Safety NEW Vs OLD

Submitted: Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 08:29
ThreadID: 131083 Views:3657 Replies:16 FollowUps:55
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I recently read an article in a popular 4WD magazine about holding onto your old 4wd and not upgrading to a new one. There is often many discussions on this forum and many others about new vs old.

What many people fail to consider is the safety aspect of a new 4wd. From personal experience, there is no way in the world I would put my family in a 4WD that has no air bags and a zero ANCAP safety rating. The chances of surviving a major accident and not sustaining major injuries in a 5 star ANCAP rated 4wd as opposed to a 20 year old car, improves ten fold. (according to the crash experts)

Safety ratings should be one of the most important considerations when choosing a 4wd and this is a topic magazines all too often fail to mention.

cheers
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Reply By: Sigmund - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 08:42

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 08:42
Yes, I'd agree.

But then we put on a bull bar and the ANCAP rating is useless (with a couple of exceptions I've come across). In fact the bar may make the vehicle less safe acc to Crashlab tests for BHP.
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 08:49

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 08:49
It may make the 4wd less safe, but to what degree ? Only crash tests could determine that. But, it would still be safer than an "old" 4wd.
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Follow Up By: Traveller61 - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 08:55

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 08:55
I agree. But what it loses in some areas it gains in regards to animal impacts. The main advantage of a new car is the side curtain air bags helping to reduce head injuries. These cars are only getting safer which is a good plus for drivers.
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Follow Up By: Sigmund - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 09:10

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 09:10
The Crashlab test was done on one of BHP's out of lease HiLuxes, with a 3-loop bar. The frontal offset test mangled the pedals and punched a hole in the footwell. See click

As for what impacts a bull bar will resist without immobilising your vehicle or injuring occupants, good luck trying to get info out of the makers. Smartbar is the only crowd with performance data up on the web that I'm aware of.

ARB have an ANCAP 5 rated bar for the Ranger. I think Toyota also have a 5 rated bar/vehicle combo now.

The rest of us on operating on a wing and a prayer.
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Reply By: Gronk - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 08:56

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 08:56
That's because magazines are focused on offroad ability before everything else. But, it is a 4wd mag writing up on a 4wd .

Some of the writers are the same as some of the public, who think an old style 4wd is more reliable and "tougher" than the new breed, but most have spent that much on the old girl they probably just can't afford a new one ......and neither can I !!
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Reply By: vk1dx - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 09:20

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 09:20
It's quite simple for us. Just after I retired (medically - stuff it) we purchased the 100 series. We spent money making up for solo vehicle remote travel with a need to get back to civilisation paramount in the modifications and accessories. Cost heaps. It will see us out.

There is no way that we afford a new 4WD. It may be fine to be working and/or cashed up but not in our case.

Instead of safety first, we put reliability. I can do some things, I am not totally useless, but to get around some of these electronic "extras" - no way. Another reason we do not want to upgrade. Extra air bags won't get you out of the desert will they. The car is also maintained by an excellent 4WD worskop with heaps of off road and remote areas experience. It always gets a pre and post trip check up and service. I used to but don't now do my own servicing as we prefer the professionals to do it and hopefully maintain better reliability. Won't touch the manufacturers workshops.

My wife read about a 4wd that wouldn't start because the windscreen washer bottle wasn't full!! Youi have to be kidding.

We have never been ones to be fashionable, trendy or ones to upgrade anyway. Had the Kingswood for 22 years, the XD for 18 and now the Maxima for 16. So far the 100 series for 6 years. Nah Stick to the one we have. It will see us out.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Jackolux - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 10:10

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 10:10
I'm not getting into this old v new discussion, but the empty washer bottle story sounds like one of those myths that get around the net .
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 10:15

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 10:15
Phil,

Those extra air bags may in fact get you out of the desert alive rather than in a body bag - particularly if you have an accident - rollover, head on over a dune - who knows.

Garry
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Follow Up By: Traveller61 - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 10:18

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 10:18
Yes reliability is very important especially in remote areas. A reliable 4wd is a major contributor to a safe trip for your family. The 100 series ticks all the boxes and proven in respect to reliability.
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 10:39

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 10:39
I think the empty washer story is sus also Jacko. But who am I to argue!!

Spot on Traveller. And why we don't do any rough stuff and take care of the car. We are pleased with the car and the two shops in Canberra (Queanbeyan and Hume) have done an excellent job for us.

