Lithium - current offers on market

Submitted: Saturday, Oct 05, 2019 at 12:06
ThreadID: 139149 Views:1617 Replies:10 FollowUps:6
My AGMs died. So I am sourcing the market for two 100Ah LiFePo4, buildin BMS.
So far I could find only major brands like Victron (100A 200A max, charge 50A) and expensive Mastervolt next to lots of cheap 'Chinese designed' ones like:

- lowenergydevelopment 3-4 'brands'
all 80A 100A max app $800
- evolution not replied yet
- ev power not replied yet
- Fusion ebay 70A 140A max $1000 AUD
- itechworld ebay magical 250A max
current for less then 1sec (so not at all)
patent pending ;0)
- access12voltwarehouse.com.au 120Ah
50A 120A max, only 25A charge!

Looks like with low continious and max Ampere they protect unequal weak cells.
I am very keen on getting US build quality over, like battleborn $1400AUD 100A 200A max for 30sec! or liveblue.

Does anybody has already longterm experiences with the cheap ones and their buildin BMS? Or has anybody imported US batteries?
I will update that post when more info comes in.
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Reply By: RMD - Saturday, Oct 05, 2019 at 14:06

Saturday, Oct 05, 2019 at 14:06
FC
I only have small Lithium batteries not van sized but looked at iTech world lithium for consideration to use in a CVan. Two 100ah lithium is easily equivalent to 3 100ah agm's. Do you currently have 3 or more 100ah agm batteries. Maybe more solar input will suffice with less lithium storage ability.

I thought iTech world make their batteries, from imported paste and are used by defence forces. If true they must be reasonable quality and performance. $800 or so when I looked last. Unless running a very large inverter or using for starting, a high discharge ability may not ever be required.
AnswerID: 628005

Follow Up By: FullonCamper - Saturday, Oct 12, 2019 at 00:21

Saturday, Oct 12, 2019 at 00:21
hi RMD, yes, sure, for most people a lower regular current or even max current will do, but the beauty is, that the max current tells us about the quality of the cells. If a producer is not able to manufactur equal cells, so he has worries about the weaker ones and gives lower currents, then that shows that weaker cells also might not last as long as the others and the BMS will shut down all cells earlier than we would expect. And those currents are just the ones that are given to us, expect them to be much worth!!! Like on many Chinese products, the specs do compare to ADS or other certifications. Be aware, we get sold rubbish!
'Used in the defence force' is most likely a cheap sales expression.
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Reply By: Keith B2 - Saturday, Oct 05, 2019 at 14:16

Saturday, Oct 05, 2019 at 14:16
I understand that a good many of the units with an built in BMS cannot be connected in parallel. A bloke on another forum connected three in parallel and it was a total fail as two of them would not charge.

A separate BMS is not big money and well worth it.
I have two 200 AH units with a separate BMS supplied by EV Power and have been very happy with it. The tech support via email has been excellent. They charge at 14.2-14.4 and float at 13.6, so a normal programmable battery charger will do.

The EV Power website shows a 120 AH unit for $852 plus $220 for a quality BMS. There will be freight on top of that. Someone local to talk to might be a good thing.

Keith
AnswerID: 628007

Reply By: FullonCamper - Saturday, Oct 05, 2019 at 16:09

Saturday, Oct 05, 2019 at 16:09
I have 4x6V 205Ah FullRiver, two and two in series and then in parallel.
The reason why I try to compare the output ampere is the quality. You have to compare crap from quality somehow, and from China comes lots of crap as we know. And external BMS would make sense for warranty, so we can point out crappy cells.
AnswerID: 628009

Reply By: HKB Electronics - Saturday, Oct 05, 2019 at 18:25

Saturday, Oct 05, 2019 at 18:25
I have an EV power setup for three years now, no issues.

The batteries have a similar foot print to equivalent AGM's, then you have the BMS.
BMS can handle 240A.

Recently read somewhere that some had installed a Lithium integrated unit that had much more capacity in the same foot print, not sure how the manufacturer has achieved that.
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Reply By: Bob Y. - Qld - Saturday, Oct 05, 2019 at 22:08

Saturday, Oct 05, 2019 at 22:08
I needed to replace a pair of 120Ah batteries before a CSR trip in July/August this year so bought a pair of "Optimum" 120Ah lithiums off eBay, plus an Enerdrive Dc2Dc from Springers, to replace a Redarc 1225D.

The batteries were usually full by mid morning, running an 80L Engel upright fridge & a 40L Engel set as a freezer, plus a few LED lights for a few hours. Just how long these "el cheapo" batteries last, at almost $700 ea, remains to be seen but they have plenty of pluses so far. 40A charge rate, float @ 13.5v, 80% DOD, lightweight, about 13kg each! Negative would be the lack of heavy load, say for jump starting, or even bush welding.

