Commonsense has prevailed

Submitted: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 08:37
ThreadID: 23086 Views:2839 Replies:17 FollowUps:30
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http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Costa-vetoes-nogo-zones-for-4WDs/2005/05/17/1116095964748.html

In the SMH today ...

"A coroner's call to ban four-wheel-drives from stopping within 200 metres of primary and infants schools was promptly opposed by the State Government yesterday.

The Roads Minister, Michael Costa, also rejected suggestions for a special licence for such cars, instead proposing "proximity alarms" inside the vehicles.

The recommendations by the senior deputy State Coroner, Jacqueline Milledge, arise from the inquest into the death of five-year-old Bethany Holder at Pittwater House School in Collaroy.

Ms Milledge also recommended that schools, local council traffic committees and police review and better control traffic safety near schools.

"I am not going to let arrogant people who think that the roads belong to them and who think that they should be able to take their kids right to the door step to drop them off get away with it," she promised Bethany's parents.

Bethany was run over by a slow-moving Nissan Patrol inside the school grounds in July 2002. Daniel and Lisa Holder welcomed the recommendations.

The driver, a trained rally enthusiast, yesterday told the court she had looked around and had not seen the girl, but had stopped her car when she felt a "thud".
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Joan Maclennansaid she would never again drive a four-wheel drive and had tried to stop her friends from buying one.

Outside the court she called on people to think again: "I don't think they are a safe vehicle; I don't see the point of having them on city roads," she said.

The Pedestrian Council's Harold Scruby praised the recommendations, which he said would save lives. "These deaths are avoidable … if we train people with four-wheel-drives how to drive and how dangerous they can be," he said.

The NSW Education Minister, Carmel Tebbutt, said she had asked the department to review the issue of cars in school grounds and be vigilant in monitoring and managing traffic near schools.

The Opposition spokesman on roads, Andrew Stoner, said drop-off zones near schools should be reviewed to ensure all cars, not just four-wheel-drives, were not involved in such tragedies.

Mr Stoner said the Opposition rejected special licences for the cars and their restrictions around schools.

Mr Costa said the Roads and Traffic Authority would review the recommendations but "at first glance" they appeared unworkable. Special licences would have to be introduced nationally, but would not gain his support.

However, he suggested that special alarms could be made compulsory in four-wheel-drives to alert drivers if they were moving close to any object.

The NRMA also rejected most of the proposals but encouraged owners of large four-wheel-drives to take voluntary defensive driving courses.

At Cammeray Public School yesterday afternoon parents with four-wheel-drives suggested the main problem was not the cars, but unsafe drivers.

Graham Hunter, who was waiting to pick up his seven-year-old daughter from the school, said he would go along with the recommendations. He said he usually parked his four-wheel-drive away from the school anyway.

But he warned some drivers behaved like they were "king of the road".

Jenny Clark, who said she had been driving four-wheel-drives for 20 years, welcomed the idea of training courses for drivers.

"It's the drivers. Every vehicle has a potential to kill," she said.

She had parked some distance from the school despite the rain and said this helped her teach the children road skills.

Meanwhile, her daughter complained about having to walk in the rain rather than being picked up by car in front of the school.

The president of the Local Government Association, Councillor Genia McCaffery, said schools already co-operated with councils but often parents "were difficult to control".

"I think we should get into education and enforcement before we get into huge expenditure," Cr McCaffery said of the senior deputy State Coroner's recommendation for traffic risk assessments at all schools."
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Reply By: robak (QLD) - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 08:49

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 08:49
I think this woman who was driving the 4WD is trying to blame the car, rather then taking responsibilty for what she did.

R.
AnswerID: 111753

Follow Up By: ev700 - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 09:32

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 09:32
Regretably she was probably concentrating on what she had to do next and didn't check properly. Possibly she took off at speed - she reports hearing a 'thud'.

I prefer the international rules for navigation at sea where it is just not on for the master of a vessel to blame the ship/conditions/hormones or whatever.

In nautical terms, she failed to maintain a sufficient lookout to avoid a collision and this resulted in death.

From the reports she hasn't thought of disqualifying herslf from driving, only the particular car. A driver who doesn't maintain sufficient lookout is just as dangerous in a BMW, Camry or motorbike.

