Permit Denial - Colson track

>It's a pity that a thoughtless few ruin it for everyone.

The Central Land Council you mean? Yes, good point - it seems they do.

Also seems odd to me that I need a permit to travel to so many parts of a land of which I am a citizen.

Mike Harding

I don't know much about the Colsen Track but I agree with some of what was said above - why should I need a permit to drive across a public road (which my taxes fund) - ie the Great Central Road in WA. I drove it a few years ago and there was no way in hell I was going to apply and pay to drive across it (I wasn't sight seeing just getting from Townsville - Perth the quickest way).

If it is a private road to a mine/pastoral lease/indiginous community then fair enough - BUT NOT A PUBLIC ROAD. It would be like all the people in my street banding together and saying that if you want to drive down this street then you need a permit and have to pay the sum of one carton (and I don't care if you just want to get to the other end) But you must also apply for a permit 3 months in advance because I'm so busy that it'll take me a while to get around to it. And then after 3 months I'll say no because last week some dude did a burnout in my street and I'm going to put you in the same catagorie as him. (Doesn't matter that the people in my street don't own or have to pay anything for it)

Its an absolute f*%$ing joke. Sorry just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers,
Hughesy

1 Why is Finke the way it is
2 Would you trade places with the locals
3 If the answer is NO then you must have empathy for their situation,

You might not have "stolen" anything, but benifiting and making excuses for those who did is not our Right.

We do have a fair number of pessimists out there :-)))

In the time I've been 4wding in SA, I've seen more tracks open than close.

Permits are given at zero cost to travel the common roads in the Great Victoria Desert. The permits are good, as they keep the riff-raff out of the desert.

There are now a vast array of 4wd tracks opened up to 4wd tourists in the Flinders Ranges. Most carry a fee charged by the pastoralist, which is only fair, as they need to make a living, they fix the tracks and pay the insurance.

We have a whole heap of PARs (public access routes) now. So our state govt is now paying for the upkeep and the insurance for these popular tracks on pastoral land.

The desert parks pass is a bargain at $90. I get to go to as many parks as I like for 12 months. These include Innamincka, Coongie Lakes and Dalhousie, and I get free Westprint maps and an information folder.

The Hay River track in the Simpson (NT) has now been accessible since 2003 - its a much more interesting drive than the Colson track will ever be.

The WA desert track permits are now coordinated through a website. Two years ago when I last used them, they were free and I got mine mailed to me within a week. There are still vast areas to camp and 4wd and enjoy that do not require permits.

Sure there are other parts of the country we would like to access, and hopefully we will in the future. But whinging will never achieve it.

Cheers
Phil

Drove the Colson a few years ago. Excellent trip, mostly because of the isolation.

While I have the utmost respect for aboriginal culture and heritage, I believe the exclusionist policy conducted by the Land Councils has been a disaster. By keeping travellers completely out of aboriginal lands, enclaves of domestic violence, substance abuse and hopelessness are flourishing. There is no hope for some of these isolated communities as there is no prospect of employment or meaningful engagement with the rest of the world.

Vast tracts of Central Australia are designated as Aboriginal Land. There is no comparison with the relatively small blocks of private or lease hold land that you can drive past. It would be easier for an Australian to visit North Korea than the Pitjanjatjarra Lands. That's a crazy situation.

Those who want to wall off a separate nation within Australia are at best misguided do-gooders. In reality, they are mostly white lawyers and similar such scum who have taken it upon themselves to exert their personal preferences over the rest of us.

Equinox

I wouldn't bother with asking for permits. Just go. There is nobody out there anyway.

What the CLC is purporting is crap. I was going to come down the Colson last month as a short cut to the Rig Road but then went another way as I have been down the Colson before. It is an easy run along the dune corridor.

No tradional owners live in the area. Two of them live in Finke.The others, I think, live in Kulgera and in Alice.The CLC and its beauraucratic power hungry servants answer for the traditional owners

Most claims to do with the Simspon Desert are crap. There was never enough water in that desert to maintain a sustainable living. Aboriginal people skirted around the perimeter maybe making short hunting forays into the desert.

Look guys

I'm not tring to asert my beliefs ON you, I know I wont change your opinion, But I wont sit back and let people be attacked by people who have a limited understanding about the facts.

Truck, Ive watched you, your a bully, probably a;ways have been, I read the way you treat people who have a differant opinion than you, or are looking to learn, and I think in reality you scare some away from this forum, enough on that - but you decided to get personal!!