Bob



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AnswerID: 628014

Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Sunday, Oct 06, 2019 at 09:52

Sunday, Oct 06, 2019 at 09:52
I have an iTech120 Lithium Battery with built-in BMS.
Had it about 6 months and no issue with the battery running a 70l compressor fridge in the van, but I am experiencing problems with a Victron 712 Battery Monitor.
May be a conflict issue with the monitor and BMS. I have sent a query to iTechworld and will do the same with the Victron Agent.
I am considering disconnecting the Victron and just rely on the BMS to protect the battery. Expensive bit of kit though and it is not even heavy enough to use as a boat anchor.

One point for your consideration is that you can drain a lithium down to 20% and one 120Ah lithium may be equivalent to two 100Ah AGM's which you can only practically drain down to 50%.
That is what I am trialling at the moment but I cannot successfully monitor.
Bill


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Follow Up By: RMD - Sunday, Oct 06, 2019 at 11:03

Sunday, Oct 06, 2019 at 11:03
G'day Bill
I had a Jaycar battery monitor in line with a MPPT solar charger and the battery monitor must have created strange pulses/waveform in the line to the battery. The MPPT simply closed down and did very little. When the Battery monitor was removed out of circuit, the MPPT reg worked properly again. I should have put my digital scope on it to see the wave form but haven't done that yet, didn't think of it at the time, to see what is happening. If your system is all working well and covering the usage easily then the battery monitor is pretty much redundant as it only sees and reports but doesn't contribute to the health of the system.

I might try my monitor again but add some dampening capacitors to it, across the line, to try and eliminate the issue.
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Follow Up By: FullonCamper - Sunday, Oct 06, 2019 at 14:02

Sunday, Oct 06, 2019 at 14:02
Hi Bill and RMD,
thouse battery monitors should have a shunt, that does in particular Ampere measurements, but also voltage or even temp.. They should be installed in the minus cable closest to the lithium battery. So shouldn't be in line with the MPPT solar charger. The 712 can connect by bluetooth to victron MPPT
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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Sunday, Oct 06, 2019 at 15:29

Sunday, Oct 06, 2019 at 15:29
Thanks FullonCamper,,

The Monitor is installed as per factory specifications. I use a Ctek D250S dc charger for input via alternator or solar panel and a separate Ctek 15A AC charger when connected to the grid.
I have sent a support request to both iTechWorld and Victron supplier and await their replies.
Bill


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Reply By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Sunday, Oct 06, 2019 at 11:38

Sunday, Oct 06, 2019 at 11:38
I looked at them all and changed my entire caravan system of 3 x 100ah Full Rivers over to 1 Enerdrive 200 ah

Price didn't come into it...I was chasing weight savings, proven technology from a reliable supplier and prompt reliable technical support...…..I got all of that from Enerdrive.



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Follow Up By: mountainman - Monday, Oct 07, 2019 at 21:56

Monday, Oct 07, 2019 at 21:56
any specs you have at hand..
Weight...
Cost..
Ratings
Just the juicy bits to compare and help us all
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FollowupID: 902336

Reply By: FullonCamper - Wednesday, Oct 09, 2019 at 18:24

Wednesday, Oct 09, 2019 at 18:24
still getting an overview. Here is an update - lithium batteries price and performance.. all 100Ah if avaliable

more quality brands
Victron common in AUS (NL) 100A 200A max, 50A! charge
Battleborn US 100A 200A max for 30sec! 50A! charge $1400AUD
LiFeBlue US 100A 300A max 3sec 60A! charge $1480AUD
Revolution ebay 100A 400A max 3sec 40A charge $1950 AUD
Relion ebay (also US) 100A 200A max 7.5sec 50A! charge 2100AUD

Chinese designed in AUS
- lowenergydevelopment.com.au all 80A 100A max for 10sec 30A charge 650-850$
- Fusion ebay 70A 140A max 10sec 30A charge $1000 AUD
- itechworld ebay no rec. A.,magical 250A max for less then 1sec! (specs)
- access12voltwarehouse.com.au 120Ah 50A 120A max, only 25A charge! $800
-Enerdrive ebay no rec. A, 100A max only, 33A charge $1400
-Optimum ebay 100Ah rec. 18A?, A max? max charge 50A? $593 no reply, yet.

https://www.battery-connect.com
Mavric and Optimum
-
- evolution not replied yet
- ev power not replied yet modular

