Recommendations for Mains Powered Smart Battery Charger

Submitted: Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 13:56
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I want to buy a good quality "Smart" 3 stage battery charger. There seems to be dozens of makes and even more models to choose from. I would appreciate input from people who have one they're happy with or from those in the know, as to best brand and model to go for.
I'd like to be able to FULLY charge 85 AH deepcycle batteries in a reasonable time, say overnight. Be also nice to be able to use it on Gel filled batteries.
I know Bainbridge technologies have quite a range but I find it hard to zero in on what's best.
I have been looking at their new CTEK units.

Thanks in advance.

Rosscoe
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Reply By: Member - Sand Man (SA) - Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 14:56

Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 14:56
Rosscoe,

Check out the following URL
http://www.projecta.com.au/

They have Automatic, Manual & 3 stage MCU Units
These chargers should be available at most Battery Retail outlets.

I have a 10amp manual unit (about $130) and a separate controller (about $60)which stops overcharging and can be switched to Gel style batteries.

Plenty of options, depending on how deep your pockets are.
Bill


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AnswerID: 71517

Follow Up By: Rosscoe - Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 15:12

Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 15:12
Thanks Sandman,

That's the problem -TOO many options - I'm confused.
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Reply By: Member - Captain (WA) - Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 15:56

Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 15:56
Hi Rosscoe,

I have the Bainbridge 3 stage smart charger. It can independently charge 3 batteries at 15A max. I have had this for several years and am very happy with it. It charges my 115Ah deep cycle battery on my van.

Theoretically it should be able to charge your gel cells in less than 6 hours, however, it will depend on how fast the battery can take the charge (gell cells much better than lead acid wet cell).

The charger is switchable between the type of battery (lead acid/ gell / etc...) to ensure the appropriate charge rate for that battery type.

Cheers

Captain
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AnswerID: 71521

Follow Up By: Rosscoe - Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 16:04

Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 16:04
Captain,

How long does it take to cahrge your deep cyle batteries?

Whats the name and model number of the unit you have.

It souns like what I'm after.

Regards,

Rosscoe
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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 17:41

Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 17:41
Hi Rosscoe,

Not sure how long it actually takes to charge the battery. As its the house battery in the van, I leave it plugged into 240ac all the time when power is available and avoid running it flat. Also, top up the charge while driving via 12V from my vehicle (will never fully recharge via 12V, but at least keeps it running until 240 available).

Will check the model type out when I get home.

Cheers

Captain
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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Saturday, Aug 07, 2004 at 18:18

Saturday, Aug 07, 2004 at 18:18
Hi Rosscoe,

Just checked my charger, its a HI TEC Bainbridge Electronic 3 stage charger. It has 4 position switches that you set once depending on the battery type (changes charge profile). It is rated for 3 x 15A. While I only have 1 battery connected, I assume you can connect another two, but they would have to be of the same type as there is only one lot of battery type switches.

Just went to check the website, but its down for redevelopment (www.baintech.com.au)

Cheers

Captain
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Follow Up By: Rosscoe - Monday, Aug 09, 2004 at 11:39

Monday, Aug 09, 2004 at 11:39
Thanks Captain,

Sounds like you use your set up similar to me.

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Reply By: Baz (NSW) - Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 15:58

Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 15:58
Hey Rosscoe we have one of these Projecta adaptors connected to our 8amp battery charger brilliant they are, turns your normal charger into a monitoring charger, it's on 24/7 now looking after our deep cycle battery in the camper.

Baz.
AnswerID: 71522

Follow Up By: Member - Nobby - Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 16:04

Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 16:04
Baz.. where do you get this Projecta and what is the cost approx.
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Follow Up By: Baz (NSW) - Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 16:36

Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 16:36
Battery world at Moorebank for $66.
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Reply By: mattie - Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 19:08

Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 19:08
Rosscoe
I have a 115 amphr batt and if is nearly flat it probably takes over 24hrs maybe even 36 hrs to charge fully, it will accept 5-6amps for a while then tapers off to 2amps and less for the last 10hrs or so, not that i sit there and watch the charger but i was shocked as to how long it took it to recharge. This the big dissadvantage of a deepcycle batt. If you do not have solar pannels or a regular power top up source you would probably be better off with a normal batt or a optima or eQuivalant batt as the latter accept a lot of amps hence a very quick charge.

