why new landrovers breakdown

Submitted: Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00
ThreadID: 1857 Views:4067 Replies:19 FollowUps:28
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after reading the earlier forum on be aware of landrovers..
I thought that I would just clarify a few things..
the current vehicle disguised in a landrover body is actually a BMW
the lanndrover company was taken over by BMW several years ago and they have been changing the designs slowly to incorporate german engineering in to what was known as the hardest vehicle in the world.

this has of course changed the vehicle dramatically.
with the introduction of the Extreme and the Td5 engine with its radio transmitter throttle and its dust susceptible computer engine management system also its auto traction control and hill descent control
electric windows and cd stacker system under the seat, it has changed the Time proven Landrover in to yet another tar seal tourer just like the landcruiser and patrol and pajero (which incidentally translated to spanish means wanker !!) with owners being too afraid to use them off road as they might get dirty or break.
sad but true .
I personally have owned a mitsubishi wanker I mean Pajero and found it acceptable off road
however I now own 3 real landrovers of various vintage, 51years old, 43years old and a youngster of 16years old all of which are equally reliable even when up to the windscreen in water and full of dust, they are all petrol and dont have a problem with being wet.
the reason they are so reliable is they are TRUE Landrovers not BMWs in disguise
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Reply By: Mikey - Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00

Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00
Mikey I concur.If you want a tough simple Landy dont but past 1985 they got thinner and weaker after that. remember that they were a military vehicle and are realy in a different class to othe 4wd's, Not better or worse just for a different purpose.
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Reply By: Tony - Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00

Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00
Ok, let's get one thing straight. BMW actually did very little with Land Rover except improve the quality control a little. Contrary to popular belief the Td5 engine is a pure Land Rover design and was under development before BMW took over. BMW engines appeared in the Range Rover and Freeloader, but who cares?

Sure, the electronics in the new Defender may be susceptible to water and dust but you can get around this to a certain extent. ALL manufacturers are going this way and if Land Rover want to sell any vehicles they have to as well.

Let's get another thing straight. I do not believe that new Land Rovers break down any more than other makes. I have heard plenty of horror stories from owners of new Toyotas and Nissans.

My Td5 Defender has performed faultlessly so far, and seems to be virtually unstoppable. And, it is my 6th Land Rover.
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Follow Up By: Mikey- Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00
I agree with you tony that the Td5 is probably a reliable engine in its place.
the place where it will play up and potentially break down is when you need reliability the most ,, thousands of kms from anywhere in a dust storm in the desert.
hopefully for you this wont happen to yours but it has happened to many...
I would seal the electronics with electric motor rewind sealant ,
this is made by crc and comes in an aerosol can..

if the Td5 is so reliable why do Landrover still manufacture the Tdi 300
engine for the army and for all Landrovers being shipped to Expedition companies.
also conrico almost cancelled their contract with landrover due to the introduction of the Td5 this contract was only saved because the Tdi 300 was still in production.
dont get me wrong a Landy is a Landy whatever is under the bonnet but some have been made for a different purpose than the original simple reliable Landy
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Reply By: StephenF - Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00

Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00
Mikey, you might love your old Landys, but who in their right mind would use an old leaf-spring truck as a general-purpose touring vehicle or take one on a round-Australia trip? Give me comfort and modern technology any day. And your post didn't clarify anything except your lack of knowledge. For your information, Landrover was taken over by Ford a year or more ago. Try and keep up.
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Follow Up By: Donalddasher - Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00

Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00
All well and good with modern technology but breakdown in the boonies, then try to get parts or the expertise to get you going again and you may find it both difficult and expensive. Give me a basic leaf sprung truck, anyday..no pwer windows,central locking, fuel management system etc more things to #$%@ up just when you dont want them to..Murphy's Law!!
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Follow Up By: Bob Allan - Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00

Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00
I love it when people get offended and burn off a steaming reply. What sort of car do you have Stephen?
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Follow Up By: Mikey - Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00
I agree with one thing you say steven and that is who in their right mind would want to tour anywhere in a leaf sprung anything ?????
I personally do all my touring in my 110 V8 which is coil sprung .
also some may say Landrover were taken over by ford but ford are actually not owned by ford anymore they are owned by the bayer motor werken company ...
modern technology has its place and that is not out in the bush thousands of kms from anywhere .
I have just returned from an around Australia trip ( off Road) in my 110 V8 and it didnt fault at all . unlike the numerous computer controlled technically advanced vehicles that were sitting on the tracksides unrepairable and looking for a tow out of the bush.
so I would say give me the comfort of coil springs and the simplicity of a non computer controlled technologically advanced modern car.
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Follow Up By: Stephenf - Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00

Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00
Bob, I'm not defensive because I don't even have a 4WD. I'll be getting one next year when I retire and I read forums like this to help me make the right decision when the time comes. It annoys me when someone comes out and says "all (insert name here) are bleep". When they show uninformed bias their opinion is immediately worthless. No new car is bleep - they all have their good and bad points and appeal to different people for different reasons. I also have a laugh when someone brings up (as they always do) "Ohmygod, what if all these new-fangled electronics break down in the middle of the desert - give me WW2 technology every time!". Do these people use electric starter motors or have they modified their trucks to take starting handles "just in case". I'm quite comfortable with modern technology - it has given us reliability and efficiency that wasn't possible years ago. If people want to choose fifty-year-old technology in the misguided perception that it's more reliable that's their business.
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Follow Up By: Mikey - Thursday, Sep 05, 2002 at 00:00

Thursday, Sep 05, 2002 at 00:00
once again stephen I agree with some things you say,
the oh my god what if it breaks down in the desert thing was perfectly demonstrated on a trip up the canning stock route where I came accross some people in a computer controlled Japanese 4wd with a drowned computer. these people had no spares with them and were trying to raise the RAC on their radio ( think they were out of the max 50 km rescue range )
I also came across another two cars both modern Japanese 4wds both with broken suspension , again with no spares but unless they had the factory specialist tools they couldnt change the broken springs anyway,
expensive $+++ recovery for both groups and several days stranded .
I also came across another group one was a Japanese 4wd with a drowned alternator and his companion was driving non the less than a new Landrover Defender TD5 with a drowned computer.
after showing the Japanese 4wd driver how to start his car with a flat battery ( using a winch strap wrapped around a jacked up rear wheel) he was able to tow the stricken Landrover out .
now my car that I was travelling the canning in DID BREAK !!!
after several kms of hard going and much bouncing with its one and a half ton load . all of my engine and gearbox mounts sheared off ...
leaving my engine and gearbox sitting on the chassis.
with a portable drill and some cross sections of logs and some long bolts taken from another part of the chassis,I was able to make some replacement engine mounts which saw me up the rest of the canning accross the gibb river road and back to Perth ... after being back in Perth for about a month I replaced the blocks of wood with real engine mounts..
6 very different cars with 4 different problems , 3 recovered (maybe ) at huge expense... 1 towed out by a non computer controlled Japanese 4wd with a flat battery and a broken alternator.
and 1 driven out with lumps of wood as engine mounts.
so I guess what I am saying is modern computer controlled and fancy suspension is fine in the city but when it comes to the outback think carefully before making any choices..
my experience with 4 wds is Pajero which again was not computer controlled and I had no problems slightly limited off road capability.
and of course Landrover , sure I have broken coil springs and shock absorbers and of course engine mounts all of which are easy to repair in the outback, I have also drowned my engine in water half way up the windscreen but drag it out spray with wd40 or similar and away it goes
again . my Landrovers are all Petrol and my touring one is a 1986 110V8
the older 2 are a 1959 series 2 , 2.25L and a 1951 series 1 ,1.6L
both the older ones do have starting handles.
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Follow Up By: Bob Holness - Thursday, Sep 12, 2002 at 00:00

Thursday, Sep 12, 2002 at 00:00
Hi Stephen F
do you by any chance drive a Holden ????
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Reply By: Bob - Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00

Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00
Landrover's reputation was earned over a long period of proven unreliability. Remember those broken axles? Saw one not long ago being snatched over sand dunes because the rear axle was broken! Nothing high tech, electronic or new fangled about that - just plain old poor quality!!
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Reply By: Willie - Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00

Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00
It is a known fact that the two most unreliable vehicle makes worldwide for the years 2000 and 2001 were Daewoo and Landrover. I owned a few old Landrovers( pre 1980) and they were good apart from breaking the odd axle. I agree with donaldasher that the old vehicles are the more reliable and the promote the KIS catchphrase.....KEEP IT SIMPLE !!!
Cheers, Willie
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Follow Up By: Bob Allan - Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00
"It is a known fact?" To who, Willie? People who believe the crank postings on this list? A single broken axle (if you believe it) doesn't indicate systematic quality problems. Every vehicle sold in Australia is subject to occasional failure, and that includes Holdens, Toyatas and Rolls Royces. What we don't have is any reliable reporting of the types and frequency of failures - something you would need before you could judge a particular vehicle reliabilty or otherwise. Compiling anecdotes from this list is no basis for forming an opinion as we know that there was a campaign by a particular individual against LR. Statements like "It's a known fact.." make me smile.
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Follow Up By: Goran - Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00
There are no vendetas and one man campaigns on this forum. Just an opinions and various experiences. Bob's post makes me laugh......are you on the Landrover's payrol Bob ? Look at the post above and under this and undestand that there are many unhappy people. Any conspiracy is in your head only, as always. I am not the shrink but i say you are in denial mate. Get help.
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Follow Up By: Bob - Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00

Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00
Hey Goran, I wasn't the one with the split personality and the delusions about all those broken down Landrovers experienced by those personalities.
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Follow Up By: Goran - Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00

Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00
You must be a Landrover dealer Bob. We all hear you.... quiet well acctualy because you repeat yourself over and over. Why don't you go and change an axle or something. :-)
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Follow Up By: Bob Allan - Monday, Sep 02, 2002 at 00:00