Me - well I grew up in western NSW on a sheep wheat property, I'm not son city lawer talking sh#@. I'm use to "talk all the same argument as u when I was younger, but then I decided to get educated on the issue and the pub talk is a long way from the reallity.

The original agument is about a persons right to go where thy want on anyones land - the law is simple - we dont have that right, nomatter how many wars you fight or how much tax you pay. Just because it is or was "crown land", does not give the right for us to use it...

People who talk about "their rights" often don't actually know them. They also often exersise what they consider their rights at the expense of others and it is this that gets gates locked, gives 4x4ers and bikers a band wrap and creates laws that limit the rights of us all.

Red Neck atitudes an disrespect from poeple who wont bother to get educated on the issue will make things worse, u might not like what i say, and i dont expect u to agree. But i do ask that you realise how lucky u are, I know I do.

White male in middle class OZ with education and health, Ive had opitunities for success that i take for granted . Billion people in the world Am I Lucky -0bleepyer and so are you!

Respect All - and you'll be repected

I read and fantasise about many of the places that a number of members and other Formulites travel to. Places and place names that are allien to me, places that will in the main be forever a name on a map. I wish I had developed the 4wd bug in my early 20s and not late 40s. I like the rest of you want the opportunity to travel our great land and experience all it has to offer while I still can and if things continue as they are, I doubt if I will be given that opportunity.

I agree that permission may need to be obtained to enter some remote quarter and I see the 'traditional landowners' of that land as just that, a landowner who has the right of refusal of entry. Having said that, I see the ever increasing demand, (fuel prices permitting), for 4wding holidays and the ever increasing tourist dollar as a boon for these landowners. Tourism is something that they should embrasse and manage to their advantage. Use it as a way of providing gainfull employment for their communities and a way of educating the rest of society about their culture, etc.

Through this cooperation of ideas and education maybe we will all reap the benefits.

Cheers

Dunc.

wow ! this thread took me ages to read. but i was good for a laugh,,,i'll give you guys that much.
ok then, lets make this plain and simple shall we.
native title exists for the benifit of the aboriginal people of australia to excercise their culture in the land they have inhabited for longer than i care to think about.
however,,,,,,,for the federal government to say..."one nation-one people" on the one hand and give native tiltle on the other is really a conundrum. it promotes disharmony on many levels of our society no matter what race you are.( this thread being a classic case.)
the "land councils" that have been set up for the benifit of the aboriginal people have a huge task to perform, and like any big organisation, they stuff up now and again...............But..................
go and talk to a true full blood from any part of australia and they will tell you one very important thing, and that is.....
this land is for all people to benifit from. all people should see the great sky at night, away from the lights you city people love, all people should watch as the kangaroo leaps through the air, all people should see the sun come over this land as it rises from its sleep time. all people should know the power of this land and the hold it has on us all.
a very wise, very old full blood elder told me this as we sat side by side on top of nourlangie rock in the top end. i was 8 at the time and had been in australia only 2 years.
thats my 10 cents.

rick.

Guys, most of the current countries in the world have been conquered at some time in their history. Some of the great civilizations of Europe have been conquered many times. Most of them got over it hundreds of years ago.

With 21st century judgment, we may well say it was unfair (in Australia and many other places). But unfortunately none of it can be changed. We can hardly all go back to where our ancestors came from. Some of us don't even know where that is!!!!!

Now to the point of the thread. I have no objection with Aborigines being granted rights of use or even title to some of our land(and I mean our in the broadest possible sense -whether an 'Australian' for 60,000 years or 6 years). But given the nature of the grant (note grant, not purchase, or conquer); there should be at least a right of passage for Australian citizens and visitors. Sure have a permit system so they know who is there. Even charge a small fee to help maintain the place. But don't deny me access to somewhere that for 190 of the past 200 years my predecessors could go.

