Permit Denial - Colson track

Submitted: Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 12:09
ThreadID: 24903 Views:5749 Replies:20 FollowUps:91
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Hey all,

The Central Land Council has just denied me permission to traverse the section of the Colson Track that lies within Pmere Nyente Aboriginal Land.

I quote, "This refusal has come about as a consequence of the concerns of the Traditional Aboriginal Owners about safety issues and concerns for the country arising from disturbance to areas of great significance by travelers who have ignored restrictions and conditions placed upon permission to enter the land."

I had planned to drive a bit of a figure eight of the Simpson Desert but now will just cross it along the French Line.

It's a pity that a thoughtless few ruin it for everyone.

Cheers

Eq.

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Reply By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 12:53

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 12:53
>It's a pity that a thoughtless few ruin it for everyone.

The Central Land Council you mean? Yes, good point - it seems they do.

Also seems odd to me that I need a permit to travel to so many parts of a land of which I am a citizen.

Mike Harding
AnswerID: 121297

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 12:56

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 12:56
You will get fried for that..

but I 10000% agree with you TOTALLY...
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Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Australia) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 13:04

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 13:04
Is this public land or what? I recently got a permit from the Gov, it says Australian Citizen...should be good enough maybe
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Follow Up By: G-wizz - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 13:08

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 13:08
What's your address then Mike? Surely you won't mind if I come and do a bit of off-roading there. After all I'm an Australian citizen and your land is part of Australia.
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 13:10

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 13:10
Mike isnt charging people to drive on his land or taking a GOD stance to say who can and cant ...
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 13:17

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 13:17
The CLC have the right to refuse access, same as most of the pastoralists, mining companies, etc etc. Can't see a difference here.
The aboriginal land is not public land. But the land immediately south of the aboriginal land is Crown Land, which is what you travel on when doing the Madigan Line. Its been subject to a Land Claim for some time.

Our problem here is that the Colson Track would be a great way to access the Simpson desert, and we are being denied that opportunity.

Access thru the aboriginal Land down the Hay River is now usually granted, with the assistance of Jol Fleming and Lindsay Bookie, who have made great strides towards getting this area opened up to 4wd tourists.

Cheers
phil
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Follow Up By: gramps - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 14:09

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 14:09
Right or wrong it's still their land. If visitors (paying or non-paying) have stuffed it up for the rest of us unfortunately we're the losers. The only thing you can do is continue to apply for permission and hope they change their mind at some stage in the future.
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 14:37

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 14:37
This concerns me as it's just going on and on and on. I'm not all up there with this native titles stuff but didn't the aboriginies own all of australia before the colinisation? If so how long is it before I need a permit to leave my driveway? I here they just won the largest native title claim ever in WA, so is that more of my country I can't see now? How do I put a calim in? I want some for my family too....
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 14:55

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 14:55
Yup, I'm with Jeff here too....

When will it stop? I thought we were all 1 country.. 1 set of rules for me and you and them and that?? Oh thats right - thats not fair.

Also good luck with the permit to get out of the driveway
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 14:59

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 14:59
Thanks for that Truckster, I'm just waiting now on the public servants to make a decision. They've told me that I need adiquate comm's and that I can only leave my house in the dry season. The fee has just gone up to $20 for a trip to the shops and $100 for a picnic if approved. Applications must be made at least 3 months prior to any planned crossing of my driveway.
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 15:03

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 15:03
ONLY $20 TO THE SHOPS!!
Im moving to WA...

Ours is $50 per head to the shops for general goods
$100 per head for necessaties
$150 per head for emergencies
and if an Ambo is required, it has to go before a review board, which is 4-12 weeks.. As the exceesive speed of the ambo is of great concern as it may disturbe the sacred fallen gum leaf of the North Western southen upper overunder Endangered Ghost Gum - there are only 2 billion of these in Victoria left in existance.
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Follow Up By: GOB & denny vic member - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 15:14

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 15:14
jeez truckie you must be bored sh %^$ less to come up with all that

steve
how are you anyway
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 15:15

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 15:15
Bored..
u still need help with Thumbs+?
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Follow Up By: BenSpoon - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:46

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:46
I reckon its funny.
We are "one people, one australia", yet we will protest when tribal law does not get incorporated into our western justice system because this is racial intollerance.
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 17:03

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 17:03
Benspoon, from my understanding Tribal Law has got absolutally nothing to do with native title. (aquiring land from anyone for nothing).