Monday, Sep 02, 2002 at 00:00
Goran, maybe the guy with Prado losing front wheels (see above) could use a hand. For the record, my current vehicles are an LX 470, a TD5 Disco, and a BMW convertible. I've had two problems with the Disco: the remote locking/immobiliser unit failed, and the Eurovox radio wouldn't eject CDs. Both fixed - no more probs. The Lexus' fuel line fell apart in the bush resulting in petrol urinating out all over me as I attempted to repair it to avoid being stranded in the middle of nowhere.
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Reply By: Tim - Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00

Friday, Aug 30, 2002 at 00:00
Well! I disagree - every two years I change ove my 4wd since the mid eighties they've been coil sprung getting better every time and getting back to the Landrovers' of today I put it to you all that when you;re in the Simpson, on the Cape, on the Gibb River road or at any other popular Australian you'll find very few Landrovers but plenty of 80/100 series cruisers, Prados, Pajeros and Patrols - how good are Landrovers away from the tarmac? A/ No good!
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Follow Up By: Bob Allan - Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00
Tim hasn't seen any so thay can't be any good! Tim, unless you have something more tangible as a basis for sweeping statements you will continue to appear like a fool. I wonder what else Tim hasn't seen - I am sure none of us will go and make our next purchase until we've had the benefit of Tim's wisdom!
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Follow Up By: Slunnie - Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00
Interesting, when I was in the Simson Desert recently, there were comments being made about how the main vehicles we saw were LandRovers and LandCruisers. There were many other makes journeying successfully in the desert, but not seeing a particular vehicle does not make any constructive statement about that vehicle or their use in arduous conditions.
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Follow Up By: Mikey - Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00
to sum up how good the landrovers are Tim
just how many 54 year old Landcruisers, patrols,pajeros are still in everyday use today ??
what was the only vehicle suitable for the snowy river project back in the 50s ???
what vehicle is used by the western worlds millitary ??
I think we all know the answers..
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Follow Up By: Tim - Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00
for all you knokers - please check the VFACTS (Victorian) which is a monthly document that shows how many of different sort(s) of cars are registered - therefore being the only accurate way of obtaining sales figures and bit will show that L/Cruiser, Patrol, Pajero and Prado FAR outsell Land Rover therefore alll us Australians cannot be wrong when we vote with our buying dollars - BUY A REAL 4WD!
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Follow Up By: Tim - Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00
Hey! When you have a good look around this site you'll find that there are some very defensive comments - I wonder if they're all Land Rover owners?
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Follow Up By: Bob - Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00

Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00
I think you will find the Honda CRV at the top of the list Tim!
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Follow Up By: Disco - Monday, Sep 02, 2002 at 00:00

Monday, Sep 02, 2002 at 00:00
Good point Bob. Being popular is not necessarily a good indicator of quality - eaten at McDonald's lately? The CRV is a great town car; absolutely useless off road.

Similarly, seeing certain vehicles in the sticks has as much to do with perception and resultant sales as actual reliability. The fact is that many Disco buyers never intend to take them off road and don't even buy bullbars for them. This doesn't mean they are not capable (or reliable - 200tdi's have some niggly problems but rarely 'fail to proceed') if actually used off road. I've just taken my 200tdi through the northern Flinders and Simpson, performed like a dream, comfy and excellent economy (as good as 9l/100km - can't afford the fuel bills of a 110 County V8 I'm afraid). I spoke to the Simpson Desert vehicle recovery bloke in Birdsville and he said a major reason for recovery was failure of computer management systems in newer cars. I do not consider myself to be a neanderthal when it comes to technology, but until manufacturers improve the offroad reliability of electronic management systems, or design them so they can be replaced with simple plug-ins which can then be carried as (expensive) spares by serious offroaders, I'll stick to a largely mechanically-controlled diesel. Unfortunately there is not much impetus for manufacturers to do this as the bulk of 4WDs are not truly tested in this way so there is insufficient negative feedback.
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Follow Up By: Tim - Monday, Sep 02, 2002 at 00:00

Monday, Sep 02, 2002 at 00:00
Hey! Getting some good feed back - It may be said that what is percieved to be good at its designed task will reflect in the new car showroom and you'll notice that in some postcodes the M/Benz outsells L/C 100 etc - therefore what is a good car to me might be the 4WD that takes me to the airport for my fly over of The Cape!!! (I wish) but it is common knowledge that L/Rovers in 'general' DO NOT have a brilliant reputation and reputations are normally made by the product NOT user.
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Follow Up By: Mikey - Thursday, Sep 05, 2002 at 00:00

Thursday, Sep 05, 2002 at 00:00
Tim Tim Tim
the reason that the jap stuff sells better is because the jap cars are cheaper and the parts are easier to get ...
if jap is better why dont the Australian Army use jap instead of Landrover and incidentally not TD5 Landrovers , they use early Defenders.
As for your comment ." all us Australians cant be wrong "
look at the great Aussie icon the HOLDEN... true Aussie engineering ??

