The antics of some caravanners really make me wonder.

Yep...Living the dream but creating a nightmare...

Just have to agree and you can follow the dream AND be thoughtful of other road users. I know I try to be.

Agree with Legendts, I often travel at 100-110 with the van behind and get really peeved with those towing at 80k/hr.

Don't tar all caravaners with the same brush as we are not all the same.

"Don't tar all caravaners with the same brush as we are not all the same."

Exactly!

I would prefer to overtake a caravan travelling at 85 kph than at 100 kph (on a 110 speed limit road).

Of course in Western Australia where most highways have 110 kph limit, the speed limit for all trailers is 100 kph.

The inconsiderate or risk taking driver can be found in any type of vehicle - but most often in cars (not towing).

I have been guilty of towing at 110kph. Until I had the axle break away from the van writing the caravan off. I now restrict my speed to 90kph, I feel this is safer when towing. High speed is fine until something happens. So am I classified as irresponsible for travelling at less than the posted speed???

I always towed at the speed limit so I didn't create a hazard on the road which some people deny they are doing when travelling at 85kph etc on good roads with miles of traffic stuck behind them. If you have the correct type of tow vehicle and an appropriate size van to suit your needs there is no reason you need to arrogantly hold up traffic because you were expecting to get fantastic mileage while towing a 2t etc van which is a true fact when you do a lap it's amazing how many people a dumbfounded by how much extra fuel they use they say I wasn't expecting to get such poor fuel econ even when their doing 85 or 90kph research people and a bit of common sense goes a long way something that is lacking amongst quite a few van users.

Gee the impatient drivers must hate it getting behind a wide load travelling a 40 kph. Better double your blood pressure medication LOL

Wide loads are a completely different thing and cannot be compared to slow van drivers which have no real reason for holding up traffic. I encounter wide loads on a weekly basis when working around areas that have extensive mining operations going on and also on most other roads I have travelled on around the country they have a reason for driving at slower speeds which is usually respected by most unlike some van drivers who switch off to their surroundings and get caught up in their own little world. I have driven trucks with wide loads on and off over the past 25yrs.

Yes Peter , and they stick in the right lane unless the need to overtake a slower LKV (truck) and get right back into the right lane after. I will be landing at Frankfurt about 5:30 on Sunday (about 2am Monday Sydney time) but I am not driving this time, decided to use trains instead.,

.

You can't compare European drivers with a lot of our drivers. We suck, the Europeans have far more patience, road manners and consideration for others. It stands out that far, I reckon every idiot on our roads should be made to drive over there so they can see what good driving is all about. The old Mr Magoo cartoons spring to mind.

And the German trains run exactly on time Doug so don't be late :-)

Not the ones who drive Brits 4wd up north one word for them mad.

Australian drivers include some of the most impatient and selfish drivers in the world. We SHARE the road with oversized and slow loads, heavy haulage, caravans, cars and what ever else is legally on the roads. If someone feels unsafe at a higher speed, be it due to inexperience, type of load, road or weather conditions, they should not be forced to drive faster than their comfort level. Courtesy and patience are sadly lacking in Australian drivers.

Drivers with this bad attitude should spend a while in Bali, and learn patience with a smile. Balinese truly share the roads without the Australian impatience and road rage. Traditionally their roads were for pedestrians, animals and bikes. Now these tiny roads, with a water channel at each side giving no opportunity to pull over, carry numerous small motorbikes (carrying the whole family) cars and even tourist buses which hardly fit and all share the road with the traditional users. We often had to fold in the mirrors to edge past oncoming traffic at crawl speed, with wheel almost in the water channel. Pedestrians do not get off the road or become at all concerned with vehicles – they have just as much right to be there, and are not alarmed by traffic idling along behind them or skimming around them. The laden bikes weave and dodge amongst the other vehicles so closely that we gasp. Everyone is happy and smiling. No road rage, no anger, no impatience.

G'day Motherhen

Just back from three weeks in Bali and agree with you wholeheartedly.

Thanks again for the min-min email.

Cheers
John

Looking forward to being retired so I to can take all the time I want getting somewhere . Seriously how big is Bali, how long does it take to travel from one end to the other ? Something like Tassie I imagine so it is a poor comparison to the long distances people have to cover to reach a destination in Australia, with 2 weeks leave you have to kind of be a saint putting up with the charming manners of some who believe that it is their god given right to head the "convoy " . All good but my pet hate and there a lot that do it is to speed up from 70-80 to the limit on overtaking lanes caravanners are well represented in this habit . With the small margin of leniency on speeding it really does become an issue for the rest of the road users, you know the other 99% of the population that exists .