If some community decides that spearing some guy in the thigh is the way that he should be punished in their community, go for it, just don't stop me driving through my own country. I don't think I'm being over zelous here, I think it's a quite reasonable request really. If you need money to keep national parks open, sure, let me go in with my national parks pass, make it a standard not specific to the land.
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Follow Up By: BenSpoon - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 19:55

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 19:55
I agree mate.
Its just another place I see unjustified acceptance and legal support for (what I percieve to be a) fear of being morally wrong. I cannot believe some of the crap and procedural tangles native title has created both to businesses and the public.
Road reserves exist on crown land, why cant they exist on native title land?
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Reply By: bundyman - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 15:37

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 15:37
I don't know much about the Colsen Track but I agree with some of what was said above - why should I need a permit to drive across a public road (which my taxes fund) - ie the Great Central Road in WA. I drove it a few years ago and there was no way in hell I was going to apply and pay to drive across it (I wasn't sight seeing just getting from Townsville - Perth the quickest way).

If it is a private road to a mine/pastoral lease/indiginous community then fair enough - BUT NOT A PUBLIC ROAD. It would be like all the people in my street banding together and saying that if you want to drive down this street then you need a permit and have to pay the sum of one carton (and I don't care if you just want to get to the other end) But you must also apply for a permit 3 months in advance because I'm so busy that it'll take me a while to get around to it. And then after 3 months I'll say no because last week some dude did a burnout in my street and I'm going to put you in the same catagorie as him. (Doesn't matter that the people in my street don't own or have to pay anything for it)

Its an absolute f*%$ing joke. Sorry just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers,
Hughesy

AnswerID: 121313

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 15:48

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 15:48
GOLD!!!!

!!!!!!!!! LOVE IT !!!!!!!!!

Now, how do I block my street off... Hmm and its a dead end too!!!!! IM GONNA GET RICH!
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Follow Up By: Photoman - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:09

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:09
Hi All

I don't here anyone complaining about desert parks Pass or NSW Nat Parks Pass - come on folks get educated on the issues before you attack people, If my family had all its assets siezed in the time of my grandparents, I'm sure me and mine would have some social issues to. When you strip people of the land, assets and culture its very hard for the following generations to recover BLACK or WHITE!!

These people have been granted back land us whites stole - and now they are doing as we all ahve done, trieng to use and asset to make an income. Too many people are conserned about "their rights" as it is, think who's "rights" you infringe in before aserting yours.

When you next drive through Finke ask your self 3 questions

1. Why?
2 would I trade places?
3 Am I a racist?
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:12

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:12
Can you point to me personally 1 person on this forum that stole anything?

stole this lost that what a load of crap.

1) why what
2) with who
3) no.
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:18

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:18
Most cultures that lost land to invaders over 200 years ago at least put up a fight...
It's done, it's over. We are in 2005, if you want land now, you work like a ... and buy it like everyone else IMHO.
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Follow Up By: Photoman - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:33

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:33
Jeff do a search on

"Terra nullius"

The locals did put up a fight once they worked out what the Brits were up to!

Were are all on this site because we love this land and love seeing with our own eyes not on Nat Geo Channel, but if you take the time to learn the history of our colonial begiuning you'll have a much wider understanding of what you are looking at when you travel.

Its easy to say it was 200 years ago and the past is the past, but much of what happened in the outback is still in living memory, and has created the situation we now have.

Respect peoples rights as you want yours respected, and try to understand that our ansestors created the situation WE now have deal with. To say "it wasn't me" wont solve anything,
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:40

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:40
In your words
"They put up a fight"
They lost - HEY GUESS WHAT - THATS BAD LUCK.... Get over it.

