EPIRB NEAR TELFER

I agree with reservations. Many modern tyro travellers are so full of their own importance and perceived abilities that when something does go wrong , they are tired, disorientated and frightened. In some cases they may also be crook.
Years ago I went on a solo desert crossing. Part of the preparation was to make sure that an aircraft search...paid for by me...would start if I hadn't contacted people by a certain time.
Remote S@R often involves all sorts of people at a moments notice. In some cases its a matter of fill up a vehicle, grab a swag and go.
Searchers can put their own lives at risk easily, a fact well worth remembering.
Things do go wrong, accidents happen. Clutches wear out, starter motors wont work, radiators break etc. If you're in a party its no drama. If a solo traveller, communications, water and food and you should be right.
Looking at the bright side, at least they had an epirb !

Hello Jeff M,
Whilst I can see your point on the un-hitching of a camper trailer, I think the original post mentioned a "Campervan"

Geoff M.

Fair enogh Geoff M. If it weren't for you fabulous name I might not be so forgiving to the pointing out of my errors! ;-)

But still, the fact remains, he should have been more prepared and using an ebirb for a flat tyre is a little on the weak side IMHO.

Agreement of the J/Geoff's here.
An EPIRB is definitely not designed for calling the local RAC Q/V/SA/WA etc.
That's the realm of HF and Sat phone in remote area's.

Geoff.

A favourite subject...

Having been invloved in aerial SAR as a volunteer pilot (and Ops Director for a volunteer SAR group) for about 4 years (not doing it now) I have to say that putting up the EPIRB for a flattie and calling out SAR aircraft is a bit over the top - at first glance (it's all right being an armchair critic in the comfort of home :)

Have a consideration as to what happens when an EPIRB goes off (the short story):

1. Satelite or passing aircraft picks up the signal
2. AMSA is notified
3. AMSA starts ringing around for a handy SAR pilot or three (might be 11:00PM at night after a hard days work)
4. 1 hour before dawn, SAR pilot is pulling the plane out of the hangar and pre-flighting. Kitted out with food, drink, overnight bag, maps, radios, GPS, homing devices and volunteer observers - also rubbing sleep out of their eyes.
5. Ground crew arrives - briefing, mapping (working out search patterns, locations and MPP "Most Probable Position"), fueling, flight planning and waiting for the "GO" from AMSA. Pilots and observers team up and pre-flight brief.
6. Get the "GO" and take off. Ask for and obtain priority (SAR "callsign" does it)
7. Enter search area, align with EP (entry point) at nominated altitude and start pattern. Observers search using a set scanning pattern.
8. Observer calls sighting, co-pilot hits MOB ("man overboard" button on GPS - sometimes called a "mark" button). Pilot circles over the top, keeping target in sight at all times
9. Alternate is beacon search - this involves some serious fancy flying to work out where the beacon most probably is
10. Target sighted - notify AMSA, maybe via a relay aircraft overhead
11. Stay overhead until relieved or fuel becomes a consideration, or AMSA orders you home

All this from crew of 4- 5 in a twin engined aircraft, all volunteers and all not getting paid to take time off work... And that might be only one plane... I was SAR co-ordinator for our group when a sailor went over the side of a vessel off Sydney some years ago - 8 or 9 planes at once all in wide parrallel formation searching from Palm Beach to Jervis Bay... Logistics for this is huge... We had two planes in that, 4 crews and ground crew and when we finished I went into the rubber room and drooled for 24 hours...

I carry an personal EPIRB whenever I go bush. What happens if a child gets bitten by a brown snake at Bendethra Caves? Or an accident has happened, with injuries and a blocked track? First thing - as part of the emergency management/1st aid etc - get someone to set up the EPIRB. Anyone know how??? (Be great if you also had an aviation VHS handheld, but you have to be licenced for that AND they are *supposed* to be only used in the cockpit... just so happens I keep my flight bag in the cruiser to when I go bush... ;) got some *great* maps in it...)