Mattie
AnswerID: 71541

Follow Up By: Rosscoe - Monday, Aug 09, 2004 at 11:44

Monday, Aug 09, 2004 at 11:44
Mattie,

That's my problem. Do I go solar ($1200.00) or generator ($1300) or Christie battery charger ($900) AND do I ditch the two deep cycle batteries (dual battery in the 4by and house battery in the caravan) and go standard cranking battery all the way through.

Regards,

Rosscoe
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Reply By: Member - Jimbo (VIC) - Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 20:21

Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 20:21
Rosscoe,

Have a yarn to Anthony at Brown and Watson (distributors for Projecta) who can explain it better than any of us. Their number is 03 9730 6000.
AnswerID: 71572

Follow Up By: Rosscoe - Monday, Aug 09, 2004 at 11:40

Monday, Aug 09, 2004 at 11:40
Thanks Jimbo,

I'll call him today

Regards,

Rosscoe
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Reply By: brett - Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 21:25

Friday, Aug 06, 2004 at 21:25
Rosscoe, to do it in a reasonable time you'll need something that can deliver 10 amps or more, you said batteries so I assume more than one, so you'll probably need something close to 20Amps. Have a look at www.gsl.com.au, they have a 17A switchmode which you can get for about $250, australian made too. It charges until terminal voltage hit's 14.5 then drops back to a float of 13.8. Depending what sort of gell you have the 14.5 may be getting a little high, but it would certainly be fully charged. The 14.5 is good for any conventional wet cell but some sealed gells might start gassing up at 14.5.
AnswerID: 71585

Follow Up By: Rosscoe - Monday, Aug 09, 2004 at 11:51

Monday, Aug 09, 2004 at 11:51
Thanks Brett,,

I'll talk to gsl later today.

I have a second battery (85 AH deep cycle battery) in the car and also one in my dirt road caravan.
The car runs my Engel Fridge and the van battery lighting, music etc - the fridge in the van runs on gas when we are camped.

I'd like to top both batteries up to as close to fully charged as possible whenever mains is available.

Perhaps the van during the day while we are just in the car or sightseeing and the car at night.

The Gel battery I have is mainly kept for emergency in case I loose either of the other two.
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Follow Up By: brett - Monday, Aug 09, 2004 at 22:17

Monday, Aug 09, 2004 at 22:17
The only thing the GSL unit is lacking is a switch for different types of cells which will reduce the output voltage at which it go's to float mode. Not a major issue though and if your mainly doing wet cells it doesn't matter. The main advantage of the GSL unit is price, some of those other brands are over $500 for 17A. The retail price of the GSL is $429, they will give you a discount if your order from them directly and they quoted me about $330. But from WES components in Sydney they are only $249 incl GST. Can't work that out but have checked the price with them and it's correct.
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Reply By: drivesafe - Wednesday, Aug 11, 2004 at 22:31

Wednesday, Aug 11, 2004 at 22:31
Hi Captain, your batteries, cranking or deep cycle, should charge fully when being charged by your vehicle's alterator. The most likely causes of low battery voltage charging is either ( or both ) the wire to the batteries is to small or you are not opertaing the vehicle long enough at a siutable rev to get the batteries charge properly.
PS Bainbridge brand seem to be a much more reliable charger.
Regards.
AnswerID: 72215

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 10:31

Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 10:31
Hi Drivesafe,

The problem is the time factor. I have redarc solenoid isolators so first of all the main battery has to get a full charge, then the vehicle 2nd battery followed by the van battery. As the van is a deep cycle, it charges slowly and often does not even get a turn to be charged if I have run the vehicle 2nd battery down.

