DIY repairs and servicing

Submitted: Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 07:54
ThreadID: 107703 Views:4556 Replies:14 FollowUps:76
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I started this thread as I didn't want another thread to go off track.

This is a quote from that thread, which I got quite a laugh out off. My local Ford dealer quoted this as well a few times. I will explain later in the thread. Now here is the quote

READ" Remember warranties are void if the vehicle has been serviced or worked on by a qualified mechanic or a business not authorised to carry out repairs or maintenance."

SHOULD OF READ "Remember warranties are void if the vehicle has been serviced or worked on by an unqualified person or a business not authorised to carry out repairs or maintenance."

Here is the list off qualified business failures on my new vehicle.

The first business is a very large 4wd accessory maker and fitter and here are the qualified stuff ups.

Bullbar bolts left loose, those qualified should learn to swing on spanners. Wheel nuts done up with a 12 sided socket destroying them to the point. I had to hammer a 6 sided socket on tho undo them. Centre bearing housing not done up incorrectly allowing it to turn out of alignment. Long range tank, Wiring wrapped around fuel lines, I had to cut the wiring and redo it in an unqualified tradesman like manner.

Snorkel fitted by another well known large 4wd accessory maker and fitter. Had to reseal around inlet into air filter housing. It was not sealed at all where you couldn't see underneath making the snorkel useless.

Now I will move onto the dealers.

First dealer did 15000k service. Air filter was not put back into the housing properly. The filter has a locating tit and that needs to go into it's correct location. How did I know they had touched the filter, it had greasy paw prints on it. You would think the Ford trained professional would know this. Oil left all over the chassis rail and gearbox mount, from the oil change.

Second dealer. They looked at an electrical item and said, yes it will have to replaced be under warranty. I get home and look under the bonnet and here is the unfused end of my anderson plug cable hanging in mid air waiting to start a fire. It had been pulled out of the circuit breaker.

4 months later the part arrives and I said I will fit it myself because I have no faith in their work. Well it started. I got the, you will void your engine warranty completely if there are any problems spiel, they even made it sound like I was in the wrong.
Well they fitted it and the first thing I did was walk out to the vehicle and lift the bonnet. Guess what! 2 cables left off the battery and one was my brake controller feed cable.

So guess I better leave it to the certified trained professional. LOL.
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Reply By: olcoolone - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 09:09

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 09:09
This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Inappropriate Rule .

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AnswerID: 532207

Reply By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 10:36

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 10:36
I reckon sometimes that you would get better service from a good qualified, keen and experienced mechanic/engineer than from the local dealers etc. You may get the cleaner, or a "not so keen" appy, changing the oil at a dealers and he forgot to clean the metal shavings off the drain plug, that he dropped in the dirt, before putting it back on and then didn't tighten it enough. The competent one wouldn't do that.

I don't know the "other" thread and couldn't be bothered looking for it. I hope that this is the type of response that you wanted.

Over 46 years in electronics etc, I did many tertiary level courses and studies in both digital and analogue fields, yet I am not qualified to even fix my own TV. I do fix it though and now carry the warranty myself. At least I know that it will work and that I haven't been cheated. Maybe the next TV, we are still using our analogue one, I may give up the soldering iron. The surface mount technology is getting too small and compact for my eyes and not as steady hands.

AnswerID: 532215

Reply By: Robin Miller - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 10:48

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 10:48
Funny you should post that Shaker - just last night one of my friends who recently brought the most perfect 100 series diesel is getting ready for a trip and drove round to show me his brand new Cooper STT knock off chinese tyres which were 1/2 the price of the ST=Maxx I reccomended and boy did they look like and sound like they were 1/2 the price , but also got a snorkel fitted by an accessory suppier in Canterbury rd Bayswater (vic).

Anyway on the way round he noticed something unusual , the air filter restriction light came on under hard acceleration.
Now snorkels increase restriction so I assumed his filter was dirty and the snorkel tipped the sensor over the edge.
So we blew out the filter which didn't help , noticing on the way that one of the air filtercover clips hadn't been re-clipped.

So took out filter and did another run which didn't help either.

In process we noticed a little rubber hose beside the filter hadn't been re-fitted.
This was the problem and car was taken back and issues pointed out !

I sort of wondered where you would stand if he had gone through a water crossing on the way and water got into engine !

Robin Miller

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AnswerID: 532217

Follow Up By: Shaker - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 17:14

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 17:14
I don't think I said anything!

FollowupID: 815439

Reply By: The Bantam - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 11:41

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 11:41
I agree ..the standard of work these days is so very variable..there are a very few business out there who are prepared to do what it takes to do a good job.....there are also a lot of business out there who would not know a good job it ot bit em on the @R$3.

So much these days is baught and sold on price and done to wring the maximum amount of profit absolutly possible out of the customer.

As for "qualifed"...yeh well that may be part of the much of the work in the big dealers and high margin aftermarket business is done by, apprentices, labouers, " lubrication technicians", "tyre fitters", trades assitants and unqualified mugs off the street that will work cheap.

Then there is the training no longer accomodates are either "competent" or "not yet competent".
The is no acknoledgment that this mug may never get it and there is no reward for extra effort.

Its a sad state of affairs......but if you want to see realy top shelf work in any field of endevour these wont find it in the paid trades...only the amateurs have the time and the inclination.

AnswerID: 532221

Follow Up By: Shaker - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 17:19

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 17:19
Have you worked for a dealership, or is it just another case of hearsay?
I worked for several dealer ships over almost 20 years & didn't see it happening.

My worst experiences have been from four wheel drive workshops, by far!

FollowupID: 815441

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 18:58

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 18:58
Yes I have worked in and around dealerships.

Of course you did not see it happening... neither did most of the customers.

Why can the local dealership that serviced my wifes RAV read a tyre plackard and inflate the tyres accordingly instead of 15PSI simple can that be.

Why did the three different dealershops that serviced my second hand hilux, before I baught it, not drain the oil in the front diff once in 260 000 + Km......I know none of them did.....the paint was in tact on the drain plug and the oil was black.

There are plenty of cases that are fact.....all to frequent fact.

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Follow Up By: Shaker - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 21:35

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 21:35
I was General Manager of a dealership for 8 years, nothing happened that I didn't know about!
No, we weren't perfect, show me any human controlled institution that is, but we happily rectified any of our mistakes.

What was your involvement with dealerships Bantam, you seem to be an expert on most issues here?
FollowupID: 815452

Follow Up By: Ross M - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 10:13

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 10:13
:Lots of things happen in dealerships which the manager know nothing about. To believe otherwise is a tad delusional.

I spoke to a manager of a dealership and told how I found MANY vehicles from his dealership which HADN'T had all their driveline oils changed, some for over 20,000km from new. He was surprised or appeared to be at least. He didn't like someone else finding out the truth or in fact knowing the truth.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 10:16

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 10:16
In times past I worked for a couple of accessory installation companies..that took me into a hell of a lot of dealerships on a daily basis.
At other times I have done a variety technical work around various dealerships, auto auction houses and insurance impounds.

I am one of those people who curculates widely, and comes into contact with a lot of people and a lot of situations and I talk to people.

There is a range of mechanics, current and former dealers, auctioneers, detailers, auto electricians, accessory fitters, machinists and auto engineers among my relatives, friends, customers and aquantances.

I and most of my friends are serial used car owners who work on their own cars.

You talk about heasay.....the evidence is there to be seen.

When the log book has been stamped and should not see black diff oil and uncracked drain plugs when that has been listed on the schedule.....many people have testified to finding this very issue on 4wd forums.

When an independent mechanic starts to do services on a dealer serviced, log book stamped vehicle...he knows what has been going on in the past.

When an independent workshop is asked to rectify or reinstall stuff that came back from the dealer not working..that is not hearsay.

When a particular independent workshop reguraly gets work to solve relativly straight forward problems the dealers can not..that is not hearsay.

When a former factory trained mechanic has to lean on a dealer to get something fixed under warranty...that is not heasay.

When a particular dealer has a long term reputation for short cutting servicing...and there are multiple witnesses to the fact...that is not hearsay.

When one dealer employee after another tells you straight faced about the pressure to push the work thru...that is not hearsay.

When you wait for a vehicle and it takes them less than a hour to do a $200 service.....or you wait much longer but you see the vehicle driven in and out of the workshop in less than 30 minutes.