Greg,

I tow a caravan and I too hate the "Mr Magoos" who go unreasonably slowly and don't care about the queue behind them, and the even worse variety who hog the overtaking lane or speed up as you're trying to get past. Been a victim of that myself. That sort of behaviour is unforgivable, but it is not typical, IMO. Yes, you'll get a couple of instances on a busy highway and they'll stick in your mind helping to brand every caravanner as a bleep , but those people are not representative.

I haven't encountered the "convoy" mentality, but maybe my time will come and I will join you in your criticism if it occurs.

With regard to limited holiday time, I think people need to get some perspective.

You can't do Melbourne to the Cape and back in two weeks. Well, you can if you go like the clappers and blast every who's in your way off the road, and not stop and look at anything. Pull up at 6 o'clock set up the camper, all the time yelling at the kids to shut up and do their bit, cook the meal, go to bed, get up a 6am, brekky, pack up and off again hell-for-leather to do it all again 10 hours later. Then, to swap stereotypes, get on a corrugated PDR, lose it on a bend at excessive speed to meet the self-imposed schedule and collect some poor unfortunate coming the other way. Surely that's not what it's about.

As a caravanner, I'll give you a stereotype that really gets up my nose. I'm keeping left in an overtaking zone and some fool in an asthmatic underpowered, overloaded buzzbox feels the absolute compulsion to get past that effing caravan. I watch them in the mirror. The overtaking lane is running out, but they keep going in the forlorn hope that the laws of physics won't apply and that they'll make it. Now it's either me in the trees or they back off. Sorry mate, if I think they won't make it I give them plenty of warning with the blinker and I change lanes so they cannot kill themselves or me. Sorry if that offends you, but my life is more important than their schedule.

If you have limited time, why not pick a destination that doesn't stretch your time resources and gives you time to "smell the roses" and not get stressed by an unrealistic timetable.

Cheers

Hi Frank, I am never one to push the envelope as far as distance is concerned, 400 k,s to my little piece of paradise . As you say it is an attitude adjustment . Scott nailed it with his piccy so so true, in years gone by this was not an issue, pass at 120/140 on o/taking lane if you had to but now it is not option .
If you want a perfect example of why the 1% over or whatever it maybe in each state is bloody dangerous here is food for thought. Heading home one time on the Pacific hwy ( nsw ) we were second car back with about 1-1.5 k to go before merge, car in front proceeds to go out and doing just over with us on her tail all is sweet . We are about even with the drive wheels on the prime mover when she takes her foot off just before the merge sign, truck has blinker on we're now sitting about 12 inches off her bum and lane running out fast . Low and behold a hwy patrol car flashes past going south, for the life of me the only reason she did what she did must have been that paranoia that prevails nowadays . He must have come in with inches to spare .
Luckily the one behind us had the option to backpedal we had nowhere to go but forward .

Greg,

You have highlighted what I wanted to say but didn't for fear of corrupting the doscussion and being howled down for promoting breaking the law.

I firmly believe that it is in the best interests of safety to occasionally, with discretion and good judgement, exceed the speed limit to safely complete an overtaking manoeuvre.

Those asthmatic and overloaded buzzboxes that I alluded to trying miserably to complete an overtaking manoeuvre are often not for want of power, but fail because of fear of "breaking the speed limit". In so doing they often place the vehicle being overtaken in danger.

Unfortunately the law and the Plods on the road do not recognise this. It is so much easier to have an absolute rule, police it electronically and rake in the dollars, than it is to allow Plod a bit of discretion, which might be subject to query.

Don't get me started on roundabouts.

Cheers

Spot on Iza.

How true it is about common sense being an uncommon commodity.

I also use the 2 way and let them know that I will slow down when the the truck steps out, not before. Gives them a bit more safety for overtaking. Most times I get a "thanks mate" or a quick right left right on the blinkers.


Cheers
Pop

G'day, your U tube vid didn't post................

John,
I just tried it and it ran good as gold from the post

That's a bit breathtaking, Slow!!!

Both trucks over the fog line probably helped the ute driver avoid a Darwin Award.