So does a flat tyre justify pulling out the EPIRB? Well a flat tyre can cost a life, and if that was an issue yes. However if it was just a flat and he was silly enough not to have a spare he should pay for the rescue. Pulling the aerial out on the EPIRB is not like calling a mate on the mobile - a whole infrastructure kicks in, horribly expensive (one kitted out SAR plane alone can be $1000 - $1500 per hour) and involving a huge number of people. If a life is saved, nobody counts the cost. But if it were for something frivolous the money wasted is humungous... I'd be realy p-ed if I gave up a days work for a nutter with a flat tyre... though the flying would be great!

The guide should be the question - "is anyone in immediate or grevious harm or danger?"; you can ask yourself too - "if I delay sending out a distress signal, will I be putting myself in further harm or danger?"

That's what this guy with the flatty may have asked - God knows he might have been diabetic without his medication... (though a *trailer* tyre???)

Consider that in most cases a 121.5/243 MHZ EPIRB will have contacted AMSA within three hours - usually whole lot less. Depends on where the satelite is and all other things being equal...; the 406 MHZ EPIRBs have a faster response time and are more accurate, but a heavier and dearer. Some also have the capacity to send GPS location and user's name and address.

One of the great little things to have in your kit is an emergency strobe light. These can be seen for kms from the air at night, and in the day can attract an observer's periphial vision. Cheap investment in my opinion...

And another pet subject: Rescued a guy and paraplegic girl out of the surf on the bar at South West Rocks. Great place to fall off a jetski... SES, VRA, Coastal Patrol all out there and little old me and the missus in the dive boat. Got the bloke and girl (getting a mite close to the rocks they were). Got them to shore and they got up (well he did - he carried the girl) hopped into the car and drove off - without saying a word...

In SAR we laugh at this - some sort of survivor syndrome. If *you* get rescued for whatever reason, get over your embarrassment and stupidity for a brief moment and say thanks - goes a real long way - it will make a volunteer's day. Even better still, donate some money - the majority of specialist SAR services are all volunteer-based and money for them to keep their specialty going is always a very real issue.

Anyone ever been rescued?

/viz

Viz, Thank you for your effort's.
Your right people like you don't get enough praise.

(No I have never been rescued) But do appreciate that a lot of Australians like you do give of themselves to help others in times of need.

Cheers

Great post Viz. Thanks for the info and for the work all the SAR people do, it is _VERY_ reassuring for those of us who go into remote areas to know that if things go badly wrong there is a backup to help us.

One point:
>Be great if you also had an aviation VHS handheld, but you
>have to be licensed for that AND they are *supposed* to be
>only used in the cockpit...

It would be even better if _all_ SAR, but especially aircraft, had UHF CBs available and listened on channel 5 (or scanned). The UHF CB is almost a standard with travellers these days and from an aircraft at a few thousand feet would probably have a range of (maybe?) 100km so even people with the little hand held sets would, almost certainly, be able to contact the pilot.

Mike Harding

Viz, turns out listening to the ABC it was a German Tourist who got bogged in their camper. I spose we can justify the costs to helping tourism?
At least it wasn't tooooo frivilous.

It must be frustrating when they just walk off without a word of thanks... Probally an ego thing combined with shock...

Jeff, lets not forget the two young blokes who died around the top end of the CSR a few years ago. They were only bogged. And the tourists on their way across from William Creek...they were "only" bogged. If I'm bogged, the shovel comes out and the tyre pressures come waaay down. Maybe lift the wheel up and put stuff under. But how many o/s tourists would know to do that ? At least they had an epirb. I've been saying for a long time that along with some other stuff, they should be mandatory in all rental 4wds.

No footloose I think you've got me all wrong here...

What I'm saying is that yeah, they were only bogged. And yeah, that could have killed them if they didn't have an EPIRB and great it all worked and happy days for everyone except the tax payer.