EV700
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Reply By: Member - bushfix - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 08:50

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 08:50
Minister Costa (I believe) is quite a keen 4by driver himself so that is an advantage while he holds that office.
AnswerID: 111754

Reply By: Member - DOZER- Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 09:30

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 09:30
People, having almost ran over my daughter some years back,whilst reversing out the garage, i am all for keeping cars out of schools altogether.....and children off the roads.... Some small cars are just as bad as 4wd with regard to vision out the back....and children arnt focussed on staying away from cars asmuch as having fun.... The proposition was unworkable, and has been rejected.
My cruiser has never been back in that garage since.....and that fixed the problem without me selling all cars and walking....
Andrew
b4 you bag me out, walk a mile in my shoes, then your a mile away and have my shoes :)

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AnswerID: 111758

Follow Up By: ev700 - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 09:38

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 09:38
Horrifying experience.

You're right, physical separation is the key.

I still drive spouse nuts checking to see where the kids are. My 13 yr is great with mechanical things and is just as likely to be squatting alongside checking there is no oil drip etc.
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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Thursday, May 19, 2005 at 07:55

Thursday, May 19, 2005 at 07:55
anyone know where the child carers were when this tragedy struck?
How or why was it that a 5yr old can get so close to a car without proper supervision!
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Reply By: Member - Smocky (NSW) - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 09:40

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 09:40
Yeh I watched the news last night and Bob Carr and Michael Costa both realise how impractical it is. I have it on good authority from a government official that the government isn't even discussing this issue at all.

I like this quote though "drop-off zones near schools should be reviewed to ensure all cars, not just four-wheel-drives, were not involved in such tragedies" Should be more of that.

That article is one of the better ones I've seen. Most of the quotes in it are quite common sense and almost everyone is disagreeing with the coroner.

I thought this was interesting though from the coroner: "I am not going to let arrogant people who think that the roads belong to them and who think that they should be able to take their kids right to the door step to drop them off get away with it," she promised Bethany's parents. THEN SHE WENT ON TO ONLY SUGGEST BANNING 4WD'S !!!!!!! Interesting. I hope she is challenged on that and it doesn't slip through the cracks. So it's arrogant drivers, so why only ban 4wd's over 2 tonnes?

Let's hope sanity KEEPS prevailing.

Cheers all, stay safe.

Smocky.
AnswerID: 111761

Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 12:23

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 12:23
Rather an emotive and it appears irrational coroner making statements like that.
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Follow Up By: Member - Smocky (NSW) - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 13:18

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 13:18
Exactly.
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Reply By: ralph_s.a - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 09:55

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 09:55
just a thought,
i'm not sure the media and public are that concerned with legitimate 4x4 users (as im sure we all are). i belive the real gripe is the "soccer mums& dads". They purchase top end 4x4s and then dont see an ounce of dirt. this is another minority group within our minority group that is ruining the game for the rest of us who actually use the "funny little second gear stick". maybe bring in a similar licencing system to gun laws, eg, (sounds bad i know) you have to register with a national park in some way, to indicate that you are actually utilising your 4x4 for what it was intended for. i know this is not perfect but it is -just a thought.
AnswerID: 111762

Follow Up By: Scubaroo - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 10:14

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 10:14
Sadly it's the other way around - the offroading 4WD group is the minority group amongst 4WD owners.
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Follow Up By: BenSpoon - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 13:05

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 13:05
Ralph, thats about the only anti-4WD type suggestion I agree with. I reckon it would be abrilliant idea to incorporate a national parks membership as a compulsory part of your rego. Bump the rego up $20 or so, and I'd have no dramas with that. Then we can argue we are doing at least a little more than regular car drivers, I'd get my parks pass that I buy anyway and there would be a broad increase in funding for parks, which we would all benefit from.
I would only hope the extra funding wouldnt have any correlation with the number of "no entry" signs on park tracks.
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Reply By: Member - Troopytrek - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 10:21

