Reliability of Electronics in Outback

We had a guy from ramp it towing doing some work for us in Kalgoorlie. he does remote recoverys along the nullabor etc and when I asked him what the most towed vehicle was he didnt hesitate - Land rover the electrics go phut and thats it - tow job

Collyn,

We run 3 landcruisers, 2 x 79 series(1 turbo), and a 105 series wagon modified into a dual cab. Situated on Diamantina River, so road, and terrain conditions can vary from good to less than ordinary.

Have been driving the turbo myself, for over 20 months, done 75K clicks, with no problems other than a rooted front diff last year. As I hope to purchase this vehicle when the lease runs out, I do look after it, and service it every 5K. I often wonder about the electronics, and their longevity, but so far in this area, and within our Company, don't know of any failures(w/- electronics)

I imagine the only other alternative would be a 1HZ, with aftermarket turbo. Think the overheating problems with these conversions has largely been remedied.

Can't heap enough laurels on the 79 turbo, economical, tractable, and more than enough grunt, when you feed it the fat. Excellent for passing triples!!!!!

Had a 5L-E hilux d/cab here last year, and I know where you are coming from, with that vehicle!

Don't think you are being paranoid, just realistic.

Hooroo...

Excellent Post!!

I too have given this some thought, although for differing reasons.

What would be really smart, is if the manufacturers, or maybe an after-market manufacturer could supply a box of tricks fitted to the vehicle, so if necessary, we could switch the management system over to dumb mode. Something akin to like an iron lung for your car.
Now, I'm not a mechanic, or an electrician, but I would hazard a guess that there are heaps of things that have to be bypassed just to get the engine to fire on dumb mode, which means this thing has to be fitted professionally. All we need is engine, gearbox, brakes & lights, just to get us home.
I am sure that if someone was reading this, and was smart enough to invent something that would retro fit most popular vehicles, they would do VERY WELL.
You could even jazz it all up, like in the movies, whereby the 2 Generals in the ICBM bunker, have to take the key on the chain around their neck, insert them into the machine at the same time, say something really profound, then turn the keys in unison.
You & your wife could get a key each, hot day, computers shlt it'self, and you BOTH have to place the keys in the Dumb Engine Mismanagement System. Say "No Air Conditioning Honey...." To which she will reply..."Okay, I won't whinge.." Then you turn the keys, and turn back time..........
Hell, now I've written this, you'll see the bloody thing in a Jaycar catalogue!
I just can't help myself............. too far ahead of my time............

Cheers

Back to the Future Wolf

Hi Collyn
It's an interesting question you pose and I don't profess to have the answers. What I can suggest is that there are millions and millions of miles being driven in vehicles that are saturated with electronic this and that and they are not all failing. I suppose the issue in regard to remote travel is the probability of a failure and the consequent management of that risk, not to forget cost either!!. I would not be surprised that many of the electronic problems are a product of introduced accessories eg mobile phones installations, non factory cruise control, alarm systems/immobilisers not to mention a plug for this and a plug for that coupled to solenoids etc etc and therein lies a recepie for tears. For what it's worth my late model Hilux never failed to fire despite some aquatic work and desert trips and I haven't seen or heard of any electronic related problems over the last couple of years associated with this vehicle. I was amused that a country mate of mine in Vic bought a new TD nissan ute solely because of the old technology....his farming days tell him if he cannot fix it he don't want it! For me its a new TD troopie in 05 and I'll manage the risk or is it mythology? Time will tell no doubt whether I have made an error of judgement??