If someone kicks the shiat out of you on the footpath, do you give them a second chance a week later to finish it??
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Follow Up By: Photoman - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:52

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:52
Truck

Do some reading, start with

"The Concise History Of Australia"

Then we'll talk
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:57

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:57
I grew up in Kurnell.. Ever heard of it? Its where Cook landed... I know a fair bit of what went on from history of the place, and the 1 aboriginal family that liveD there.

read "I dont have anything to apologise for, neither does anyone living right now in Australia - or do I cause a minority of 10 people seem to think we do"

That is YOUR opinion that "WE" have something to apologise for...

I know thousands of us don't. We are not wrong cause we dont agree with you. Grow up. Thats kindergardenbleepyour dribbling on with

Then we can talk.
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Reply By: Photoman - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:20

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:20
1 Why is Finke the way it is
2 Would you trade places with the locals
3 If the answer is NO then you must have empathy for their situation,

You might not have "stolen" anything, but benifiting and making excuses for those who did is not our Right.

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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:34

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:34
I gew up as the only white kid in a black class in the pilbra so don't preach to me about what it's like for them. I have no empathy for anyone who thinks that it's somebody elses fault for what they havn't done with their life.

My grandfather went to war so he could live in a free country and travel accross it without the need for papers and permits.
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:37

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:37
1) finke is the way it is cause the people there want it to be... No, not The white fellas problem..
2) I cant say here what I would do to the locals
3) So your calling me a racist cause I dont believe their crap that your trying to ram down my throat??
Pull your head out of yor arse moron, and go preach yourbleepat www.whogivesableep.com or www.whiteaustralianisnotallowedtohaveapastoranyhistory.org.au

Believe it or not, people are allowed to think for themselves, and dont need to to tell them what to believe or think.
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Follow Up By: gramps - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:39

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:39
Photoman,

Finke is paradise compared to Maryvale. Definitely something out of Mad Max. Not entirely their fault but yes, as a race, they should accept some responsibility for their current problems.

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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:41

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:41
LOL, you will burn in hell gramps for thinking for yourself.

its all our fault, 0% is their fault...

dont you realise that? I read it on the net it must be true...
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Follow Up By: Photoman - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:44

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:44
Come On Truck!!

Now your really showing you true colours, Opinions like your create these problems,

I wouldn't let someone on my land that didn't respect me - would you?

Black - White - Red Neck

Obvious which one you are!!
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:59

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:59
Opinions like mine?
Why is that , because I disagree with YOUR opinion?

hey they lost 200 years ago.. The battle was 200 yrs ago.. Nothing to do with now. <<-- THATS MY OPINION IM ALLOWED TO HAVE IT - EVEN IF YOU DONT THINK SO.

what am I saying, DILLIGAF what he thinks.

THE END.
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Follow Up By: gramps - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 17:02

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 17:02
Damn, I wanted to be the Red Neck and now Truckster does'nt want to play!

Guys,

We agree to disagree. Can't do anything about it at the moment so we work around it.

p.s. You were definitely born with a wooden spoon Truckster.
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 17:13

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 17:13
OMG You guys are cracking me up LMAO!

"DILLIGAF"

I think ol' Kev would agree with your side Truckster! LOL
He grew up in Kal so he'd know a bit too, he like myself has some good mates that are aborigional. You've got to realise this is not a racial argument at all, some people are just twisting it to sound that way. I have no problem with aborigional people who are making a life for themselves, but there is no excuse for ANYONE, be it black, white, purple, pink, yellow, orange, to do what some of the people in question do. That aside, I believe it was getting a little off topic as we were discussing Native Title and the ability for us and our families to travel our wonderful country, not who knows the most about australian history or saying "oh your so much more racist than me".
Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, I think I made my points pretty clear.

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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:35

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:35
Photoman,

Come on mate, take a Valium and calm down.

And by the way, the "locals" as you refer to them, were NOT originally indigenous to the Country either. Check your history on that.
Bill


I'm diagonally parked in a parallel Universe!

Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:28

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 16:28
We do have a fair number of pessimists out there :-)))

In the time I've been 4wding in SA, I've seen more tracks open than close.

Permits are given at zero cost to travel the common roads in the Great Victoria Desert. The permits are good, as they keep the riff-raff out of the desert.

There are now a vast array of 4wd tracks opened up to 4wd tourists in the Flinders Ranges. Most carry a fee charged by the pastoralist, which is only fair, as they need to make a living, they fix the tracks and pay the insurance.

We have a whole heap of PARs (public access routes) now. So our state govt is now paying for the upkeep and the insurance for these popular tracks on pastoral land.

The desert parks pass is a bargain at $90. I get to go to as many parks as I like for 12 months. These include Innamincka, Coongie Lakes and Dalhousie, and I get free Westprint maps and an information folder.

The Hay River track in the Simpson (NT) has now been accessible since 2003 - its a much more interesting drive than the Colson track will ever be.

The WA desert track permits are now coordinated through a website. Two years ago when I last used them, they were free and I got mine mailed to me within a week. There are still vast areas to camp and 4wd and enjoy that do not require permits.

Sure there are other parts of the country we would like to access, and hopefully we will in the future. But whinging will never achieve it.

Cheers
Phil
AnswerID: 121325

Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 21:57

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 21:57
Hi Phil
have to agree
Just got my permits for this years trip
Department of Indigenous Affairs over Internet permit number 5 Min's later e-mail copy one day no cost
Nggaanyatjarra faxed 08/07/2005 returned by fax 13/07/2005 no cost
Central land council faxed 08/07/2005 return fax 15/07/2005 no cost
We apply every year for the last five we have had no problems
We may apply for two or three to travel the same land for different dates and ways still have no problems.
can't see what all the fuse is all about

Regards

Richard
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 22:07

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 22:07
Hi Richard,

As I said, I like permits because it keeps the riffraff out.

I spent a week in the Great Vic Desert last year and hardly saw anyone. Thats because you need to fax away for 4 permits, and it turns people off.

Great system I reckon.

Cheers
phil
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Follow Up By: equinox-Kings Canyon - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 22:07

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 22:07
Phil,

I'm not whinging - I have accepted the decision and will endeavour to alter my travels plans to suit the these existing restrictions on access to the desired area.

As for desert parks pass it is pricey; it would be nice if it lasted longer than 1 year as it provides a lot of access and it could be cheaper if it came without maps (which I have enough of already) - But I will pay the fee anyway as it is another item on the checklist.

Tell me more about this Hay River track?
Where does it start on the Plenty Highway? Is it near Arthur Creek?

Eq

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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 16:35

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 16:35
Hi Eq,

I wasn't referring to you. Your original question was very good and well phrased, and seemed like you were level headed about all this.

The Hay River stuff is all on Jol Flemings website

Jol coordinates all the permits and bookings with the CLC and with Lindsay Bookie at Batton Hill camp. You travel the Plenty Highway to Jervois, travel about 100k SE to the Hay River, then follow the Hay river down to Poeppels Corner, then go where you like from there

You need to be well prepared and set up, as it can be pretty isolated out there, and towards the southern end of the Hay River, the track is easily lost in the sand, so some GPS skills may be necessary.

If you need more info, let me know.

Cheers
phil
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Reply By: Bob of KAOS - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 17:28

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 17:28
Drove the Colson a few years ago. Excellent trip, mostly because of the isolation.

While I have the utmost respect for aboriginal culture and heritage, I believe the exclusionist policy conducted by the Land Councils has been a disaster. By keeping travellers completely out of aboriginal lands, enclaves of domestic violence, substance abuse and hopelessness are flourishing. There is no hope for some of these isolated communities as there is no prospect of employment or meaningful engagement with the rest of the world.

Vast tracts of Central Australia are designated as Aboriginal Land. There is no comparison with the relatively small blocks of private or lease hold land that you can drive past. It would be easier for an Australian to visit North Korea than the Pitjanjatjarra Lands. That's a crazy situation.