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 10:21
G'Day All'
There are a few points that I would like to make. The school that my children attend [to my knowledge] has never had an incident like this,and there is a very slim chance that they will!! They have [and have had for several years now] a drop of zone, in this zone there is no reversing or overtaking. The vehicles come in off the street in single file to collect the children. there is a fenced area along the side of the building in the zone and every afternoon there are 2 or 3 teachers on duty . 1 supervises keeping vehicles moving , no overtaking etc while the other teacher/s supervise children leaving the fenced area to get into there car as there ride arrives. I beleive that this is something that we all as parents can see introduced into our schools every where, after all it is to supervise & protect the most precious things in our lives. Secondly I myself would not comment as to the innocence or guilt of the lady in question because have seen so many times before how easy accidents canhappen. Just because it was probably the most TRAGIC of accidents that can happen still an accident. All we can do as parents is try to take our minds off the every day hussle & rush rush rush and no matter what we are doing concentrate on the job at hand and watch out for children in general not just our children because these accidents can happen anywhere not just at schools. As for for a punishment I beleive that this lady has already received life for the accident because no matter the cause whether be neglect or lack of concentration that caused this terrible mishap she has to live with this until she dies!!!!
AnswerID: 111765

Reply By: Wizard1 - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 12:03

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 12:03
I'm not sure I agree with you all on this issue. I for one, see the licensing of 4W Drivers as a good way to stop those that are not capable or competent to operate a vehicle, which in some cases is a light rigid vehicle, on public roads and in confined spaces (car parks, etc). How many times have we seen people driving a cruiser that can barely see over the steering wheel let alone have any situational awareness or visability to see a child.

In the defence force you cannot operate a 4WD on or off road unless you have been trained and assessed as competent to operate it and then licensed.

They should limit the operation of Off Road/Soft Roaders to those holding car licenses and leave the real vehicles to those that need to have one and are capable of driving them.

I paid for my wife to do a 4WD course so that she could "operate" , not only drive the vehicle.

We should limit the operation of 4WD to those that genuinly need or want to drive one, rather than use them as an urban assault vehicle and/or domestic taxi.

Wizard
Prado TD
Gold Coast

AnswerID: 111775

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 12:27

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 12:27
We should limit the operation of 4WD to those that genuinly need or want to drive one, rather than use them as an urban assault vehicle and/or domestic taxi.

Not trying to make this a $$ arguement, but what would that do to sales??
Prices of said cars for those of us that DO use them offroad would quadruple maybe worse?? Sales would drop by about 70%, and the cars would become so overpriced, that they wouldnt bother importing them at all.
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (WA) - Thursday, May 19, 2005 at 02:23

Thursday, May 19, 2005 at 02:23
Dunno about that T before they were mums taxi we only had genuine 4bys 4o series Tojos Landies that were as rough as guts, Dunno what Nissans had but that would have been just as tough. Now mum wants a drive we have 3.0l nissans IFS Tojos more soft roaders than - well I dunno and lets not even mention landrover
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Reply By: flappa - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 12:33

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 12:33
Sorry , I'm having trouble here.

Can someone point me in the direction of the legislation that outlaws Soccer Mums and Dads , and NON offroad people from OWNING a 4wd.

Cant seem to find it anywhere . . .

Oh . . . thats right . . .

THERE ISN'T ANY . . .
AnswerID: 111782

Follow Up By: Capt. Wrongway - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 13:04

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 13:04
Well said Flappa, is not just our rights, it's everyone's. Start going down that track and we'll all be driving yellow Kia's, with safety vests and helmets.
Bazza.
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Follow Up By: flappa - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 13:14

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 13:14
I tell you what .

No wonder 4wds are being victimised , when we cant even agree between OURSELVES.

Why are we arguing that these "Soccer Mums" have no right to drive a 4wd.

Do we PERSONALLY know these people , their circumstances , their family requirements . . . NO . . . NIL . . . NADDA.

4wds are used for FAR more then just going Offroad . . . heck , I have forgotten what the low range lever looks like . . .

My VERY LARGE AND NOT VERY FUEL EFFICIENT Petrol Patrol , is used far more for School Duties and Soccer Duties then any actually offroad driving.

Who here wants to argue that I have NO RIGHT to drive it ?

As they say in the classics . . .