Collyn, agree with you totally in that I too distrust electronics (must be something to do with getting old ;-)).
Partly the reason why I have gone to the Humvee, basic mechanicals and electrics and if I can't fix it then no one else can. Plus I am nowhere near being overloaded and the ride is far superior in rough country.
Apart from the increasing use of electronics I'm disollusioned by the increasing dilution of the 'toughness' of proper 4WD's and the associated increase in mechanical failures that shouldn't happen in vehicles supposedly 'designed' to be used in rough and remote areas.
I too have an electronics/electrical background and while I have got a few vehicles going and sorted out probs for fellow travellers over the years there have also been times when vehicle recovery is the only solution. As has been stated Landies seem to be more prevalent in this regard. But as you say if the 'black box'bleeps itself well then short of replacement nothing will get an electronically injected vehicle going again. Most probs I've found over the years are usually related to sensor connections/failures rather than the 'brain' itself.
I've also got retired friends that have 79 series TDI troopies and traybacks that love them and while they are using them for travelling/holidays it is virtually continuous as they are retired. One couple have put over 70k on a troopy in 18 months following Lennies roads and the CSR, rudall rvr and the Kimberleys with no probs.
On the other side of the coin most comment (from people who have had cruisers for nearly 30 years) that they will not keep it for more than 5 years due to the lack of toughness.
Why would you want to get rid of the Oka? surely it would be rebuildable.
I looked for quite a while for one and most that I found here on the east coast were of questionable ancestry/use.
You are not alone with your comment on keeping older vehicles, I know of a few bods that run tagalongs and the like who buy the last of the 80 series in preference to 100's after ongoing probs with the latter. Some of these modern 4wd's will be a nightmare when they are 10 or 15 years old and someone sinks them in a creek etc.
Peter

Landrover FOR SALE

OK......

This post does it.

It's decided....the Disco goes!!

Can't have it dying in the middle of nowhere on the big trip can we?

If I hear one more reliability comment about LR's from a forum or mag I don't know what I'll do. It's unrelenting! I can't hear it anymore!

Damm you Landrover!!! Damm you Monday morning workers at Solihul!!!
You have let us all down.....

I give up, buying the troopy.
Can't beat'em join' em.
Changing camps. Crossing the line. Defecting.

What I can't understand is why are they more susceptible to electrics failure than a modern Nissan or Toyota?

WANTED: 78 Troopy. low ks

You think I'm joking don't you?

No fellas. Lucas was/is the Prince of Darkness or his apprentice, as the main one is elsewhere in the world doing big time stuff-ups.
When electronocs came into vogue a few years ago I am sure I read that some vehicles have a "limp home mode" in case the jigger goes on holidays.
If so, what happened to it? Did someone try to save some $$$$$.
Sure the benefits are significant with good eleccys, but the price of the little black boxes which control so much from the timing, fuel delivery,& auto boxes seems to
be around the same as an old tech motor rebuild.
The Triton utes & da 2.5 td seem to have good kw outputs & economy without resorting to lots of fragile bolt ons!

Read a very interesting - UN published book by a guy in one of the Qld clubs about his (mis)Adventures through the Simpson and back via the major roads in his Electonics laiden $130,000 ???? -

Unbeleivable series of events but basically the vehicle was brought down by a few grains of sand in the alternator (5 hours to get the alternator out) and a crook connection in the engine managment system. (Took a month to get the vehicle home and a week to locate the offending connector - the metal contact had moved back 2 mm when the connection was initiall pushed into place creating an intermittent fault that let to the replacment of half the electronics and fuel system)

Not to menton having to get the spare out from under all the luggage - using a jack that was not designed for the task and a 19" tyres for which there were at the time no spares in the country , or (and I have seen the damaged rim) no spare rims at the time in Australia.

Only a 1800 No. for assist (only had a satellite phone - they dont do 1800..) And so on - At one point he said - "What donkey designed this vehicle?".

So one begs to ask - Why shouldnt - or should - one take a $130,000 vehicle into the out back?

This thread has some very interesting implications - for many people - not least of all those the mechanics in the field who cannot fix them or have to spend 5X hours doing a job that should take 12 minutes.

Nick

Electronics get better every year - just look at PCs and digital cameras. I can see the point about things being fixable in the bush, but you will never eliminate the risk of breakdown, and all-mechanical vehicles do break down in the bush. And often can't be fixed there.
Electronics is here to stay, might even replace the driver to make the roads safer for all of us LOL. Just switch off the autopilot when it's time to go off-road!!
Cheers
John
Oodnadatta

It is just a transition period.
Our children will grow up to understand the operation of the modern electronic vehicle just as we did the points and coil system.
Most vehicles (ie Nissan 3.0 litre)have a limp home mode as does the auto if fitted.
I would think that most total stops on these vehicles would be most likely to be poor connections ,or wiring damage.
If you buy a good manual they show all electronic components and a check system for them.
The Nissan can be diagnosed by use of a jump wire and the flashing engine light sequence.
With this method the faulty part can be located,this will become common procedure with familarisation in the future.
I think rather than avoid the modern systems better to try and understand.
Regards

I defy anyone to fix a conrod through the side of the block. As with all things saftey precautions have to be taken depending on the probability of failure. Modern electronics is very reliable and as has been said before most faults of this nature is in the connections, and operators,if they are concerned about electronic failure, need to have a basic understanding of the field components of their vehicle and the connections. It is no different to the points type vehicles of old - if you didn't know it had points you are not going to fix it. A micro computer has less likelyhood of failure as putting a conrod through the side of the block - but both have happened and will continue to happen.