Those who want to wall off a separate nation within Australia are at best misguided do-gooders. In reality, they are mostly white lawyers and similar such scum who have taken it upon themselves to exert their personal preferences over the rest of us.
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Follow Up By: gramps - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 17:33

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 17:33
Bob,

Agree entirely. Well said.
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:01

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:01
Succinctly and accurately put Bob.

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:44

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:44
Well done mate, and you managed to keep it on topic (unlike the rest of us!!) ;-)
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Reply By: Willem - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:11

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:11
Equinox

I wouldn't bother with asking for permits. Just go. There is nobody out there anyway.

What the CLC is purporting is crap. I was going to come down the Colson last month as a short cut to the Rig Road but then went another way as I have been down the Colson before. It is an easy run along the dune corridor.

No tradional owners live in the area. Two of them live in Finke.The others, I think, live in Kulgera and in Alice.The CLC and its beauraucratic power hungry servants answer for the traditional owners

Most claims to do with the Simspon Desert are crap. There was never enough water in that desert to maintain a sustainable living. Aboriginal people skirted around the perimeter maybe making short hunting forays into the desert.
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Follow Up By: Exploder - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:44

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:44
Yeah that’s right just DO IT, if you happen to get caught act like it is all a big mistake (Oh you need a permit to drive this track my bad, Bloody GPS has been playing up, When did this become aboriginal land, It is Ok I am Black Etc.)
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 21:51

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 21:51
Willem,

You keep purporting that Aborigines didn't live in the Simpson Desert.

have a look at Madigan's 1939 book - map on back page - got native wells scattered thru there.

Aborigines were opportunistic nomads - they moved into the desert when seasons were good and retreated when they weren't.

Sorry to say it, but your attitudes are identical to those of my parents.

Cheers
Phil
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Follow Up By: equinox-Kings Canyon - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 22:27

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 22:27
Hi Willem,

Well done on your recent trip.

I was thinking of just going along the track anyway but as I'm really just doing a quick recon of the area I'll just go on some other track somewhere else.

I think there was active aboriginals in the area before as Phil says. I also think there may be something in the Native Title Act that says to claim native title you must have been continuously in the area since white settlement.

Do you think you'll ever go to Skirmish Hill or Champ de Mars? I bet permits would be difficult to get for there.

Cheers

Eq

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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 23:04

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 23:04
I agree with Willem.
and if anyone says anything drop ya duds and hang ya date out the window while the wife drives. give em the finger too and tell em to claim the moon.
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Follow Up By: Willem - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 10:36

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 10:36
Phil

I agree with you.

I have a narrow view of the History of Aboriginal Australia, the Land Rights Act and Native Title Act mainly because of political interference and the perception(or reality) that we, within an individual tribal or ethnic group, must dictate to others where who may travel. I tend to want to push the envelope in challenging the historians on who lived where.

I can go on 'ad infinitum' but I feel it is not valid to voice this opinion here on this forum. If you wish to pursue this matter and get a drift of my thoughts then you are welcome to email me through my website below.

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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 14:36

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 14:36
Willem, While the pot is stirring just curios how you justify your approach to entering aboriginal land when you have stated you think the rock shouldnrt be climbed (see some people do read your posts)
My view? all land other than that privately owned (this does NOT include pastoral leases) should be accessable with permission or permits max and as for the rock, well if youfeel up to itgo for it it was ere long before anyone and will remain long after everyone, for anyone to lay claim to ownership is an insult it is a world icon not just for a select few
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 14:42

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 14:42
Archive post 11958
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Follow Up By: Karsten from Big Red Cafe - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 16:04

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 16:04
Gidday Willem

I was actually was up to 4.30am writing a reply, which disappeared into the ether when I hit “return”……Oh, well. Speaking of wells, or mickerys as the soaks are known, I’m very interested in the movements of Aboriginals from the time they “arrived”. The Simpson area has undergone much change since they arrived. I’m not familiar with the tribe that controls the Colson Track, but nobody lives there that I’m aware of. It sounds like more of that tribe survived than the tribe that lived around Birdsville on colonization. Which is 0 as far as I know, the last one dying out in the 70’s. As far as I know (Dr.Jones or anybody else that has useful info. can correct me if I’m wrong) they had shared the mickerys that Madigan refers to with a tribe from the western side of the desert which has something like two members living in Alice.