United we stand . . . divided we fall.
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FollowupID: 368143

Follow Up By: Member - Smocky (NSW) - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 13:28

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 13:28
Fair spray.

besides, my NSW standard license (and therefore everyone else's including 5' near sighted, partially deaf people) allows me to drive a 12 seat bus or a 3T truck !!!!!

This is such a nonsense argument talking about 2T 4wd's. It really is bull bleep .

Agree with above too, my kids' school has a "kiss 'n' drop" which is very safe.

Accidents will always happen regretably, but I wish they would look at the problem not the incident. Simple problem is NO CAR SHOULD EVER BE REVERSING IN A SCHOOL WHERE KIDS ARE WALKING. Don't let kids in the teacher's parking lot. Don't let cars in the kids walking areas, keep them on the roads and keep the kids off the roads.
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:00

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:00
Sorry I didn't realise before Raaaaaallllph pointed it out that there are legitimate 4x4 users and those that are illegitimate! What makes your reasons for purchasing a 4WD more moral than anyone else's, Raaaaaallllph?
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Follow Up By: ralph_s.a - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:43

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:43
stirred the hornets nest here ay? heh heh heh.
good point, it is left open to interpretation. to "feel like you can mow anything down in your way" in my opinion is not a legitimate reason. to take the kiddies off road to see more of our fantastic country and fellow 4x4ers, a set amount of times per year is. wouldnt you agree womby?
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 17:07

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 17:07
Raaaaaallllph, your assertion that owners of 4WDs who don't fit within the acceptability parameters which you personally have set have only puchased to "feel like you can mow anything down in your way", is not only foolish, but is also moral grandstanding and puts you in the same social genre as Harold Scruby.
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Follow Up By: ralph_s.a - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 17:29

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 17:29
you're right i should have said, -as an example-, feel like you can mow anything down ect ect. as in the far right example. or maybe picked a more extreme example, as in owning a 4x4 to run pedestrians of the road. i dont personaly belive people own 4x4s to mow anything down. id be "foolish" to think that.
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Reply By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 14:27

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 14:27
Is it just me, or is Harold Scrubby actually making sense?
AnswerID: 111792

Follow Up By: flappa - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 14:35

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 14:35
Nope . . . just you
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Reply By: ralph_s.a - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 15:26

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 15:26
what can a 4x4 in inner sydney do that a van cant?
i just dont think its practical to own a 4x4 to "feel safer in traffic" and to drop the ruggies off. still, it is just a thought?!!!!
its a hot topic i know, its great that we are so passionate about this, and -discussing- the options can only help to maybe find a solution and maybe in the long run save the life someone else's child that we might not be able to see.
AnswerID: 111800

Follow Up By: flappa - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 15:31

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 15:31
Are You Serious ?

You cant tow a Boat , you cant tow a Caravan , you cant tow a Horse Float.

Vans are big , heavy , HUGELY underpowered , and cost a FORTUNE.

Obviously spoken by someone , who has never looked at one , or had the need for one.
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Follow Up By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:13

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:13
Without our four wheel drive i would feel very restricted

With out it you couldn't Go 4 wheel driving on the weekends, show the kids around this fantastic country on holidays.
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Follow Up By: ralph_s.a - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:26

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:26
fair call flappa but,
the point was, if you dont have a legitimate use for a 4x4 then why own one? (e.g a same principal as a firearm.)
P.S if you ARE using it on weekends (crazie) then you haven't anything to worry about (as per 1st reply).
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Follow Up By: flappa - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:37

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:37
The point is . . . . I dont NEED a legit reason for owning one.

Hand my cash over , hey presto , 4wd owner.

At the moment , I DONT have a legit reason for owning one. I dont need it for work, I dont belong to a club, I dont go offroad , My CT only weighs about 650kg, but hey . . . I want one, In fact its a High end Ti Patrol . . . mostly a Status symbol at present . . .

But hey , I'm doing NOTHING illegal.

Part of the point I'm TRYING to make is . . . you start restricting access to vehicles , where's the line. ?

"WE" as in 4wd Drivers are ALWAYS complaining about restrictions to access etc , and here we are wanting to restrict peoples access to 4wds.