Garry; If there aren't and others there (no one seen in 5 daya driving in the Simpson) then other vehicle accidents are out. Then we come to our skills. 50 years both of us and not into rushing or mad driving rough tracks. So the only thing left is animals. That's what the bull bar is for and you can get hurt in the desert if you drive properly. Usually at less than 30-40 KPH.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 01:47

Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 01:47
I'd imagine the "windscreen washer bottle" story was actually referring to the cooling system overflow bottle.
Many vehicles have a coolant sensor installed in the overflow bottle that turns on the coolant light on the dash, if the coolant is low in the overflow bottle.
However, I couldn't imagine any vehicle refusing to start if the sensor detected low coolant in the overflow bottle. Maybe if it was a French or German 4WD or SUV, it wouldn't start?? I could well imagine some French POS with a system like that.
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Follow Up By: Tim F3 - Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 08:12

Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 08:12
From memory wasnt the last motor vehicle accident resulting in death on fraser island,that of a female tourist that rolled an 80 series cruiser on to its side at approx 40 klm per hour...no side air bags..

You dont necessarily need lots of speed to be killed in a vehicle accident.
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 09:12

Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 09:12
Do you mean this one?

English tourist dead, seven injured in 4WD rollover on Fraser Island

I can't see where it says that the side airbags would have helped? I can't find a report anywhere. Typical jounalists - No drama or anything spectacular in follow ups.

That aside; My point was that it's fine for the trendy, cashed up and those still working to update but please explain how I could afford to update the 100 series on a pension.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Member - Scott M (NSW) - Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 12:37

Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 12:37
Phil, tend to agree - given there were 8 people in that vehicle, you would have to assume the seating was 2-3-3 .....

A lot of questions would have to be asked like - what was the speed? - were the windows up or down? - was anyone projected outside the vehicle? - were air-bags available for all 3 rows? - were there any kiddy or half seats? - were any of the belts lap-sash?

Personally, unless the driver was an experienced local, you've got to wonder about the wisdom of putting an O/S driver in charge of a vehicle with 8 people in it .... however I don't obviously know all the facts.
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 14:08

Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 14:08
We tend to get only the "sensational" side of things. eg: and this has to be the only bit on this. That yank said to "suspend" yet all the media is saying "cease" or "stop totally".

Maybe some side air bags would stop me spilling the middy as we go over. Would that work???

Catchya

Phil
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Follow Up By: Sigmund - Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:27

Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:27
A standard disaster story on Fraser is a rental vehicle picked up by a couple who then pack it with their friends, sometimes sitting on top on standing on the tow bar. They don't know how to drive in those conditions and a roll-over produces more casualties than it would otherwise. It's hard to protect people against themselves.
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Follow Up By: gbc - Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:28

Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:28
It hasn't been like that for 10 odd years Sigmund. They (Overseas licence holders in hire cars) must now travel in convoy with a local operator driving the lead vehicle, and at decreased speeds. The royal commission also put an end to the grossly overloaded troopy roofracks which were deathtraps. I've got to say it works, and I'm a local who has had very little love for backpackers on the island and their antics in the past.
The inside story on this accident is that the clown driving was playing silly buggers and trying to blindly overtake members of his own convoy, popped out and nearly took out a vehicle coming the other way, and panicked. The road is dirt, not sand and vis is pretty much nil in the thick dust. The rest is history.
80 series wouldn't have had more than a pair of front bags and even then only if it was one of the last ones built. Most had nothing.
It would be complete conjecture to argue that a vehicle equipped with stability control and the like might have changed the outcome - I know my particular car will straighten me up quick smart (on dirt too) if I even look like going sideways but every situation is different and I wouldn't like to say such things considering the outcome of that incident. Bottom line - he shouldn't have needed them in the first place. RIP to the innocent victim.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:46

Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:46
The driver was actually female gbc. Link
Not that it changes your point.
Cheers
Allan

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Reply By: Peter_n_Margaret - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 10:34

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 10:34
Our 21 year old OKA has no air bags, but it does have a full "ROPS" (Roll Over Protection) rating for the cabin.
That's pretty unusual.
We will be keeping it so long as I can maintain a license to drive it.

Cheers,
Peter
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Reply By: Michael H9 - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 11:01

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 11:01
The value of the safety aspects of modern 4wd's are demonstrated here -

http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php?t=102495&highlight=carnage

An Audi A4 driven by a drunk driver hit a Discovery 3 head on at an estimated 160kph. They couldn't find a recognizable body of the Audi driver and the car is a mangled mess resembling a Jeep in a repair shop. The Disco's safety cell is pretty intact and the family all survived with relatively minor injuries considering the circumstances.

The extreme decceleration forces in an older 4wd like a Cruiser or Patrol would have killed the 4wd occupants due to no dampening effects provided by features such as airbags etc. and the rigid non crumpling framework.
AnswerID: 593614

Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 12:45

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 12:45
"The extreme deceleration forces in an older 4wd like a Cruiser or Patrol would have killed the 4wd occupants due to no dampening effects provided by features such as airbags etc. and the rigid non crumpling framework."

