Expensive repair

Submitted: Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 13:53

ThreadID: 18807 Views:3162 Replies:9 FollowUps:9

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beatit

Hi everyone,

Just got my copy of 4wd monthly, well I wanted the deflators and the leatherman, so I guess I'll be reading them for a while. In there was a letter to the editor from a guy in SA with a 100 series that broke its IFS in the WA outback. The damage cost him $12,000 and he is looking to blame either Toyota or ARB for the problem. Don't know anything about the situation but the photo shows a fairly new set up and it occurred to me that it would be useful to make these type of situations known to this forum.

My thinking here is, rather than bag the vehicle or the suspension upgrade, that this forum could be used to offer some clout as group to keep the b**stards honest. By having these issues aired in a open and widely read forum it may ultimately cause the guilty party to cough up. As an individual we stand only a small chance against big business and when big dollars are involved I am convinced they would rather not pay and will look for any excuse not to do so. Even though this guy (who I don't know from a bar of soap) has his own avenues of recourse it would seem useful to us all if the manufacturers are more concerned about us as a group.

Sorry if this seems like some semi political issue but I for one have been burned by big business and can relate to his situation. Sure some problems are self inflicted but I for one would like to see less denial of resposibility by manufacturers as their first choice response and maybe they should tell you up front what they will or will not do (and I don't mean by way of microscopic gooblygook on the warranty document).

Well I feel better now that I have made an effort to make the world a better place for all 4 wheel drivers.

Kind regards

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Reply By: ianmc - Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 14:13

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 14:13

Hard to see how an aftermarket suspension setup would lead to failure & it would be interesting to have feedback on how many un modifieds have had the same proble.
As I have said before how long shall it be before someone is killed or injured before a recall is implemented??? Probably dont have a fix for it unless they gave 100 owners a new Pootrol as replacement LOL!

AnswerID: 90053

Follow Up By: muzzimbidgie - Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 15:12

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 15:12

Hi there.

I have heard soft rumblings that all is not what it seems with a few IFS 100 series cruisers, when put through really serious conditions.

Me not bagging Toyota, or cruisers, just small jabs written in some 4x4 mags that imply they know more than they are willing to let on !!!

Cheers,

Muzz

FollowupID: 348813

Reply By: Rick Blaine - Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 15:15

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 15:15

Forums like this do tend to keep people honest... especially if you mention that you are going to "Review" their services here....but any reviews have to be ballanced & objective to do the job.. It didn't take Holden long to realise that a few of my posts concerning my Jack and it's problems were going to be a headache and it would be better to resolve the issues rather than have me going on adnauseum here....If you want to see just how sucessful a Net Forum can be at keeping people honest take a look at FunInAustralia. com....

AnswerID: 90060

Reply By: Member - Captain (WA) - Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 15:29

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 15:29

Hi beatit,

Don't know where you have been, but its been well discussed on this and many other forums about the problems with the cruiser IFS. It appears more common on those with aftermarket accessories ie. bullbar, winch, shocks, torsion bars, but has also been reported many times on stock standard vehicles.

The common link in all of them is that they have done a noteable amount of gravel (corrugated) driving. It appears that the torsion bar mounting points suffer serious stress fatigue on the A frame and even when this has been re-inforced, the chassis ends then start to suffer as well.

I canot see how anything short of a recall can rectify the problem, but you can well imagine the cost of upgrading a major suspension component. I have yet to see the article (we in the west always seem to get our copy late!) but its the first time I have seen this issue raised in the print media. Maybe now Toyota will be forced to either publicly defend their postion (how??) or a recall will be forthcoming at a huge cost to toyota, not only finacially but also reputation wise.

This issue may be why there are runours of a return to live axle for the cruiser on some models (yes - I know the std still has a live axle, but how many 4.2TD owners/potential owners would like a live axle!).