I didn't buy my 1st 4wd with the sole purpose of going offroad . . . that happened later.
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FollowupID: 368171

Follow Up By: Member - Smocky (NSW) - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:45

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:45
Ralph, are these legitimate reasons?

1. I never use it off road, but I feel that my family is so much safer in it.

2. I've got 4 kids and need a 7 seater

3. I never go off road, but I visit work sites a lot and it's much more practical than a Commodore.

4. I've got a bad back and can't bend down to get into those low seated sedans.

As a side issue, do WRX owners all go rally driving? Do Porsche owners all drive on a race track?

In my humble opinion, what you have touched on is at the very heart of the problem. People are arguing to legislate against what they perceive is moral or legitimate use. When did this ever enter the market.

Do you have a LEGITIMATE reason for everything you own? Of course not. We all own things we WANT and not always NEED.

The sooner everyone gets over that the better. So trends are changing, fine. They do all the time. As cars got faster and bigger, they lowered speed limits. Why not now simply separate ALL cars from kids in schools? I think it's simple. I don't care if EVERYONE drove a 4WD. If the kids were kept on the curb and the cars were kept ON THE ROAD, then there wouldn't be an issue.

Remember, this tragedy happened when a driver REVERSED on school grounds where kids walk. THAT is what should be addressed not which f*&^ing car she was driving.

Smocky.
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Follow Up By: ralph_s.a - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:53

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:53
nice work,
back in my hole.
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Follow Up By: flappa - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:58

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:58
Ralph , its NOT about getting back in your hole.

Its about education.

Your view is quite common amongst 4wds. You are entitled to a view by all means , I think all we are trying to do is to show you , that its not as easy as that.
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Follow Up By: Member - Smocky (NSW) - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 17:10

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 17:10
Hear, hear.

I wasn't meaning to shout you down Ralph, debate is essential. I was trying to explain my opinion, not just say "you're wrong".

That's kind of the problem with the Anti 4WD movement and Scrubby in general. All he does is say "4wd's are bad. Ban 4wd's. They kill people." without talking in detail about the specific problems. (Not to mention he drives a 4wd!)

I'll give you another one. They keep talking about fuel economy and the environment. Why not put pressure on car companies to make these things better? Why blame the driver?

Anyway, enough soapboxing for today.

Cheers all,

Smocky.
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Reply By: Member - ramp - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 15:52

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 15:52
hi all,
isnt it safer to put the rugrats on the bus, they play in the playground under supervison until their bus arrives are parade to the correct bus you meet them at the bus, stop have a walk and talk to them on the way home.


cheers rob
AnswerID: 111803

Reply By: Member - Karl - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:09

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:09
The two most dangerous places to drive a vehicle are:

1. The shopping centre carpark, and

2. Near a school before and after classes start.

As someone who drives in both regularly it scares the s***s of me. When I pick my sons up from school (in my Cruiser) I get there early and reverse park so that I can drive straight out. While I wait I am constantly shocked and amazed at what I see. This is not meant to be sexist but some people (mothers) have no idea and are dangerous.

I have witnessed them double park - thereby blocking off the road from other traffic - so that they could be nearer to the front exist. Two vehicles trying to park in one spot. Vehicles reversing without watching for others. And I have witnessed them do this whilst they are talking on their mobile phones.

And then some of the things I have seen at shopping centres have really made me think.

It's not the car - it's the driver.

As for special licences for 4WD it wont work - why because people buy them for diffent reasons/uses. Mine is my daily driver I use it it to go off road; however, that might only be once every two months or so (I wish it was more often).

Others buy them to tow heavy trailers such as horse floats or boats etc and they may never go off road. Some buy them to go fishing in so that they can carry all of their fishing equipment and they may go off road but only on sand etc.

And yes some buy them as a status symbol and will never go off road - so a one licence to fit all wont work. Only better education/training and making it harder to get a licence - not easier.

I'll get off of my soap box now.