Holden was started by British car manufacturer Vauxhall who were also known as Bedford .
they had a sister company in europe called opel , holden started out as being a good way to get rid of the out dated models from England and Europe.
Vauxhall was taken over by the American car giant General motors many years ago , with the sale went opel and holden.
todays Holden is a range of cast off cars from the european market which went out of date 10 years or more ago.
the commodore was about in England decades ago
the modern day commodore was known as the Vauxhall senator at least 10 years ago.
the barina is the vauxhall nova
the vectra is the vauxhall vectra ( ever wondered why an aussie car has a snowflake on the auto gearbox tunnell. icy roads in england and its a winter mode switch to stop wheel spin on ice)
now the holden jackaroo ... is actually an isuzu trooper also from GM
the frontera is again the vauxhall frontera from 10 years ago
you havent had the calibra yet as it was only introduced in Europe 9 years ago so you will get that soon.
there are of course many more .
but as all true Aussies know the Holden is a true Aussie icon.
as is Coronation street.
this may of course detract from the initial discussion but the phrase " all us Australians cant be wrong deserves it .
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Reply By: PETER - Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00
before you invest - investergate and get dealer promises IN WRITING - why? well i paid $49000 for a disco in june 1999 from stewart webster in seaford. great people and great service but they forget things, the car i bought from them new in 1999 and had serviced by them on every occasion according to the book is now worth only $18-20000 as a trade in on a new td5 from them. I dont expect the earth but would expect a better deal or let me say closer to the $30 od thousand they will expect fo sell it for.
if you expect to tow then do not be tempted by the 3.5 ton capacity of disco rather ask what its ball weight capacity is - mine can tow 4 ton but only support 150k how stupid is that - and land rover australia - what do they say - sell the car or sell the caravan - the disco 1999 series one will not do the job. what a change from when i shelled out 50 grand then it was all great and the best buy in the world. take care its your money and they dont know about basic honesty or loyalty regards peter
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Follow Up By: Bob - Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00
Same story with Lexus Peter. Three year old vehicle which was $120 new, Lexus serviced etc, now worth $50,000 as trade in. Are they all crooks?
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Reply By: scott - Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00
Having been a past Landrover owner here are some facts. My car was a 98 tdi disco
1. purchased new $53220
2.traded 6/02 $23000
3. Total cost of service and repairs during that period $11219 (includes one new set of tyres)
4. major items include pan seal transmission replaced, rear axle seal replaced both sides, transmission oil leak, major problem with turbo kept vibrating loose back to the shop about 5 times, power steering leaks, numerous oil leaks, oil leak sump remove & refit, rear washer inoperative, dropped bonnett liner, cruise control broken, harness wiring rear of cylinder head replaced, injector pump rebuilt, transfer shaft split coupling, cigerette wiring harness fell off, handbrake inoperative faulty connection

Whilst i did like the car they were comfortable to drive in had excellent 4x4 ability, good economy and we took it over some tuff tracks in central qld and vic high county, I could never go from one service to the next without having to go back to the mechanic for some little thing.

My recommendation if your a A grade mechanic and can fix it yourself go for it otherwise steer clear. Although cant comment on newer models have had no experience but above figures are exact I have every reciept

Hope this is of help to someone
cheers

I now have a nissan patrol and couldnt be happier with the car
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Reply By: Willie - Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Aug 31, 2002 at 00:00
Bob, "The known fact" I saw somewhere on the internet. BUT on a lighter note go to http://cartalk.cars.com and check out the worlds worst cars. It is good for a laught and there are no Landrovers there :-)) So that is a plus!! Cheers, Willie
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Reply By: Matt - Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00

Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00
Well isnt this a heated little debate?? I think there are a few inferiority complexes out there in the Landrover owners club.
I have worked on landrovers for the last ten years and they have proved themselves capable in some of the worst terrain in Aust and overseas, but dont compare apples with pears. The landrover is an agricultural tractor, exactly what it was designed for all those years ago and we all know they have changed little! The top selling 4x4's in Aust have proved themselves time after time, in the bush and on the black top and they continue to get more reliable every year! The technology is improving, making these vehicles better not worse, its funny how quickly the mind forgets all the bad over time! The most convincing of all liars is memory!!
The amount of vehicles and the enormity of the expeditions that are undertaken sucessfully by relativly inexperience people is unbelievable, due to the comfort and reliability of current vehicles!
Mickey!! The landrovers in the Aust Defence force are not a sign of their reliability or popularity, it was a political descision to continue with the TRADITION of LR in the Army. I also have no idea what makes you think that LR Aust (JRA) are stockpiling TDi motors for the Army???? The LR 110 uses a 3.9 4bd1 engine of the ISUZU breed. Consequently it is the most reliable and only part of our LRs that doesnt require constant mechanical assistance!!
The wiring loom integrity is a disaster, they chaff and short out constantly through the firewall, causing endless wiring faults. The driveline breaks everything, from rear output shafts in the gearbox to the spider gears in the diff and finally to the axles! (Plenty of good photos as proof!) You get pretty adept at pulling out LR gearboxes if you join the Army as a mechanic and dont even start me on the suspension bushes! Well thats about it mechanically, we all know what the interior cosmetics and firwall rust problems they have (what was the firewall anyway, the sacrificial annode in the ally body?)
Any way apart from the mechanical side, they are a very capable 4x4, but who wants to dive a tractor for days on end across Australias finest?
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Follow Up By: Mikey - Thursday, Sep 12, 2002 at 00:00