Does the tax payer just cop this because it's "the cost of tourism"?
Are we expecting too much of the tourists to do a training course prioir to these "adventures".

I'm not pulling the micky with these questions, they are serious, maybe we just have to let them go and do their thing and come rescue them when they get it all wrong...

I mean I don't know what this person/people did to try and get unstuck. Did they jack their car up and put branches under the wheels? Did they let their tyres down? Did they use their back and a shovel??? Who knows...

Lot's of questions and not many answers... I think the service is a great one and I think the people who carry it out are fantastic, I think that just maybe one of these days I MIGHT be the person they are resucuing. But I just don't know if all the neccessary planning is really taken into consideration by these overseas (and even some local) tourists who want to get out there and see this country... ... ... and we are all paying for it.

One of the things that one has to take into account in a country like Oz - you cannot put a price on rescue. Once you start going down that road then lives have a price, and someone has to operate the till. Remember when that French women got into trouble in the southern ocean, or that pommie guy - same. Cost of that rescue??? The GDP of a small country. A P3 and a frigate IIRC...

This is notwithstanding that some rescues get called off - because there is nothing that can reasonably done further. All reasonable avenues have been tried. And sometimes too, someone makes a wrong call and lives are lost - everyone is looking in the wrong place...

/viz

Mike H you raise an interesting point regarding radios in aircraft - and a sore one... Smaller aircraft are limited by weight in what they can carry - the have two maybe three radios and that is it. 2 VHF and 1 HF, maybe. If SAR aircraft were to carry *all* the radios required to cover all human activity in say NSW alone, the plane would fall off the end of the runway. There would be:

2 x VHF (aviation)
1 x HF (also flying doctor)
1 x Marine VHF
1 x Marine 27 Mhz (for the leasure craft)
1 x Land CB VHF
1 x Land CB UHF
1 x Police
1 x SES
? x VRA (lots of politics with rescue radio)
1 x Satphone (when all else fails)

This is not managable in a normal cockpit envronment - you need a dedicated aircraft and operator - and I thnk that AMSA have one or more to do just that...

Having said that, some of the rescue choppers have some pretty wizbang radio gear and are set up with rescue frequencies; also a lot of private aircraft do have panel mounted UHF installed. Having a handheld is a good idea - initially. Try using one of them in a noisy plane cockpit - been there done that...

I think that SAR organisations are trying to rationalise frequencies and have dedicated common SAR frequencies. I got out of all of that when it was tabled...

The "sore" point mentioned in the opening line: you've flown half way round NSW and found your guy; now try to work out if he is OK. No way to communicated except by skywriting and you have to go awful high for that! There are *no* common frequencies, except (to a point) 121.5 Mhz - and that is being phased out from EPIRBs in 2009

Change of subject, sort of - here's a little quiz:

You're lost in the bush and want to attract attention from the air - what colour clothing would you wear? I.e. what colour is most conspicuous from the air???

You'd be surprised - and I might be too if someone gets it right! ;)

/viz

viz, you are right about ground/air comms. I was involved with such matters some time ago. Even naval search aircraft couldn't talk to ships that they were searching for at that time. I got out of that arena a long time ago..too many egos and not enough common sense.
However, there are UHF CB frequencies in at least some light aircraft used by Govt agencies. So if you're on the ground its worth thinking about.
Not being airbourne person I would of thought that unusual shapes would of been of interest as well as colours. No ?
Best colour couldn't be a light colour, too many of them in natural features. Wouldn't it depend upon the time of day and the weather ?

I'll say Green, seem to remember reading somewhere once the human eye detects green better than any other colour.

But I'm quite prepared to be wrong.

Actually I'm just more than a little amazed an overseas tourist had an EPIRB with them.