Graham

Up at the cape last year the RACQ guy told me that the main cause of cars being shipped out due to failure is electronics. Basically the vibrations kill them and they can't fix them so either send them south by sea or road. When I was there they had 4 vehicles to send south.

It seems that I am not alone in my concern! I accept that emission problems are solved more readily via electronics so it is probably inevitable that we will all eventually be forced into this technology.

Concerning reliability I wonder how many people realise just how reliable were trucks of 50/60 years ago? Between 1959 and 1962 I spent three years in Africa (as part of my work as a research engineer with General Motors) driving a QL Bedford (the predecessor of the R-type) twice the length and breadth of that continent. This included two Saharan crossings (each of which was about 5000 km). In three years and about 150,000 km (apart from burnt valves) that truck did not a foot wrong. Nothing broke, nothing fell off: we used only two sets of (1200 X 20) tyres - and I still look back with nostalgia at the 104:1 low range first gear. It was at least as good a truck as the OKA and, given only a bigger (and diesel) engine, plus better brakes - I would buy one today.

The above is true of 1930-1950s big 4 X 4 and 4 X 6 Scammels, Leylands, AECs, etc and also any number of big US-built off-road trucks.. The chassis design and build quality of the astonishing 1934 8X8 AEC (now in the vehicle museum in Alice Springs) is up to date even today - not least because of also having eight-wheel steering.

But getting back to the main theme - I'd like to see the serious 4WD vehicle industry accept, as does the aircraft industry, that things can and do fail, and to build in a either a 'limp home mode'; or as in aircraft practice, to have inbuilt redundancy so that critical-mission compenents are duplicated and even triplicated. That's why I trust electronics in aircraft - but not really in road vehicles.

I totally accept that none of the above is necessary for most road-going vehicles - or the 'soft' 4WDs - but a lot of people world-wide still live and work in territory like the Kimberley and we NEED vehicles like the Troopy and HiLux. (Do not be offended that I have not mentioned Nissan Patrol - it's simply there's no main Nissan dealer or dealer-service on the western side).

One partial solution is to do as I've done for the past few years: (a) to always carry a satphone, and (b) to have the 4WD outback recovery insurance (including for bogged vehicles) provided by Worldcare Assist (about $215/year - and they'll even pull you off the Canning Stock Route!).
Collyn Rivers

I don't know what bit's you thinking about, but I've never needed to "reprogram" any component for any vehicles, "specialised computer equipment"??? My toyota service manual for the 1kz-te Surf/Prado TD motor says if you don't have diganistic tools, use a paperclip to short out the wire and it will blink the lights on the dash to tell you what's wrong.

OK so in the past you've taken a spare fuel filter and belts. Now add to the list a copy of the service manual and a paperclip...

It seems as if there is nothing we can do about it as I don't believe there is any new petrol engine vehicle on the australian market that is not now computer controlled. The diesels are going the same way with at least 50% being computer controlled and the rest aren't too far behind. It would be impossible for the smaller engine diesels eg 3l Nissans (I use Nissan as they are the heaviest 4 x4 with 3l engine) to get the economy and power they are getting without a computer controlled fuel management system.
You could get around this by rebuilding the old vehicles but this ends up becoming uneconomical.
One of the things I would like would be the ability to interrogate the data loggeres that these fuel management systems have but this would be an impossible dream as the manufacturers would protect that but I live in hope that some virus writer would channel their energies in that direction.

I've had the same sentiments regarding electronics.

But from my observations:
- Majority of electronic problems eminate from aftermarket installations and additions.
- Toyota have a great track record for reliable electronics on their motors.

So I have lost my concern for taking my EFI diesel Prado off the beaten track.

My only concern is the factory immobiliser - would love to have it disabled. I'm paranoid that a transponder key may fail, so always carry a spare with the vehicle.