Thursday, Sep 12, 2002 at 00:00
Hi Mat
we all know that the Aussie Army use the isuzu/Holden Engine in their Landys,thats cos parts are easier to get here and the Aussie forces can bodge them.
sorry maybe I should have clarified its the European Army that use the Tdi 300 in the new Landrover XD Wolf ,
the wolf is only produced for millitary purchasers and mostly used in Europe , although I have seen a convoy of these vehicles in Australia in the Northern Teritory and it was the Tdi300 under the hood.
The vehicle is quite capable of taking out an enemy tank at a range of 1950m with its deadly accurate wire guided missile launcher which is mounted on a 360 degree turret. ( sounds like scarey stuff )

the reason the English Army give for not wanting the Td5 is

( as Quoted by Colour Sergeant Morgan Bridge of the 3rd Battalion of the Parachute Regiment in May 2002 )

"Like Defenders sent to the third world, XDs have retained the rugged Tdi rather than the more sophisticated Td5 that has been the civvy versions driving force for the last 4 years, it makes sense, complicated electronic engine management systems cant be bodged in the middle of a battlefield. remember what's a tiresome inconvenience for you and I could be a matter of life and death to these lads"

this may not be the case for us as we are not in a war zone but the reliability is just as important if you are alone in the desert ,
this actually goes back to my main point that any vehicle that has computer controlled gadgets and thingys oh yes and the engine management system, can not be repaired in the outback.
the point is not on what goes up hills faster or pulls away from the lights faster or has the shinier paintwork its all about what you can do when the dreaded computer is drowned halfway over a river crossing in the middle of nowhere as oposed to the fully submerged non computerised engine going through with no problems, or the electric windows that have fused cos they are wet as your car is on its side in the same river as oposed to the simple wind down windows which easily allow escape in such situations .( sorry Ex Camel Trophy coming out of me there)

for anyone looking at buying a 4wd I would look at what you are going to use it for ; if its for the tar seal and the school run then go with whatever looks pretty on your driveway( so that counts Defenders out) with all its computerised gadgets and velvet seats.
or if you are looking at using it in the bush forget the all singing and dancing computerised electronic everything machine and go for something that will get you out in the bush and most importantly back home again ..
for anyone out there looking for a new Defender with the Tdi300 engine
they are available from Rover or Conrico, but you might have to wait for one to be shipped from the Uk.
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Follow Up By: Mikey - Thursday, Sep 12, 2002 at 00:00

Thursday, Sep 12, 2002 at 00:00
just a quick addition
anyone wanting info on the supply of a brand new non computerised Defender with either the Tdi 300 or the petrol V8 engine the people to contact for shipping within 24hrs is www.conrico.com
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Reply By: old soldier - Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00

Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00
Good post Matt. Finally a rational and neutral post in this ongoing and silly debate. How often do we have to put up with this Landrover thing on Exploroz??? It seems to bring out the most outlandish and unresearched statements. For instance, somebody further up the page stated that Ford had been bought out by the bayer motor werken company. From that I presume he means the Bayerische Motoren Werke AG - or BMW as we peasants call it. Strange, if BMW own Ford they don't appear to know about it. They acknowledge owning the Mini brand on their parent website - but nothing else. If anything BMW could be in danger of takeover by GM somewhere down the track in view of Ford's recent gobble up of Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover, Mazda and now Volvo. As good as the brand is, BMW is an absolute minnow compared to the likes of GM and Ford which are #1 & 2 sizewise respectively in the world. Sorry fellers, but that statement was too bloody outlandish to let pass unchallenged. Please can we have an end to all this? Its really easy to do. If you don't like Land rovers - don't bloody buy one - end of story. BTW I dont own a Land Rover, never have, never will, but I support the right of those who do, to enjoy their purchase in peace and quiet, and not have to constantly defend them against some of the "bleep" heads [put the bleep in myself] who haunt this forum.
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Reply By: Darian - Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00

Sunday, Sep 01, 2002 at 00:00
Don't know much about Landrovers, but I have to ask....does anyone who owns a Defender consider them comfortable enough to undertake long trips?. I sat in one 3 years back...for 10 seconds....got out laughing...it was horrendous.....seems every factor except the human had been covered. I like the vehicle concept, but how can someone stay at the wheel all day ? (ever noticed them on the road and on TV - most drivers have their arm out the window...sit in one and you'll see why ...reckon rear seat passengers would stage a mutiny too)......dp
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Follow Up By: Tony - Monday, Sep 02, 2002 at 00:00