You are correct Michael. A common cause of death in collisions was a ruptured aorta. It was from the impact of the heart on the chest.
Life's great and it just keeps getting better

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Reply By: Sigmund - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 11:06

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 11:06
We once thought things like ABS was pointless extra cost and complexity. Then traction control. But for the average driver they are now IMO invaluable.

I bought a new motorbike last year. With a riding career of 45 years on all sorts of machines electronic traction aids were low on my priority list. But in the event the machine came with very sophisticated ABS and TC - calibrated for varying angles of lean. It's an education how much more you can get out of the potential grip in any situation with these working. They're not a silver bullet by any means but will save your skin if you revert to survival reflexes on a loose surface.

As for 4bies, BHP has mandated that any vehicle on their sites - their own or contractors' - have to be ANCAP 5 rated. At the moment that excludes most aftermarket mods like bull bars or ROPS. This is the future.
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Follow Up By: gbc - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 11:33

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 11:33
Trailer sway control, emergency brake assist, dynamic stability control...... all things that anybody considering towing ANYTHING should seriously look for in a vehicle.
Technology is great.
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Follow Up By: Member - Odog - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 15:41

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 15:41
Sigmund, just my two bobs worth, the abs on dirt roads/tracks on a motor cycle are no good, I used to turn mine off on the dirt, won't even wash any speed off, when needed.. Had my bike stored for a while, and the abs system has ceased up, now has no abs, so now I have no need to turn it off, if you need to lay it down in an emergency, you have no chance, with abs, of locking the back wheel to do so.. And at $4500 to fix it, no thanks! Just my thoughts anyway.. So much electronics on everything these days, wonder what my old man would say with all the changes and technology in life, if he was still around... Happy riding.
Some people want it to happen, some people wish it could happen, others make it happen!

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Follow Up By: Member - Laurie K (WA) - Tuesday, Dec 15, 2015 at 17:32

Tuesday, Dec 15, 2015 at 17:32
"Technology is great."

Until it fails

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Follow Up By: Slow one - Tuesday, Dec 15, 2015 at 20:22

Tuesday, Dec 15, 2015 at 20:22
Laurie, everything can fail, be it basic mechanical or high end electronic control.

What we have to look at is the amount of electronic control around the world. Most of your manufacturing machinery is controlled by electronics and it is very reliable. Most of your mining gear is electronically controlled and many more of your transport vehicles are electronically controlled, plus their trailers.

Think about this, I never want to go back to mechanical brakes and clutch, vacuum brakes, vacuum wipers, no air-con, rag tyres, split rims and the list goes on and on. I came from all that and I find electronics in the main are very reliable. One of the areas that fail is, did the person writing the software get it right.

Your engine, gearbox, diffs, vehicle body, wheels, tyres, radiator, interior, paint and vehicle assembly have all been electronically controlled.

On the whole electronics are very reliable.

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Follow Up By: Member - Laurie K (WA) - Tuesday, Dec 15, 2015 at 22:02

Tuesday, Dec 15, 2015 at 22:02
You won't get an argument from me Slow One, I rely on technology, and if I have a problem, I am never far from someone, either by phone, internet, or physically to get it fixed.
However, if I am hundreds of kms from anywhere, and I have an electronic failure, I would like to know that I can lift the lid, and with a bit of fiddling, maybe fix the problem. With vehicles these days being controlled by computer, mechanical repairs are done as much with a computer as they are with spanners.
My personal take is, prepare, prevent, and drive according to conditions. If I was going to stick to the mainstream, no problem with technology. But I also wonder whether technology is making drivers believe that they can do things that are outside of their capabilities - something they may not have attempted had they had the traditional Lock-the-hubs, manual gear and use-ya-common-sense like thousands have done successfully for years.

I for one, love my HZJ105, and pretty much know it intimately. And it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to service.

To each his own

cheers
Laurie
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Tuesday, Dec 15, 2015 at 23:12

Tuesday, Dec 15, 2015 at 23:12
If you are worried about electronics then take the relevant spare electronic part - exactly as you would a mechanical part.

Because most failures are mechanical but in modern vehicles are communicated to the driver by electronic means, it is the electronics that get the blame.

My RRS is about as electronic as you can get - but does not have electronic issues - sure the electronics communicate mechanical issues but no specific electronic issues.

The other advantage of electronics is if you have a code reader they tell you what mechanical bits have failed - too easy.

Garry
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Follow Up By: Member - Laurie K (WA) - Tuesday, Dec 15, 2015 at 23:43

Tuesday, Dec 15, 2015 at 23:43
As I said Garry, to each his own.