You wonder what you actually got for you money and if they did in fact check all those things on the schedule or just tick & flicked em.

That is not hearsay.

Shaker may have been in a reasonably conciencious dealer ( they do exist) for 20 years...and good luck to you.

But they most certainly are not all like that.

There are certain towns and localities where the reputation of the local dealer is testified to by the presence or absence of that particular brand in the area.

There are certain locations where a dealer with a good rep has people driving significant distances and past other dealers to obtain good service.

As I say the standard of work is so variable......there is some good work done by good people...but there is also a hell of a lot of apauling work going on.

FollowupID: 815469

Follow Up By: Shaker - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 22:09

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 22:09
I had a client threaten to bad mouth us all over our relatively small town, because I told him a broken headlight wasn't covered under warranty!
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Reply By: Ross M - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 12:43

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 12:43
That is possibly why people call them Fraud dealers. You always get the bluff about warranty. They don't like their work being the subject of a Fair Trading claim but aren't smart enough to avoid a claim.

That standard of work is quite normal, I have often mentioned about professional places not doing it all correctly, even simple things.

If they did good work then that would be surprising.
AnswerID: 532224

Follow Up By: bigcol - Monday, May 12, 2014 at 09:28

Monday, May 12, 2014 at 09:28
So it's only the Ford dealers hey.

The reputation of many brands have been tarnished by dealers.

Locally there was a facebook campaign against a Hyundai dealer that also sells Holdens.

I also know plenty of others that bypass the Toyota dealer in the area.

How about the ZD30 dramas and the responses from the dealers with that.

Another mate drives straight past the local Holden dealer but won't go there.

It's also why I drive 60km and past 3 separate Mitsubishi dealers to get my ute serviced

Grow up
FollowupID: 815571

Reply By: John and Regina M - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 13:24

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 13:24
I guess if you don't trust dealers and tradespeople to do the job efficiently and properly u can always do it yourself. Good luck with and adiós to safe motoring for the future.

Being a tradesman with almost 40 years experience I no longer want to have to deal with the many forms of armchair experts and forum experienced wankers that seem to have nothing better to do than whinge and complain about lack of this or that.

It's tough being in business and trying to make a buck. Yes there are shoddy tradespeople out there but there are many more crappy home mechanics and shiny bums.
AnswerID: 532225

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 14:50

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 14:50
Problem is that 'once upon a time' there were people called Mechanics who learned their craft from watching and learning from their senior /elders who had learned the craft from their senior /elders and all took pride in their craft ,,,, Now in the present where the almighty $$$$ rules the 'learning' is done without the supervision of those who went before but from a 'service supervisor' who generally has not touched a spanner and got the 'required qualification' simply by reading a text book and is capable of generating a large profit thru charging $130 per hr by utilising a 1st yr apprentice on $9.50 per hr…….
FollowupID: 815430

Follow Up By: Member - mechpete - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 15:06

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 15:06
well spoken John an Regina
with all the arm chair experts on this forum .how can there be so many people with vehicle problems . Some of the comments on here are laughable , the one above , good example , all my 42yrs in the trade , don,t know anyone who got a Qualification from a text book
FollowupID: 815432

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 15:34

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 15:34
Yes there are good and bad in every profession, the trick is to find the good ones and avoid the bad ones. You often hear of the string of complaints about being not happy with what the dealer has done and yet they continue to use them. If their work is not up to scratch don't use them, I am on one of those capped price cheap service deals with my vehicle, only used them once and not happy with the outcome so prefer to pay double with a good private mechanic and know my vehicle is correctly maintained.

FollowupID: 815434

Follow Up By: Slow one - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 16:20

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 16:20
Johnny boy,
You must know me well. I have never, ever worked in an office sunshine and I have always done my own repairs on vehicles.

Just pointing out the warranty issue and some very, very poor workmanship.

Have a nice day and don't wear out your hand.
FollowupID: 815435

Follow Up By: John and Regina M - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 17:15

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 17:15
A childish response slow one.
FollowupID: 815440

Follow Up By: Bigfish - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 17:22

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 17:22
Johnny sound like a wanker yourself...another negative don't want to deal with armchair wankers and yet here you are gobbing off again ....didn't take long for a thread to turn sour once the usual know all crew jump in...
FollowupID: 815442

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 17:31

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 17:31
Johny precious,
Don’t dish it out if you can’t take it - you're one of the first to whinge at others.
I’ve seen TV docos exposing brake service companies where they put the car on a hoist, just blow everything clean with compressed air but charged for a complete service.
In my younger days I knew a shoddy mechanic who serviced air compressors.
All he did was clean them down and give them a coat of paint before returning them to the mining company - charging them for taking the head off and inspecting for wear. He boasted “nothing ever goes wrong with an air compressor”.

My 4WD was dealer serviced since new. I took it to my private mechanic when the warranty ran out. He showed me evidence that the diesel fuel water accumulator had never been emptied – it was a scheduled service item.
There are some shonks out there.
FollowupID: 815443

Follow Up By: John and Regina M - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 19:33

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 19:33
Armchair forum experts and shiny bum technicians. Good luck.
FollowupID: 815446

Follow Up By: Slow one - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 20:05

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 20:05
I think you better get Regina to write your material sunshine. Boo Hoo
FollowupID: 815447

Follow Up By: Ross M - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 20:41

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 20:41
Congratulations John &
You have once again cast judgement on all the people who you have never met or know of their experience and capabilities.

Auto electrics is a limited field and is only one type of system in a motor vehicle.
A GOOD mechanic has to know ALL of them and in considerable depth of scientific principles and how they operate.

My qualification meant I had to know 14 different subject/system areas, in both theoretical and practical. Can still make a mistake though, but try not to at all times.
My qualification saw 4 out of 44 actually gain the qualification.
Many of them should also have been "Senior" mechanic rated to be able to attempt the above 2 day examination. To pass you had to gain at least 75% of all theoretical and practical abilities in EVERY system/subject and practical examination/test in order to pass.
(Auto elecs do not have to do anything like that.)

The real ratios. are 1 :11
That is 10, NOT qualified and continue to work in the trade.
That means 1 Does qualify and continues to work in the trade.

And they are the ones regarded as mechanics and not the unskilled/semiskilled, or apprentices in training, who work in dealerships, of which there are MANY.

Not a good ratio for the customer who is looking for a good mechanic.

Slow One has realized this and makes an appropriate comment.
FollowupID: 815449

Follow Up By: Shaker - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 21:30

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 21:30
I've seen plumbers & electricians exposed by under cover surveillance too, I expect there are a few here, any care to comment?

FollowupID: 815451

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 10:48

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 10:48
The qld government realsied that a very large proportion of experienced and licenced electricians, did not know their business.

They actually conducted surveys.
In particular
Many electricains did not understand the MEN earthing system.
Many electriians where not up to date on current reguations and standards.
Many electricians could not save a mates life that had had an electric shock.


the licencing system went from licenced for life to 5 year renewal..subject to either an on line exam or a skills maintenence course AND a current CPR certificate.

Still...the standard of electrical work has suffered since self inspection was introduced.

There are still, a lot of older electricians out there who are not up to date...they get younger electricans or apprentices to sit the on line exam for them or help them pass and persist unusing the old yellow AS3000 from 1991, becuase they do not understand the current version.

Back in the 90's, it was prtetty well normal that every electrician carried a copy of AS3000....very commonly sat on the dash of the contained most of what an electricain needed to know.......back then the rules cost about $50.
Now the standards have been expanded and made more complicated and far more expensive.

A basic minimum set of standards that an electrician needs costs about $1000.
As a result...I have not seen an electrican with the standarcd in their hand on a job site or sitting on the dash of his van for ages.

The QLD law states that all live work must have an individually written risk assessment prior to commencement......but there are plenty of electricans out there who remain in the habit of working on live circuits because they are too lazy to find out where it is fed and turning off.

I could go on at length about what is common practice and some of the things I have seen that would frighten the Bjesus out of most people.

The legeslation has got a hell of a lot stricyter and the penalties have skrocketed....but the likleyhood of getting caught is so very low...the general electrical community has go very slack and careless.

Just a typical examle of the parlous state of affairs in all the trades these days.

AND this aint from the armchair...this is from working with these guys and seeing this on the job site.