Cheers
Phil G

Collyn,
thanks for starting an interesting thread.
My initial reaction is to trust electronics ahead of moving parts. (The only caveat I would add is that the electronics doesn't run a Gatesean OS.) After all, lunar excursion modules don't have carburettors!
In my 4WD experience I have never had an electronic failure leading to a break down: Pajero 100,000 Pajero2 100,000 Lexus 200,000 (still going) Landrover 90,000 LR2 30,000(still going). I had one cranking battery fail due to internal breakage and the cruise control in one Pajero shook loose.
Of all the electronic gear that I travel with (Cameras, Computers, GPS, Music, Satphone, HF, UHF etc) the only thing to fail was an antenna tuner and that was because a soldered coil mount failed mechanically.
I remember the days of ignition coils and distributors very well - I spent a lot of time repairing them.

Jeff M

This situation is not remotely a parallel with today's kids having a natural affinity. That affinity is with the software - the programming. It is not how microprocessors work - kids are good at fixing computer software problems - but rarely if ever the hardware. But then hardly anyone is because the usual process is identify the crook board/s replace and re-progam. Like, increasingly, with cars except that cars are more complex.

But with cars, it's the hardware not the software that goes wrong. If that hardwear fails, a kid has as much chance of fixing it as a 90-year old plumber. In fact I'd probably back the plumber - at least he'll know that a good hit with a hammer may fix a crook connector.

As with Mike Harding I have a long history of designing and building very complex electronic equipment - including early computers. I also started and ran a chain of electronics magazines worldwide.

In earlier days electronic stuff used to be relatively easy to fix. Then it was not unlike vehicle engineering: separate bits did separate things and by identifying a crook one it was easy to solder in another.

These days have gone. Nowadays things are so complex that it is customary to replace a complete system - or at least major sub-system.

Re the relative reliability of space craft. Their design confirms rather than negates my concern. It is absolutely true that even the most modest laptop has far more processing power than even recent manned space craft. Why? Because the latter deliberately use basic and totally tried and tested electronic technology. This has not remotely the performance of later stuff but it's more readily fixable.

The Apollo series used discretes transistor (electronics types call it 'TTL') at a time when microprocessors were begining to be used even in dishwashers. On the day Man first landed on the Moon I was working for Natronics (in Kingsgrove, NSW) I was looking at using microprocessors in taximeters. And a year later did.

Why did NASA choose to use TTL logic? Because it could be (and was) readily fixable in the field. To some extent that's what saved Apollo 13.

Unmanned craft use super-sophisticated technology - because whilst a loss is a major issue - no one is killed as a result. And, the results show this. Many are lost.

Ask yourself why, if electronics is so reliable and effective, why is it none to speak of used in the Humvee's go-making bits? It's certainly not because GM doesn't know about it - we were experimenting with printed circuit dashboards, multiplexed systems and electronic active suspension way back in 1962.

What is interesting abut this debate is that the cautious are emerging as those who have worked in this field. And those who say it's all just fine appear to have not (that doesn't make the latter wrong or their views necessarily less than valid - but it's still interesting).

What I am basically saying (I think) is that if there are bits in vehicles intended to spend their lives off-road (and I repeat, I'm not talking about the odd week or two schlepping up the OTT and back) and if those bits will incapacitate the vehicle and cannot be fixed or bypassed - then, as with aircraft, they need to be duplicated.

Many Forum members will have seen what can and does go wrong with vehicles on tag-alongs to remote parts. But to many up here, in the NT and outback SA and Qld, these tag along 'adventure' routes are routine driving. And often alone and in vehicles that rarely are serviced properly simply because the distance to and from the closest service centre can be half the recommended service interval.

It's a different scene.

I am also talking specifically and almost exclusively about Toyota Troopies, HiLuxes and 4.2 litre Nissan Patrols because, with respect, these are about the only vehicles that are KNOWN to be strong enough to withstand continuous outback working usage. The Taliban worked that out (even if their Hiluxes were petrol driven)!

Have a look at Broome outside the tourist season - there's hardly a vehicle there except Troopies and dual cab HiLuxes. My own Troopy was one or a row of 15 such (I counted them) outside the Post Office yesterday - and all with the identifying BM XXX number plates (that tourists believe let the shopkeepers know how much to charge!).
Collyn Rivers

This is the best post i've seen on here what an excellent subject, now having said that imagine if this type of medium (ie) (internet forums) was around when we were going from pounds to the dollar or when we were going from imperial to metric do you think the discusion would have been similar the pro's and cons of which was better or more reliable i think so. I think if you could get the records of vehicle failures over a vehicles life or say a 200,000k period it would say that there would be more mechanical failures than electrical given that todays electrics are so reliable.

