Simpson Desert hand back today. Inc Camp 6

Submitted: Monday, Jun 06, 2016 at 16:00
ThreadID: 132662 Views:3183 Replies:6 FollowUps:21
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More of the Simpson Desert was handed back today.

This parcel of land includes part of the Madigan Line. including Camp 6.

Another piece of Simpson Desert handed back
It looks likely that access to Camp 6 won't be available now. Given the restricted access to the other camps.

The area in the blue line is the section handed back as far as I can figure.
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Reply By: vk1dx - Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 09:12

Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 09:12
Good on them and I hope that they look after the place. We enjoyed our drive through the upper Simpson last year and will go back.

Re access: If you read the article at the link in BB's post you will see the following near the bottom; "The traditional owners already look after that country but now it’s ours we can control visitors’ behaviour a bit better because they will have to have a permit."

That tells me that access with a permit is still possible.

I don't think that the locals want to keep us out, but just not in their sacred areas. Well that's fine by me, we don't like visitors to our churches walking all over the sacristy and "sacred" areas either. Nor do I appreciate people just wandering into my back yard etc.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 09:46

Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 09:46
Phil said: 'That tells me that access with a permit is still possible.'

Possibly Phil, I hope so. I guess time will tell. That quote is from Lindsay Bookie who died just under 2 years ago. I can see why they would want to control rubbish and access to a certain degree. Though I would have thought that anyone experienced enough to do the Madigan would respect the country anyway. Maybe not.

I was a bit surprised to see Lindsay quoted in a CLC press release. I am not anywhere near an expert on this stuff but I thought a dead Aboriginal person could not be named, and here it is in a CLC press release quoted with name.


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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 10:32

Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 10:32
I just sent an email to the reporter Elke etc. We shall see what the paper says.

I may even call the CLC

Phil
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Follow Up By: oetkb - Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 16:09

Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 16:09
Spoke to Lindsay at Batton Hill just a few weeks before he passed away. Was incredibly impressed with the vision he had for his people and could also understand the frustrations he felt, and what he had to deal with over the many years he was on the CLC. He said "We are asset rich with an amazing opportunity to develop tourism" in amongst a few other deep and profound comments on many topics. Unfortunately this country has lost a great leader.
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Thursday, Jun 09, 2016 at 18:27

Thursday, Jun 09, 2016 at 18:27
I got an excellent response from Elke.

Elke said: "I’m not aware of any disagreement with Mr Bookie’s comments"

Phil
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 10:14

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 10:14
That's a real shame , I never accepted that any large chunks of Australia should be handed to anyone, or any group (e.g. national parks), such that the effective outcome is loss of access to other sections of the population.




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Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Thursday, Jun 09, 2016 at 16:51

Thursday, Jun 09, 2016 at 16:51
So you don't like National Parks being given back to the Traditional Owners.

Luckily for us the Traditional Owners allowed Kakadu to become a National Park.

Shallow thinking if you ask me.
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Reply By: backtracks - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 15:51

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 15:51
I wouldn't be so sure about continued access. The recent ban on traveling to geosurvey hill from the Madigan line tells a different story !
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Reply By: Member - Ups and Downs - Thursday, Jun 09, 2016 at 13:20

Thursday, Jun 09, 2016 at 13:20
What gets up my nose is that certain people get 'their' exclusive access, but can then still claim 'white fellas' money on the dole etc living many miles away from that land.

Surely it should be one, or the other:
Land to live on like their ancestors, or be part of the 21st century under the same rules as the rest of us. A foot in each camp isn't right.

However that makes me a racist I suppose. Not supposed to talk about these things,eh?
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Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Thursday, Jun 09, 2016 at 17:20

Thursday, Jun 09, 2016 at 17:20
Maybe if you got your facts right, did some research and stop being a bigot, it wouldn't get that far up your nose.
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Thursday, Jun 09, 2016 at 17:52

Thursday, Jun 09, 2016 at 17:52
Up and down, many Australians should read the factual history of this country and not the history we were taught at school and we still are.

You might be surprised what happened to these people and the amount of problems we have caused, from slavery to genocide and onto the shifting of these people into places they never came from. What you see is 200 years of their destruction.

Can you go onto a property owners land without permission. NO. Remember this was their land and it was taken from them.