I couldn’t agree more about taking the Colson Track. If you respect the Land and respect their culture, why not. I don’t fully buy into the ownership thing simply because ownership in our sense was alien to their culture (as far as I know). They were very good at sharing (something we (Westerners) seem to have a real problem with. Now that we have influenced them with our view of capitalism, it probably no surprise some want to emulate our ways. That said, on a scale of 0 to 10, with 0 being harmless and 10 being certainly fatal, I’d rate the Colson a 0.1 – and that’s only because there’s a chance you’ll be breath tested on the QAA Line !!!!! It’s been crazy since you guys all left. All the town folk here are in varying states of shock. I’d be very interested what forumites think of the advent of breath testing, vehicle inspections etc. in the Simpson. I personally moved to Birdsville 6 years ago for many reasons. Started coming out to the Simpson with Wolfgang in 1976, then after he moved up here in ’94, got drawn back. The desert is the attraction for me, not least because there’s no civilization out there. Wilderness. I find the whole idea quite bizarre to say the least.

Now watch out if you have a cracked windscreen (has anyone ever cracked a windscreen within 500km of Birdsville ?). Imagine having to replace a windscreen once a month ? It’s so bizarre I wonder if the people pulling the strings reason that if everyone then blames the roads they’ll have a good argument for getting bitumen into Birdsville ?? Is there anybody who wants bitumen into Birdsville other than the Pastoralists ? We kept a log of responses to this question for 5 years and over 3000 entries. 85% said no way. 12% said yes and 3% flew.

A family were out @ Big Red yesterday. Their 14 year old daughter wanted to drive. They found a clay pan and away she went……until a police car came over the dune and promptly gave the girl her first breath test !!!! The copper said something to the effect of “If you’re going to do that find somewhere more remote” !!!!!!!! The Sahara perhaps ? The Gobi, I hear that’s expanding. So get straiffed by fighters in the Sahara, locked up for being democratic in China or harassed in the Simpson…..Mars, perhaps ? The new images being sent back by “Spirit” & “Opportunity” look just like the Simpson/Sturt’s Stony desert.

This is where the whole thing comes together. The Aboriginals have only us as role models when negotiating the new world. Small wonder they have their issues! Now I know a lot of people that fought to defend this country against fascism and anything that didn’t live up to our then view of freedom. How sad it must be to see those forces manifesting from within ! “What did my mates die for”, “What did I fight for” I have heard some say.

Kafka, Orwell…..Eat your heart out !! When a government or government agencies turn on their people, I’d say there are big problems. To be fair, we can’t expect the Aboriginal people to get it together when we are so far from the mark. Stones in glass houses and all that.

By the way, forget about visiting the Dingo Caves for a magical sunset. The Pastoralist doesn’t want people there now.

P.S. I wonder how the Aboriginals would have fared had China colonized Australia in the 15th Century when they mapped the interior river systems – the Darling, Diamantina and Cooper included……Oh, Tibet.

P.P.S. Davoe, I'd vote for you !! Maybe you could try and get it passed at the UN too. What a wonderfully beautiful world. Amen.
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Follow Up By: Willem - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 19:20

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 19:20
Hi Davoe

I did waffle on a bit didn't I? in post 11958

In that thread I said I had empathy with the aboriginal culture. I still stand by that. Climbing the rock is akin to driving up Mt Everard(another thread on this page). My opinion.

In this thread I stated that I wouldn't bother with permits again along well known tracks and I have also stated that(in not so many words) that I have a problem with historians and the portrayal of ancient Australian history.

I cannot see a conflict between the two threads.

Anyway if you want to ask me a direct question on these matters then please email me.