No need for anyone to get heated on this topic. Just stating an opinion does not make one a racist. Like others, I grew up in a country town with a large aboriginal population. That doesn't make my opinion any more or less valid than anyone else's.

i must say this topic has really bought out the worst in people on both sides of the fence. it always amuses me that people will justify their point of view with an argument that could just as easily be used against them. whether they are for or against.
just a few corrections to some supposed facts. the ingenious people of australia never just aimlessly wandered this land and never owned or improved anything. at the time of colonisation by the whitefellas 230 different languages and "nations" existed. if you trespassed, blackfella or whitefella, war broke out. everyone was welcome but permission had to be obtained and respect shown for the land owners whose land you were on. there were many trade routes throughout australia.for instance ochre from the far north was traded in victoria. improvements like fish traps where used and the burning of land the do patchwork farming and food gathering was done throughout australia. in southern and coastal australia permanent settlements existed and a kind of farming was carried out as people moved between their settlement to allow the plants to revegetate. when tribes got together for festivals and corroberees thousands would attend.
in terms of owning the land, yes terrus nullus was declared by the british. but melbourne was founded when the first settlers made a treaty with the locals to buy their land. so in other words the whitefellas figured we had better buy the land from those that were here first. unfortunately most of australia wasn't settled this way.
as for all the native title stuff about giving something to blackfellas for nothing this isnt exactly correct. the mabo case was won by the murray islanders because they proved that they had been on the land continuously since whitefellas arrived and also that they had in place a system of land ownership and tribal/clan title that allowed individuals and family groups to lay claim to specific areas of the island. in other words they had a system of blackfella land ownership that was similiar to whitefella ownership with its private property titles, pastoral titles, mining titles etc.
so as i see it. when whitefellas arrived and began conquering, settling, civilising, colonising, stealing, whatever phrase you want to use based on your opinion. they were using the current laws to their advantage even if it rubbed people up the wrong way.in other words the blackfellas.
now today, we have a law that says oops we got it wrong. the blackfellas did actually own the land and we didnt tie up all the loose ends properly and now they can get back some of the land that was appropriated in an improper manner. so what we have happening today is blackfellas using today's whitefella law to take back, settle, recolonise, steal, whatever phrase you want to use based on your opinion. land that they can prove they have been on since whitefellas turned up, land they still use in the traditional way and land that no one else privately owns. and even if it isnt privately owned they still arent automatically entitled to it. they still have to prove they have continually lived on it and practice some of the old ways. this is why they have failed on many occasions with land claims. eg the yota yota claiming parts of the murray country around barmah.
so i guess what goes around comes around. if we whitefellas can do it so can the blackfellas. its kind of funny reading whitefella people complaining about its our land and they are taking it without any justification, without working for it, for free, without our consent. i reckon the blackfellas would have been saying the same thing in the 1800's.
now as for the original part of this post- access to land- i think equinox is spot on. it is really unfair and frustrating that their are areas on this great big land we love and call australia we cannot access. whether that is because its a wilderness area, aboriginal land, pastoral land, private land, mining lease, military land, etc etc. it is especially unfair and bogus when one was once able to access that land but now cannot. i had this great hunting spot i used to go to. then the owners changed and i wasnt allowed on again. damn new owners. black of white. the area around licola has been declared a wilderness. damn greenies. i dont need to go on. i could be here all night.
the point is someone always has authority to decide, who, when, how and if we can access parts of australia. its the law. that damn law again. sometimes good, sometimes bad. we for the most part obey it whether we like it or not. going around blaming the blackfellas is wrong when whitefellas are doing the same thing. you try getting onto some of the pastoral properties without permission and you are likely to get shot. i have seen it happen.
as for public and private road. if its public then buggered if i should pay a permit to be on that road. its called right of way. the law backs us up. but if the road is private then unfortunately the law backs the owner up.we pay.
so anyway, if anyone is having trouble accessing roads just come and visit me in bairnsdale. the road outside my place is wide and free. i will wave hello to you as you go past. feel free to do a u turn and try again.

I can get a permit (visa) to visit almost any country in the world. I am able to travel around freely even work in some. I have to follow their customs, obey their laws, and leave when my visa expires. The countries that make it difficult for foreigners to visit usually have something to hide, and stand out as being hard places for the locals to live in.

I draw the analogy with the extensive aboriginal lands in Central Australia (have a look at the map to confirm that this area is bigger than many independant nations). You can't get a visa (permit) to visit these places.

If those determining the policies were looking to the future, rather than the past, the situation would be different.

It is undeniable that grave injustices were committed against the original inhabitants of Australia. However, to contemplate a huge continent like Australia surviving uninvaded by anyone else during the last 200 years, and only aboriginal people living here as they did for thousands of years before is fanciful.

Would the French, Dutch, Indonesians, Chinese etc have done a better job than the Poms? Who knows? The real issue is to get on with doing the best we can from now on. Like the misguided welfare centered approach of the seventies and eighties, we will probably find out too late that creating an isolated aboriginal nation was a big mistake.