Funny how the blokes that pull these sort of antics, are often driving asthmatic 4 cyl utes.........they're behind the 8 ball before they even commence the manouevre.

Bob

Bob,
yep, if both hadn't moved it would not have been pretty.

Call would have been, don't bother sending an ambulance just send a hearse with a clean up crew

Slow, I can see it now, must have been a glitch in my computer, thanks

Truly amazing.

The tragedy of this type if incident is the affect it can have on so many people if there was an accident!

Baz...

Yes Landy it does affect many others and I know it only to well.

Right from the truck drivers, wives, children, mums and dads, ambulance, firies, police, truck owners and the list goes on.

Impatient, distracted drivers and those that don't drive to conditions push the envelop.

Not trying to light anyones fire here but from some of the responses I think it would be best if some took defensive driving courses.

I agree that "attitude" is not limited to the driver of a van at a particular time in his/her life. Fair call that they most likely started out driving this way! Interestingly, I have often wondered if that recalcitrant 1% are the same ones that litter etc.

Kind regards

You mean like the one in Slow one's video?

Must have been going that fast he left his van behind.

I hope he buried the "extra" contents of his jocks deep enough......LOL

Cheers
Pop

When we have call a truck on the two way and said "I'll pull over and let you past when I can" the answer is "Stay as you are. I can pass you in XX kilometres". They know the road, and prefer to know will continue at constant speed.

And it all could be avoided if you were doing the speed limit in the first place. Some people think they're doing the right thing pulling over but quite often don't pick good places to attempt it and their vehicle and van is still in the lane and not completely on the verge because there is not enough room so the vehicle behind crosses illegally to the other side of the road over white lines or painted traffic islands to get around which is not safe.

So, Batt's, you're saying that if someone were to offer a following driver an overtaking opportunity and that following driver crossed double lines and drove over painted islands to take advantage of the offer, the resulting unsafe situation is the leading driver's fault!

Where in your reckoning does the following (overtaking) driver have any responsibility?

Cheers

Frank,

Why can't you understand Batt's point of view?

Whether you are comfortable or not towing 3.5 tonnes down the road, swinging off a 50 mm ball, at 100 kph, you just have to do it.

Your's and other road users safety is secondary to his need to do the speed limit.

Ya see, if there is an accident caused by his impatience it's your fault for forcing him to overtake.

As the little meerkat says.....simples. (;=))

Cheers
Pop

Batt's

Further to my follow-up above, the speed limit is not the figure at which EVERYONE should travel. It is the maximum speed in favourable conditions that you're allowed to drive at.

Now, before anyone has a hairy fit, I'm not condoning the Mr Magoos of this world who drive unreasonably slowly, totally unaware or uncaring of the queue of traffic behind them.

But I am saying that "favourable conditions" embrace more than just the weather and road surface. Since this thread is about towing caravans, perhaps the most important aspect of "favourable conditions" is stability of the rig. Stability is affected by load distribution, speed and the geometry of your rig, among other things.

You can't do much about the geometry other than make an informed choice of tow vehicle and caravan and perhaps offset any ill effects with the addition of a weight distributing hitch, yaw damper, suspension modification, etc.

Load distribution is affected by whereabouts in the van you put your heavy stuff - if you're conscientious you can control that. It is also affected by how the van was designed and where the manufacturer has placed built-in heavy stuff - something you cannot control except by knowledgeable choice of van.

So given that you've loaded your van as best you can to retain stability, there remains the issue of speed and its effects on stability.

This video clip shows two things:

One is that a van loaded optimally with weight close to the axle is inherently more stable.

The other is that a van that has less than optimal load distribution is still stable at lower speeds, but quickly becomes unstable at higher speeds.

Batt's, perhaps your van is inherently stable at the speed limit and will settle down quickly after a minor input like a gust from a passing truck. Or perhaps it is unstable and just waiting for something to set it off, as demonstrated in the last part of the video clip where the unstable model was trailing perfectly until it received a single small input that then made it uncontrollable.

This clip recently posted on this site demonstrates my point in real life. On that road it is reasonable to assume the truck was probably doing about 100, but it doesn't really matter. Whatever the speed of the truck, the car and van would have been going a bit faster, all nice and stable, and caught up with the truck. No doubt the car and van accelerated during the overtaking manoeuvre, perhaps not. Regardless, it can be seen that the van had already started to swing before it passed the truck. It was not upset by a quick return to the left lane. More likely it was upset by a change in pressure (read apparent gust) as it moved out of the truck's wake.