FollowupID: 815472

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 12:21

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 12:21
Bantam - you amaze me.
I can’t understand why you, as an unqualified electrician, rant on so much about fully licensed electricians being incompetent.
FollowupID: 815483

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 16:34

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 16:34
That is because I am not an "unqualified electrician".
I am a licenced electrical worker and contractor, just not an "electrician".

In most other countries I would hold a full electrical ticket by now.....but the Australian electrical training and licencing system provides me no mechanism for gaining a full electrical ticket.

I have to know a hell of a lot of what is required By a full ticket sparky, and then a hell of a lot more besides, I have to carry the same insurance as a full ticket sparky, and I bear the same responsibilities under the act as a full ticket sparky.

I hold more technical tickets than most full ticket sparkies.

For decades I have had to instruct electricians and know their business as well as my own.

I have by necessity had to know certain boundries and be able to quote chapter and verse, to prove that certain work I do, is my right with my qualifications and licences and that it is not "electricians work".
AND how to arrange installations so work is not "electricians work".

I install and maintain equipment and cabling right alongside electrical every day

I find it disturbing when I have full ticket sparkies come to me, and ask questions, because I know their rules and regulations better than they do.

I find it even more disturbing when I see work and work methods that are plainly and obvioulsy nothing like compliant.

I find it even more disturbing again when certain electricians tell me to my face that they know what they are doing is not compliant and they that don't care and they will do it how they see fit.

The underpinning principles of regulated electrical work are pretty universal and straight forward they apply and should be known just as well by an allied electrical worker like myself and a full open ticket electrician.

FollowupID: 815505

Follow Up By: Slow one - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 17:01

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 17:01
why can't you get a ticket. I have seen many adults do it through the system.

Do the blocks and practical + the documentation and RPL and there should be no problems, when you are deemed competent and signed off, you get that ticket.

Good crane driver mate in his late 40's has just been signed off as a fitter, under the same Queensland guidelines.
FollowupID: 815508

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 17:34

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 17:34
Bantam your quote
“but the Australian electrical training and licencing system provides me no mechanism for gaining a full electrical ticket”
That’s rubbish Bantam – you can do an adult apprenticeship if you can find someone to take you on – it’s quite common.
I don’t know about Qld but in WA you would be classed as unlicensed, unqualified, a restricted license holder or something less than a fully qualified electrician.
FollowupID: 815510

Follow Up By: Slow one - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 18:11

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 18:11
Queensland is the same as WA.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 18:15

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 18:15
There is one way and one way only to get a full electrical ticket in Australia and that is to serve an aprenticship....even if you are a qualified electrical engineer.
There is no trade test or RPL outside of that very narrow entry point.

A freind of mine that is about a year older than me who started as a railway apprentice about a year earlier than me now teaches and assesses electrical subjects at TAFE after over 30 years in the railways.

He ran me thru the whole process and it is, in theory, theory.
Knowing my experience and what I am capable of with RPL and accelerated learning I should have been able to knock over the apprenticship in 2 years. If and only if the employer was pushing the shedule.

A few years ago I gave it a red hot go, looking to get someone respectable to apprentice me.....I was even prepared to tolerate apprentce wages for a few years.

But there are a hell of a lot of people in my position with the same idea. Lots of them much younger than me. I've sat in the trade tests and eyeballed them at the interviews....and I got interviews.

Then there is the issue of group training.....there are very few employers who actually employ apprentices directly....the majority outside the large institutional companies are employed by group training organisations......their idea of a mature age apprentice is 25.....if you are over 40 you will be older than the managers in the group training companies....One group training office I walked into, I was old enough to be the father of everybody in the office.....and all women.....a midlle aged man goes over in a situation like a lead baloon........yeh been there...their profits revolve arround supplying cheap subsidised labour.....they realy are only interersted in young kids unless you can make a strong case or have a sponsor and you are under 30.

No there is no practical way a middle aged person can get a full electrical ticket regardless of their experience or knoweledge.

When I turned 50, I decided that it simply was not going to happen.

FollowupID: 815515

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 18:39

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 18:39

Bantam your quote
“but the Australian electrical training and licencing system provides me no mechanism for gaining a full electrical ticket”
That’s rubbish Bantam – you can do an adult apprenticeship if you can find someone to take you on – it’s quite common.
I don’t know about Qld but in WA you would be classed as unlicensed, unqualified, a restricted license holder or something less than a fully qualified electrician.

I don't live in WA where anybody who turns up every day straight and sober is considered a good worker.
Yeh I've got mates working over there....they tell me how it is that is why they go there.

The government takes my money and issues me paperwork so I must be licenced.

As far as qualified......mate....people have been trying to tell me and other people like me we are inferiour to full ticket electricians for decades.......sorry mate it cuts no ice with me...I know I am better and more extensivly trained and smarter than most electricians.

My only regret is that I did not know about the restrictive trade practice that is the electrical regulatory system when I was 17.

If I did I would have got me an electrical apprenticship at all cost and my feet would now be firmly placed an the road paved with gold that is the electrical regulatory system career path..

A system run by and in the interests of the large electrical companies.

Appart from that can go and drop on your head.

FollowupID: 815516

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 18:46

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 18:46

I can appreciate your exasperation with the situation of attaining electrical licensing. You clearly have applied yourself to the objective and become totally frustrated. Bureaucracy can be so defeating. It was so much easier in my day.
I am sorry that I can provide no solution for you other than to make the best of your present career path which I presume is related to communications/data.
Sincerely, good luck mate.

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FollowupID: 815518

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 18:49

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 18:49
OH...if there are electricians that know their business, have the aptitude and can give a damn...I have no beef with will know what I am on about.

I know a few....a very few...electricians who realy know their business.......they confirm exactly what I say...and the standard in the industry frustrats them no end.

There are plenty of electricians out there, where the only reason they are not plumbers is they passed the optical colour test.

Its just a job and they are in it for the money

FollowupID: 815519

Follow Up By: Slow one - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 19:01

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 19:01
you are correct about the adult apprenticeship, one thing though, they will recognise prior learning that then shortens the apprenticeship, and that can be by quite a bit. So you can get a ticket as long as someone will indenture you. Linesmen often do it.

So stop feeling sorry for yourself and go do it. You were the one that stuffed up when you were young. Most of us choose our path in life and can change that, if we have the brains and want it badly enough.

Guess you don't remember when electricians got way less than brickies labourers, truck drivers and many other tradesmen, and that was probably when you were around 17. You most likely went for the bucks me thinks, as apprentices got way less pay.

Life is a bitch sometimes, but we make our own destiny. Even if we have been dropped on our heads.

FollowupID: 815520

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 19:07

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 19:07
Thanks Alan.
I've gone back to doing what I know best after a few of years doing other things.

These days fortunately I am being paid fairly well and working as many hours as I can tolerate.

Yes these days i would be classed as a communications technician (my actual first qualification), but the work is much broader than that.

what I do ranges from basic phones and intercoms, data, large antenna networks, large sound systems, av systems, thru to the lower end of television boradcasting.

we do pretty well anything the clients electricians wont.

We have just landed a refit on the sunshine coast.

FollowupID: 815522

Follow Up By: Slow one - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 19:16

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 19:16
if you have gone back to knowing what you know best, and you are qualified, you should then know that communications techs are in big demand in mining industry, due to the advent of remotely controlled machinery.

There is the opening, all you have to do is go and sell yourself.
FollowupID: 815523

Follow Up By: mikehzz - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 20:21

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 20:21
"There is the opening, all you have to do is sell yourself"......err....umm...sorry, I fell off my chair...that's good advice for a number of professions. :-)
FollowupID: 815529

Follow Up By: ModSquad - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 22:03

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 22:03
4x4, travel and camping please people. Lets keep it relevant to the core topics of the site.


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Reply By: bob&loz - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 16:41

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 16:41
The last five new vehicles in our family have not even been into a dealer for the free first service. I do everything myself. Best way to avoid warranty work is to not let them near it in the first place.
AnswerID: 532228

Follow Up By: Slow one - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 17:01

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 17:01
I couldn't agree more. This the first new vehicle I have owned and thought I would do all the right things. Boy was I wrong.

One of the big problems with new vehicles is, if you don't use them you don't get any software updates.

I just had a shed slab poured and the concreter has the same vehicle, he has had similar problems from the dealer regarding workmanship.