Cheers

Captain
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Follow Up By: Member - Ross P (NSW) - Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 15:09

Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 15:09
Drivesafe,

My understanding is that the batteries especially the deep cycles will never get more than about 80% charged from the vehicles alternator/voltage regulator. 14.2 volts from the vehicle is not enough to push that extra current into the battery to get beyond 80% and some say that's optimistic.

Hence mains 3 stage smart charger, or solar etc.

Regards,

Rosscoe
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FollowupID: 332523

Reply By: drivesafe - Wednesday, Aug 11, 2004 at 22:43

Wednesday, Aug 11, 2004 at 22:43
Hi again folks, one important point when charging batteries. The charge current is controlled by the battery NOT the charger. A charger may be good for 50 amps but if the battery's maximum charge absorbtion rate is 10 amps then that is all it will take. Before buying a charger, find out from the battery manufacturer what is the optimum charge rate for the batteries you have.
regards
AnswerID: 72221

Reply By: drivesafe - Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 11:14

Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 11:14
Hi again Captain.
If you are running additional gear off your cranking battery, the battery will take longer to charge.
The Redarc products are amongst the best available so the way to get the other batteries to charge is to remove as much off the cranking battery. Then when you start your vehicle, the Redarc will only have to wait for a short time for the cranking battery to charge up as it only has to have the drain from starting the vehicle replaced and then the other batteries can be charged.
Also don’t forge, if you are using anything less than 8 B&S cable to connect to the rear battery, you will both slow the charging rate and reduce the charge voltage getting to the battery.
I supply charge control gear to a number of motor home manufactures and there is little problem with charging the auxiliary batteries, no matter where they are located as long as there is thick enough cables run between the cranking battery or alternator and the auxiliary batteries.
And one more important point that is often over looked, you MUST run the same size cable for both positive and NEGATIVE.
Do not use the vehicle’s chassis for the earth return as this will reduce the charge and voltage getting to the auxiliary batteries.
Regards.
AnswerID: 72272

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 12:30

Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 12:30
Hi Drivesafe,

I run a double insulated ~50mm2 HD cable directly from the aux battery (solenoid controlled) to the van battery via a 12 pin flat plug connector (use the HD pins for 12V supply, earth).

However, I have earthed the aux battery to the chassis (~50mm2) and earth the 12 pin plug to the chassis (did not run a wire the whole length). Given that I have good earths from the battery and on the plug connection, I do feel these are adequate. But I am always willing to listen to others experience if this is incorrect!

As for other accessory loads, everything I have added runs off the vehicle aux battery and so the main battery is effectively a starting battery only (except standard vehicle accessories).

My philosphy is that I want the starting battery charged first (redarc accomplishes this), followed by my 2nd battery (only gets charge after first batt at ~13.5V), then van battery gets a charge after aux battery at 13.5V. I find the charge to the van battery depends on how long the aux battery was used (run fridge, worklights, air compressor etc...).

As I have a good bat charger for the van, I don't mind if the 115Ah van bat is not fully charged for several days (normally not away from 240V for that long) .

I also have a winch that I run off my aux battery. Currently I can only winch from the aux battery but I have a direct connection (via solenoid) to the alternator (not the main battery). I believe this gives a higher charge while winching as the starting batt stays charged but the alternator gives the aux batt as much charge as it can. Do you think this is the correct way to go? The only drawback is that I canot jump the main bat if flat via the solenoid switch (using alternator to main bat cable as pathway). However, I have jumper leads and can simply jump start myself if I ever had to by direct bat connection.

Cheers

Captain
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Reply By: brett - Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 13:34

Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 13:34
50mm2 is whopping big cable, you sure it's 50mm? I'm running 4GA stuff which is about 18mm2 and it's over 1cm in diameter with the insulation. What's the diameter of your cable?
AnswerID: 72287

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 14:38

Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 14:38
Hi Brett,

I refer to 50mm2 as the cross sectional area (csa). The cable is about ~0.8cm diameter plus insulation.