Cheers

Captain

AnswerID: 90066

Follow Up By: beatit - Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 16:47

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 16:47

G'day Captain,

I was vaguely aware of the IFS issue in the Toyo's but seeing this picture was almost heart breaking. I was just thinking that as if this guy hasn't suffered enough - can you imagine having this sort of thing happening in the middle of your holiday - he now has to do battle with a couple of large companies, one of whom as you have pointed out, should be/is aware of the problem.

Don't expect to change the world according to Toyo but I think that their dirty laundry should be hung out for some public airing from time to time. I don't own a Toyo and have no axe to grind, it is just the big business approach that gets under my skin.

By the way like the looks of your rig, almost the same as mine.

Kind regards
and a Merry Xmas.

FollowupID: 348820

Follow Up By: Utemad - Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 17:57

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 17:57

The problem was mentioned in a "4x4 Australia" issue recently. There was a LC100 on one of the magazines big trips that had the same failure during the trip. They welded it up on the side of the track. I assume it had aftermarket suspension but not sure.

FollowupID: 348831

Reply By: Gossy - Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 15:55

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 15:55

I am a Nissan owner, but I have probably done more bush bashing in Landcruisers (Tanami, Kakadu, Litchfield etc). I have noticed over the past couple of years that Toyota have made their veh's for the masses and have gone "soft". It's a real shame as they are a great veh but with stories of the IFS etc going around, it should be a wake up call for them to fix it up once and for all and look back at the last couple of years as a "learning curve".
No veh is perfect but Toyota are really giving Nissan the edge at the moment for the 4wd market in my view.

AnswerID: 90074

Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:29

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:29

A big machine like the Cruiser or Patrol is never going to be as smooth going as a S 500 Merc so why compromise the real purpose of these kind of vehicles. The solid front axle is obviously the necessary arrangement needed upfront so why stuff with it. Toyoya will have to push on and ignore or admit there is a problem. Either way its going to be a drama for them!!!!

FollowupID: 348883

Reply By: Member - Chrispy (NSW) - Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 16:57

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 16:57

Pinched from an Overlander forum thread:
**********************************

I've just received a reply from Toyota regarding the front end failures:

Dear XXXXXX, (I removed name)

Toyota Australia have recently become aware of reports of damage to lower control arms on Toyota L/C 100 series fitted with IFS front suspension where non genuine front suspension modifications or suspension setting changes have been made and where the vehicle has then been operated in severe conditions.
The L/C 100 series IFS suspension has been available on L/C 100 series since 1998, but these damage reports have only been received recently, coinciding with the widespread availability of modified suspension components for this suspension version.
Toyota is actively investigating these damage reports as part of our ongoing product quality monitoring processes and will provide further advice to our dealers and customers as soon as possible.
Toyota dealers will inspect any vehicle presented with this condition and if damage is confirmed on vehicles with modified suspensions, customers will be advised to discuss the matter with the supplier of the modified components.
In some instances Toyota have recovered damaged parts from customers through our warranty process in order to assist in our investigations.

Hope this is of assistance.

Ian Chenney
Customer Relations Adviser
CFDD
Toyota Motor Corporation Australia Limited
Fax: 02 9710 3955
Email: Ian.Chenney@toyota.com.au

********************************
(From the poster - a LC100 owner) Feel free to email Toyota and ask them why LC100s with IFS are unable to be fitted with a bullbar, winch, and driven in the great Australian bush.

AnswerID: 90083

Follow Up By: rb30s - Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 17:54

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 17:54

If you look at the L/C adds on TV, they dont just get driven in the Australian bush... they BULLDOZE it!.......With adds like that, the IFS should be able to take anything!!!!???

Adrian

FollowupID: 348829

Follow Up By: Coops (Pilbara) - Friday, Dec 24, 2004 at 10:01

Friday, Dec 24, 2004 at 10:01

I couldn't imagine why anyone would want to buy a new cruiser and then fit off road accessories so that they could use it in 4WD could you?

What are Toyota execs on ?

FollowupID: 348929

Reply By: Member - Ed. C.- Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 18:04

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 18:04

Hmmm,
As noted above, there does appear to be a common link in that the vehicles had been operated in "severe conditions".. i.e corrugated gravel roads....