So far I have been accused of being a shinny bum expert amateur that uses his hand a lot. Ha Ha. This is in spite of spending all my working life in, around and under big noisy things.

FollowupID: 815437

Reply By: Member - Scott M (NSW) - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 20:02

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 20:02
Trying a bit of objectivity here - I suspect that neither John or Slow one are wrong. I suspect the real issue here is the "authorised dealer" system where the vehicle sellers try every trick in the book to get the mug punter to believe the vehicle has to be serviced by the dealer workshop. This where the real $$ and mark-ups are made to try and off-set the the mark downs on selling the vehicle. Cutting corners makes $$ - not all dealers are crook, but I suspect there is a lot off pressure to make the margins up including using cheaper labour and grossly marked up parts & spares.

As far as warranty is concerned, the only an "authorised dealer" is a crock of sh1t. As long as the mechanic is qualified, then warranty ISN'T voided.

I have a mechanic I've used for years in Sydney to service my cars and trust implicitly. He works out of a low cost garage set up and he's qualified to service most major European brands. He regularly gets new customers very unhappy about the cost and quality of the services they get from the major dealerships on the North Shore & Eastern suburbs. He's quite often shown me jobs in his workshop where the customer has been charged for replacement parts and the original item is still in the vehicle - he can do the same jobs for 30 % of the cost from the majors and still make a reasonable profit. If you saw some of the overcharging that goes on, it'd curl your hair.

I agree John & R, people shouldn't bag qualified mechanics, there's still plenty of honest ones out there and I always prefer someone qualified to do my work. But honestly, some of the major dealers should be taken to the beak and charged with fraud.
AnswerID: 532231

Follow Up By: Ross M - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 21:46

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 21:46
Scott M
I know of one dealer, who is being taken to " the beak" as you say, and it is definitely fraud on quite a large scale, with multiple vehicles being involved. Same dealer has been in Fair Trading/NCAT more times than they have had hot dinners. Almost a weekly booking, perhaps a seasons ticket would be in order.
Both mechanical repair, severe trading law and registration law violations and financial deception too, just for good measure.

On a more pleasant note,
There are some good mechanics and also some honest ones who have a real"feel for engines" (and not a feel for what John & was referring to), they are in the minority though.
FollowupID: 815454

Reply By: olcoolone - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 22:07

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 22:07
Have to agree with John on this one and yes it does always seen people on this forum love bagging people with trade qualifications and think anyone with trade qualifications are ripping them off and not doing the work correctly.

Five things......

firstly..........Yes I do have qualifications across a few fields and I do own my own successful business operating two workshops and a fleet of field service vehicles, the range of vehicles we work on is every thing from mum and dads in the old and new cars, government fleet, heavy transport, earthmoving and mining..... The mum and dad type customers relate to about 15% of our work through our workshops ( a small percentage and I'll get to why soon) and we don't offer mum and dads type customers field service, the others are spread evenly.

We look after many medium to large corporate bodies including service work for overseas manufactures when new equipment is sold in Australia, 75% of our customers we have had for when we started 15 years ago.

Secondly...... The work coming out of dealerships is of a very low standard and they are the biggest employer of apprentices so this problem is not going to go away soon, chances are it will get worse.

Profit on new vehicle and used vehicle sales is at a low that hasn't been seen for over 30 years with many dealerships struggling. The way they can make good money is by servicing, repairs and non genuine consumables and spare parts, the way they get this is by employing apprentices and non qualified personnel to do routine stuff...... Remember they get good kick backs from the government and recruitment agencies for employing apprentices and people who find it hard to get work or have social issues (cheap rates).

Fixed price servicing was introduced to drive up profits for struggling dealerships, they still get paid by the manufacture even if the vehicle doesn't get serviced by them.

Running a dealership is a big outlay with stringent guidelines on size, equipment, staff, presentation and stock holding...... There is talk that up to 55% of all Holden dealer ships will close in the next 3-4 years

Dealerships have to make a good profit somehow and by using apprentices and ridiculous time schedules they can do it.

Thirdly........ Quality and knowledge are two things that are missing in many trades these days, when an apprentice goes through trade school they have to complete a set number of subjects and they are allocated X amount of hours per subject to learn the basics...... Up to 30% of this time per subject can be safety related.

The onus has been placed on the employer to do the rest of the hard core training with trade schools only offering the basics........ Trade schools get paid by the government and the government don't want to pay for better training, the number of highly regarded and skilled teachers who have decided to get out of teaching due the the limitations placed on them due to cost restraints has escalated over the last 8 years.

Sure there are some outstanding students but they are getting few and far between...... Too many recruitment companies including some industry based organisations reaping big money off the government for student placement........ It's getting to the stage where students are getting placed with no real interest in what they are doing and can't wait to finish there contacted trade so the can get out of the industry and do something they enjoy...... They have no passion, no drive and get no enjoyment in what they are doing...... It's only a fill gap job for many.

Luckily there are a few private organisations who are starting to offer advanced training to apprentices and trade people but like most thing like this enrolment is limited and costly.

fourthly......... What people want to pay and expect in terms of quality and function are related very closely........but for the wrong reasons.

98% of mum and dad customers only want to know how much it is going to cost, they don't care on the quality (they think everyone does high quality work, use high quality parts and it's done by suitably qualified people who take pride in what they do....only the price is different and of course profit). Unfortunately the other 2 % who think different and are willing to pay for quality and care don,t make the money and pay the bills for many businesses.

The number of calls we get each week from mum and dad type customer where price is everything....... They don't want to know the ins and outs and why we might be more expensive...... All they care about is getting it cheaper then the last place they called.

This is something many don't see or think about unless there are in a service orientated business them selves.

This is one reason why we don't do more mum and dad type work, there is simply no money in it for use to do it properly to a high standard using quality parts and equipment...... It takes use about 3-4 hours to do a brake controller in a late model vehicle, there are places doing it in 1 - 1.5 hours.

Most business cater for the masses just to survive and employ people who don't give a dam or care what they are doing.

The mum and dad type customers we do do work for are the ones we make good money from and they get a high quality job and parts with Australia wide warrant on the workmanship and parts....... Hence why most of our work is is heavy vehicle based.

So really it's the customer who has driven most business the take on a low quality approach....... If they charged you $600 a $800 for a service or that bull bar and driving lights cost $1600 to fit there would be an outcry of being ripped off....... You can't win.

Most businesses who are good in what they do have moved on into a market segment where pride, quality and customer service are warranted but at a premium price all because the could not do the standard they wanter to.

And finally the difference in work from qualified people and the DIY brigade...... We see maybe 2 out of every 10 jobs done by a qualified person below standard where by we see 7 out of every 10 jobs done by a DIYer below standard.

This is something I know I'm going to get abused on but it's true....... Remember what you see is only a limited number of vehicles compared to what we see.

The internet and Google has increased the number of experts and professional engineers 10,000 fold.

And we have engineered a bunch of tight a....... Who don't want to pay a far price.

And one parting thing SLOW ONE.........

Why did you take what I said out of context and twisted it around, the original post it was taken from was not about poor professional service or quality of workmanship....... It was to do with people not in the know doing work they don't understand RE:- letting the oil drain for more then 10 minutes on the new Ranger/BT-50

AnswerID: 532236

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 22:39

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 22:39
Hi Olcoolone
Your quote
“Yes I do have qualifications across a few fields and I do own my own successful business operating two workshops and a fleet of field service vehicles”
Whoopee do – I am suitably impressed.
I could tell you about my investments and qualifications - but really, who cares.
Everyone is anonymous on the internet – you could be a Nigerian transvestite for all we know.
FollowupID: 815457

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 23:15

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 23:15
Yeap I would of expected nothing more then a brain dead smart ass non contributing remark from someone like yourself.

If this is the calibre of EO forum uses it's time for me to move on and wish everyone the best, this site is getting so pedantic with that much in fighting and a handful of people who own this site..... Well think they think they do

This site is reaching new low in standards.

I take your remark as offensive!
FollowupID: 815458

Follow Up By: Slow one - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 06:34

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 06:34

I actually didn't twist your words but I may have been wrong in posting the exact quote.

What hit a nerve was the reference to certified workshops and warranties, and the dealers ramming threats and warranties down my throat.

To start with none of the dealers in this town are struggling.