Cheers
Laurie
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:22

Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:22
Yes you are correct but I think you would be happier driving Fred Flintstone's car but you would need thick soles on your feet - a point of failure even back then. .
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Follow Up By: Sigmund - Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:37

Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:37
Odog, yeah, ABS and TC aren't a silver bullet.
That said the setup on mine is Bosch version 9 which is very good. You can select ABS on the front only, the front and back, or neither.
An expert rider can usually beat the ABS - I spent half a day on a course learning optimal braking without it. The thing is it would take a heap of practice to get to that skill level without thinking and like you (maybe) I'm an old dog and new tricks come hard. So I leave them on and they give an extra margin of safety in everyday riding. The TC also helps with tyre wear!
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:45

Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:45
Whilst it is true that "electronics" have become much more reliable with time that is largely due to improvement with the components such as transistors, integrated circuits etc. A large proportion of failures in electronic devices is due to those 'mechanical' components such as switches, connectors and cabling. My long experience in things electronic has revealed far more failures due to the portions of the measurement and control circuitry due to these mechanical components.
It matters not to reliability whether the fault lies with a transistor or with the mechanics of a transducer, a failure with either will render the measurement or control loop inoperable.


The "manufacturing machinery" and "mining gear" that Slow One speaks of is designed to be particularly robust but consumer items, including motor vehicles, are designed with cost very much considered and accordingly not so robust. In a vehicle, the 'black boxes' are housed in reasonably secure locations but the wiring and transducers are exposed to considerable environmental stress often without adequate protection. Invariably, the frequency of these 'physical' failures appear more with the age of the vehicle so their failure potential may still be latent in the recent crop of vehicles incorporating abundant electronic componentry, waiting to rear their heads when the vehicle is a little older.

Two considerations prevail: Mechanical failures are more visually obvious to detect than 'electronic' failures and "If it is not there it cannot go wrong". Electronic aids to vehicles may well improve their performance but they do provide potential to increased malfunction.

As a very fundamental example of all this is the failure of my tail-light following a recent long trip over much corrugations. Aha I thought, surely a filament failure. Not so. It was a fracture of the earth lug attached to a wire tail from the tail lamp. The lug was typically lightweight and the 10cm wire tail provided sufficient vibration to induce a stress fracture. Not very esoteric, but it failed the function nevertheless and had it been vital to the vehicle's operation I may well have been marooned in a remote location.

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:16

Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:16
My middle nephew has a top-of-the-wozza dual cab Chevy Silverado with Cummins and Allison auto - all $170,000 worth - but one faulty sensor caused the main ECU to go into limp-home mode right after he left Halls Creek heading to Broome.

He was stuck on about 50kmh for the whole trip - and if you want to see the definition of fury, you should see my nephew when he talks about it now. He's a bloke who just hates being held up, he does everything full-on.
The problem then was trying to find someone in Broome who had the skills, the correct electronic test equipment, and the repair resources (manuals) to be able to fix it.
They eventually got the problem sorted with extensive assistance from the dealership in Perth.

The problem with complex designs is that they get too far ahead of themselves in the reliability stakes - so the gains made in levels of driving comfort, ease and safety are then negated by niggly faults and high repair costs, as mechanics spend hours trying to figure which component of the 65 sections of the system could be creating the problem.

Then there's the additional high costs to the owner, in the manufacturer having to stock 10,000 extra parts due to the systems complexity.

The same nephew bought a $750,000 new Cat grader a couple of years ago - the latest and greatest in Cat design with no steering wheel, just joysticks, and electronics galore.
This machine has 9 ECU's on it, for major control of various operating systems on the machine.

It went great for 3 weeks, then it wouldn't go over 9kmh. Once again, he was infuriated with it, and got Westrac onto the case.
The Westrac fitters spent 3 weeks on it and couldn't find the problem.
Westrac got onto the Cat factory, and Cat actually flew a senior factory engineer to Perth to sort it out.
He spent 3 days on the machine, and found that due to a software programming fault, one of the ECU's wasn't "talking" to the other ECU's - so it was limiting the grader speed to 9kmh.
The engineer fixed the programming fault and the machine now performs as it should.
However, the whole deal must have cost Cat a lot of money, and it's an example of how something simple can foul up the most sophisticated electronically-controlled designs and systems.
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Follow Up By: Sigmund - Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:24

Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:24
I'm told that a ScanGauge II can reset error codes and stop the limp-home mode. Maybe not on every vehicle.
Never needed it - knock on wood.
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Follow Up By: Slow one - Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 12:14

Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 12:14
Sigmund, the scangauge11 will reset codes on my vehicle, although I would only do it if I really needed to. The biggest problem is people not writing down the fault code before they reset and of course the code cannot be reset if it is a hard one.