Geoff.

turns out it was a female German tourist who did in fact need rescuing. She was well prepared with plenty of food & water and had notified Newman police of her intended travels. Once unable to free herself she activated the EPIRB.
All in all I'd say a good result to a story that could have happened to any one of us in our own vehicles - least of all in a hire vehicle.
I think she should be commended on the way she approached things not criticised

Blue in the desert, orange in the forest.

You wouldn't actually need a dozen different radios - all those frequencies are available in one set these days.

Otherwise if you know it's a sea rescue then take a marine radio. For a land rescue in Oz the person being rescued will very probably have a UHF CB they are so ubiquitous in vehicles these days I am astonished SAR don't use them.

Mike Harding

Mike I am aware of those radios that can do all the frequencies - however the cost is often way ahead of what volunteer organisations can afford and the install in a plane gets real complicated, within anything fixed requiring approval... However they do get used - mainly at the top end of SAR operations.

UHF radios, installed in the aircraft would only be part of the solution. Sure the 4bies and truckies would have them, but SAR organisations don't rescue 4bies and truckies all the time. In fact I would think that 4bies would be the least problem...

As to having a common frequency - when I left they were working on it, and SAR politics being what it is I am not sure what the agreement was if any was reached at all.

/viz

In regards to colours after spending heaps of time flagging lines there is no doubt best colour is fluro pink nothing else comes close.
The report in the paper said she had no way of getting the bogged vehicle out and was well prepared with food and water. Besides being a Female on her own brings in the "Chappelle" factor I have seen minesites drive graders over 60ks to help bogged chicks - wouldnt happen for you or I

Davoe. Right , that's it ! Out with the Laptop so I can pick up a swedish female backpacker ! In the event of getting stuck, she can just do a bit of nude sunbaking. I'll have no end of help within hours, word will get around. :))))))

Dont laugh! have you ever seen a female sitting in a car with the bonnet up trying to get help, That sort of thing starts fistfights in the bush from the hoards tryng to assist. And what is it with Germans? I reckon their kinda cool. Sure the odd one gets caught out but I like their style They are more likely than others to be found off the beaten track looking for something different to your average tourist spots. I came accross 2 cruiser campers at a rockhole between Balladonia and Istailite one with and old German guy and the other a young German couple - not exactly a majour Tourist route. Last year a German TV crew that does out of the way destinations for a German tv station was at the Rawlinna Muster

Oh and if you find the Swedish backpacker just make a film of your adventures and call it Alby Mangles Australian safari 2

Davoe, yes I agree. I only make fun of the Germans because I like them being here. Get them with a few drinks under their belt...but thats another story. Mate its a long time since I was called a naughty boy :))
As for females...well yes. But if they decide to get out and walk in the middle of a desert, I'd have a hard time explaining the body away. Especially to my missus.
Seems to me that our early explorers often perished because they took the wrong people along. I'm not making that mistake.

Coops did you actually read the debate? We weren'te just outwardly critisiing her.

But just to set the facts straight she in fact did NOT inform the police of here intended travel plans at all, however she was apparently well prepared in every other way other than the fact that she didn't have an HF or Satphone.

So what's the color Viz?

Thought there would be more takers...

On land, white

/viz
(that should stir up the natives...)

White eh ? Does that hold for sandune and scrub country also ?

throwing me a curved ball he is... (footy ball? ;)

I had a lesson drilled into me on an exercise one time near Bathurst NSW. We were looking for a guy "lost" in a field (football oval) near a bush. We could not find him, and after we finised the pattern he called us in ("here I am!") with very specific instructions as to his location. Still could not find him. He was wearing one of those blue quilted jackets with an orange "high visibility" lining - he turned his jacket inside out - *still* could not see him. He was standing on ground that had some red soil showing through and patches of green; we were circling overhead at 500 AGL. Finally he moved from his position and only then could we see him... If he stopped he disappeared again. The orange jacket was almost perfect camouflage and when he put the blue side out it was not much different. There is a lot of "blue" in the Oz outdoors.