Now in reference to my vehicle. The price was quoted at the very large and supposably reputable 4wd accessory establishment. I didn't pressure them about price or time, in fact I left the vehicle with them for a week with the words "I just want it done once and right" Well, this DIY person was the one who found all the faults and the faults were on everything the company had touched. It is up to the management to make sure there workmanship is up to scratch, no excuses about price or who is doing the work. There words were. You were unlucky.

As for the dealer, they had the attitude which was all about threats and warranty voiding. Their workmanship was also abysmal and down right dangerous in the sense of the unfused 16sq mm cable left floating in mid air with the REAL risk of starting a fire + the brake control feed being left off. They worked on it twice, and both times there were serious stupid faults. Again it is management who are not controlling the workforce and not the unsupervising apprentices.

In the case of the air filter, there is a real possibility of a dusted motor. Guess what, they would have denied they had caused the problem, and blame someone else.

Even the installation of the accessory by the dealer would void warranty as it was not connected to the correct ford earth point.

You seem to see it as an attack on tradesman. It is the account of what has happened, and if the blame lies with tradespeople or management, then so be it.

"Dennis Ellery", You must be a clairvoyant, how did you know I was a trench coat wearing Nigerian transvestite. Good skills.

FollowupID: 815459

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 11:07

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 11:07
Oldcool mate...good on least someone is trying to keep the stsndard up.

As far as the qualified to unqualified ratios.

It is a pretty sad inditement that you are seeing a 20% failure rate of jobs from people who should know better.

As far as DIY workers.....the problem is you would not see any of the good DIY work from those who have made it their business to know what they are cause it does not fail and wont need your help.

There are a hell of a lot of people out there doing their own work...and that is nothing new.

It is also nothing new that there are plenty of rough as guts DIYers out there...and they know it..their mates know it.....we who come across their mistakes certainly do.

But there is a massive gulf between the standard or work by DIYers working beyond their care or limits and those who should know better.


FollowupID: 815474

Follow Up By: Mick O - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 11:33

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 11:33
I don’t usually wade into these arguments but I must say that your response (Olcoolone) is probably one of the best considered I’ve seen in quite a while and certainly paints a picture from a small business perspective. You also outline your experience and qualifications which provides credibility to the points you make and something that is required due to the unfortunate and un-needed nature of some responses, responses that add absolutely nothing to the debate what so ever.

I am not in small business nor do I have any trade qualifications. I’m probably what one of our resident red-raggers calls a “shiny bum”. I do try and do some minor works here and there on my vehicle but will be the first to admit that given my lack of skills, I prefer to have suitably qualified tradespeople do those things for me. As I don’t waste money on wine, women and song (more’s the pity) I am prepared to pay well for this work and the quality of the work is my No. 1 expectation. Yes I have suffered disappointment through poor quality work from dedicated 4x4 premises and also from Dealer service centres. I’ve had some bloody good work done as well.

By far, the worst problems I have encountered while travelling have always been on vehicles where people have insisted on doing the work themselves or had “backyarders” or mates do it. This is without exception, my experience in the Australian outback. Yes shit happens to even the best and most professionally prepared vehicle but, having had a consistent history of skilled tradespeople work on my vehicle pre and post trips, I can generally ensure that problems are identified prior to them happening. The advise provided is often invaluable and makes for a much safer trip all round. This level of consistency may well be lacking when we place cost over skill in our recreational pursuits. I need to make the distinction that many people have a lot of skill and experience but no qualifications and these people are great to travel with. I know that the blokes I travel with could crochet a remedy for broken suspension parts out of dental floss if need be but.... the intricacies of a modern, common rail twin turboed, computer controlled engine requires a degree of sophistication and expertise that can surpass even their miracle working.

My point in all this is that there is always a risk getting work done professionally or with an amateur, but my experience shows that the risk is always greater when it’s DIY.

As an aside, I spent many thousands of dollars preparing the electrical systems in my vehicle to ensure that I have a level of redundancy that ensures I have the best chance possible of making it back to civilisation. Much of this stuff doesn’t appear in a text book but was thought out by a qualified electrical trades person fluent in vehicle engineering, DC electrics and the rigours of outback travel. He took the time to speak with local manufacturers to ensure that his thinking around their capability was correct. The solution has been unmatched in quality and I have not even blown so much as a 10 amp blade fuse in any part of the system over the past 4 years of hard, rigorous travel. Very different from my earlier experiences with unqualified ‘experts’ while putting my first couple of vehicles together. It was worth driving my car 800 km for and I have had no hesitation in recommending his work to other members on this site who have been equally pleased with his expertise and service quality. Not cheap but worth it. Money well spent the first time round! I guess I’m one of the happy 15%.

''We knew from the experience of well-known travelers that the
trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
Richard Maurice - 1903

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FollowupID: 815480

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 12:10

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 12:10
Hi Olcoolone
Before I retired, one of my positions involved hiring out engineers and designers to mining companies.
Many were rejected for the lack of qualifications.
Some knowingly lacked the qualifications required.
Some didn’t even know they weren’t qualified.
Claims of qualifications on forums like this are unverifiable and should be treated with caution.
As for the Nigerian transvestite – I wasn’t trying to insult - it’s a joke
FollowupID: 815482

Follow Up By: Member - Scott M (NSW) - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 12:40

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 12:40
"My point in all this is that there is always a risk getting work done professionally or with an amateur, but my experience shows that the risk is always greater when it’s DIY." - very much the truth Mick.

All my travelling companions get the vehicles fully serviced and checked head to toe before any major remote trip. Best insurance you can get, in fact we insist on it.

Not meant as a criticism, one of the difficulties you face with a mechanic who isn't a 4wd specialist (and some who claim they are !!), is trying to educate them on the sort of conditions you are going to face on remote tracks like the CSR, AB Hwy, Rudall NP etc. etc. especially when you're getting them to do modifications. The concept of robustness and redundancy makes them think you're being a pedantic a-hole. :-)

"Sorry mate I want at least two latches on the canopy of this thickness", or "I want this diameter bolt with lock nuts" or "no mate - a single spot weld ain't gonna do it" or "please double check that bit of work as failure could be fatal" etc. etc.

Takes time.
FollowupID: 815486

Follow Up By: Mick O - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 13:02

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 13:02
Dennis, your response probably could have been delivered a little better and with more thought. In its initial form it comes across poorly.

Scott, couldn't agree more with you there. I've had issues with auxiliary fuel tanks from three manufacturers. Two, those who do nothing else but make these types of things, were very responsive. When I explained what the conditions were like out there and why (more people travelling on them etc), they realised that they would have been mad not to listen and take this into consideration. They sell a lot of products that will return to them pretty darn quick if they can't handle the rigours of those iconic outback trips like the Canning and Gunbarrel. There is never a quibble when I tell them I want extra mounting points or corner gusseting when I get them fitted.

Like a good butcher, dentist or hairdresser, when you find a good mechanic, you will always gravitate back to them regardless of the distances involved.

Cheers to you both,

''We knew from the experience of well-known travelers that the
trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
Richard Maurice - 1903

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Follow Up By: Slow one - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 13:25

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 13:25
I always took the Nigerian transvestite as a joke. Now where can I get some Hash cookies.
FollowupID: 815493

Follow Up By: Member - Scott M (NSW) - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 13:26

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 13:26
Most of travelling group have had this problem is degrees Mick. Bit hard when you're the layman tell them a qualifed tradesman how to do their job. :-)

"Yeah, I know you've got a lot of experience fitting out DMR/Transfield/council etc. trucks to their requirement, but with all due respect, unless you've travelled there you've got no idea what this is going to be put through..."

I usually tell them to imagine the worst corrugated road they've ever been on .... wait a while and then tell them to image 1000k's of that !

My basic rule from experience is:

"If it can vibrate it will wear, if it can wear it will snap eventually" - so either fully weld it or rubber mount it ...
FollowupID: 815494

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 13:48

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 13:48
I got to say that Olcoolone's post is on the money, even if he is a Nigerian Transvestite he has summed it up well

To counter the complaints about tradies , I have been told by a number of Dept of Fair Trading inspectors that they have a lot more trouble with consumers and their unreasonable expectations than they do with poor trademanlike work
FollowupID: 815496

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 14:14

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 14:14
No Dennis it wasn't the Nigerian transvestite part that I took as an insult........

