High road toll in NSW last year,!

Submitted: Sunday, Jan 17, 2016 at 19:51
ThreadID: 131389 Views:2684 Replies:7 FollowUps:33
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After coming down the M1 To-Day I can see why!, My first concern was a 200 series Toyo to
wing a twenty foot van passed me at a speed I reckoned would have to been at least 130Kph

I thought ," you have the Grunt ol son, but your a bloody idiot"

Next was the opposite!, Two lanes of traffic going great ,110 zone everyone sticking to that whether their passing or whatever, until!, someone decides to come into the equation and have a Sunday drive at 80kph, then all the mad braking and risky passing all starts.

I thought most trucks had speed limiters to 100k fitted, Me thinks some dodgy chit goes on there..lol.

In 3hrs I saw three caravans with blown tyres, If the weight is right and the speed , Good tyres these days don't usually give trouble ?,

A bit of a rant I know, But its the risk taking and lack of concentration that seems to never end!

Cheers Axle.
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Reply By: Member - Mark (Tamworth NSW) - Sunday, Jan 17, 2016 at 20:40

Sunday, Jan 17, 2016 at 20:40
Axle
Blown Caravan tyres could be a function of people assessing their caravan tyres being "good" because they have plenty of tread left. The fact they are 10 years old and showing signs of cracking wouldn't be a consideration (wasn't to my father until I pointed that out to him)
I think speed limiters are a requirement of NSW registered heavy vehicles. Hopefully someone in the trucking industry can confirm or deny that
Mark
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Reply By: Slow one - Sunday, Jan 17, 2016 at 22:03

Sunday, Jan 17, 2016 at 22:03
WOW, I am the same as you. I hate caravans, I hate people that don't travel at the same speed I do and I hate trucks. Hope you stopped and asked those evil caravan people why they were changing a tyre and could you help.

Awesome and I remember your post about roundabouts as well. Have you learnt to indicate off roundabouts, because they made that rule to annoy you as well, or did they make it to let others know what you were going to do next.

Life is tough when you travel in the fast lane and you should chill, if that is all that worries you have.






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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 07:48

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 07:48
I love the way drivers indicate into the roundabout when not changing direction, and merely driving through, you think they are turning right so you pause if they have the right of way and they drive straight on. Also some drivers get upset if others enter the roundabout a split second after they do, as if its now 'their' roundabout till they have left it. Technically 4 cars can use the roundabout at any given time regardless of someones perceived 'split second' legal advantage. Roundabouts are designed to be used by multiple car at one time! Michael
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Follow Up By: Slow one - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 09:03

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 09:03
Agree Michael, I wish people would know the correct indicator signals for roundabouts, They are simple and really let others know your intension. Used correctly they really keep the traffic flowing until that traffic gets to heavy. I know of a couple of roundabouts that have lights on them that only operate at peak times of the day. I have also observed P platers are much better using their indicators at roundabouts than many older drivers.

Big thumbs up to the P plater that followed me in the rain yesterday. He or she kept a very safe distance between us the whole time.


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Follow Up By: Ron N - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 13:09

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 13:09
What gets right up my nose is those people (seems like women are the worst offenders), who upon arriving at a nearly empty roundabout, have to stop and look both ways!!

For crying out loud, the basis of a roundabout is keeping moving and slotting in, to the available gaps!
It's perfectly legal to pull in front of a car entering a roundabout if there's a couple of car lengths room. You don't need to have 200M clearance between vehicles!

The funniest performance I've encountered was on the Greek Island of Kos a couple of years ago.
We hired a car, and the bloke asked if we were Australian. He obviously picked up on our accents, and he'd probably lived in Australia, too - as so many Greeks seemed to have done.

He goes on to say, "Ahh! O.K.! - here in Greece, we have a different law for roundabouts, as compared to Australia!

Here, cars ON the roundabout, have to GIVE WAY to cars ENTERING the roundabout!

Now, this may present a little problem for you to adjust to! - but we also have a bigger problem!

We have 102 nationalities visiting Greece at any one time! - and you will find that they are all using any one of those 102 different road rules, from their own country, as well! LOL

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 17:48

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 17:48
Ron !
We execute roundabouts badly in NSW and it doesnt look much better in other states, I've been to England a few times and the Poms do it beautifully, in sync with each other and at considerable speed. Michael
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Follow Up By: axle - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 17:51

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 17:51
Slow One!, Good to see you agreeing with what I say!,....as always your so polite and always read the post with know idea what I mean,..Mate all I was commenting on was some things a lot of drivers out there do that have and could contribute to the increasing road Toll ...But don't worry mate you continue on your merry way , and i'll chill out!