That just shows how precarious this stability thing is at speed. There may be absolutely nothing in reserve even for a planned manoeuver like a simple overtake, let alone an unplanned one like a swerve to miss a pothole or an animal or a person, or a gust from willy-willy or a passing truck in the opposite direction.

I think it is totally unreasonable to advocate that all van drivers should tow at the speed limit. (I'm talking highway limits here, 100 and over) It may be ok for some rigs, but I'd be willing to bet the farm that for most it is not, and is probably unsafe - even for you.

Cheers

I was following a car towing a boat once, all seemed fine the boat didn't seem to big for the car we were doing highway posted speed of 100. Then in an instant the boat swayed a little one way then the other then rolled across the oncoming lane. Luckily no one was hurt. The police attended and the driver was not charged with any offence. It shows however that this could happen to anyone. I think if 100 is the max for a car then it stands to reason that when towing something like a caravan then we should reduce our speed. Even more so now when we see the towing limit of vehicles raised stating that the average dual cab ute weighing about 2 tonne can tow 3.5 tonne.
I towed with a Landcruiser for many years but only about 2 ton vans and I believe 3. 5 ton is even too heavy for them to tow safely at speed. Perfect conditions everything is ok but when an emergency stop or direction change is required then disaster

That story reminds me of an incident we saw Cruiser. We were once two cars behind a large sedan (Fairlane or LTD) towing a fairly large and new looking boat with outboard motor - nothing untoward for the size of the car. It was a flat smooth three laned dual carriageway, and at peak traffic, no-one was speeding. It was fine and calm weather.

The boat gave a little wag and my husband said "He's going to loose it". As the traffic slowed, within seconds the boat and car were at right angles to the traffic, blocking all three lanes, with a somewhat shattered boat on its side.

It goes to show, it doesn't take much - some tiny unexpected thing can go wrong, and it is all over. In this case, it appeared the boat was rear heavy. A little bit over what I refer to as its "wobble speed" the fatal sway started. Frank P's video clip explains.

Both parties are at fault one for failing to pull completely out of the lane so it is partially blocked causing a hazard and then encouraging or signalling someone to pass and if that causes an accident they will be at fault for prompting a vehicle to pass in an unsafe manner which they should not do they should let the vehicle behind make that decision on their own. If the person does pass in an unsafe manner they are at fault.

Batts
You got that very wrong.
The onus is ALWAYS on the overtaking vehicle to ensure that it can carry out the overtaking manouver safely.
If the slower vehicle signals that he thinks that it is safe for you to overtake and you assume that he's right and something untoward happens.............guess what? The overtaking vehicle is in the wrong

As a result of this I will NEVER signal that I think it is safe for a faster vehicle to overtake me particularly when I'm towing a caravan or heavy trailer.
The overtaking driver must ALWAYS make his own decision as to whether or not it's safe to overtake regardless of any signals from the vehicle being overtaken.

Disco.

Yep got caught out once - stuck behind a vehicle for a while and then he indicated with his indicators that it was OK to overtake and when I started the manoeuvre he turned right.

So these actions can be misconstrued.

Right click of indicator should never be used for any other purpose than indicating a movement to the right.

Exactly but in the good ole days it was also used to indicate it is safe to overtake.

Apparently it went out when they dropped "mind-reading" from the driving test...(thankfully!)

Cheers, Baz - The Landy

"garrycol posted:
Exactly but in the good ole days it was also used to indicate it is safe to overtake.

Back in the good ol' days, I first saw the 'right click' being used by heavy haulage to indicate safe to pass when touring Europe with my family. Note that they drive on the right side of the road. Why or why didn't someone work out the difference when they started doing it here? It should have been a left click, never a right click here in Australia.

Cause our dummy aussie drivers would try to overtake on the left on the shoulder.

I have to say something here as that this is close to a topic that I love. This country and any traditions that we have LEFT.

Stuff the good old days in Europe. This is supposed to be Australia even though we seem to speak more American and you wont find a "Butcher" on Sydney Road. But that's another point.

Why do we have to change. It worked for us. I remember Dad telling me about the flip out indicators on the Old Armstrong Sidley when we lived at Mt Beauty, and that was the early 1950 to 1953.

I have used the right blinker to say that you can overtake now if you want for decades. Two blinks only. Just as I did 50 years ago and Dad 15 years before that. Although I have started using the radio only of late.