AnswerID: 628087

Follow Up By: Dave B18 - Saturday, Oct 12, 2019 at 20:07

Saturday, Oct 12, 2019 at 20:07
Under your 'More quality brands', some are made in China.
'Chinese designed in AUS' - very much doubt it and probably definitely not. Would need to shown irrefutable proof that is so, not just sales talk.
Currently probably the best cells are made in Asia and China.
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Reply By: Dave B18 - Saturday, Oct 12, 2019 at 19:32

Saturday, Oct 12, 2019 at 19:32
We have been using the same brand that Low Energy Developments is selling for five years now. There are a lot of them in use and never had any failures. We would have been happy to change them out at five years. Doubt any of them have been discharged more than 40%. They were installed to a design capacity of shouldn't having to go below 50% - not because of the battery, but high reliability of overall system and a possible extreme weather event didn't get the amount of solar expected. Recent testing of two of the originals indicated about 94% to 96% performance of original capacity.
Sitting on top of a 200Ah Low Energy Development type Lithium sealed unit sitting here typing this.
The built-in BMS in the sealed type Low Energy Developments are selling charge to 95% capacity. Have one of the BMS lying on my workbench at home - good bit of gear and impressed at its precision of charge.

IMHO the specs of the iTech unit are fantasies of the fairies.
AnswerID: 628138

Reply By: FullonCamper - Monday, Oct 14, 2019 at 13:32

Monday, Oct 14, 2019 at 13:32
I found my batteries. So here is the last updated. A few tips first:

This and the previous list only a snapshot, specs and prices change daily due new stock.
Some brands are not only sold by the dealer listed, or by ebay, so search for more dealers for better prices.
You should ask if BMS allows for parallel operation and if it stops charging when under 0*C, which would destroy the battery.
3 brands have bluetooth BMS - Ask if single cells show voltage (for warranty)

'Looks like with low continious /max Ampere they protect unequal weak cells!'

The charge current is the most reliable number to compare with, as that is what you actually program your charger with. If dealers give you a 'too high' number, you have the BMS fault/errors quickly. Also it is a good number because LiFePo4 batteries advantage over AGM is the 100% current charging. So what you want is a high default charge current.

better performing batteries:
-Victron common in AUS (NL) 100A 200A max, 50A! charge ex.bms
-Battleborn US 100A 200A max for 30sec! 50A! charge $1400AUD
-LiFeBlue US 100A 300A max 3sec 60A! charge $1480AUD
-Revolution ebay 100A 400A max 3sec 40A charge $1950 AUD
-Relion ebay (also US) 100A 200A max 7.5sec 50A! charge 2100AUD
-lfp.net.au 100A 150A max, 100A charge! $990
-Invicta ebay 95A 30sec only? 350A max 3sec, 50A charge $1115
-Amptron (batterieplus) 100A 200A max 5sec, 50 charge $875
-Allspark ebay 175A 320A max 5sec, 30A charge $1149 with stronger BMS up to 500A max
-evparts.com.au 120Ah 100A 300A max, 50A charge $852

A bit questionable:
-Propower ebay 200A? (I asked) 200A max, 50A charge $1199

'less performing ones':
- Fusion ebay 70A 140A max 10sec 20A charge only $1000 AUD
- access12voltwarehouse.com.au 120Ah 50A 120A max, only 25A charge $800
-Enerdrive ebay no normal A, 100A max only, 33A charge $1400
-Optimum ebay 100Ah 18A xA max? max charge 50A? $593 no reply, yet.
-Solarking ebay 80 160 10sec, 30A charge $559
-Solarking ebay (Access) 50 100max 10sec, 30A charge $649
-Solarking ebay (lowenergydevelopment) 80A 160A max 10sec, 30A charge $595
-BWB ebay 50 200 max $590
-GenZ 40A 100A max, $1355
-korrlighting.com.au 100A 200A max, 20A charge only $1099
-Campere (satplus.com.au) 80A 100A max, 30A charge $695
- itechworld ebay 120Ah (130 280max 5sec, 50A charge) changed values after my request, questionable high specs now) $839
-Powertech homeof12volt.com.au 50A 100A max 5sec, 20A charge only
everybattery.com.au 100A 350A max 20A charge only $999
further dealers:
battery-connect.com Mavric and Optimum
access12Vwarehouse.com.au victron and solarking
battery.com.au Sentry $2100
mygenerator.com.au Baintech 220Ah
everybattery.com.au Sentry, Drypower, Revolution
evworks.com.au
evpower.com.au
-------------------------------/
High quality:
AUS built with US components
lithbattoz.com.au

stationary quality to compare with
lfp.net.au/product-page/12v-100ah-compress-pack
200A! 1000A max!, 100A! charging $1496

cheers
AnswerID: 628162

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