Karl
AnswerID: 111807

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (WA) - Friday, May 20, 2005 at 00:45

Friday, May 20, 2005 at 00:45
I went for years wanting a 4 by and not being able to afford it and once i got one I spent a small fortune on mainenance and repairs Now I couldnt imagine owning a car coz I couldnt have any fun coz that is my chosen intrest but to own one that doesnt go o´ffroad just doesnt make economic sense too me
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Reply By: rob&kev&roo - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:17

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 16:17
This as with the death of anyone in avoidable situation is a terrible waste but should we not also put some of the blame onto the parents. They now cars of all makes and modles are about should they not have had control of their child.
AnswerID: 111808

Follow Up By: Member - Smocky (NSW) - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 17:04

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 17:04
I'm gunna disagree with you a little on this one. I've got 2 small kids, 1 in year 1 and one that will start school next year. It is impossible to have them hold your hand every minute. I would have expected that inside the school grounds they were pretty safe.

I'm not gunna rewrite everything I wrote higher up, but separate the cars from the kids.

By the way, I was at Sovereign Hill a coupl of years back and we were walking around when my little son ran around a corner and right into the path of an oncoming horse and cart. The driver pulled up quick and my son looked up into the eyes of the horse. It took me 60 seconds to start breathing again. Ban those horse and carts, they're dangerous. (True story by the way. Probably makes me a bad parent according to some.)

Cheers,

Smocky.
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Follow Up By: rob&kev&roo - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 18:58

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 18:58
I realise it is impossible to keep hold of the kids 24hrs but responsability has to go too all involved in this incident including the parents. yes they should expect safety in school grounds but before this incident in this school it was commomn and well known [ from reports ] practice for vehicles to be in this area with no complaints prior to the accident.
Thank the gods your son came away unharmed from his experiance but if he was hurt who should shoulder at least some of the responsability? And no this does not make you a bad parent just human we all make mistakes. We just have to statr taking ownership of them and stop looking for someone else to blame.We see it ever day around schools parents parking illegally and then becoming abusive when it is pointed out that they are endagering other poeples children. We as a community have to start taking it on the chin learning from our mistakes and looking out for each other and only then will sensless accidents like this stop.
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Follow Up By: Member - Smocky (NSW) - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 19:01

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 19:01
Yeh fair enough.

Certainly parents need to take some responsibility for both supervising and most importantly TEACHING their kids about vehicle safety. My kids know not to walk behind cars and they know what the white lights mean at the back of a car: it's coming at them!!

But, in a school ground, the parent may not have even been there which is my point. You drop your kids off at school and then you pick them up. I reckon there's no way parents should be allowed to drive into an erae at a school where kids would walk.
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Reply By: Exploder - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 19:00

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 19:00
Flappa

I am sorry just have to ask If you do not tow, go bush, Drive where you may need a 4wd for strength reason’s (night/long distance travelling) or you occasionally need the extra space.

Why would you buy one maybe you just like the look of them which is fine it is a free country and everybody is entitled to drive what they like
AnswerID: 111829

Follow Up By: flappa - Thursday, May 19, 2005 at 09:15

Thursday, May 19, 2005 at 09:15
Just to add to it . . . I actually own TWO 4wds ;)

I DO go bush , unfortunately , current circumstances have prevented it for a while.

I DO need the room , I have 4 teenage kids.

It smore about current circumstances.

I bought the new patrol , intending to do a trip to the Cape. It didn't eventuate . . . yet.

As I intend to keep this 4wd for 10 years or so . . . tide will turn , times will change . . . and it WILL see plenty of dirt again.

Just to finish with . . . the reason I didn't buy a People Mover instead , was because both my parents and inlaws , have 4wds . . . when we visit (only once a year) , I like the ability to go for a Drive.
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Reply By: Member - Brian (Gold Coast) - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 19:30

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 19:30
Y'know.... I wasn't gonna get in on this one, 'cos it's all been said above, but I thought... what the heck..... heres my 2c