Monday, Sep 02, 2002 at 00:00
Darian,

yes, I own a Defender, and it is one of the most comfortable long distance vehicles I have ever driven. The seating position is very upright, which suits my bad back, and the seats are very supportive. I have driven many thousands of km, including Darwin to Perth without complaint. I find the standard Landcruiser seats and driving position abysmal. I can sit in a Hilux for about a minute before my back starts playing up. I agree about the back seats though, they are really only suitable for occasional use or for small children, but as I don't have to carry back seat passengers I don't care, for most trips I take them out.

These posts make me laugh. Someone said that Land Rover owners have an inferiority complex but it is always ToyoNissan w*nkmobile owners that start these posts. Simply because they would prefer to drive something mainstream such as a Blandcruiser than stand out a bit.

The worst thing that manufacturers ever did was make 4wds comfortable. You now get far more w*nkers out in the bush now than in the past, people who wouldn't venture from their armchair unless they could travel in similar comfort, with the windows up, the stereo blaring and the airconditioner on. Great way to experience the bush!
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Reply By: Cruiser - Wednesday, Sep 04, 2002 at 00:00

Wednesday, Sep 04, 2002 at 00:00
As another ex-digger, I can only lend my voice to the pro-Landrover lobby, albeit somewhat grudgingly. No, I would not buy one - I drive a turbo-diesel Land Cruiser with proper (leaf) springs.
But, starting in the sixties, I have many, many miles of some serious 4-wheeling behind me, in country which nowadays is mostly unavailable to today's crop of technological wonders. Lots of it cross-country, in conditions that make the Canning Stock Route, Gibb River Road and Gunbarrel Highway seem like a picnic. (Did the Gunbarrel not too many years after Len Beadell first 'made' it). Sure, I remember lying in the bottom of a sandy creekbed because an axle or diff had sh*t itself. I remember the lousy excuses for seats. But they always got me home. And I agree with 'Old Soldier' when he says that we don't really need the slanging matches on this forum. Those who drive Landrovers of any model are entitled to do so - I respect their choice and will always have a snatch strap to offer them (Joke!!) Cheers, Cruiser.
AnswerID: 6333

Reply By: winaje - Wednesday, Sep 04, 2002 at 00:00

Wednesday, Sep 04, 2002 at 00:00
Any vehicle with a computer is vulnerable to some extent, no doubt about that. But people will buy what they want, even if advised/warned against it. It's their choice. I feel that the time has come to stop bashing ANY particular vehicle. Informative feedback on vehicles is what this forum is about, not rubbishing ANY vehicle or product. This topic seems to raise its had every 6 weeks or so, and I for one don't see the sense or reason in it. Is it just to inflame discussion and bickering? It would definitely seem so. Does it have any real positive outcome? Not really. ALSO, please note that at no time has there been any reference to any particular vehicle in this post, even though I own a 4WD. PLEASE stop this senseless waste of time and board space. Bill Church
AnswerID: 6338

Follow Up By: Willie - Friday, Sep 06, 2002 at 00:00

Friday, Sep 06, 2002 at 00:00
Like the TV, mate......you can switch it off at any time. So you do not have to read this discussion or comments. Most of what was said here is tongue in cheek stuff. Every little bit of sensible information is valid. No one is cluttering up the forum.....cyberspace is HUGE. Lighten up Bill, don't be so serious. Cheers, Willie
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Reply By: Chris - Wednesday, Sep 11, 2002 at 00:00

Wednesday, Sep 11, 2002 at 00:00
Yes, it’s an essay but you don’t have to read it:

I’ve had experience with both Land Rovers and Toyota’s. There are advantages and disadvantages to both and both have their place in this world. Speak to most people in Australia and the Middle East and they will tell you that Toyota’s are the way to go. Anyone in UK, Europe and Africa will say Land Rover. Why? Well because it’s the most popular vehicle in the area, meaning that the local mechanic should be able to sort it out pretty quickly and he’ll easily be able to get the part needed at a reasonable cost. For me this is probably the most important factor in purchasing a 4WD because eventually something will break on any vehicle when it's pushed to its limit or just from normal wear and tear.

I have owned a 1975 FJ40 (petrol), a 1985 Sahara (diesel) and have just ordered a new 100 series (diesel) Toyota. I chose this because I think it’s the best all round vehicle for Australian conditions. I.E. It’s got a wide track and a long wheel base making it good on road, good at carrying large loads and no-one doubts its good off the road ability. It’s an excellent vehicle all round for the long trips we do here in Australia and that’s what one needs. Lets face it most of the driving (90%) on a long trip will be done on bumpy dusty roads where 4WD is not necessary. The other advantage is that every other bloke and his dog thinks the same, so parts are easy to get.