Axle.

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Reply By: Baz - The Landy - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 07:29

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 07:29
This sums it up...

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
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Follow Up By: Nutta - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 22:41

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 22:41
Couldnt agree more, then you hear they are cracking down on tailgating, if these tools got out of the way problem solved!
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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 23:54

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 23:54
Yes Baz, that article is so true. It's the main reason they can drive so fast on fairly congested roads and we are stuck with 100kph on deserted ones. We get the speed limits we deserve in my opinion. Still it could be worse.... I heard they are running information classes for Syrian refugees in Germany telling them, among other things, that red lights actually do mean stop, it's a rule not a guideline. :-)
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Follow Up By: Member - Scott M (NSW) - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 22:17

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 22:17
Baz, couldn't agree more. Headed up to the mid North Coast last Thursday.... coming up the other side of the Hawkesbury bridge, twice hit three trucks ( well over 15 tons) 3 abreast doing less than 90k's up the hill all trying to overtake each other. Same thing happened the other side of Jolls bridge. The pile up of cars behind them were all trying to guess which one was going to win and were jockeying to get in that lane. Total effing mess.
My understanding is anything over 8 tonnes is banned from the right lane on a 3 lane expressway. Cops should enforce that rather than have those 2 silly speed cameras at the top of the hill within 100 yards of each other.
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Reply By: vk1dx - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 08:03

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 08:03
It wont change. I recall listening to John Laws on the radio going on about right hand hogs. That was 1974 and they are still doing it.

And some of the ranters are just as bad. An example; I was driving next to a mate and listenin to him on the radio (VHF ham channel) raving on about tailgating. He was less than a cars length from the car in front and we were all doing 80 K in the middle of Canberra. People don't change their spots much do they.

I think that we all have our moments when we have a rant. Some call it blowing off steam. I don't mind reading about it. Maybe putting pen to paper, to coin an old phrase, will help.

It's no wonder we like to "get away". On our last trip; not one tailgater, speeder, right hand hog or loud doof-doof car was seen in a whole five days of just wandering along at a maximum of a whopping 30KHP. Oh did I forget to mention where we were - Ooops - It was the Madigan Line. Sorry about that.

Have a nice drive.

Phil (another good day)
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Reply By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 14:06

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 14:06
A big part of the problem is the governments failure to provide meaningfull enforcement or meaningfull public education. ..... and this is right across all government functions.

The legeslators are happy to pass stricter and stricter laws, and higher and higher penalties, but they are not prepared to spend money on public education, and reluctant to spend on enforcement except when money can be made out of it or its a vote winner.

So ..... unless you are drink driving, speeding or running certain red lights you have bugger all chance of getting caught for anything. ...... that is unless you are branded a hoon ..... then they will take ya car off you and crush it for having a noisy exhaust and leaving one too many sets of 11s on the road.

We don't see regular TV adds informing people about changes to road rules, or prodding people about good driving practice.
.
we see lies like " every K over is a killer", used to justify very profitable speed enforcement programes.
We see shock and fear road toll adds ..... that are proven not to work and young people consider a joke.
.
Mean while a large proportion of the driving public have very poor knoweledge of the road rules.
.
I think I'm fairly up to date, because I do keep my self up to date & I have taken a driving test in the last 5 years, But there are thousands of drivers out there who have not opened a road rules book since they passed their original drivers test decades ago.

While we see planty of effort put into the very profitable enforcement of speeding, there are a hole pile of very basic driving offences that go unenforced.

SO we see every day, 4wds and other vehicles that are obvioulsy illegally modified ( not just a bit but very obvioulsy) just driving around, nearly every night cars with one headlight out, every damn night people driving with their fog lights on with their low beam, failing to keep left, failing to indicate, illegal U turns at traffic lights, following too closely and so on ...... fairly minor offences some may think ...... but in such huge volume.
Then the major life endangering offences like passing on double whites, people driving straight thru very red lights and stop & give way signs.
.
When I was a young bloke ..... not that long ago..... every self respecting young yob knew to keep his nose clean of basic driving offences ..... because there was a very good chance of getting zipped.


Without propper public information and enforcement ..... none of this will improve.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Dave(NSW) - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 16:37

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 16:37
And most of those things you mentioned create road rage as they frustrate other road users.
GU RULES!!