(8mm dia = 4mm radius, TTr2 = area, therefore 50mm2 csa).

I hope I got my calcs right, but still think an 8mm diameter is around 50mm2 csa. If my logic is wrong, I am happy to be corrected.

Cheers

Captain
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Reply By: drivesafe - Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 19:42

Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 at 19:42
Hi Captain, from your cable cross section size, sounds like you have at least 6 B&S which is heaps ( about twice the current capacity of 8 B&S ).
The flat 12 pin I take is a Brilite, if so I would recommend you use an set of Anderson Plugs instead ( careful when buying them as these are normally sold 1 at a time Not as a pair and you will need 2 ). Anderson plugs are used on things like the batteries on electric fork lifts. The most common size is a 50 amp but for a little extra go to the next size up which is 175 amp.
They are a mirrored connector or in other works, the plug and socket are identical. ( Great devices )

Connecting to the chassis is a NO NO.
The reason is that you may have checked to see if there was a voltage difference before you set up you wiring. Thats all good and well while there is no load.
The trouble is that there will most likely be a dirty or rusted or even a painted joint or two and with no load, no problem.
But once you start to apply a load, even a very small load, you will start to get resistance at the bad joints.
And the higher the load the worse the resistance gets.
This resistance now governs the amount of current and the voltage level that can be supplied to the battery.
As for the winch, You have fallen for one of the most common deceptions relating to alternators.
To get the maximum amperage out of an alternator, your motor has to be revving at 2000 rpm at the least.
And here is the problem, the alternator is putting out say 60 amps and the winch is pulling 150 amps, then the battery is still supplying most of the load and if you use the winch long enough, you can still flatten the battery with the motor running.
To give you a better idea of what I mean, here is another example of flattening a battery with the motor running.
This one is a common occurrence, vehicles driving slowly over rough terrain at night for long periods often have there lights go very dull because they have not had the motor revving high enough to allow the alternator to produce enough current to replace what the head lights ( and other electrics ) were using.
Hope this all helps.
Regards.

AnswerID: 72351

Follow Up By: Lynn2 - Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 08:22

Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 08:22
G'day drivesafe,
From your experience in the business what's the best way to get the auxiliary batteries topped up on the run. Any tips or recommendations?
I run very little off the cranking battery but the aux battery (vehicle mounted and separated using a Sure Products sparator) runs my Engel fridge; my lap top PC via a 300 W inverter, GPS, etc and feeds 12 V to the van mounted absorption type fridge when we are on the move. The battery in the van is also supplied by the vehicle alternator via a diode so the van battery is not connected to the other batteries, so to speak.
I've upgraded the wiring to the trailer plug to 10 sq mm (CSA) cable (positive and earth return) via a 50 A Anderson Plug. The wiring to the van fridge looks like about 6 mm auto. With the car connected to the vehicle and the car running the voltage at the fridge is about 14 V dc with fridge OFF. Granted it will be lower when it's drawing currnet but is that OK for the fridge.
Lots of questions here and most have been discusssed before but I'm still not sure which way to jump.
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Follow Up By: Rosscoe - Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 09:51

Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 09:51
Just visited the site from work and realised. I hadn't logged out of SWMBO's session at home (AGAIN!) Above
drivesafe,
I should still get your reply though.
Thanks