Centuries ago one or some of my ancesters must have fought and invaded someones land somewhere...do i need to say sorry?

this is our land, why segregate it!

Going back to the original post in this topic........

Access has been denied because of a perception that people have abused the privilege of being on this portion of land, no other reason.

Now it seems to me that is something we, as four-wheel drivers, can influence in a more immediate way. Repsect the land you are on, clean up before you leave, respect areas of significance to others, behave in a responisble manner and most likely access will continue to be granted.

If you see someone acting irresponsibly, speak to them about it, because this is the end result of it - Access denied!

One only has to look at the mess that is left after visitors to campsites all over Australia to realise there are many people out there that should be denied access to this great land of ours - and that is regardless of race, colour or creed.

While re-reading this thread a phrase we're all too familiar with kept coming to mind

Are we there yet! Are we there yet!

Of course we are'nt. While ever there is a real or perceived 'segregation' (from the black OR white point of view) within this country we cannot and will not make any forward progress. Isolating minorities in remote areas without the means to improve there lot in life is nothing less than slow genocide.

I'd expect our political leaders to at least acknowledge that their current policies/strategies are not working and have'nt worked anywhere else in the world (e.g. Canada, USA, SA, etc).

Only my opinion, like my !@#$hole, everyone's got one.

Bugger, maybe I can't qualify as a Redneck after all.

I've always found the CLC and the communities to be quite reasonable. Obviously some travellers have done the wrong thing, and stuffed it for the rest of us.
I don't like being restricted in my travels but can appreciate that sometimes such restrictions may be, from the point of the locals, necessary.
This thread has spawned many posts, some of which have merit and others which show a total lack of appreciation of what aboriginality means today.
Perhaps a common implied view is that most aboriginal people are the same. They aren't. Just like us whitefellas there are good and bad, knowledgeable and stupid indigineous people, just as there are hopeless whitefellas.
Am I familiar with the problems and points raised ? You bet. In fact I've devoted quite some years to studying them both from an academic point of view and on the ground.
So if you're so bloody smart, Footloose, whats the answer?
I honestly don't know, and would hate to be in a position of having to formulate policy in this area. But there are some things I believe.
When you take away the past with no hope of a future then the present can be pretty dismal.
White policy seems to have been to inculcate a kind of hip pocket cargo cult mentality. Throwing money at these problems doesn't fix them.
Having just returned from an aboriginal community, the little I saw there made me very glad I was born white. (and not for the first time). Why ?
I have known the dignity of work and have been lucky enough to benefit from that.
I have health, a roof, clothing and food that I was lucky enough to be able to earn.
My life has had purpose. Nobody discriminated against me because of my colour.
I could go on ad nauseum. (some prob think I already have :))

There used to be an old saying which is appropriate in this case.
"There, but for the grace of God Go I "

I think rhetoric replaced reason on both sides of this discussion.

It is fair to say that the aboriginal people of Australia used the same laws that protect each and everyone of us to their own advantage - and why shouldn't they, after all one law for all seems fair to me.

Contributors to this thread seeking further edification may by reading in order "The fabrication of Aboriginal History" by Keith Windshuttle, the academic response in the form of "Whitewash" ed. by Robert Manne and then "Washout" by John Dawson.

We have all payed permits to drive on our own land (called registration). I don't object to pay for a permit to pay on their land.

If you Call Darkie Bill at Pmere Nyente. He works with the Central Land Council for local permits. Tell him that Sean Uneberra at National Gold Exploration Pty Ltd sent you. He and I work together a bit. He has assisted many friends of mine to organise permits when they have been made "unavailable". Worth a try.

See You NT

Photoman
I'm with you. I also think there are plenty of precedents where access to parts of Australia are denied or require a permit that has nothing to do with Aborigines and their land. Take for example the access road for the Indian Pacific railway. It's an Aussie icon and why shouldn't we be allowed to drive next to it? Take also the pilbara access road between from Karratha and follows the railway line. I had to watch a video and get a permit for that one.
I think this debate has perhaps shown where some people on this forum are really at. If so much disrespect is shown to a disadvantaged minority, how much respect is really being shown to the environment. Are tracks rightly being closed and access being denied because 4x4 owners cannot show respect. I believe equinox was referring to these people - not the CLC. Some narrow minded idiots have just used the post as an excuse to vomit their racist views in cyberland.
Dougie