Moving on what I find on forums is most degrading comments come from people who have no idea about what they are quoting about or were the cause of the problem lies or stems from.

Believe me there are many who work in dealerships and other places of repair who get very frustrated on the quality of work or parts use...... Unfortunately most of these people require a weekly pay check and if they become to vocal they loose that weekly pay check for not towing the line........ Many good ones simple move on or out the industry.

Making money is everyones purgative in life and it's the same for employers and business owners..... Some want more and some are happy with what they get.

One thing I am against is performance bonuses to employees...... Make them (employers) more money or save them money and you get a bonus at the end of the period, this is bad for the customer as it encourages the employee to cut corners or do things tat are not needed...... The employee looks at the customer as a cash cow who is going to fund the extra cartoon of bear next week.

People are a funny creature....... They want more but when it comes to giving they want to give less, they want top wages and conditions for them selves but are happy to force another business who employes people to do thing cheaper and pay less with worse conditions.

Slow One........ Dealerships and vehicle manufactures know they can not legally get customers to return to them for servicing and repairs and it is illegal for them to say different; this is enforced by the ACCC........

But the condition of warranty is all servicing and repairs has to be done by a qualified tradesman or registered business in that field.... And not Mr Joe Backyard the florist.

If there is a problem with the work the qualified tradesman or registered business in that field does then there is a legal claim for associated costs and rectification, something hard to do with Mr Joe Backyard the florist.

The other thing you have to understand is the legal ramifications there are if something you do goes pear shaped compared with a qualified tradesman or registered business in that field does........ You hear people on this forum asking about brake repairs and wiring trailer brakes...... If something goes wrong due to there (DIYer) work or advice that has been given to them then and someone gets hurt or killed there is a good chance of a big fine or jail term for all involved including the forum owners and the person giving advice (hence why I against giving some advice).

The same applies to qualified tradesman and registered businesses in that field...... But the difference is they have insurance and can fall back on their qualifications and competency.

Did you know it's not illegal to change a powerpoint or plug on the end of a 240v cord...... But it is competency based, if it goes pear shaped they (the authorities) will be looking for competency proof..... And youtube or Google doesn't count....... But if you have done 30 of the same for your employer then your deemed competent, you will still get raked over the coal, maybe a fine and jail but it will be less server.

Think of it like the guy or girl at the vacuum cleaner factor who fits the 240v power cord....... They are not qualified electricians but the do have competency for the task.

This can also apply at dealerships where competency can be classed as qualified...... A tradesman must reach a certain competency level before being signed of on that task....... Doctors and dentists are the same.

Everyone is looking for someone to blame including the authorities and it won't be long before insurance companies do the same...... It's getting to a stage whereby individuals are dealt the same as big business.

So if I have come across arrogant in some of my posts I apologise BUT i will alway take the stand that some things should just not be asked on a forum if you have no idea of it...... And especially if it can cause injury, death or financial hardship.

And I'll stand behind my view of doing it right the first time.

One last thing on the four dealerships in your area doing alright....... Obviously you have made this assumption on the outside view, smoke and mirrors can mask a lot of underlying problems.

You don't really know the real financial situations of the dealerships, how much money they have borrowed or re borrowed,what assets they have had to sell to stay afloat or what loans they have altered or funding they have and how much they own the creditors including employee entitlements, Workcover or the ATO what future plans they have and how close they are to folding..." Yeap paint can hide everything.

Anyone can have a new sports car, a big boat, a expensive house and all the luxury trimming with a beautiful wife and perfect kids...... What you don't know is how perfect is it and what lies underneath..... For all you know they might have a $3 million mortgage with credit card maxed out and struggling to buy new shoes for the kids....... But to you they look well off and perfect....... Something your envy of and wish you had........only if you knew the truth.

We have had 6 large companies we do work for go into administration in the last 4 months, 1 still trading and the other 5 gone for good...... Plus the other 4 last year....... Some Places are doing it tough.

When you had a look at these companies from the outside they were booming with good contracts, newish equipment and plenty of staff...... The only time we knew something was wrong was when we got the dreaded letter from the administrator. When you read through the creditors listing and see what they owed you were gobsmacked...... $8 million owed to the creditors, $700,000 secured and $300,000 of sellable assets..... But on the outside they were going great!

Mick O....... John is a remarkably talented guy...... Don't know about the floss thing but I know he can knit a stove out of steel wool.

Seeing him tomorrow..... Something about a thick sump guard he wants me to bend for some 100 series.....

And by the way your warranty expired last week. LOL

I got sick and tired of reading on here about shonky work and I can do it better....... Most people don't see, understand or know how a business functions or associated parts operate. that's why I replied how I did.

The bantam....... Yes there are still people who want to do it properly and there are still people who teach how to do it properly..... Yeas I an anal and the people who work for me would say the same.

It's funny how people who do shonky work seem to stick together and the same goes for those who do it right.

The buck stops at the boss and it's the boss who has the final say on how something is done..... Some bosses don't give a dame are are profit driven and other bosses do give a dame and won't compromise their own name, business name or reputation.

The hardest thing is quality and skills come with age and so does wages...........younger workers + less wages X more profit or competitive edge divide by what the majority of people want = poor workmanship now and in the future.

Most of these people have never been taught the right way of doing something and why........... Zinc plated bolts used in corrosive environments and stainless bolts used it hight tensile applications....... Why do you use. 8.8 bolt instead of a 10.9 and vise versa.......

We use SikaFlex in a lot of sealing, many still use silicon and wonder why it fails in a few years.......try telling some who should no better silicon doesn't bond to plastic....... Primer and deburr holes you drill......use a snug fitting convoluted tubing, if not it can rub through the very wires your trying to protect........ All these things are not taught and many don't know the pros and cons...... It's sad......really sad.

Australians really need a kick up the as...... As we are very capable of quality work but most have a care factor of ZERO..... Think they work in poor conditions and are under payed.

FollowupID: 815497

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 16:05

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 16:05
I would agree with most of that Olcoolone, except your ..........

"Did you know it's not illegal to change a powerpoint or plug on the end of a 240v cord".

Actually that is illegal unless you hold an appropriate licence, generally a "Restricted Electrical Licence" as a minimum. Exemptions apply to appliance manufacturing assembly lines.

Sure, Bunnings will sell you a plug top complete with packaging providing fitting instructions, but fitting it is limited to licencees as Bunnings disclaimer signs will tell you.

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FollowupID: 815502

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 16:45

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 16:45
Arrhhhh... This is where this competency thingy comes into play, it's illegal to fit a new GPO unless your qualified as part of your qualifications is design and installation but replacing a GPO as long as your competent and if some goes wrong you can prove you followed acceptable standards it is legal.

The electrical act is a funny one as it is mostly to do with industrial/ commercial applications and then there is the rule of thumb.

Under industrial/commercial there is a limitation on the number of GPO's one can run off a sub circuit....... In residential there is no limitations as long as you have two or more sub circuits. But there are other parts of the standard that comes into play.

Now if you bought 25m of flex and put a socket on one end and a plug on the other end that is illegal as it comes under the design factor...... Buy a lead all ready made, cut it in half and put a plug and socket on it that comes under competency.

Competent and qualified is such a grey area...... You can have someone who is qualified but not competent and the can be prosecuted and you can have someone not qualified but competent who doesn't.

Bunnings have the signs for a very good reason...... It's called legal liability reasons and we warned you!

It's nothing to do with the standards or anything else......just legal liability.
FollowupID: 815506

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 16:48

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 16:48
As alan B posts.

At least in QLD ( the act I know)
What constitutes "electrical work" is explicitly defined in the act, and a unlicenced person most certainly can not replace a power point or change a plug on a cord legally.

There are some specific case exemptions....but very few.

Under the old QLD act there where some very interesting engineers and primary producers.....they all went away with the a current act.

You could be the 30 year experienced masters degee engineer that designed and managed the manufacturer of a companies whole, range of power points, light switches, plugs and sockets.
But in this country without an electrical licence you cant legally do a damn thing.

FollowupID: 815507

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 17:20

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 17:20
In NSW anyone can go and do a 1 day course and be qualified to test and tag electrical appliances and replace plugs if necessary
Other states may vary
FollowupID: 815509

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 17:34

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 17:34
Yes Alby, I think that can apply in other States also. It is one of the "appropriate licence, generally a "Restricted Electrical Licence" that I referred to.
But as I said, to be legal, you still need a licence, even if it one simply obtained by completing a course of several hours.