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Follow Up By: Mick O - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 17:03

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 17:03
Hmmmm. let's see. Three times as many cars and drivers on the road in Victoria as there were in 1975 yet the road toll is 200 where it used to be 1000. Improvements in vehicle safety would account for some of that but for this to be the case, the introduction of legislative change around road use, speed and safety, coupled with the vast public education program around speeding, drink and drug driving and distraction, the largest contributing factors to death and injury on our roads, must have worked. It's either that or divine intervention and I reckon the big fella's got his hands full with more pressing matters at the moment. Certainly the rush to his gates have slowed down from road trauma in this state for sure!

Cheers

Mick
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trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 00:34

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 00:34
Actually if you realy look at it ... the vast majority of the savings in road deaths will be due to vastly improved vehicle safety, followed by vastly improved roads., and vastly improved emergency medical care.

I seem to remember that seat belts where only compulsory in all states from 1972. self adjusting retracting seatbelts where neither compulsory or widely installed.

In 1975 most cars on the road did not have side intrusion bars or crumple zones.

Colapsable steering collumns where not universally installed. ... many died because of chest or facial injuries from rigid streeing collums

A lot of vehicles of the period had reputations for horriffic lower limb injuries, that often resulted in rapid blood loss.

In 1975, a very large proportion of the australian vehicle fleet would have been on crossply tyres and drum brakes.

Well into the 80's most of the fast high performance cars where a real handfull and tretcherous as hell. they killed many youg men. .....

The motorbikes where even worse... the Kawasaki MK3 500, the fastest production bike of 1974 did 170+Mph on drum brakes, but it did corner better than the Honda 4 750 that the police where riding.

While the second edition of the Australian Design Rules came into effect in 1969 ...... their use was not nationally legeslated till 1989.

It takes decades for new and safer cars to replace the older ones in the national car fleet.

By 1995 in QLD more than 600 died each year on our roads.

Speaking of roads.
Into the late 80's most of the main highway from Brisbane to the Gold Coast was still a two lane undivided road, likewise many other of our main highways.
That road is now 6 lanes most of the way with a wide hard shoulder and a concrete barrier up the centre.
The coast highway Brisbane to Sydney was a horror stretch that accounted for many deaths each year and the Newel was not a hell of a lot better.

The highway Brisbane to Townsville had numerous low level bridges that where not even current minimum road width with no more than a double white line down the middle and white painted wooden rails on the sides ..... my sisters husband could tell you exactly how many and name each one as he drove that road regularly.

then there was the Mulbrough stretch ..... a lot of people died on that before it was completely remade.

We did not have modern high traction pavements and a lot of our highways where little more than a couple of coats of spray seal.

Then there is emergency medicine ....... In the late 70's when my brother was knocked off his Suzuki by a truck ...and broke a leg in 5 places... he was taken to hospital in a converted station waggon crewed by a single ambulance man ...... who was trained in little more than advanced first aid and had little more than some bandages and some laughing gas to work with.

These days ALL ambulances have two man crews and are properly traineed paramedics with well equiped facilities on board.....who can properly stabilise a patient before they transport them to far better equiped emergency wards.

A couple of years ago, I pulled up to assist at an accident on the freeway ....... a young bloke had bounced this car off both road barriers, there was not a straight panel on the car including the roof, most of the glass was gone and all the wheels pointed in different directions .... thanks to the well designed vehice, the seat belts and airbags both the driver and pasenger walked away with barely a scratch.

If they had been in a Torana or a Cortina ...... they would have been in a very bad way indeed.

The poloticians would like to tell us that their speeding fund raising and there piffling advertsing is doing the heavy lifting ........ that is rubbish.

We need a more visable police presence on the roads, enforcing more than speeding and drink driving.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Baz - The Landy - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 08:28

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 08:28
The reality is that when you are issued a licence you are obligated to make sure that you meet the requirements to exercise the privileges vested in it.

This means keeping up-to-date with any changes.

Individuals are required to invest the time to make sure they are proficient and up-to-date with the rules of the road, or (eventually) suffer the consequences if they aren’t. And the consequences might be a ticket from Inspector Plod, a fast trip to hospital in an emergency ambulance – or worse, a slow trip in a long black vehicle, your last road trip!

And I have found that any major changes to road rules have always been well communicated by authorities.

I’m sure there will be many that will advocate that all drivers undertake recurrent training.

Perhaps we should introduce a theory test that covers the "rules of the road" each time you renew your licence, much the same as the eye test you do, no pass, no licence renewal – I’m sure this has been canvassed on many occasions, but I’m not sure that is the answer…

Road safety remains everyone’s personal responsibility.