(eg) Our Explorer it's fully electronic only one failure ABS sensor and only because it was covered in dirt it has done 110,000k and is nearly 6years old the mechanical failures well there has been two both gearbox related, our Nissan Pintara fully electronic none in 220,000k, mechanical 3 clutches.

It comes down to how well you look after a vehicle, you check your mechanicals oil filter air filter change oil ect, ect, do you clean your electrics or check them not just your battery terminals, well do ya.

Baz, just a thought.

I think personally the chance of an electrical component dyng or blowing up to the extent some of these people are going on about is about as slim as snapping a regularly maintined timming belt or blowing a diff etc. Some things are just not going to be repairable when you are in the middle of noware.
Personally, I'd rather have an electrical/electronic problem rather than bent valves and damaged cylinder heads, I know which one I'd "personally" have more of a chance of fixing with a some wire, a multimeter and the engine manual.
My 2 cents, and yeah I've copped some flack on this post, but whatever it's all personal opinion, I know I've got an electronically controlled turbo diesel vehicle that will be comming on to 10 years old soon that the only problem I've had with it is the one I've got now and that's some kind of mechanical knock from the front suspension. And If you think the vehicle doesn't get worked hard, take a look at some of my photo's.
my 2c. :-P

Hey Collyn,

Seems you really opened a can of worms. In general I agree with what you are saying about things we don't understand and are difficult to check. Whilst I accept that electronics are the main worry for people these days I would just like to relate to things that happened to me, just to show that old vehicles can suffer form crippling problems too.

On my first ever big trip I had to modify my plans, rain forced the closure of all the roads in NW NSW and I ended up in Broken Hill despite planning not to got there. As I was driving out of BH 3 days later I felt the clutch slip. Quick U turn found a mechanic and got it fixed. No big deal but without the rain I would have been at Innamincka. The prob was the rear main oil seal had failed and filled the clutch with oil. None had dropped on the ground or got out of the bell housing. Whilst I am capable of fixing all these problems the thought of doing it on the sandy banks of Cooper Creek is not in the least pleasant.

The second incident was on Cape York. Just turned down towards Heathlands Ranger Station from the DCS Road. The car just stopped. I swear someone reached in the window and turned the key. I got out the complete factory service manual and started looking for what might cause the prob. My mate, an engineer and skilled bush mech also read the manual to no avail. Flagged down another guy who we had travelled with for a few days, he was a mech although not in the industry at the time, no joy. Drove to ranger station rang mechanic for daignosis. Fuel shut off solenoid he said. We had somewhere to look but it tested OK ie there was power to the terminal on the solenoid. Finally a couple of diesel mechanics on hols from Denmark stopped. The problem was the shut off solenoid, it was fixed by removing the piston so I then could not stop the vehicle. That was realtively easy to live with. Because we did not have a 24mm open ended spanner cut down to a length of about 5cm we had to remove the top of the fuel pump and the tap the solenoid around with a hammer and chissel to get it off.

The vehicle was a 1989 4.2l Diesel GQ Patrol. Now i expect we'll get the should-a-had-a-toyota replies but put that aside and most intelligent people would acknowledge that the GQ has a pretty good rep for reliability.

Without the timely intervention of God (he sent the rain that forced me into Broken Hill) and a couple of passing travellers in both instances I was looking at expensive recovery and repair bills. The clutch job cost nearly $2000 anyway who knows what it would have cost to get the parts to Innamincka. My point is that every time we go into remote areas we take, and I hope accept, that kind of risk, no matter what we drive. For me that is part of the adventure. If there was no adventure I might as well stay at home and watch it all on "The World Around Us" download pictures from the internet and insert myself using photoshop.

Besides I met some really nice people by breaking down.