From my experience (22 years of flying), the colour that stands out straight away in the Oz bush is white. It attracts your attention like no other colour. Green is out - lots of green out there, and different shades of it too. Yellow is like orange, and red not much better. Don't forget the colours of the Oz landscape - orange, reds, blues and greens. Not much white - ever seen a bunch of cockatoos in the trees? Stands out like the naughty bits on a pooch.

If you were parked in the middle of the Simpson would you wear an orange jacket??? Not me - I'd wear white.

Someone suggested shapes. Interesting rule of thumb - in nature there are no straight lines (or perfect circles), so if an observer sees a straight line say in trees, he will call the target. By all means make up arrows, H.E.L.P signs etc - but if you can do 'em in white.

There are exceptions - if you are on Stockton Beach, white may not be such a good idea. If you are on a salt pan, white is not a good idea. But usually in those cases regardless of what colour, you would stand out.

On the ocean, is obvious. Orange or yellow - this time NOT white.

When we are looking for someone in the bush, we are looking more often then not for something out of place. Years ago a Navy Skyhawk was lost somewhere up north I think in thick bush. Could not be found, untill someone saw from the air a single tree in a forest full of them that had been burnt. Strange - go over and have a look. Could not see anything until up close - and there was the plane... The bush has a tendency to cover up anything that goes through it, even violently. Often all you will see is a pattern of upturned leaves, more or less in a straight line that shows something out of place...

And another thing - fire - or more accurately, smoke. Smoke always always attracts attention from the air. The number of times I have reported in smoke and fire (bushfires) - I have lost count. If you were certain that someone was looking at you from the air, have a fire going and when you hear aircraft place some green or wet wood (damp leaves) on it. In bush fire season this may not be the best idea, but worth considering if lives are at stake.

/viz

Do you still fly Viz?

Maybe we could get a group together and go for a fly around the High Country with you as a kinda tour/information fella showing us what it's actually like up there looking down on a possible incident.

Where are you in Australia? We could run our own excersize.

Maybe co-ordinade a few examples of what's like to see say smoke/flares/mirrors/V sheet etc... from above.

Be a real interesting thing to do I reckon. And might help us save a life too one day.

I know some blokes on here would say yes. Are you interested viz?

I hope you say yes.

The Vic High Country is an interesting place to fly over - a lot of tiger country and not much "out" if the weather closes in. Have been through there a couple of times in the RR and love the place - got snowed on at Xmas time two years in a row... Amazing weather up there.

Not flying at the very moment. Based in Sydney and aviation here is going through a few problems, not the least the supply of good quality well maintained aircraft (I fly twins and am instrument rated).

When I was in the SAR unit we did some exercises with 4WD clubs etc - lots of fun all round. It would be real great to do an exercise one day, say based out of Mansfield or Mt Hotham... Something to keep in mind if/when I get back into it...

That was one thing that I forgot to talk about - I have a heliograph in my kit - a mirror with a hole in it. Have not got one? Try using a CD! Quite effective for such a simple thing...

/viz

No conclusions, just a plea to those reading this thread to follow some basic safety procedures.

i agree footloose

Not me.

I am in the process of putting a kit together.

I don't go remote BUT that's no excuse.

What keeps me on alert is the grief I'd get here on the site if I did get into troube un-prepared.

iMusty

EPIRB and flares are an absolute minimum for one to a party or group of vehicles but I agree with above that the EPIRB is for emergencies but keep it accessible too.

Flares are good but must be used with extreme caution... It is very easy to start a bushfire with a flare, you may well cook yourself before you get rescued. We set many a wooded area on fire when I was in the army, all accidental, all with flares.

Always best to be responsible for your actions Blue.

You're dead right John, we never played with flares unless there was a fire truck nearby... kinda made wonder if we were supposed to wait for a fire truck in war time???

I guess my point was to take a good look at the type and state of the vegetation around you before you start flinging the things anywhere.

