Safety NEW Vs OLD

Yes, I'd agree.

But then we put on a bull bar and the ANCAP rating is useless (with a couple of exceptions I've come across). In fact the bar may make the vehicle less safe acc to Crashlab tests for BHP.

That's because magazines are focused on offroad ability before everything else. But, it is a 4wd mag writing up on a 4wd .

Some of the writers are the same as some of the public, who think an old style 4wd is more reliable and "tougher" than the new breed, but most have spent that much on the old girl they probably just can't afford a new one ......and neither can I !!

It's quite simple for us. Just after I retired (medically - stuff it) we purchased the 100 series. We spent money making up for solo vehicle remote travel with a need to get back to civilisation paramount in the modifications and accessories. Cost heaps. It will see us out.

There is no way that we afford a new 4WD. It may be fine to be working and/or cashed up but not in our case.

Instead of safety first, we put reliability. I can do some things, I am not totally useless, but to get around some of these electronic "extras" - no way. Another reason we do not want to upgrade. Extra air bags won't get you out of the desert will they. The car is also maintained by an excellent 4WD worskop with heaps of off road and remote areas experience. It always gets a pre and post trip check up and service. I used to but don't now do my own servicing as we prefer the professionals to do it and hopefully maintain better reliability. Won't touch the manufacturers workshops.

My wife read about a 4wd that wouldn't start because the windscreen washer bottle wasn't full!! Youi have to be kidding.

We have never been ones to be fashionable, trendy or ones to upgrade anyway. Had the Kingswood for 22 years, the XD for 18 and now the Maxima for 16. So far the 100 series for 6 years. Nah Stick to the one we have. It will see us out.

Phil

Our 21 year old OKA has no air bags, but it does have a full "ROPS" (Roll Over Protection) rating for the cabin.
That's pretty unusual.
We will be keeping it so long as I can maintain a license to drive it.

Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 Motorhome

The value of the safety aspects of modern 4wd's are demonstrated here -

http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php?t=102495&highlight=carnage

An Audi A4 driven by a drunk driver hit a Discovery 3 head on at an estimated 160kph. They couldn't find a recognizable body of the Audi driver and the car is a mangled mess resembling a Jeep in a repair shop. The Disco's safety cell is pretty intact and the family all survived with relatively minor injuries considering the circumstances.

The extreme decceleration forces in an older 4wd like a Cruiser or Patrol would have killed the 4wd occupants due to no dampening effects provided by features such as airbags etc. and the rigid non crumpling framework.

We once thought things like ABS was pointless extra cost and complexity. Then traction control. But for the average driver they are now IMO invaluable.

I bought a new motorbike last year. With a riding career of 45 years on all sorts of machines electronic traction aids were low on my priority list. But in the event the machine came with very sophisticated ABS and TC - calibrated for varying angles of lean. It's an education how much more you can get out of the potential grip in any situation with these working. They're not a silver bullet by any means but will save your skin if you revert to survival reflexes on a loose surface.

As for 4bies, BHP has mandated that any vehicle on their sites - their own or contractors' - have to be ANCAP 5 rated. At the moment that excludes most aftermarket mods like bull bars or ROPS. This is the future.

It makes me wonder 'what's the point 'when I read stuff like this.

I am sure that most owners will buy the safest vehicle that they can afford.

That's common sense.

But just because Joe Blow is fortunate enough to be able to buy a vehicle with all the latest elecktrickery etc, doesn't mean that I can afford to update to the same vehicle with only a pension as income.

Consequently my purchase is limited to what I can reasonably afford, bearing in mind my needs, and of course her requirements as well.

It's all very well going on about all the latest safety stuff on the latest vehicles but in reality there's not that many who can afford to update each time something new comes out onto the market.

Most of us have to make do with what we can afford.

Rant Over

Now I feel better

Disco.

Could I bring some perspective to this thread.

I have posted below a link to the RMS detailing road fatalities in NSW November 2014-Nov 2015.
The rate is 0.5 fatalities per 100MILLION vehicle kilomters, so the chance of a fatal accident is probably less than winning Tatslotto.( And I have had the same numbers for 30years without winning)

You have to be lucky to survive any crash occurring at over 100Kmh and I would point out that airbags are tested at AFAIR 60KMh.

In a head on crash "Might is Right" and the larger heavier vehicle uses the crumple zone of the lighter vehicle. That is why semi trailer drivers nearly always walk away from horrific accidents.

So A it is extremely unlikely that you will be killed in a road accident, B If you are in a 4WD and hit a smaller car than you are more likely to walk away.

I am a bit disturbed by the attitude of some that passive safety is in some way more important than active safety and the ability to drive well.

It frankly seems to me that this has gone all too far where people appear to buy cars on the basis of how many airbags they have, thinking that they will be a VICTIM.