Rosscoe
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FollowupID: 332624

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:00

Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:00
Hi Lynn2, the only thing I would recommend is the removal of the diode.
There is no cheap fix for isolating the van battery but by having the diode in there, you will not be charging the van battery to it's full capacity and both deep cycle and cranking batteries need to be charged to at least 14 volts and if you could, once a month a deep cycle battery should be boost charged at 14.5 volts for about 2 hours ( this procedure is good for cranking batteries too ).
Now it is not realistically possible to do this so most vehicles have a sort of trade off in that they usually charge the battery at about 14.2 volts. This is not the ideal way of doing things but it does work.
The problem with having a diode in the supply line is that diodes traditionally have a .7 volt drop across them and that means that your rear battery at best is only going to be getting about 13.5 volts.
Heavy use of the rear battery and low charging voltage adds up to shorter operating time between recharges and a shorter battery life.
You would have to weigh up the cost of replacing the rear battery sooner than you would normally have to or if the cost of an electronic isolator is warranted.
Every thing else seam to be great.
Hope this is of some assistance to you.
Regards
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FollowupID: 332625

Follow Up By: Member - Ross P (NSW) - Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:21

Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:21
drivesafe,
Thanks for the reply.
I've considered taking the doide out of the circuit because I realise I can loose about .6 Volts.
The problem with this is that it then connects the van battery in parallel with the vehicle's auxiliary battery with both batteries feeding all devices in parallel, including the van fridge. Both batteries will then equalise to the same potential and it may just mean that I have less charge on the van battery when I stop then I would if I put up with the voltage drop across the diode!
It seems that I really have to look at a good mains charger as well as either, a Christie charger, a Solar system or a reasonable quality generator
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FollowupID: 332627

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:35

Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:35
Hi RossP, how often do you use the van battery, I might be able to give you some ideas based on it's use.
Regards
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FollowupID: 332628

Follow Up By: Member - Ross P (NSW) - Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:58

Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:58
drivesafe,

I'll answer your question in a number of ways.

The vans sits outside the house for two to three months at a time with me folornly wanting to hit the road. During this time I monitor the battery for both Open Circuit Voltage and Electolyte SG and put it on a cheapy mains charger every now and then but especially before I go on a trip.

When we travel we typical do not camp in unpowered sites for more than about three days. The van battery is then normally only used at night to run lights (halogen for bedtime reading and 1 amp fluro for outside if necessary), TV via a 300W inverter for news and the odd footy match and bit of music. I also have an electric water pump. The van fridge runs on gas while we are camped. With an 85 AH attery fully charge before I leave home I get the three days on the first stop before the battery reaches about 50% discharge. I don't take the battery lower than 50% discharge.

When we do hit the road it would be normal for us to drive for at least 4 hours but more often than not for 6 or more.

Regards,

Rosscoe
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FollowupID: 332629

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 12:44

Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 12:44
Hi Drivesafe.

Thanks for that. I understand about the dirty joint problems when wiring to/from the chassis, but its something I make sure are kept in good condition.

As for the winch setup, I understand that extended winching will flatten the battery, but at least the alternator is putting some current back into the aux battery. But typically, winching is only a 5 minute job (thats on-load high current, not line spooling etc)

In practise with my setup, I find that as the aux bat voltage drops to ~12V while winching, the isloating solenoid then opens so you lose the alternator topup. However, as the main bat is fully charged the solenoid closes after its timeout period and there is a topup before the solenoid opens again (due to low aux voltage).

The advantage of this setup is that there is some topup to the aux battery while winching while the main battery stays fully charged. The disadvantage is that you do not get the benefit of using two batteries to winch with (extended winch time before both flat). I would rather rum my aux battery "flat" and have to stop winching while I add charge, then continue winching. This type of setup would probably not suit those in a frequent multiple winching situations, but I find works best for me.

Cheers

Captain
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Follow Up By: drivesafe - Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 22:40

Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 22:40
One quick point Captain, I did not see any where if you had put some form of protection on both ends of the wire in case of a short.
Its good practice to put a curcuit breaker at the two battery positive terminals just in case you have accident or jack knife the van and the battery wire gets pinched.
Just a sugestion, Regards
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FollowupID: 332718

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 22:52

Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 22:52
Hi Drivesafe,

Yep, got self resetting circuit breakers at each end (30A from memory). Thanks for the tip anyway.

Cheers

Captain
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Reply By: Member - Ross P (NSW) - Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:56

Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:56
drivesafe,

I'll answer your question in a number of ways.