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FollowupID: 815511

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 17:54

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 17:54
To be honest Olcoolone, I am a little out of touch with current regulations being retired, although I once held a South Australian electrical licence (and Vic, NSW and Qld.)
So maybe the regulations have changed but it would surprise me if they have changed in the direction of relaxation in this era of "Regulation".
And I do realise that you are not promoting relaxation of electrical standards any more than you would endorse inappropriate works standards on vehicles or elsewhere. I recognise the quality of work that your company performs and endorse it.

Yes, I realise that "Bunnings signs" are for reasons of legal liability etc. but it relates to Regulations, not "Standards". It is the Government Regulations that control these matters and which refer to various Standards as part of the Act.

In fact, I doubt that anyone is likely to be prosecuted for replacing a plug-top, but doing so incorrectly can produce a lethal safety hazard.
I personally know of one fellow who damn near electrocuted his wife simply by transposing the active and neutral connections on a GPO.

But we are getting off-topic methinks.


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FollowupID: 815512

Follow Up By: Slow one - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 18:40

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 18:40
good thinking about the electrical side of things.
FollowupID: 815517

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 19:05

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 19:05
To be come an electrician you have to be competent in a number areas you will encounter whilst being an electrician but you can also become competent in one area you'll be working in and not the other area..... But you will not be qualified as an electrician......If that makes sense.

There are so many specific industry based qualifications available and some you only have to a member if that industry group to obtain it.

Competency comes in many forms including on the job, class room, recognition of prior learning and time based.

I have signed off on a few on my guys trade school subjects to saying they are competent in what they do....... Last week we got approached by one of our big customers to do the same for one of their apprentices because they don't do work in the subject.... We do it for them.

It's no different to how it use to be done in the 50's, just that there are more RTO ( recognised training organisations) who you can apply to.

When you do a trade now you have set subjects that can not be altered but you also have a fair few elective subjects they have to do..... These elective subjects are from a number of different trades.

An apprentice motor mechanic can also get qualifications in food prep, hygiene and a raft of other weird stuff.

As for electrical this is how people who repair power tools, generators and some other stuff get away with it..... There are stringent rules they have to abide by.

People have to make their own judgement on there competency on stuff they are going to try and do....... I think it makes a big difference if it is part of your work BUT the risks are much higher.

If in doubt seek help and get a professional AND don't rely on Youtube or Google for qualified advice.
FollowupID: 815521

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 19:19

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 19:19
You cant get a restricted electrical licence in a one day course.

You can get a competency certificate that allows you to test and tag......finish end story.

It does not allow you to do electrical work, even work as simple as changing a plug on a cord.

AND there are restrictions on who's and what equipment you can test and tag....and what testing equipment you can use.

A Restricted electrical licence requires a related trade pre-requsite and additional training & assessment.

There are several levels of restricted licence ranging from plug and cord electrics to 3 phase disconnect / reconnect.

FollowupID: 815524

Follow Up By: Member - Scott M (NSW) - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 20:08

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 20:08
Honestly, every third thread on this site turns into a bun-fight over electrics and licensing. Getting a bit tiring.

Take it here folks if you need to....

FollowupID: 815528

Follow Up By: Shaker - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 21:00

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 21:00
It used to be a fantastic source of information for travelling this great country.
Now it's become a mixture of arguing, whinging about products & services , or where can I screw the lowest price & then whine about lack of back up.
How come other forums can have discussions on things like solar, fridges, batteries etc, without descending into gutter level arguments, time for the Moderators to do their job!

Let's get back to how it was & leave the whinging for sites like Not Good Enough!

FollowupID: 815536

Follow Up By: ModSquad - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 22:00

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 22:00
Gutter level!...a tad emotive and some what inaccurate and probably not a true reflection of the content of the 107727 other posts on the Exploroz forum.

That said, lets keep it relevant please people. 4x4 camping and travelling in case you need a reminder. Nothing is being advanced here and it's all getting a tad repetitive and off topic.

Thank you

The squad
Moderation is just rules

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FollowupID: 815539

Reply By: mikehzz - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 08:33

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 08:33
I've got a Land Rover, about as high tech as you can get and reportedly they can be a bit "flighty" and need specialist knowledge. My local guy has looked after it for 6 years and nearly 200,000kms without an issue. He doesn't even like Land Rovers. My tip is to find someone you trust and give them your business. He's done my Jeep for the same length of time and kms as well. He doesn't like Jeeps either... :-) If he ends up making a mistake, he has plenty of "trust" in the bank at the moment. Nobody's perfect but the buck stops with him as far as any problems go. I also use people recommended by him for other work like exhaust or auto transmission services, it's been a good policy. I've had problems with dealers in the past where I've been charged a fortune for work that wasn't done. It can be annoying dealing with a corporate stone wall.
On another note, I think the Exploroz shop should stock some chill pills.....
AnswerID: 532247

Follow Up By: Member - Scott M (NSW) - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 10:20

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 10:20
"On another note, I think the Exploroz shop should stock some chill pills....." - amen to that
FollowupID: 815470

Follow Up By: Slow one - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 10:46

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 10:46
It would be better if they sold some Hash cookies.
FollowupID: 815471

Follow Up By: BarryR1 - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 12:09

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 12:09
Or as my dear old mum used to say "A Bex powder and a little lie down" always help.

As always, it is just those special few time and time again. Not much positive to say, add no real value, deliberately inflame or troll, always the first to fling an insult or denigrate someone else, promote Nigerian scams and drug use and should be finding the "grumpy old couples" forums to add nothing there instead of here.

It's always the same few!
FollowupID: 815481

Reply By: evaredy - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 11:05

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 11:05
I have given up on dealers, when we purchased our 2013 Dmax we had issues even with the first free service.

Now I should also mention that we had dramas with the dealer right from the time we paid for the vehicle. We ended up contacting Isuzu Ute Australia and they intervened, we were extremely impressed with them and they did everything to make sure we were 100% satisfied.

Anyway, our first free service was due, so I reluctantly allowed the dealer to do it. After picking up the car and arriving home, I was looking for something in the manual and decided to make sure they had stamped the service book.

Nope, nothing, not even a signature, so I contacted IUA again and within 10 mins I get a call from the service manager. He tells me it has been done, I call him a liar and demand he come out and pick the car up and redo the service, he agrees.

Later that day he returns the car with the updated service book, an hour later I get a call from IUA asking if everything has been done to my satisfaction. They also ask me to write to them outlining everything that took place from the purchase to the service and they would "deal with it". I have been blown away by IUA's commitment, they do take negative feedback very seriously.

I now take my car to a 4x4 workshop and have been very happy with the work done. As long as they use genuine parts my warranty remains in tact.

But, with the amount of addons I have had done to the Dmax, I wonder how I will go if I need to make a claim.

AnswerID: 532256

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 14:37

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 14:37
You can get away with using non genuine parts as long as they meet or exceed the OEM part.

But OEM parts are not much more expensive the non OEM and in some cases cheaper.

But it is a good idea to use OEM just in case of a claim...... One hurdle your all ready overcome.

In vehicles less then 10 years old we still use OEM coolant and the same goes for radiator hoses.

OEM parts are very competitive...... Unless you want to penny pinch.

Good that Isuzu are paying attention and acting on your problem.

Most dealerships it's the person your dealing with who is the problem and not the whole dealership...... Unless you own a BMW or Merc!
FollowupID: 815498

Reply By: Alan S (WA) - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 11:37

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 11:37
I have had cars from new, and all serviced by Dealers. Prior to that i drove secondhand cars that were out of warranty. The secondhand cars I had serviced at various independant workshops.
Have i had 100% good service from the dealers, no, as some one erlier pointed out there is a human factor.

Have i had 100% good service from independant workshops , no, as well for the same reasons.

But where i have had problems with a dealer it has certainly been easier to resolve than independant workshops as with inependant the boss/owner/mechanic is the judge & jury. Where as with a dealer there is escalation path above the workshop before you have to go legal.

I had a triton years ago that suffered lower pulley bolt failure on the crankshft, due to being installed incorrectly, vehcile was out of warranty at that stage. The work was done by the dealer, i ended up escalation to mitsubishi and got recourse. Had this been a independant i would have had no recourse.

