different to teaching your kids about common (and not-so-common) dangers - when you know they do not have the experience, maturity or knowledge to understand those dangers.
In fact, we often continue to teach our kids about many various traps and dangers, even into young adulthood.

If a hire company spends some time getting the hirer fully familiar with the vehicle and the various tricks and traps, and basic bush sense - then they have discharged their duty of care, and the hirer has no comeback, once they have been informed.

I hired a large dual-wheel 6 berth motorhome from one of the leading campervan/motorhome hirers in July 2012, and both myself and my partner were given a 20 min informative video to watch on the operation of every facet of the motorhome - plus we were given a full rundown via another 20 min "walk-around" inspection and information tour of the motorhome, by a company employee - and we were also given a comprehensive folder full of much relevant information relating to driving, road conditions, potential dangers, and many other factors.

I was very pleased with this companys performance in that respect - and I expect it's in the companys interest to make sure that this is done, to try and ensure that their hire vehicles are looked after in a manner that gives them confidence the vehicle will come back in a readily-hire-able condition again.
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Follow Up By: Member - Justin O (QLD) - Wednesday, Dec 18, 2013 at 12:07

Wednesday, Dec 18, 2013 at 12:07
Agreed. I would have thought it would be in the hire companies interest to mitigate any damage to their investments as well as having at least some sort duty of care. You know.... help people occasionally
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Reply By: Phil B (WA) - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 19:39

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 19:39
Hi all,

A similar and yet a different point of view from me.

People don't know what they don't know - if you get my drift. So if you ask can you 4WD and know how to do a recovery? Yes they answer fully believing they do.

I see the main problem as how do we get people 'to know what they don't know'. No amount of telling the Hire Co they have to do this or that or the novice owner of a 4Wd what they should consider will get past this problem in many instances.

How many of us have tried to convince some people to let their tyres down in dunes or say the CSR. Only to be met with fierce resistance or told to 'Go and get F .. urther away or have them comment on your parents marital status.

Their understanding and that of a 'expert' can be poles apart.

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Reply By: Member - Scott M (NSW) - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 20:05

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 20:05
Similar topic came up on another thread recently that got a bit heated, so I decided discretion was the better part of valour.

Whilst I agree on the view that there is no substitute for research, and duty of care can only go so far, I think there's also another risk for the local 4wd community, especially in hiring to overseas travellers (though they're not alone in this).

I think there should some education for visitors around do's and dont's when driving and camping. Specifically around where to drive and not drive, disposal of waste, suitable and not suitable places to camp, etc. etc. I've seen some pretty awful driving, vehicles going on to private property, camp-sites littered with rubbish and toilet waste, camping in no camping zones and other things.

Net result of this will more restrictions and a lesser acceptance of the local 4wd/camping community - you & me. As we all know with regulations, they don't make a distinction between those who do the right thing and those who don't.

I'm not saying the warnings will stop all this behaviour, but we've got to make some attempt to protect our own patch.

My 2 cents worth...............
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 21:57

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 21:57
Most no camping places are well signed. And I dont think most overseas visitors dont have a good idea about doing the right thing wheather its strictly legal or not
A 15 min video could help
As for full revovery gear... would be good but I think the idea is for them not to push it that far.
All sorts hire them. I bought an ex hire one and am still trying to get out the syringes with needles from the nooks and crannys
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Reply By: Member - Michael P (QLD) - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 22:08

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 22:08
Hi,
A friend hired a Tojo 4WD Camper recently in Tassie.
Strict instructions and insurance exclusions NOT to be taken off bitumen roads.
I guess that is one hire companies way of protecting their A-----.
Mike.
AnswerID: 523187

Follow Up By: ben_gv3 - Wednesday, Dec 18, 2013 at 12:32

Wednesday, Dec 18, 2013 at 12:32
Having rented a car in Tassie for a few weeks doing touring how can you NOT take the car off the bitumen. There's so many dirt roads even just going to most tourist attractions.

And a 4WD camper not being able to drive on the dirt???
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Reply By: splits - Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 22:26

Monday, Dec 16, 2013 at 22:26
I remember when I got my drivers license and all the study and practical tests associated with it. A few years later I was given an Army license after driving a left hand drive 6x6 Diamond T wrecker through the streets of Albury on a Saturday morning. After all of that I still had to do another test to get a motor cycle license.

Maybe the answer to this problem is to introduce a national training course covering mountain and desert driving for anyone taking a 4wd into those type of off road conditions. Your ordinary license would then have a 4wd endorsement added to it.

If you don't use your car in off road conditions, then you should not be required to do the course. If you do go into the rough stuff and are caught without the endorsement, then you should be in big and expensive trouble.

This should also apply to tourists and it probably already does in some parts of the world, if not in four wheel driving then other areas. If, for example, I wanted to build a 250 mph salt lake racing car and take it Bonneville in the US, I would be surprised if the US organisers did not expect me to either obtain a license through our own salt lake racing association or get one in the US. It should be no different for a tourist wanting to go bush in a 4WD here.
AnswerID: 523188

Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Tuesday, Dec 17, 2013 at 07:17

Tuesday, Dec 17, 2013 at 07:17
Don't mind the national driving course. Two minds about it though.

Offroad:
This is awkward. How are you going to judge, specify or police whether a car goes off road or not. And then we have to ask, "What is off road?". Just onto the grass in the front yard could be called "off road". And then you have places like Mt Walker where 90% of 4WD drivers and their cars couldn't even negotiate the first 50 meters.

Looks:
What does an off road car look like. Scratches - yes we have plenty of pinstriping. Extra driving and fog lights - dont have them. Big tyres - don't have them. A suspension or body lift - none here. Do we go bush. Yep, and to all manner of deserts and high country. So you can't go by looks.

Log books:
They can be falsified.

Testemonials
They can also be false.

Bit hard mate. But I must agree that a lot of cars, yes and their drivers, that go off road - shouldn't go anywhere further off road than the front lawn. Like a Subaru that kept on having troubles in front of us. We had to extract him three times before he finally took our advice (and his wife's) and turned around. No clearance and kept on getting hung up. Would have loved to overtake and leave him and pick him up on the return about 30 minutes later. Just imagine what his wife would have said. Good on her.

Couldn't resist this photo. This wasn't mine but similar. We had the mechanics booth on the rear, a couple of vices on the front bar and bigger rubber.

Our course was a whole month including two week bush both flat terrian and the high country. We did the full operators (jib as well) course including basic tracked and wheeled recovery. No Centurion recoverys though, just the small engineers plant stuff. What a beast.

Phil

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Reply By: splits - Tuesday, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:46

Tuesday, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:46
Thanks for the photo of the two door, five on the floor, closed cab pickup. We had one at Bandania and it brings back a lot of memories.

A 4wd licence endorsement would have to be simple with no variations. "Off road" would be any unsealed road that is not considered a 2wd road used regularly by local people or tourists. An example in the Outback would be the Great Central Road. You would not need an endorsement for that but you would if you turned off it and went down the Connie Sue. There are also countless 2wd dirt roads in mountain areas with strictly 4wd only tracks running off them.

You could not force all 4wd drivers to undergo training. Many do nothing but use the car to tow a boat or horse float etc. over the same sealed roads each weekend. The scheme would have to be based on reducing the number of accidents and rescues and, based on existing statistics, it would not be hard to workout the type of tracks, roads or even entire National Parks that would have to be covered.

As for the type of cars: it should be based on the road, not the cars. It should not matter whether you are found on a road like the Canning for example in a Landcruiser or a Cadillac, you would need the endorsement.
AnswerID: 523203

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