The vans sits outside the house for two to three months at a time with me folornly wanting to hit the road. During this time I monitor the battery for both Open Circuit Voltage and Electolyte SG and put it on a cheapy mains charger every now and then but especially before I go on a trip.

When we travel we typical do not camp in unpowered sites for more than about three days. The van battery is then normally only used at night to run lights (halogen for bedtime reading and 1 amp fluro for outside if necessary), TV via a 300W inverter for news and the odd footy match and bit of music. I also have an electric water pump. The van fridge runs on gas while we are camped. With an 85 AH attery fully charge before I leave home I get the three days on the first stop before the battery reaches about 50% discharge. I don't take the battery lower than 50% discharge.

When we do hit the road it would be normal for us to drive for at least 4 hours but more often than not for 6 or more.

Regards,

Rosscoe
AnswerID: 72442

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 12:27

Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 12:27
RossP, first things first, the best thing you could do fo your battery is to install a very small solar panel. Both Altronics and Jaycar have 100ma solar panels specifically made to trickle charge a car battery.
Even if your battery is at 50% when you get home, the charger will have it fully charged by the time you go again. And in the interim it will keep the battery self maintained.
Next, Driving for so long at a time would be great way to charge the rear battery and even if you simply installed a self latching relay system wired to your ignition with a push button switch.
You would start and drive the vehicle for about 10 minutes and then press the button. The contacts of the relay would then supply alternator voltage direct to the battery.
When ever you turned off the Ignition, the relay would go open circuit and stay that way until you have the Ignition on and you press the button again.
Crude but effective.
Regards.
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FollowupID: 332639

Reply By: drivesafe - Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 14:55

Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 14:55
Hi captain.
If your systems working well, and it sounds like it is, the earthing to the chassis is not an issue in your situation.
But for the benefit of someone else who might be considering wiring up a dual battery system, the industry standard is to install both positive and negative wire of the same type all the way between the batteries.
As for your battery dropping to 12 volts while winching, DON’T TOUCH A THING. Your battery is in pretty good shape as most batteries drop to 12 volt just by turning on the headlights. When winching, it’s common for batteries to drop to or even below 11 volts.
Your system is working and working well.
Happy motoring and regards.
AnswerID: 72467

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 23:04

Friday, Aug 13, 2004 at 23:04
Hi again Drivesafe,

Gotta admit, the bat voltage when winching was under no-load when measured so very good chance its a fair bit lower when really working.

The lack of negative wire is a compromise I made. I have so many wires running to the rear (1 x air compressor, 1 x fridge/aux power/rear worklight, 1 x HF radio-with negative wire to batt, 1 x van charge, multiple small switch wires for relays, 1 x coax for HF, 1 x control wire for HF auto tune), its VERY crowded in the door sill channel. And that doesn't count the air lines for the compressor, another two for the airbags and finally another tube for the water tank !!! The other side channel is almost empty, only has the electric brake control wires.

One forgets just how much wiring there is for all the accessories. On top of this at the rear of the vehicle, I also have UHF, GPS+remote aerial, HF remote head in a overhead console, never mind all the underbonnet wiring for second batteries, relays for acc power, winch, antenaes, etc... Had my last vehicle for 10 odd years and half the reason I didn't change earlier was simply the fit out time/cost. The list above is simply the wiring, everything still needed fitting etc.

Well, you gotta have a hobby, its taken me 9 months to get this far and I am still not finished!!!

Cheers

Captain
Its not what you drive, but how you drive it!
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Follow Up By: drivesafe - Saturday, Aug 14, 2004 at 12:42

Saturday, Aug 14, 2004 at 12:42
You didn't buy a 4WD to go 4WDing, you bought a 4WD to fit out to go 4WDing.
Thats the best part, you don't have to even leave your driveway to have fun with a 4WD!
Once my warranty runs out, I'll get down to some real modifing too.
Happy motoring and best regards.
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