I am not a do gooder by a long way, but I have lived with these people and have seen both sides of the coin.

Just ask yourself and others to look into the real history of these people without any forgone conclusions.

Please everyone, open your minds as to why this has all come to pass, especially the reliance of government payments.









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Follow Up By: oetkb - Thursday, Jun 09, 2016 at 20:55

Thursday, Jun 09, 2016 at 20:55
Perhaps something to think about.
What has happened to our indigenous people has been nothing but horrific, I don't know anyone that can or will deny that fact, its irrefutable.
At some stage though it's time to stop looking at the past and to start looking at the future. Our country cant continue to look back at our indiscretions for the next 200 years and use the past as a weapon that keeps us divided. Our various governments have had mixed attempts and results with various programs that they have tried to run in the last 20 years to assist our indigenous people.
A positive future needs to come from within the indigenous population, they need to be able to lead themselves forward whilst utilising the assets of Government, mining, and voluntary organisations just to name a few.
My numbers may be wrong but I believe that Lindsay was on the CLC for 14 years and was president for quite a few of those years. As the president himself he couldn't get off the ground the incentives and plans that would have helped his race. Instead he privately went commercial on a small scale and led by example and tried to show others how it could be done.

I know that a lot of people will go back to mentioning the destructive history that has gone on for so long and say that its not the aboriginals fault the way things are but I have to ask how long can people continue to live in the past?

I worked with an indigenous guy for a while whilst he was studying to become a teacher we had many discussions about the support the government is willing to supply.

Free university. No HECS debt ever.
ABStudy allowance.
Housing allowance.
Incredibly low percentage loans when buying a house or starting a business.
Special considerations whilst studying to allow him more time to finish assignments.
His ENTER score was way below the cut off for his teaching degree but he was given special consideration and accepted.

I don't begrudge any of this at all because in all honesty I don't care if your black or white, if your willing to work hard you should be helped, you then work, pay your taxes and the next generation gets help.

As for private land and access etc, well I guess I may look at things differently from others but I'm incredibly proud of my little patch of the world (South Gippsland) and I want people to see it, appreciate it, respect it, learn about it and understand why I love it so much and hopefully they end up liking it just as much as I do. What I just couldn't do is shut it off from everyone and say this is my patch of dirt, its amazing but you cant come in!
I have no issue with permits at a low cost to limit the number of people who enter an area and to keep a track of people who may be doing the wrong thing.
Anyway as I said, I look at things differently from most perhaps and this is just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers all.
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Reply By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:28

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:28
We passed by camp 6 on the 13th, all looked normal.

Our leading vehicle and one other (out or 9 vehicles total) did a run up to camp 5 for a gander at how it looked there, said it was VERY visited, most camped at looking Madigan camp on the whole route.
Some are visiting it not realising it is off limits I have come to understand.
It is black & white on the permit though, so if we want to keep the line open on free permit, we should respect no access to camps 3, 4, 5, and if we can avoid 2.

We found camp 1 ok, going via old stock track from the yards to the SW of this camp . . . the temp post with glass jar and journal inside was knocked over.
It still has the canvas strip with Madigan Camp 1 written on it.
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Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 13:21

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 13:21
Found the photos on Facebook, Les, on that Madigan page. After seeing the jar at Camp 1, you did really well to find it!

Re your mention of Camp 5 last night, I was a bit bewildered that it might be no-go, as we were trying to do the right thing on our trip. Checked out our permit, and in the special conditions it says Camp 5 is okay. Probably why there's so much traffic been through there?



Good to talk last night........my toastie 'n coffee got cold. Hope the mud cleaning is going well too. Landcruiser GX would be the go!!!

Bob


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Can't remember most of it.

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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 13:27

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 13:27
Bob, I am sure you did nothing wrong according to your permit.
I have also just come to realise the disparity between info on the map posted further below by me re camp 5, and that on my permit, screenshot here (realised that I can upload pdfs and pics :))

My permit is obviously different in layout to yours ?

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Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 14:20

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 14:20
Didn't think there was any difference, at first glance, Les, but ours reads in Purpose of Entry box: "Transit the Madigan Line (permitted route only; as indicated by accompanying map)". So that's where the descrepancy has been.