I wonder if anyone has any data to indicate whether or not there is another common link (apart from the modified suspension components)...
i.e. TYRE PRESSURES, and SPEED!! (sorry for shouting)...

It has been my experience that the likelihood of these sorts of failures will be greatly reduced if people will simply reduce their tyre pressures ESPECIALLY on corrugations, and reduce speed accordingly...

Not defending Toyota (I'm a 'Nissan man' after all), but as long as people insist on *hammering* their suspension by driving on corrugated roads at high speed & on highway pressures, then sooner or later something is going to break!!...

JMO (gained from personal experience & observation),
& Have a Merry Xmas everyone!

Regards, Ed. C.

Confucius say.....
"He who lie underneath automobile with tool in hand,
....Not necessarily mechanic!!"

Member
My Profile Send Message

AnswerID: 90088

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 18:17

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 18:17

Hi Ed,

I can see where you are coming from, but in Australia one can hardly call corrugated gravel roads "severe conditions", in fact its the norm for the majority of our country roads.

Cheers

Captain

FollowupID: 348836

Follow Up By: Member - Ed. C.- Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 20:16

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 20:16

G'day Captain,
Yes, I agree with you...
I borrowed the "severe conditions" term from the reply from Toyota, as posted by Chrispy (above)... Toyota's term, not mine...

It is certainly true that every vehicle should be designed to be able to cope with the worst conditions likely to be encountered in the operating environment in which the vehicle is intended to be used... (sadly, not always the case)...
However, I will stand by my previous comments re tyre pressures & speed on corrugated surfaces...

Regards, Ed. C.

Confucius say.....
"He who lie underneath automobile with tool in hand,
....Not necessarily mechanic!!"

Member
My Profile Send Message

FollowupID: 348856

Reply By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 20:16

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 20:16

I like the way they a linking modified suspension to these failers.
It's kind of like saying that your more likley to have a puncture if you have BFG mud terrains on.
Purley because people with BFG Mud Terrains obviously drive off road! People with Highway Tyres drive on the highway and are much less at risk of punctures.

It would make sense to me that your standard LC100 with factory suspension problally does a lot less off road work than your LC100 with upgraded suspension, therefore the car with upgraded suspension is under a lot more stress at the front end, it probally has 2 thirds to bugger all with the fact that they upgraded their suspension.

AnswerID: 90115

Reply By: Member - Luxoluk - Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:24

Thursday, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:24

If we all wait long enough I suspect 4WD Monthly will publish the, "Complete Guide to Suspension" for 100 series IFS and then we will all have the answers?? Yeah yeah....!!

I have watched the Canning Stock Route video by Lifestyle Productions and it was interesting to see a 100 series, IFS suspended, pull the base mount off one shocker and fry the seal in the replacement unit. I suspect the front shockers are probably retaining the downward suspension travel and are under more duress given the charactoristics of twisting metal rather than compressing springs. Love me yotas but I think the whole IFS setup is flawed for any significant application??

AnswerID: 90138

Reply By: Nudenut - Friday, Dec 24, 2004 at 08:13

Friday, Dec 24, 2004 at 08:13

"where Non Genuine front suspension modifications or suspension setting changes have been made and where the vehicle has then been Operated in Severe Conditions"

Are these the only two points which are common to the failure? Nothing else mentioned ie Standard IFS....if this is the case then warranty is void?

But it does seem a little strange that the engineering of the vehicle cant accept the beefed up suspension...or does it?

maybe the upgrade is incorrect from a engineering point?

AnswerID: 90175

Follow Up By: beatit - Friday, Dec 24, 2004 at 09:06

Friday, Dec 24, 2004 at 09:06

G'day Nudenut,

It is a minefield I reckon but maybe more interesting is that these buggers sell you the warranty on your vehicle knowing full well you'll be driving out and making these mods and taking it off road. They have a ready out when it suits them and I wonder if that isn't an argument for them knowingly selling you something of no value (misrepresentation).

Kind regards

FollowupID: 348920