Many vehicles go into limp mode because there is a problem such as the internal engine temp, radiator temp or gearbox fluid temp has exceeded the vehicles upper set point. In this case the fault goes away when the temps drop below the set point. Many drive vehicles especially with loads on and have no idea what the temps are and how to control them. I see people state their auto boxes never get hot when in fact they haven't a clue what the boxes temp is. The same goes for internal engine temps.



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Reply By: disco driver - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 11:29

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 11:29
It makes me wonder 'what's the point 'when I read stuff like this.

I am sure that most owners will buy the safest vehicle that they can afford.

That's common sense.

But just because Joe Blow is fortunate enough to be able to buy a vehicle with all the latest elecktrickery etc, doesn't mean that I can afford to update to the same vehicle with only a pension as income.

Consequently my purchase is limited to what I can reasonably afford, bearing in mind my needs, and of course her requirements as well.

It's all very well going on about all the latest safety stuff on the latest vehicles but in reality there's not that many who can afford to update each time something new comes out onto the market.

Most of us have to make do with what we can afford.

Rant Over

Now I feel better

Disco.
AnswerID: 593617

Follow Up By: vk1dx - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 11:41

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 11:41
Exactly my point earlier Disco.

We blew the motor in the 16 year old Maxima in November (just got it back) and all that we could afford was to get it rebuilt. Less that $7K and will last us out.

If either are stuffed from now on that's it! No replacement. Luckily we can afford top notch preventative maintenance and servicing.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Traveller61 - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 12:20

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 12:20
Disco,

The point is many people fail to mention the good safety ratings on new 4wd as opposed to an old 4wd. The magazines make us think you need to spend thousands on mods to be able to travel. My point is those thousands could be better spent on a safer 4wd as the main priority
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Follow Up By: Traveller61 - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 12:22

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 12:22
Disco if you read the original post correctly you will understand the point.
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Follow Up By: disco driver - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 15:25

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 15:25
Doesn't change the fact that people with limited means have to buy the best they can afford............and that includes safety factors in design.

Disco.
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Reply By: Rangiephil - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 13:41

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 13:41
Could I bring some perspective to this thread.

I have posted below a link to the RMS detailing road fatalities in NSW November 2014-Nov 2015.
The rate is 0.5 fatalities per 100MILLION vehicle kilomters, so the chance of a fatal accident is probably less than winning Tatslotto.( And I have had the same numbers for 30years without winning)

You have to be lucky to survive any crash occurring at over 100Kmh and I would point out that airbags are tested at AFAIR 60KMh.

In a head on crash "Might is Right" and the larger heavier vehicle uses the crumple zone of the lighter vehicle. That is why semi trailer drivers nearly always walk away from horrific accidents.

So A it is extremely unlikely that you will be killed in a road accident, B If you are in a 4WD and hit a smaller car than you are more likely to walk away.

I am a bit disturbed by the attitude of some that passive safety is in some way more important than active safety and the ability to drive well.

It frankly seems to me that this has gone all too far where people appear to buy cars on the basis of how many airbags they have, thinking that they will be a VICTIM.

Me I have a 13 year old Discovery 2 which has 2 airbags and seat belt pre tensioners and I like it because it is simple .

http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/dynamic/nsw-road-toll-monthly.pdf

Regards Philip A



AnswerID: 593622

Follow Up By: Rangiephil - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 13:48

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 13:48
BTW once an airbag has gone bang , it has gone.

If say you crash and roll in the desert by driving far too fast, you are only protected for the first landing.
After that you are on your own.
So maybe not putting yourself in the position in the first place is the best idea.

This reminds me of ABS , that has never been proven to reduce accidents, as drivers adapted their driving errors , thinking that the brakes would be better in some way.

Although I must concede that ABS enables Traction Control ( and Stability control) which is IMHO a great thing.
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Follow Up By: Roachie Silverado - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 16:23

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 16:23
Thank goodness for your response Phil!!! I read through all the previous stuff and sat here shaking my head, thinking: "what has the world come to?....everybody seems to be scared of having a crash".

I'm 60 years old and have driven an estimated 2.5 million kilometers over all sorts of roads and tracks across Australia and PNG.....never had an accident! I've never witnessed an air bag go BANG (and hope I never do.