Just my thoughts, for what they're worth
Duncs

G'Day Collyn,

Mate just my 2 cents worth. I work in the mining industry and most U/G equipment now has more electronics than the average 4x4 and the conditions they work in are probably worse than 99% of 4x4 owners will be in. Now the contractor I work for uses Denso tape to cover EVERY electrical conection or join to keep out the dust/water/mud etc and this works well because most failures are the ingression of the above. We still get failures but not to the same degree that other places that I've worked at that don't wrap everything in Denso tape get. So I personally cover all my connections with the tape on my HZJ75 and have never had a problem - not that its got any electronics in it. Thats the reason why I like simple engines like the 1HZ or the old Perkins that I'd say you have in the OKA (which will be my retirement vehicle). looks like you have a great set up on the OKA.

Cheers
Hughesy

Bundyman

Thank you (and others for comments).

I still feel Michael hit the nail on the head concerning the use of electronics where other more throughly proven technology will do an equally good job.

There also needs to be understood that by 'electronic' I am not referring to electrics generally. There are electric motors still in use today that were designed and built by Royce (the engineer in Rolls/Royce) over 100 year ago, and I have yet to have a warranty claim (I gave a liftime warranty) on an electric seive shaker I last made in 1978. Electronics simply does not yet have that sort of record

I'm a bit unusual in that I have worked virtually equally with mechanical as well as electronic systems - but still trust mechanical things far more - mostly because the technologies are simpler and there is a far longer tradition of knowledge and usage.

Do consider that whilst aircraft duplicate or triplicate all electronic bits and pieces, they do not do so with mechanical bits (excepting engines) - there's only one pair of wings, one rudder, one set of landing gear etc ...

Motor cars, and trucks in particular) start off with an original design, but it is more development of that design that goes to produce a reliable end product (in fact Rolls-Royce cars were often regarded as "a triumph of workmanship over design")

I'd also like to reiterate that the concern about reliability up here may not be logical. All I'm saying is nevertheless it well and truly exists, seems to be increasing, and is held also by every auto mechanic that I know.

ToyMotor
Yes - am that Collyn. Big change from the magazine days in Sydney! I parted company with that life over 22 years ago but it's amazing how many people still remember those magazines and that era. Even Dicky still keeps in touch.
Collyn Rivers

I dont want to get too depressed here as I havent yet bought my LC100. Can we have an idea of how many vehicles HAVE survived, instead of the handfull, that, for one reason or another broke down.
For mine the glass is always half full and the fact is, that electronics in vehicles will not go away.
How about some good news?

Hi Collyn

This issue is not one of failure – all things can fail, that is why modern commercial aircraft have up to three systems in case one becomes redundant.

The question is what is the statistical likelihood of failure, versus the number total hours used, and what impact will a failure have?

The fact is that a large percentage of four-wheel drives sold in Australia are used exactly the way you have described – one or two large trips per annum. The chances of failure are there, but for a manufacturer the cost versus benefit equation is always at the forefront of development. That is what keeps vehicles affordable and consumers buying them.

If manufacturers were to start building vehicles with back-up redundancy systems the cost would be unacceptable to most. Sure, a breakdown in the middle of nowhere is a great inconvenience which could, for the under prepared, lead to life threatening situations. However, the statistical probability, versus the number of vehicles and kilometres travelled does not warrant back-up systems.

I understand you’re issue, but your requirement probably doesn’t fit the general, broad use category that the manufacturers are targeting. That doesn’t mean I am not sympathetic to your plight, I am, however you need to be realistic about the issue.

A key element you raise is that many vehicles in remote areas are not serviced properly due to distances to service centres. Clearly, vehicles should be serviced in the way manufacturers intended. Again I understand your issue – but regular services may detect the onset of a potential problem. I’m not sure how you get around the issue, as it becomes one of making it attractive and economical for services centres to establish themselves in remote areas – an old chestnut that is best left for debate elsewhere.

The key thing is, what price are you prepared to pay, for the vehicle you are asking for?

Would you be prepared to pay an extra $15,000-$20,000 for a Toyota Troopy for the peace of mind that if one system fails, it will automatically back itself up, or at that cost, are you more willing to take the risk?

Interesting thread

regards

Wanted....1 big camel in good nic..oh better get a trailer too!

My 1c worth , 80 series manual window. Window goes up window goes down, my arms not sore.
Cheers
skinny

Dead Right, my message was meant to read I love manual window winder as I have had an electric motor go in a car and had a bugger of a time getting the car locked again so I could take it for repair.
But then agian I grew up fixing my FC holden with a hammer and screwdriver. Cheers
Skinny