I have also lived I the UK for the last 5 years, where Land Rover’s out number Toyota’s a zillion to one. Why? Cause till recently they were a local brand (previously the only brand) and just perfect for farmers to bumble up and down the country lanes and perform all the duties required of them. On road they do bumble along (I’m talking about the Defender) but off road they excel and their articulation (amount of independent vertical wheel travel) far out ways the Toyota’s.

In January this year I was given the opportunity to do a month long trip from Johannesburg to Northern Mozambique in a TDI 200. The Land Rover in question was owned by a South African mate of mine, which he bought in Yorkshire (Northern England) 18 months prior and then drove to South Africa. It took him 7 months. He rolled it once in Ethiopia about a third of the way into his trip. The body was repaired by locals using house aluminium window frames riveted onto the body (windscreen frame and door window frames). The engine work was repaired by him a non-mechanic type, but armed with the Hanes manual he fixed it, he continued the rest of the way and the vehicle remained in J’Berg.

We left from J’Berg in what looked like an old clapped out Defender but was only a 1992 model (it had a hard life). It carried a roof top tent, Zodiac inflatable with 30 horse power outboard, food for a month, 50 litres of water, 5 jerry’s of diesel, 2 jerry’s of petrol for the boat and virtually another Defender of spare parts in the back. You could say we were overloaded, but we had to be. We were going 7000kms round trip in a month and the roads were just as bad (some probably worse) than what we get in Australia. We had a great time and got to some of the islands off the coast of Africa in the Straits of Madagascar in the Zodiac. If I were to do it again I would choose the Toyota as I think it would have coped a lot better on the long bumpy stretches of pot-holed rutted dirt roads and would have handled the load better. The Land Rover coped, just, and nearly got us through everything (we had to be pulled out once by a passing articulated truck) but like I said, only 10% of the driving was true 4Wdriving.

My personal preference is for a Toyota but I also recognise the fact that other makes can do it just as well. This is what makes the world such a great place, ITS DIFFERENCES, and our right to have our own choice should be respected.

AnswerID: 6555

Follow Up By: Mikey - Thursday, Sep 12, 2002 at 00:00

Thursday, Sep 12, 2002 at 00:00
Nice trip chris
and you have the right idea about why you pick your 4wd ease of repair and parts availability.
the fact that your friends Defender was rolled and then repaired with whatever you could find is a demonstration of why they are used in the third world etc, they are the only car that can be driven with all the body removed. and they are easy to repair.
I bet you didnt see a Td5 in Africa....
not too sure why you thought that the defender struggled with the load you were carrying though, maybe its springs were a bit tired.
I have just returned from a 14,000km trip mostly off road lots of it classed as extreme off road by the guys at Hema maps.
my vehicle is a Landrover County 110 V8 with the 3.5L Rover engine which has done 430,820kms and has had no engine , gearbox or axle/diff work at all, although the car is totally abused. ( maybe its because it gets all the oils changed every month)
the load we were carrying on our trip was what most people would call Extreme to the point of ridiculous. the following list is just an example:
200L of water
420L of petrol ( yes 420L of petrol ) its a V8
20 L of assorted oils
5L of brake fluid
5L power steering fluid
20L kerosene ( to light fires with)
enough food for 2 months ( not forgetting the beer and wine )
large tool box (56kgs)
large selection of spare parts including full set of suspension,brake and clutch master and slave cylinders,etc etc totaling (85kgs)
3 spare wheels, 1 tyre casing , 10 inner tubes and of course all the gear for repairing tyres ( BF Goodrich Mud Terrains excellent not one puncture)
recovery gear including an 8 ton tirfor hand winch with 30m of cable
drag chains
60m of spare winch cable
3 X 20 m winch extension straps
2 X snatch straps
2 X tree protector straps
4 X snatch blocks
chain saw
electric tyre compressor and 2 foot pumps (just in case)
9 Kg gas bottle
20kgs of split logs ( just incase we couldnt find fire wood)
all our Camping gear including tables and chairs
cast iron barbecue for where you are not allowed ground fires
enough clothes for 2 months etc .etc .etc .
and a very large 2 person canoe on the roof.
the weight was distributed throughout the vehicle with approx 300kg on the roof.
the fully laden vehicle was weighed in at 4.27tons.
throughout our trip we only had one mishap which was when we hit a deep washout at 60kms/hr on a dirt road near an aboriginal community
this resulted in a front coil spring snapping .
after checking the damaged spring we carried on for another 90Kms on 3 and a half springs still travelling at around 50kms/hr until we intersected the tar seal, at which time I pulled in to a roadside stop away from the dust to change the broken spring.
even with our grossly overweight Landrover we drove over some of the most Extreme 4wding Australia has to offer without any problems.
there were places where people had parked their cars and were walking for km after km to get to places as they thought their car couldnt get there. they were dumbfounded when we drove past them.
Ruby Gap was one such place, we drove all the way to glen annie gorge and camped right at the end ( this was open to vehicles but Extreme)
Big Red was ascended from the west on the first attempt with tyre pressures down to 12psi. and many many more .
so I guess the Landrover is capable of carrying big loads if the suspension is in good condition.
and the V8s supremacy over the dunes is outstanding but thats any Petrol V8 not only Landrover.
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FollowupID: 2944