When I go "remote" I am, by FAR, more concerned about dying from some mechanical accident (eg: rollover that crushes me) or getting bitten by a snake or murdered by a jihardist etc....hahaha

Having said that, my current truck (2012 Silverado) does have air bags, traction control, stability control etc etc. and it does give me a sense of confidence....except I'm always a little concerned about some of the electrickery going haywire...EG those stupid bloody MAF sensors; what a stupid invention (insofar as they can force the rig into limp mode).....and don't even get me started on DEF and DPF issues!!!! GGRRRRR
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Follow Up By: Traveller61 - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 16:46

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 16:46
Yes Philip. you are correct. less people dying on our roads due to improved vehicle safety and better roads. My point exactly.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 00:15

Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 00:15
I cannot help but feel that the host of "safety features" of modern vehicles causes some drivers to deceptively feel secure and accordingly relax their driving care, or maybe never learn it in the first place. Ride comfort can also deprive a driver of the "feel" of the vehicle. Certainly, basic features such as seat belts and air bags are significant in reducing injury but some of the more esoteric functions are more advantageous alternatives to skilled driving.

My 2002 Troopy has little in the way of safety options, alas, not even air bags. So with this awareness I consciously drive with appropriate care. At least, being an ex police vehicle, it does have a good internal roll bar. The fact of it being naturally aspirated helps to keep the speed lower too and in any case I am never in a hurry.
The expressions on this forum of overtaking road trains on outback roads tells me a lot about both the speed and risk-taking of some drivers.

Sure, it would be nice to have a vehicle with all the fruit, but...............!
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 08:36

Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 08:36
To put some perspective on your perspective
I understand where you are coming from but you are always going to be better off in a later model version with its safety equipment of the equivalent vehicle you are driving and to try and justify otherwise is just nonsense
Apart from airbags there are numerous other safety aspects in modern vehicles like crumble zones, motors that are designs to impact down under the occupants rather than through them in a head on Etc Etc

There are a variety of reasons why people drive what they do including affordability and suitability and I know I don't drive the safest vehicle available either but please don't try and justify your choice on such a basis

You are not likely to need your first aid kit, spare fan belt, second spare or epirb but you do on assessing the risk.
Omehow want to dismiss this same methodology to vehicle safety

Drive what you want to drive but call a spade a spade
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Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 19:20

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 19:20
One of my sisters and my sister in law both have new Honda Jazz, both have a 5 star ancap rating. I would not like to be in a major accident with that type of vehicle. I think i would stand a better chance in my old 2 airbag Patrol. What about when getting out of your 5 star ANCAP shiny vehicle and get struck and killed by a motorist using on a mobile phone, whilst still holding your door handle? Michael
Patrol 4.2TDi 2003

Retired 2016 and now Out and About!

There's time to rest when you're dead,
Get out and do something instead!

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AnswerID: 593635

Reply By: Life Member TourBoy, Bundaberg - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 20:29

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 20:29
I look at it this way. All testing is done at between 40 and 60kph. Any faster than this then the airbags don't activate in time anyway. How many of us will have a head on at 40 to 60kph (both vehicles doing 20 -30kph to achieve a 40 -60kph impact)? More like two vehicles coming together doing 100kph each = 200kph impact.

Food for thought.
Cheers,
Dave
2010 Isuzu FTS800 Expedition camper
2015 Fortuner
Had 72 cruisers in my time

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AnswerID: 593638

Follow Up By: Slow one - Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 05:34

Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 05:34
Dave
Friend had a mag steer wheel brake on their fwd ute at 100kph pulling the vehicle off the road and straight into a tree. The vehicle hit on the passenger front but the airbag operated in time for her not to hit the steering wheel or anything else. Results were very bad bruising from the seat belt but otherwise nothing else.

The airbag definitely operated in time on this occasion.
1
FollowupID: 861942

Follow Up By: Members - Bow & Nan - Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 08:27

Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 08:27
Seat belt worked not the air bag.
"Work interferes with living"

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Reply By: The Landy - Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 08:44

Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 08:44
Whilst understanding the "theme" of the thread, I can't help but feel that driver attitudes and approach to driving has declined, and for sure, that is a subjective judgement on my part.

Consequently, is there a risk we have created the "my car is invincible" mentality, so I can drive more aggressively on the road - the car will save me, won't it?

But on "Old versus New" I suspect most buy the vehicle that suits them best within the budget constraints they have, and whilst safety might form part of the decision making process, I'm not sure it is a primary consideration, unless you have imposts such as visiting work sites that require certain ANCAP ratings.

I suspect the average four-wheel drive tourer will more likely be thinking better value lies in setting up a vehicle that suits the purpose rather than than safety...

Food for thought though, Baz - The Landy
AnswerID: 593650

Follow Up By: Jackolux - Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 09:20

Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 09:20
Baz , l really don't thing many if anyone would really think ( "my car is invincible" )
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 10:58

Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 10:58
Volvo recently made a statement that within 10 years you would not be able to have an accident in one of their cars.
So I guess they won't need air bags and seat belts, so that will be a big saving :-)

Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 Motorhome.
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Follow Up By: Member - Scott M (NSW) - Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 12:22

Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 12:22
"Baz , l really don't thing many if anyone would really think ( "my car is invincible" )"

Not invincible, however I've often commented that if I had an accident in the 40 series, they'd probably hose me out of the interior and then drive the bloody thing away....
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FollowupID: 861953

Follow Up By: The Landy - Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 13:47

Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 13:47
Jackolux

Should drive the M2 freeway with me one day, there are people throwing caution to the wind, reckless comes to mind!