Of course the nay sayers here will say that and independant would have done he job right. But as i pointed out above independants are not immune form making errors.


AnswerID: 532258

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 12:24

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 12:24

I would agree with much of what you say. I also have had both good & bad experience with Dealers, just as I have had good & bad experience with independent workshops. It's probably 50/50 but certainly I do not have sufficient data sample to provide a quantitative analysis and probably neither does anyone else.

The significance between Dealer and Independent perhaps lies with there usually being a choice of only one Dealer for your brand in your district whereas there may be a number of independent workshops to choose from. Having found, by reference or experience, a quality competent workshop one would almost certainly stick with them and develop a good relationship to mutual advantage, something more difficult to achieve with a Dealer.

It took a couple of attempts but I now have a trusted 4x4 workshop for the Troopy where the two owners are also the mechanics, together with a couple of well supervised apprentices. Now the Camry will be serviced there as well. Besides it is way cheaper than the Toyota Dealer workshop.

If I did have a problem with my independent workshop I would be happy that I was dealing with the proprietor directly than a Dealer Service Manager.


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FollowupID: 815484

Follow Up By: Alan S (WA) - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 13:34

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 13:34

Probably also comes down to location, small towns compared to cities where ther is a choice of dealers. If your not happy you have a choice and can change. living in the city I can just find another dealer if i am not happy.

Amazes me that people have bad experience with a dealer so all dealers of all different makes get tarnished with the same brush. Yet when there is bad experience with a smaller independant people just find another workshop. They certainly dont then tarnish all independants the same.


FollowupID: 815495

Follow Up By: evaredy - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 16:09

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 16:09
I have had quite a few new cars over the years and have always found dealers to be the worst when it comes to servicing.

They are happy to charge you a premium, but aren't always as keen to complete the servicing as it should be, but rather they tend to skip over things to cut down time and maximize profits.

There are many stories from plenty of others who have also had bad experiences with dealers, with work not being done as per the book.

Mechanical workshops such as the one I now go to, need to be on the ball and do the job as it should be done, they are small and I would assume rely heavily on word of mouth recommendations for quality workmanship.
They can't afford to stuff up because that same word of mouth recommendation can have a very negative affect on their business.
FollowupID: 815503

Follow Up By: Ross M - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 16:29

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 16:29
I made a dealer principal realize that the number of drivelines not being serviced ie change all oils, was easily known to be happening.
I pointed out to him he would/should be able to work it all out by the amount/quantity of driveline oils, he WASN"T using at his dealership, for the number of vehicle being serviced.
He then realized people do take notice of dealer servicing. Same Marque as yours
FollowupID: 815504

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 19:24

Sunday, May 11, 2014 at 19:24
Yeh that only works if the people doing the servicing aren't theving the oil they don't use.

FollowupID: 815526

Follow Up By: evaredy - Monday, May 12, 2014 at 10:00

Monday, May 12, 2014 at 10:00
Many dealers carry on about the need to have them service the car, because they have all the proper equipment. They also convince people that they have to take it there because of the cars computer system, they also go on about the need for genuine parts etc.

Because of this, many people still think they need to take it to the dealer for the servicing. They don't understand or realize that they can take it to any mechanic, as long as it is serviced as per the book and genuine parts are used.

My daughter is one of them, she recently bought a second hand car, it still had some warranty on it and she told me the dealer told her that she had to take it back to them for the servicing. It took some time to convince her otherwise, because she was scared she would loose her warranty if she took it to anyone else.

I understand they like anyone else want to make money, but I disagree with the crap they dish out to people, then they do a shit job and charge a fortune.

FollowupID: 815575

Reply By: The Landy - Monday, May 12, 2014 at 11:48

Monday, May 12, 2014 at 11:48
Phew, quite a read!

I will put myself in the category of not being able to do the work myself, never will, but will research to the hilt to ensure what I do is the best for me. Price is way down the list and I have used both dealerships and specialist 4WD shops.

But the take-away for me from this thread is there is a commonly held view that all dealerships are simply trying to rip you off and will not do the job properly. I find that a difficult proposition to accept.

I purchased a new Toyota 79 Series Dual Cab in September last year. I have two choices when it comes to servicing, use the dealership network or go to a specialist shop – it is pretty simply really, or is it? After reading this thread I can do no better, or worse it seems by choosing either. At the end of the day, if I commit to one or the other it is going to take time to determine whether I am getting the correct service and attention I am willing to pay for either way. Sure, due diligence may highlight some after- market providers that will do an excellent job, but equally it might also reveal dealerships that do also.

I fully appreciate that the brands cannot legally stipulate that servicing must be done through the dealership network. And anything covered under warranty needs to be attended to in terms of the warranty conditions regardless of who services the vehicle. But what about something that moves into the “grey” area, could be warranty or Toyota might argue it isn’t. I feel I will have a far better chance of arguing a better outcome if I have been supporting Toyota’s Dealership network than if I haven’t been.

There is lots of emotive commentary in this thread, but I’m sure there are many like me who will need to make choices around this very issue and nothing I have read here convinces me either way in terms of making that choice – in which case perhaps I am better with the dealership network?

As a footnote; I had a Landrover prior to this current vehicle and it was maintained exclusively by a non-dealer specialist Landrovershop.
AnswerID: 532334

Follow Up By: mikehzz - Tuesday, May 13, 2014 at 12:32

Tuesday, May 13, 2014 at 12:32
I estimate I have saved 50% on service costs by not using the Land Rover dealer...checkmate, game over. :-)
FollowupID: 815661

Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, May 13, 2014 at 13:00

Tuesday, May 13, 2014 at 13:00
Oh Mike, not so fast on the check (mate).

Apparently, after I took delivery of the Land Crusier the Land Rover specialist went into a tail-spin trying to work out how he is now going to fund his retirement – and if that wasn’t bad enough he’s had to cancel those annual holidays he was taking in the south of France!

Maybe you can help him out ;)

Cheers, Baz – The Landy (Oops)
FollowupID: 815662

Follow Up By: mikehzz - Wednesday, May 14, 2014 at 05:42

Wednesday, May 14, 2014 at 05:42
The first service on my new Land Rover in 08 with only 12k on the clock cost me $550 at the dealers. Not bad for an oil change. The second service at 24k was $950. This was on a new car that wasn't even a year old. The average cost since then at my local has been around $300 and that includes a few brake replacements. You can only gasp at what a dealer would charge for that. If I am going to be taken for a ride either way, I'll take the cheap seat. I've had 13 services since the dealer experience saving around $5000-$6000 :-)
FollowupID: 815703

Follow Up By: The Landy - Wednesday, May 14, 2014 at 07:55

Wednesday, May 14, 2014 at 07:55
And I think your comment on the “cheap seat” is key to my point and some of the other points being made in this thread. For me it is about getting value for the money I pay, less about what the actual amount is. Actually arriving at a point where this can be properly assessed takes time, whether you are using a “dealership or specialist” and presently I’ll run with the dealership on standard servicing.

The two Land cruiser services I have had to date (10,000 & 20,000 kilometre) has cost a total of $600 under fixed price servicing – cheap or false economy? Only time will tell, but I am monitoring and keeping an open mind on dealership vs. 4WD specialist servicing, but there are sound reasons to lean towards the Toyota Dealership network.

My other point, albeit slightly tongue-in-cheek (If I didn’t laugh – I’d cry) was that I found there was nothing cheap about owning a Landrover, no matter who you use to service or do work on them! And rest assured I am well qualified to form this view point after owning three Landrover Defenders…

Thanks for your thoughts…
FollowupID: 815705

Follow Up By: mikehzz - Wednesday, May 14, 2014 at 08:35

Wednesday, May 14, 2014 at 08:35
"There was nothing cheap about owning a Landrover"....100% agree on that. :-) Still, I'm glad I have owned one as I am about my Jeep, it's all an experience. I like them both but will probably move on when they hit 300K. I'd take the fixed servicing at that price too. Cheers.
FollowupID: 815707

Reply By: Aussi Traveller - Wednesday, May 14, 2014 at 09:05

Wednesday, May 14, 2014 at 09:05
I have a cheap hassle free fail safe alternative, I use it all the time, the work is done on time, it is done once and done properly.

The simple answer is do it yourself, I have done it for years with absolutely no come backs no extra cost and trouble free motoring.

AnswerID: 532445

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