Hi Karsten

Yes it would seem that the "Law and Order" segment of your town is running rampant trying its best to discourage the same visitors who bring prosperity to the town. Maybe a quiet word in the right ear at Divisdional HQ would suffice. The visitors do tend to get a bit slack in their complaince with the law but from what I have seen from my perch in the CP a whole lot of unneccassary action is taking place.
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Reply By: Photoman - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:35

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:35
Look guys

I'm not tring to asert my beliefs ON you, I know I wont change your opinion, But I wont sit back and let people be attacked by people who have a limited understanding about the facts.

Truck, Ive watched you, your a bully, probably a;ways have been, I read the way you treat people who have a differant opinion than you, or are looking to learn, and I think in reality you scare some away from this forum, enough on that - but you decided to get personal!!

Me - well I grew up in western NSW on a sheep wheat property, I'm not son city lawer talking sh#@. I'm use to "talk all the same argument as u when I was younger, but then I decided to get educated on the issue and the pub talk is a long way from the reallity.

The original agument is about a persons right to go where thy want on anyones land - the law is simple - we dont have that right, nomatter how many wars you fight or how much tax you pay. Just because it is or was "crown land", does not give the right for us to use it...

People who talk about "their rights" often don't actually know them. They also often exersise what they consider their rights at the expense of others and it is this that gets gates locked, gives 4x4ers and bikers a band wrap and creates laws that limit the rights of us all.

Red Neck atitudes an disrespect from poeple who wont bother to get educated on the issue will make things worse, u might not like what i say, and i dont expect u to agree. But i do ask that you realise how lucky u are, I know I do.

White male in middle class OZ with education and health, Ive had opitunities for success that i take for granted . Billion people in the world Am I Lucky -0bleepyer and so are you!

Respect All - and you'll be repected
AnswerID: 121345

Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:41

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:41
Photoman, you keep on insutating that no one else here is educated on this issue, this is becoming insulting.

" But I wont sit back and let people be attacked by people who have a limited understanding about the facts."

You've made your point, I still disagree as will others.
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FollowupID: 376431

Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:43

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 18:43
Sorry I didn't proof read the above, I meant Insinuating, figure if I'm going to harp on about my education I better get the spelling right LMAO!
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FollowupID: 376432

Follow Up By: Photoman - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 19:11

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 19:11
Im not tring to insinuate a general lack in intelligence to anyone, if thats how it came across I'm sorry. My point is - the way the brits took control of this country is well documented as it is only very recent history in the bigger picture. If we are to atribute blame for the mess of laws and scocial problems we now have to deal with this is were it all started - The Brit declared Australia "Terra Nullius" that is " unenhabited, so there was no war, no treaty and no rights for the actual inhabitants. Later the locals were deamed Brit subjects so thay could be punished for crimes against settlers 'ie "The War" - then on 1/1/1901 (ring any bells) those right as Brit wes striped away and it was decided that the aboriginals we soon to be exstinct, so no need to put new rights in place.

Had the Brits declared war, Native Title would not exsist and we would have won and it would now be ours,

Now I know we are now so far from the original argument that it is almost a joke - and its my fault, But i sick of hearing people complain about aboriginals and the social plrobles - land rights - and welfare and never considering WHY? and the WHY is all doccumented in the History of our nation, like it or not it is our history. And like it or not with our Freedom and Rights come some responsability.

I Know ny spelling not so good - I came through school when "they" decided it wasn't so important - (I've gotta blame someone-LMAO)


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FollowupID: 376441

Follow Up By: Member - Pezza (QLD) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 19:59

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 19:59
Photoman,
Where you and patrolman Pat get it wrong is when you say it was 'their land', it was never "their" land, they just happen to aimlessly wonder around on it for a while, they didn't buy it, they didn't work for it. I wonder around the state forest near my place quite a bit, can I claim it as mine? This land was never 'taken' from them because it was never theirs to start with.

The battle was fought and won years ago, I feel for the families that had family members abused, killed or taken, the same way I feel for all other families around the world that have had similar things happen to them during world wars. We should not be held accountable for something the Poms did 150-200 years ago, that would be akin to your son or daughter being held responsible for something your father did.