I can only speculate that they think their car is "invincible" I guess...but my observation is that they better be as many drivers are an accident waiting to happen!

Cheers, Baz
1
FollowupID: 861955

Follow Up By: Jackolux - Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 15:48

Thursday, Dec 10, 2015 at 15:48
Well Baz , l don't need to drive the M2., I ride a 1300cc Road Bike , l bet l spend more time watching dodging and trying to anticipate what every other vehicle is going to do than most other people .

I have just now returned from riding into Melbourne and back home 210k . No close calls today , but there has been many ,

I do a lot of K's a year on the bike .

The best l saw today was a young P plate, bloke overtake me on the Monash , l was doing 103k by my GPS , yep 3k over , he would of had to be doing at least 110k , BUT he had a sheet of paper in one hand and texting on his phone with the other .

I see this sort of crap all the time , l don't believe it makes any difference what or how old their car is
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FollowupID: 861959

Reply By: Hairy (NT) - Saturday, Dec 12, 2015 at 16:13

Saturday, Dec 12, 2015 at 16:13
"From personal experience, there is no way in the world I would put my family in a 4WD that has no air bags and a zero ANCAP safety rating"
Just curios? What did you do before air bags and ANCAP ratings?
AnswerID: 593727

Follow Up By: Member - Blue M - Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 03:34

Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 03:34
We must have all stayed at home.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 862056

Follow Up By: garrycol - Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 13:22

Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 13:22
The road toll was 3-5 times what it is now.
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FollowupID: 862075

Reply By: The Bantam - Saturday, Dec 12, 2015 at 17:01

Saturday, Dec 12, 2015 at 17:01
We live in a time where in western society, people seem to intensly desire "protection" and "safety" or at least very strong reassurance that they will be "safe" and "protected".

We see and hear the words " Safe" and "Protect", being used more and more in advertising and political speaking.

But very few people grasp the concept of risk managment, likelhood, frequency and consequence...... even less the methods of effectivly managng the real risks.

If you want to feel "Safe" and "Protected" ...... swallow the advertising hook line and sinker and buy that new whatever ...... because it is sure to be "safer" or offer "better protection".

If you want to manage your risks effectively and do something real to reduce likleyhood and consequence of verious events ...... you will look a long way further than swallowing the whole concept of the safety and protection auction.

One example is the pedestrian lobby, banging on about the agressivness of 4wds toward pedestrians ........ truth to tell in Australia, animal strike is a far higher likleyhood and frequency than pedestrian involvement and it can be argued that once frequency is accounted for consequence is equally high.

If you are concerned because you do not have the latest " safety and protection" provided by the latest 5 star rated vehicle ...... but you are towing near maximim capacity ..... you have your priorities wrong.
If you are running a vehicle and trailer that are not 100% unconditionally stable at 100Kmh ....... you are barking up the wrong tree by depending on electronic stability measures.

You can reduce you risks dramaticly, be making sure your rig is loaded well under its rated capacity and has not needed a GVM upgrade, keeping your trailer of van under 2/3 of the vehicles rated towing capacity.

AND so forth.

Time after time we are hearing of people looking for a GVM upgrade, or finding that their vehicle or combination are over weight OR people complaining that they have stability problems ........ even worse we have people driving rigs that are unstable, overloaded or otherwise dangerous and oblivious to the matter.

Proper and real risk managment is YOUR responsibility ....... the advertisers will try and sell you "safety and protection" ....... but, regardless of the real benifits of the product, the majority of what they are selling is false assurance.

cheers
AnswerID: 593731

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Dec 12, 2015 at 17:05

Saturday, Dec 12, 2015 at 17:05
OH and remember ....... all these 4wd magazines have an axe to grind ........ they are paid by sponsors and very little of what they say can be considered independednt and unbiased.

cheers
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FollowupID: 862038

Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Dec 12, 2015 at 21:08

Saturday, Dec 12, 2015 at 21:08
The latest in safety devices and airbags did nothing for these people in this Commodore.

Three dead in Darwin head-on crash with bus

If you drive sensibly according to conditions and regulations, and understand the best avoidance techniques when you come across an idiot disobeying every rule in the book, you shouldn't need the very latest in safety devices.

When driving in my old WB Holden ute in the 1980's, I came face to face with an imbecile in a Landcruiser traytop, towing a 2 tonne tandem trailer, on the crest of a sharp rise on the Goldfields Hwy North of Kalgoorlie - when that imbecile was overtaking a bus on the crest of that rise.