Reply By: Chris - Thursday, Sep 12, 2002 at 00:00

Thursday, Sep 12, 2002 at 00:00
Mickey, I guess we didn’t have as much as we though after reading what you took. I’m amazed! I say our Defender, a 110 Tdi, wasn’t happy with the load because it swayed and dived all over the road, it just didn’t feel stable. On reflection it could have been any number of reasons, firstly because I’ve always had Toyota’s with wide tubeless tyres and the Defender had the original tall skinny tyres and I just wasn’t used to them. Secondly our Defender had 6 months ago, previously driven from London to Cape Town, it had new bushes etc, and a major service but still the springs and shocks had done a lot of work. And thirdly, from a pure physics point of view I would think the wider track of the Toyota would enhance stability.

As I mentioned in my last post, there were many more Land Rovers or more precisely, Defenders in Africa. Many people had been converted to the Toyota Troopie though, and I envisage the percentage of Toyota’s on the road out there will overtake that of Land Rover, partly because of size and partly because of cost. I am however (being a Toyota fan) disappointed that an institution, that which is ‘Land Rover’, is in decline. But that seems to be the way with a lot of things in Africa at the moment.

Cheers,
Chris
AnswerID: 6573

Follow Up By: Mikey - Friday, Sep 13, 2002 at 00:00

Friday, Sep 13, 2002 at 00:00
Hi Chris
the narrower 750x16 tyres fitted to many Defenders does make them wallow about quite a bit, I use 235x85x16 BFG Mud Terrains on mine,
the other thing that makes them wallow is a worn or loose steering drop arm, these have a habit of working loose , wider track definately does improve stability, I don't know the measurements of a Landcruiser so I dont know how they compare.
the decline of the Landrover population is probably due to all the silly new electronics they have put on it, such as the radio transmitter/receiver throttle linkage and the hill descent controls linked to the Abs system. great in town but out in the wilderness its a different story.
Toyota however have stayed with the easy repair old reliable things like throttle cables in their troopie / comercial Landcruiser.
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FollowupID: 2959

Reply By: Jase - Saturday, Sep 21, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Sep 21, 2002 at 00:00
Hi guys, thought I might pop my two cents worth in seeing every one else has :-). I've owned a few 4x4s over the years, including a couple of Patrols, a 60 series Landcruiser and a Jackaroo. I upgraded from the Jackaroo to a '97 Discovery V8. I'm pleased to say that the Disco has just clocked 180,000km with only routine servicing required. It has never let me down, and is used every day for a 100km round trip to work and goes on trips in the bush about twice a month. Funnily enough, my L/R never cracked a head gasket at 90,000km like my GQ Patrol...and hasn't decided to die at traffic lights like the Jackaroo :-). It's a lot a lot more comfortable than the old 60, which had a habit of breaking alternators.... and geez it was slow on the open road! Sure the L/R is the quirkiest car I've owned (everything is backward, even the bonnet release is on the passenger side!), but you can't bag the brand based on some rumour you hear on the Internet! I will say that the Disco is very thirsty, but otherwise can't complain at all. I'm looking to get a 3.0TD Patrol or 100 Series Diesel Landcruiser when the Disco hits about 250,000 because I like to try different cars and also I will need the extra space (kid on the way + two already!), but I can honeslty say I've enjoyed the L/R ownership so far....so long live the Landies!
AnswerID: 6804

Reply By: Member - Des - Saturday, Sep 21, 2002 at 00:00

Saturday, Sep 21, 2002 at 00:00
I,ve got a series 2a for sale should anyone want it. Des
AnswerID: 6808

Reply By: Brian da Disco luva - Sunday, Sep 29, 2002 at 00:00

Sunday, Sep 29, 2002 at 00:00
1. The only LR product developed under BMW was the latest RangeRover
2. The Td5 engine use a fly by wire throtle body not RF
3. If you care to look at a Defender brochure/owners manual I think you will be hard pressed to find a power window switch
4. The ECU is dust proofed however a lot of connections like points type ignitions are not so I can't see the difference
5. My Disco (94 3.9l) has has water 100mm up the windscreen, mud half way up the doors, I can't comment on dust as none gets in.
6. I suggest that you send your views on the latest LR products not being true to the marque to LR HQ in Solihull and see what they reply.
7. If you think being a Luddite in and ancient design with (by todays standard) limited HARD off road capabilities makes you an expert then I can see why you once chose a Pajero.
In parting to the owners of other brands a LR product is as capable and reliable as any other IF it is maintined correctly, LR products do not respond to lack of care like the Japanese, the old saying " you get out what you put in"
AnswerID: 7032

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