Me I have a 13 year old Discovery 2 which has 2 airbags and seat belt pre tensioners and I like it because it is simple .

http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/dynamic/nsw-road-toll-monthly.pdf

Regards Philip A

One of my sisters and my sister in law both have new Honda Jazz, both have a 5 star ancap rating. I would not like to be in a major accident with that type of vehicle. I think i would stand a better chance in my old 2 airbag Patrol. What about when getting out of your 5 star ANCAP shiny vehicle and get struck and killed by a motorist using on a mobile phone, whilst still holding your door handle? Michael

I look at it this way. All testing is done at between 40 and 60kph. Any faster than this then the airbags don't activate in time anyway. How many of us will have a head on at 40 to 60kph (both vehicles doing 20 -30kph to achieve a 40 -60kph impact)? More like two vehicles coming together doing 100kph each = 200kph impact.

Food for thought.

Whilst understanding the "theme" of the thread, I can't help but feel that driver attitudes and approach to driving has declined, and for sure, that is a subjective judgement on my part.

Consequently, is there a risk we have created the "my car is invincible" mentality, so I can drive more aggressively on the road - the car will save me, won't it?

But on "Old versus New" I suspect most buy the vehicle that suits them best within the budget constraints they have, and whilst safety might form part of the decision making process, I'm not sure it is a primary consideration, unless you have imposts such as visiting work sites that require certain ANCAP ratings.

I suspect the average four-wheel drive tourer will more likely be thinking better value lies in setting up a vehicle that suits the purpose rather than than safety...

Food for thought though, Baz - The Landy

"From personal experience, there is no way in the world I would put my family in a 4WD that has no air bags and a zero ANCAP safety rating"
Just curios? What did you do before air bags and ANCAP ratings?

We live in a time where in western society, people seem to intensly desire "protection" and "safety" or at least very strong reassurance that they will be "safe" and "protected".

We see and hear the words " Safe" and "Protect", being used more and more in advertising and political speaking.

But very few people grasp the concept of risk managment, likelhood, frequency and consequence...... even less the methods of effectivly managng the real risks.

If you want to feel "Safe" and "Protected" ...... swallow the advertising hook line and sinker and buy that new whatever ...... because it is sure to be "safer" or offer "better protection".

If you want to manage your risks effectively and do something real to reduce likleyhood and consequence of verious events ...... you will look a long way further than swallowing the whole concept of the safety and protection auction.

One example is the pedestrian lobby, banging on about the agressivness of 4wds toward pedestrians ........ truth to tell in Australia, animal strike is a far higher likleyhood and frequency than pedestrian involvement and it can be argued that once frequency is accounted for consequence is equally high.

If you are concerned because you do not have the latest " safety and protection" provided by the latest 5 star rated vehicle ...... but you are towing near maximim capacity ..... you have your priorities wrong.
If you are running a vehicle and trailer that are not 100% unconditionally stable at 100Kmh ....... you are barking up the wrong tree by depending on electronic stability measures.

You can reduce you risks dramaticly, be making sure your rig is loaded well under its rated capacity and has not needed a GVM upgrade, keeping your trailer of van under 2/3 of the vehicles rated towing capacity.

AND so forth.

Time after time we are hearing of people looking for a GVM upgrade, or finding that their vehicle or combination are over weight OR people complaining that they have stability problems ........ even worse we have people driving rigs that are unstable, overloaded or otherwise dangerous and oblivious to the matter.

Proper and real risk managment is YOUR responsibility ....... the advertisers will try and sell you "safety and protection" ....... but, regardless of the real benifits of the product, the majority of what they are selling is false assurance.

cheers

and keeping your trailer or van under 1/2 of the vehicles rated towing capacity would be safer again, as would travelling at 1/2 the speed..........so would wearing a crash helmet.....where do you stop?


Like you said.....Its all about risk management

Most people on the thread including the OP are mentioning "we" and "family" and I imagine trying to sustain other people lives would put safety right up there.

Us single bloke's, well me anyway, just want to go out and explore the bush. Safety comes a definite third place, after performance and reliability.
cheers
Alan

Well, I guess it is peoples choice what they want in a vehicle safety wise, one thing is with the combination of a lot of factors our road toll has been reduced significantly over the years. Many will remember the introduction of seat belts and the statements that in certain circumstances they can kill. The big problem with that is, the amount of lives they save far out weighs the amount of people they kill.

Crumple zones and a rigid cabin are another huge life saver, this has been proven many times, add all these things together, plus others it adds up to the saving of lives and many have walked away with far lesser injuries.

"Australia’s road toll fell to its lowest level in almost 70 years in 2014 and the national rate of road deaths per 100,000 people dipped to the lowest level since records began 90 years ago."

"Although air bags can protect a person under the right circumstances, they can also injure or even kill. The benefit of an air bag is maximized for people who have buckled up their seat belts and have kept children (12 and under) in rear seats, also buckled up. According to the NHTSA, nearly all air bag-related deaths have involved occupants who have been unrestrained or improperly restrained. The combined use of an air bag and seat belt has been found to reduce the risk of serious head injury by 83 percent."

I never think about it but I know if I have an accident I am happy to have all the bits around me that may leave me less injured.