I will also NOT overtake if the vehicle in front clicks just once or more than twice.

I will NOT overtake if I can't see far enough ahead.

You have to be carefull. The driver ahead may be having a "bad day" or argument with the bluetooth connection. He is full of drugs and bad judgement. The he may be one who is just stuffing you around because that is his nature. And we have the preacher who only says "Thou shall slow down and smell the roses" no matter what distance you need to travel and how many precious days for your short holiday you have left.

Bugger the other countries who drive on the other side of the road.

To those who got caught overtaking at the wrong time I believe that you made three basic mistakes.
1. You didn't wait to see if the blinker KEPT blinking.
2. You didn't read the road ahead properly. and Lastly
3. You didn't use a little patience and common sense.

Remember that stuff, "common sense". Google won't help you there. Especially the commandment that says "Thou shall not trust other drivers unless you are certain".

I trust no one on the roads today. A shame to say that, and I wonder why we have come across more than our share of ratbags.

Phil

You are right in saying trust no-one on the roads Phil, and I love your "commandment".

We as drivers must make the decision to overtake when we are sure we have adequate time for what we are driving and our driving speed.

We must make sure the person approaching the t-junction really is goring to stop and give way as road rues dictate.

We must make sure that the person indicating to turn into the road we are waiting to turn out from is really going to slow down and turn, not indicating turning into an unnoticed driveway just past the intersection.

We must share the roads with others, what ever their vehicle and driving experience or lack of common sense, and show patience and courtesy to other drivers.

Hi Motherhen

A bit slow clicking the Thanks button. I didn't get any email to say that there was a response.

Phil

"You have to be carefull. The driver ahead may be having a "bad day" ... " OR, if it's an European vehicle, they may just have put their wipers on and hit the wrong lever!

I swap between a Navara (with the stalks on the correct side of the wheel), company pool vehicles, with stalks correctly arranged, and a VW with "reversed stalks.
I have regularly "flashed my wipers" at people who have driven towards me on high beam, and havbe indicated leaving a roundabout with my wipers more than once!

I am unable to understand why these things are not addressed in the ADRs. They have such things as the size of the bolts to attach a child seat to, and the distance apart headlights are allowed, but not a single word about the fundamental matters relating to driver accuracy.

Seriously, the use of indicators and wipers should NOT be a matter of "thinking about which vehicle you are in" - they are, and should be, a matter of instinct. With over 50 years driving, I use indicators and wipers by instinct most of the time. It is only when, in the middle of a manoeuvre, that I realise that I have flicked the wipers on instead of the indicators!
When did we become a part of Europe?

Hi Johnat

We have a built in Brazil for the Australian market F250. My husband regularly indicates with the wipers when changing from driving our other vehicles. They constructed it as right hand drive, but left the steering column in US configuration. Our daughter coped - she used to drive a Ford icecream van that the was the wrong way round too. I have to concentrate very hard against instinct when driving the F250 in traffic.

Disco , Not in a defender any way..LOL.

Just because someone is towing a van doesn't necessarily make them an idiot.
Here's a good example of one not towing a van who was worse than an idiot.
In WA recently a 17yo driver was caught doing burnouts in a school carpark at night.
He totally lost it, hit a fence and a teenage girl who now has only one working leg.
Then he did a runner.
Shortly after the Police caught up with him with the following results:
No Licence to drive, no rego on the vehicle and he also blew over .05

Now that's a IDIOT!!!!!!

Makes someone towing a van a bit below the speed limit look good don't it.

Disco.
(who tries to tow at around 95-100).

And when the road train is 53 metres ....

Not seeing a lot of hands in the air! Mine isn't up, I acknowledge the number of times I have escaped with my life, given some of the damn fool things I used to do as a callow youth (over half century ago!) and before I got any form of licence to drive/ride.

Old saying "You've got to make some mistakes, so you learn things" ... Or, as someone once said "nobody never done nothing what never made no mistakes" ... and yes, the grammar has been deliberately mangled to make a point.

....... And all ExplorOz drivers are perfect!

Les,
big thumbs up for the headlights.

Wow yes I always towed at around 80kph , best fuel rate, so I wonder how this Mercedes Cabriolet would rate, I was passenger with a lady driver, on the Autobahn South of Frankfurt, center lane and was overtaken by a Porsche down the left lane .... which is correct.



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