Do we need a police car on every corner to ensure people meet the rules of the road?

All that would do is divert resources away from other policing duties – no the buck stops with the driver and the system relies on their integrity to understand, follow, and obey road rules.

But here is the thing on speeding and fines. If it was all about revenue there would be far more speed cameras on the road, both fixed and mobile. I simply don’t buy the revenue raising argument, besides the costs to the community from road accidents would far outstrip any revenue generated from speeding and red-light camera fines (I’ll leave you to do the maths).

And I’ll add…

Where I live, I’d be happy to fund a fixed speed camera on our street, outside our home! It is a 50-kilometre an hour street, has a nursing home nearby, and children around due to a local kindergarten being in proximity.

Daily people take the liberty of travelling well in excess of the speed limit – with little regard for the community they are passing through, all because their time is more important than our community’s safety, seemingly!


Phew…my two bob’s worth anyway…

Baz – The Landy
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 08:49

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 08:49
How are road rule changes "well communicated"?
I have wondering for years why they can't include rule changes for the preceding 12 months with our registration renewals, not hard to do in this age of computers!

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Follow Up By: Baz - The Landy - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 09:11

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 09:11
Here is an example...

But I don't intend to speak for Transport NSW, so I won't, my point is that information is readily available.

Road Safety NSW

Cheers, Baz - The Landy

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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 09:37

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 09:37
You can go on all you like about the responsibilities of the driver and the buck stopping wherever ........ that is the typical government line and it is not worth a damn thing ...... because there IS wide spread and willing ignorance about road rules.

As for speed cameras beeing fund raising ...... well some of the governments have stopped denying it.

If the government realy wanted to reduce speed in high risk areas there are a number of methods that are much more effective that speed cameras ...... but they don't make money.

When the government has manipulated the fine thresholds to make more money out of lower range speeding offences and are prosecuting more lower range speeding offences, it is obvious what it is all about .

As Far as I have been able to establish, the QLD government has recieved arround $120 million in revenue from speed cameras in 2014. and the revenue rises every year.

So if speed cameras are suposed to be about reducing speeding ...... speed cameras are not particularly effective.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Baz - The Landy - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:02

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:02
Bantam

Ignorance is never a good excuse for anything…

Isn’t it the responsibility of the driver to follow the road rules – only the person behind the wheel can comply with the road rules?

Ultimately, that is where the buck stops – the driver!

Mind you, I’ve made my point and accept not all will be in agreement, so I’ll rest at that…

Cheers, Baz – The Landy
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 22:01

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 22:01
As I said you can talk about the responsibility of the driver alll you like ........ that does not a damn thing for the ignorant and irresposnible.

The ignorant need to bee spoon fed and the irresposnible only understand effective enforcment.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Scott M (NSW) - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 22:25

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 22:25
Bantam, I would take issue with you on the statement that a Mk3 cornered better than anything. Hellishly fast in a straight line, but frightening in a corner. Hell my neice could corner better than one of those things on her tricycle.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Jan 20, 2016 at 15:10

Wednesday, Jan 20, 2016 at 15:10
Yeh My brother had one ...... gave him his first broken leg ........ lots of things did not go round corners well back then. ...... I'll leave it to others what was worse.

Was was sure though ....... orthapedic wards where full of blokes with broken arms and legs from motorbike accidents back then.

cheers
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Reply By: Gronk - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 15:59

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 15:59
I have a 200 series and I have towed a small van at up to 130 k/ph. Not normally, because I'm afraid of the speeding fine, but I didn't feel like a "bloody idiot " when I was doing it.

I was more afraid of some "bloody idiot" doing 100 k/ph pulling out in front of me !!! LOL
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Follow Up By: skulldug - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 17:22

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 17:22
Drives like an idiot, sounds like an idiot, doesn't realise they are an idiot..... Let me see.
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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:08

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:08
Gronk

A 200 series has plenty of power but is not a sports car and they are, like most other 4X4s, prone to rolling. 130km/h is too fast whether towing or not.

NT has a 130km/h speed limit and also has an appalling number of serious road crashes.
As a result my comprehensive insurance cost me double what it did in SA.
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:37

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:37
Everyones entitled to an opinion. Whether I agree with another persons opinion is my choice.

Towing a 3 T van with a dual cab 4wd is unsafe as well, but because it is "legal", people do it all the time.

If you feel unsafe at 130 k/ph, that's fine, but to say it's too fast is entirely your opinion.
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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 12:50

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 12:50
Gronk

There is plenty of scientific research to back up my opinion. Those that have an opinion that it is safe do not understand Newtons Law.