Our map is the same as the one posted in your next reply, showing access to Camp 5 and eastward.

Bob

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Can't remember most of it.

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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 14:26

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 14:26
I heard they have just changed it Bob, inc the map with access denied south of Madigan.
Someone else recently did Geo hill from Madign, their permit and map was not showing what mine did on there.
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Reply By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:33

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:33
Just looking at Hema simmo maps again, all of Madigan is already in their possession, why you can't go down the Geo Hill or Geo Centre any longer, not sure what that triangle section is all about, but the trad owners already have about 5 to 10km south of Madigan anyway ??
Maybe the new triangle part is Pmere Nyente ownership ?
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:50

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:50
Which map is that Les.

Everything I have seen, inc the latest Hema maps indicate that it is Crown land west of about camp 5 ( now 6) and south of about Lake Caroline. About 100km north of the Madigan line.

Even the CLC map shows that.

I would be interested in that source. I can't even see why they have any say in access south of the Madigaan line.

Any information would be great.
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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 11:39

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 11:39
Hema - Simpson Desert 1:1,100,000 and Simpson Desert 1:500,000.
Then there's the permit map which clearly shows a boundary of 'their' land down to south of Madigan Line.
The closest is about 4.6km from camp 10, but near camp 8 for hill and turnoff for centre between that and 9, it is more like 10 to 11km.
This is all marked Atnetye lands on the permit.
I can't post pics.
As far as I am aware now, to access the centre or the hill 'legally' you need to come in via old fuel dump A off Colson, or up from French Line.
It can be done via other routes, but these two would be most practical.
May last year I was in a group of 3 vehicles that went from Mirraponga Pongunna Lake turnoff just west of Poeppel, and followed old shot lines across to the centre.
It is the route shown in the ExplorOz treks, but really is a hard slog, old lines no longer exist, very rough terrain, on 3 days we managed only 50, 60, 70 km for whole days from very early to dusk.
We got the the centre, withing 6km of the hill, and had to abort back to centre, and down corridors to FL and out west to Mt Dare.
We would have run out of fuel trying to get out via the hill and west to Colson.
I mid 2017 I am planning a return to get the hill and centre again, probably going via Mac Clark or FL / Colson junction, in via fuel dump a, and then down the corridors we used last May to finish.
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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 11:42

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 11:42
Oh, that native land to the south of Madigan goes right across to Hay River Track and beyond too !!
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 12:56

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 12:56
Les what edition of the maps do you have.

My 2015 version sclearly show the border well north. 100km or so

Same as this map on the CLC website shows that land to be Crown land.

CLC map

Thanks
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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 13:07

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 13:07
That's really out of date.
Bad effort by CLC on that.

My Hema maps are the latest on 4WD Maps version.
Only the Simpson Desert versions mentioned above show these boundaries.

The map and permit info is confusing re camp 5 . . . noticed the map says "Access is not permitted on the Colson Track north of Camp 5".
Yet the permit says under Purpose of Entry : Transit the Madigan Line (avoiding camps 3, 4, 5 and the Allitra Tableland)

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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 13:29

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 13:29
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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 13:32

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 13:32
A little annoyed re this, seems we could have gone to 5, but missed out due to conflicting info.
I read permit shown in the pic above and was determined not to go there to do the 'right thing' by the permit text.
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 14:13

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 14:13
Thank you Les
This is very confusing.
My maps are obviously out of date I am going by the 2015 online version of Hema.

click on this site here and then click on the little i symbol under the woed select. Then click on the location you are interested in. look in cadestra on the left or the bottom.

Not simple but it tells you the land use.
I double checked and your information seems to be the most reliable.
thanks
.
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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 14:32

Monday, Jun 20, 2016 at 14:32
No probs boobook, yes it seems to be a recent change all this, so hopefully they can keep camp 5 (and 6) in the picture for travellers.
It would be great if you could access 3 and 4 too, maybe with a clause that no camping, just a transit through there, camping before native title land and beyond camp 5.
Most likely no one in GOVCO authority that deals with these matters cares, or even understands what these sorts of access issues mean to people in the 4x4 community.
They probably just get a request to ban this, deny that, and just go along with whatever has been proposed, to appease communities in a way.
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