Pretty sure I wouldn't be shootin' off distress flares over a desert full of triodia either boys! Might end up with a fried fourby, and a crunchy Cracka! Might be okay lobbing a skylight over a mangrove swamp but the spinifex we might just leave green eh?

The flares available in boating shops ARE NOT the same as the ones we used in the Army.
There are such things as hand held flares. These come in Red night time use & orange smoke for day time use.
There are also Para type Flares, and I agree that these can cause fire problems if used in dry conditions.

Oh, for Blue. No you dont have to wait for a fire truck when you are on a 2 way rifle range. Had a friend that engaged a vietcong 12.7 mm with a para flare. It took their mind off the situation long enough for him to clear a stoppage in his 30 / 50 cal compination.
Vince

Depends on where you are and what the situation is. If your food and water is running out and you have just spent 3 days trying to put your last tyre on, and it won't go, and you've waited for passing traffic but there's none, what sort of emergency have you got?
I'd rather recover live bodies, not wait until they're near death before setting their epirb off.

>I do not disagree with carrying an EPIRB or flares etc. but
>how do you indicate that you have a problem but not an
>emergency by signals?

http://natsar.amsa.gov.au/Manuals/Search_and_Rescue_Manual/Index.asp

Appendix E

Leave the flares for boats. If you want to make bright lights on land take a
strobe along.

Mike Harding

Paul your correct, if it is not a life threatening circumstance you are billed accordingly and can be fined.
Best to carry a sat phone, Easily hired and one can contact the authorities to ask for advice about recovery and also give exact co-ordinates or location.
Job Done. Yes and sat phones work Aus wide now. But no good in caves or the like.

wouldn't a marine flare ignite a bushfire once it landed?

It would be a bitch if the flare attracted help but you burnt to death in the subsequent bush fire before they could get to you!!!

Agree. But the statuatory authorities are responsible, and covered by legislation which the mine guys aren't. Billing the public purse for a rescue done by a private company happens...but on this occasion ...hmmm...

They may also have still been busy after their underground explosion

I suppose if you ring the emergancy number at least your only tying one person up who's behind a desk for a few minutes while the suggest a local number to call for assistance, maybe the local 4wd club or servo or perhaps even the local police. At least your not costing $1500 per hour!!!!

This is one of the possible problems with satphones. With HF radio if you contact a network base they can do all the leg work for you instead of spending a small fortune finding out "who ya gonna call" . Another benefit of the radio is that there may be others in the area that can help. What's the point of getting assistance from hundreds of km away if there's someone else nearby ? With a satphone you'll never know :))

Gday Sandman,
I have a new satphone on the way. What I will be doing is gathering a list of every possible contact for each area I go to.
I would presume every one with a satphone would do this, pointless ringing 000 for vehicle problems.
Dean

Dean, good to see you with a satphone. With a young family that is thoroughly responsible. Means I will want to tag along after you though for my safety ;-)

I was only thinking of you the other day, that I hadn't seen a post in a while. Good to see your name here

Gday John,
I bob up from time to time.
We enjoyed the MSNP so much we are heading that way on June long weekend with some friends.
A few weeks ago I had a small problem with the 4x4 system on the Paj. We were about to head into a rarely used track in a conservation park, lights were flashing all over the place, turns out a wire broke on the transfer case, because of this we turned back. This could have happened in the middle of the park and hardly a soul knew exactly where we were, a timely warning I think!
Seeya
Dean

Another bloody Fritz in a Britz ! :)))))))

they've just had big rains up there over the last week or two which would have been the major contributor

Just what I needed. Would they of affected the Kidson Track do you think ?

if I knew she was only 36 I would have gone lookin myself :)

I missed that bit ! I still rekkon she must of been as mad as a cut snake. But I'm only a sensitive old age guy. Probably a 300kg weight lifter looking for a job in a mine :))

Where would we be without life's little diversions ?