We could debate this for hours and I would not change your opinion so we could agree to disagree.
My opinion is based on:
1. Study of the research which has been conducted into crashes.
2. 35 years as a police officer, in which time I investigated serious road crashes, including fatal crashes. (Some of those were Landcruiser that had rolled due to excessive speed)
3. 48 years driving experience.


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Follow Up By: Gronk - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 14:19

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 14:19
You of all people will know that doing 130 k/ph does not make a car or 4wd roll over. Especially on the flat open roads of the NT. I know Newtons law, and if you want to bring out that argument , no speed is really safe.

A 4wd towing a van at 80 k/ph can be inherently unstable, and please don't say any speed over the posted speed limit is excessive....illegal for sure, but in the right area, not excessive.

(Some of those were Landcruiser that had rolled due to excessive speed)

That is a rather loose statement, as I guarentee a Landcruiser driven in a straight line at 150 k/ph would not roll. But I also guarentee I could make a Landcruiser roll at 50 k/ph..

You beat me by 8 yrs of driving experience,so I'm nowhere as experienced as you.

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Follow Up By: Member - Ups and Downs - Wednesday, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:37

Wednesday, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:37
We see in the news frequently Landcruisers driven to/from 'communities' that rollover.
How sober were the drivers?
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Wednesday, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:28

Wednesday, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:28
Sometimes a fact not reported.
Or a Landcruiser towing a large van that got into trouble, through no fault of the 4wd.
Or someone swerving to avoid a kanga ?
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Reply By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 20:39

Monday, Jan 18, 2016 at 20:39
Interesting thread, thanks Axle. Now that I'm retired and no longer mixing it with the peak hour loony tunes I can take it a little easier. I think that the roads have gotten a lot safer as have cars but there will always be that "I'm alright Jack" driving to the annoyance of all around him/her. They are an absolute nuisance and they will not be educated because it is everyone else that has the problem, hell we even create laws against educating this person which falls under road rage, on last check included a nasty look out of the corner of your eye. There is no way this will improve as it seems culturally ingrained. A tougher stance by the authorities always seems misdirected and there will always be inconsiderate people that feel they need a piece of road no matter what.

Kind regards
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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:14

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:14
Beatit. I agree but I have also seen some very considerate drivers. A little bit of courtesy and consideration goes a long way. Most people fail to realise that a driver's licence is a privilege, not a right. Part of the responsibility of having a licence is to know the road rules and comply with them. The rules include driving with consideration for other road users.

Luckily the idiots that think they own the road are in the minority and the courteous drivers are the majority. I hope that doesn't change.
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 14:52

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 14:52
"Most people fail to realise that a driver's licence is a privilege, not a right."

Who says - is it written into the legislation. If I meet the requirements it is my right to have a licence. The term privilege implies some discretionary power is applied which is not.

It is not a privilege but a right given under law on the basis that certain requirements are met - if they are not met you loose your right.
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Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 15:44

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 15:44
A "Right" is something that is enshrined in law (legislation). This is something that can not be removed or taken away.

A "privilege" is something that can be taken away if the conditions under which it is issued/granted are abused.

If you break the law in relation to driving - you get fined, loose points until they eventuall take your license away (sometimes they give it back).

Not every one is entitled to possess a drivers licence.

Cheers

Anthony

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Follow Up By: garrycol - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 15:54

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 15:54
Says who :-)
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Follow Up By: Baz - The Landy - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 16:18

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 16:18
Garry...

It is fair to say that you have a “right” to apply for a licence – but its issuance implies no ongoing right for you to hold it. That becomes a privilege…

If a licence is granted to you, your responsibility is to meet the conditions of its issuance as required by law, otherwise the “privileges” vested in the licence will be revoked (which could happen for any number of reasons).

So perhaps everyone is a winner here, if we can all squeeze through the legalese…

Cheers, Baz – The Landy
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Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 16:57

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 16:57
Well! Actually not me Garry

However; if you do decide to do some research, you will find that these are the accepted definitions as applied under "Common Law". You know the principle under which we all live.

Unfortunately, as is common on Internet Forums, everyone is an expert and only one "opinion" counts - theirs!

You may now Seek Leave to Appeal!

Cheers

Anthony
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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 17:10

Tuesday, Jan 19, 2016 at 17:10
garrycol

When I stated that it is a privilege, not a right I was quoting a legal precedent. In other words it is common law as explained by Anthony above.


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