At a closing speed of 220kmh, it was a near thing. At that speed we were closing at 60M a second.
He appeared directly in front of me, and we both had about 4 seconds to make a decision.
I braked heavily and locked onto his face to see where he planned to go. I was ready to swerve the opposite direction to him.
I saw he was looking to his right and starting to head that way.
I kept right, and passed between him and the bus as he headed right - off the shoulder and into the roadside drain.
He never stopped, he just kept the pedal to the metal and pulled back onto the road.

I was so angry I actually turned around and chased him for 10 k's - I was angry enough to run him off the road and beat the crap out of him.
He wouldn't stop, and it was probably a good thing for both of us.
On that same section of road only a couple of years previously, 3 people were killed instantly in a head-on, when someone pulled the same stunt.
There's no safety device around that will save you when you hit a solid object at highway speed.
The rapid deceleration merely tears your organs apart, particularly the heart and the aorta.

New vehicles contain a lot of hi-tech safety devices and are nice to have - but nothing has changed in the level of idiocy, of the drongo behind the wheel.
I do think that the multitude of modern safety devices in vehicles are making many drivers feel invincible.
1
FollowupID: 862045

Reply By: Hairy (NT) - Saturday, Dec 12, 2015 at 17:19

Saturday, Dec 12, 2015 at 17:19
and keeping your trailer or van under 1/2 of the vehicles rated towing capacity would be safer again, as would travelling at 1/2 the speed..........so would wearing a crash helmet.....where do you stop?


Like you said.....Its all about risk management
AnswerID: 593733

Reply By: equinox - Saturday, Dec 12, 2015 at 18:22

Saturday, Dec 12, 2015 at 18:22
Most people on the thread including the OP are mentioning "we" and "family" and I imagine trying to sustain other people lives would put safety right up there.

Us single bloke's, well me anyway, just want to go out and explore the bush. Safety comes a definite third place, after performance and reliability.
cheers
Alan

Looking for adventure.
In whatever comes our way.
"Outback Yonder"


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AnswerID: 593736

Follow Up By: Sigmund - Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:55

Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:55
Safety and performance are by no means mutually exclusive.

Add low cost and maybe the three are.
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FollowupID: 862189

Reply By: Slow one - Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 06:37

Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 06:37
Well, I guess it is peoples choice what they want in a vehicle safety wise, one thing is with the combination of a lot of factors our road toll has been reduced significantly over the years. Many will remember the introduction of seat belts and the statements that in certain circumstances they can kill. The big problem with that is, the amount of lives they save far out weighs the amount of people they kill.

Crumple zones and a rigid cabin are another huge life saver, this has been proven many times, add all these things together, plus others it adds up to the saving of lives and many have walked away with far lesser injuries.

"Australia’s road toll fell to its lowest level in almost 70 years in 2014 and the national rate of road deaths per 100,000 people dipped to the lowest level since records began 90 years ago."

"Although air bags can protect a person under the right circumstances, they can also injure or even kill. The benefit of an air bag is maximized for people who have buckled up their seat belts and have kept children (12 and under) in rear seats, also buckled up. According to the NHTSA, nearly all air bag-related deaths have involved occupants who have been unrestrained or improperly restrained. The combined use of an air bag and seat belt has been found to reduce the risk of serious head injury by 83 percent."

I never think about it but I know if I have an accident I am happy to have all the bits around me that may leave me less injured.
AnswerID: 593751

Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 07:45

Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 07:45
You are contaminating this thread with facts. The general ghist that I have picked up is that people who prefer safe cars are extremely reckless in their driving habits, and those who have cars without safety gear, simply choose not to have accidents. If you can keep within those parameters then we can continue our bashing of modern technology and safety feature obsessed drivers. There have been other facts in the thread, air bags do only deploy once. Therefore I would warn all those drivers in safe cars to consider not having accidents, or at the very least, to choose the accidents very carefully because you are toast if the accident requires the airbag to redeploy.
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FollowupID: 862059

Follow Up By: Slow one - Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 08:32

Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 08:32
Micheal H, I love it "people simply choose not to have accidents" have you got any facts on that statement.

By the way, do you have any facts on the " people who prefer safe cars are extremely reckless in their driving habits".



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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 08:38

Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 08:38
I just read it in a lot of the the earlier replies. That's why I thought your reply was out of place because it had some facts.
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FollowupID: 862062

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 08:49

Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 08:49
I have certainly never "chosen to have an accident".
To the contrary, I avoid them like the plague!
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Slow one - Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 09:27

Sunday, Dec 13, 2015 at 09:27
Micheal, looks like I misread your post. Sometimes the written word doesn't reflect what the person has wanters to convey.

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