The thing about the reports... (and I haven't studied them or anything..mostly what I read above).... about this case is that the lady driving the Patrol is looking to blame the car and not her driving, or lack of concentration, or whatever... and to me THAT is the problem!
I don't care who drives what 4X4 or what Buzz Box or what Commodore or Falcon for that matter either. I will admit to being annoyed when someone comments about "bleeping four wheel drives" and they're muttering about one of the Taxies or Shopping Trolleys, lets face it, there are a great percentage of people driving 'cruisers and 'trols etc.... that DON'T take 'em off road and manage to make a nuisance of themselves ON the road! (And theres a few DO that take 'em off road and manage to make a nuisance of 'emselves on road as well!!) And the rest of us kinda suffer for it.... but it doesn't take away from the fact that everyone has a right to drive what they want for whatver reason they want! Agreed??
But.... this lady somehow managed to make a HUGE error... and it cost a child her life and that is a tragedy! And she has to live with that forever...... but at the end of the day, it wasn't the 4 wheel drive that was at fault.... she was! Her error brought this all upon her. (What was she doing IN the school grounds?)

A long time ago, back in 1992, I left the office I working from in my commodore ute company car, and cruising up Kortum Dr West Burleigh past the Tenpin Alley, a little girl of maybe 3 years of age ran out in front of me.... LUCKILY.... (Not by design, I was actually going slow whilst I lit a ciggie) I was doing only about 30 k's.... and was able to stop in time and not hit her. I have NEVER been so relieved in my life. The following week there was a letter from her mum in the newspaper thanking me, and the letter said that Mum had learnt a HUGE lesson from this.... probably nearly as big a lesson as I did... I NEVER speed around schools and deliberatle take my time through our son's school drop off area, The ads on TV about kids not paying attention is very true! The last thing on kids minds at school is road saftey.
Kids are precious gifts...... WE (adults) have to watch out for THEM!

End of soap box bit..... If I have offended anyone with the above, I don't apologise.
If someone doesn't agree with my 4X4 views, Tough! Drive whatever you want.... it's your choice... and if it has two diffs..... it's a fourby!!!! If ya get out in the bush with it... even better!

AnswerID: 111832

Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 19:48

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 19:48
Very interesting post everyone.
But I don't think that Schools should be singled out because that was where this tragic accident happened.

I was at a Caravan Park over the past long weekend in S.A. and noticed how many children there were. Now these children of all ages were walking and running and riding their bikes all over the Caravan Park. They were enjoying themselves immensely and Mom & Dad, whilst no doubt keeping a lookout of sorts, also had some time to themselves to relax and enjoy themselves.

This Caravan Park sits right on the foreshore and is very well laid out.

But, there were vehicles moving through the Park at times , sometimes reversing their Caravan or Camper Trailer or Boat into a spot. It doesn't matter one iota what sort of vehicle people were driving, they had a bloody great obstacle behind them blocking their view whilst reversing. And when driving through the Park, you always need to be on the lookout for little kiddies who are having so much fun, they sometimes just "forget". So, do we ban vehicles from Caravan Parks? Or, ban the kiddies from playing in them? Of course not.

Maybe the type of driver on holiday is more aware of their environment, or perhaps is more skilled and alert to the potential dangers of sharing the area with "pedestrians".

Perhaps when the Moms are picking up the kiddies from school, they have other things on their mind that distract them, or need to get real close because their hair is in curlers and they are still wearing their pyjamas, or they are just poor drivers without any awareness of what is going on around them. Maybe none of the above.

So IMHO it really gets down to vigilance and awareness when behind the wheel of any vehicle, AT ALL TIMES.

Bill


I'm diagonally parked in a parallel Universe!

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AnswerID: 111833

Reply By: Outbacktourer - Thursday, May 19, 2005 at 09:51

Thursday, May 19, 2005 at 09:51
To me all this static is just more politicly correct claptrap from Scruby (Subaru Outback owner) and blame deflection from all and sundry.

School zones should have flashing lights immediately to alert motorists to the lower speed limits.

Existing no stopping/standing/parking zones should be ENFORCED for LL vehicles.

The tools are ALREADY there.

Amusing to watch ACA on 9. On Tuesday they were shirtfronting people outside Schools in no standing zones in all kinds of cars. Next day (after this broke) they were back there doing the same thing but only to those in "4WDs'" which included Rav4's and Klugers etc.

The car market has responded to the demands of the public in any case. Many suburban users are getting out of Patrols and Cruisers and into Territory's and Klugers etc
AnswerID: 111902

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