They have had 200 years to assimilate to a new way of life, how long do they need? Europeans did it in a matter of years after emmigrating to australia after WW2. Aborigines haven't done it because they don't want to, their problem not ours!

I resent being locked out of so called 'aboriginal land' the same as I resent being locked out of national parks and other "nature reserves", don't get me wrong, I am not against aboriginals or any other race owning land,but like Truckster said, you want it, you can bloody well work and pay for it the same way the rest of us do.
As Jeff and Truckster have both pointed out, we are Australian citizens and we pay our government to MANAGE this land for us, not lock us out of it!

Avagoodn
Pezza

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FollowupID: 376451

Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 20:13

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 20:13
Pezza mate, you beat me to it! ;-)

I was going to say that I don't much care what my great, great, great grand daddy did over 200 years ok, all I know is I had to work for EVERYTHING I've got, NOTHING was handed to me on a silver plater and I never expect anything to be handed to me, nobody should. Because my great ancistors may have been hung for stealing some guys sheep to feed his starving family doesn't mean I now want compensation, tough tities get over it.
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Follow Up By: Member - Pezza (QLD) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 20:13

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 20:13
My appologies to Patrolman Pat, your name didn't even appear in the above posts! I missread Photoman for Patrolman Pat, ( been a long day )
sorry Pat.
I also noticed Mike, Mad dog and a couple of others mention about being Aussie citizens, sorry guys didn't mean to forget you.

Avagoodn
Pezza
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FollowupID: 376456

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 22:20

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 22:20
You Talk of the facts, well the facts are that Upon White Settlement most Aborigunes DID NOT live in the central deserts (sure some did) but the highest concentrations were (surprise surprise) where the food was plentifull and conditions mild, Yep you guessed it right where most of the Capitol cities now are and along the massivly populated eastern seaboard. If it is so important to give them back what they own how about we turn Sydney into the next Community. Giving them back land to create remote communities where employment prospects are next to zero, soaring death rates, rampant sexual abuse including kiddie rape, domestic violence as a way of life not an offence, petrol sniffing, epedemic diabetes and all this despite how much money is thrown at these communities is not exactly helping
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FollowupID: 376499

Reply By: Member - Duncan W (WA) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 20:18

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 20:18
I read and fantasise about many of the places that a number of members and other Formulites travel to. Places and place names that are allien to me, places that will in the main be forever a name on a map. I wish I had developed the 4wd bug in my early 20s and not late 40s. I like the rest of you want the opportunity to travel our great land and experience all it has to offer while I still can and if things continue as they are, I doubt if I will be given that opportunity.

I agree that permission may need to be obtained to enter some remote quarter and I see the 'traditional landowners' of that land as just that, a landowner who has the right of refusal of entry. Having said that, I see the ever increasing demand, (fuel prices permitting), for 4wding holidays and the ever increasing tourist dollar as a boon for these landowners. Tourism is something that they should embrasse and manage to their advantage. Use it as a way of providing gainfull employment for their communities and a way of educating the rest of society about their culture, etc.

Through this cooperation of ideas and education maybe we will all reap the benefits.

Cheers

Dunc.
Dunc
Make sure you give back more than you take

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  Send Message

AnswerID: 121364

Follow Up By: Crackles - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 23:00

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 23:00
"Tourism is something that they should embrasse and manage to their advantage."
& there lies the Problem. Their culture often isn't compatable with the needs of the tourist. Someone dies in the community & they close the place down for 2 weeks then wonder why they don't come back.
Cheers Craig..........
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Follow Up By: GO_OFFROAD - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 08:49

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 08:49
Your right there, and the point some seem to be missing, is, if people want to comer to your place and stay, well, normally you paid for your block of dirt, where as they seem to be "given" what they lost 200+ years ago.

Just check what the Aus indigious population is in Aus, and then what the govt spends on them per year for a good clear picture on who is really disadvantaged.......
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 14:42

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 14:42
Darren,
Thats a myth.
Per capita, the caucasian population is receiving more $$ welfare than the aboriginal population.

Cheers
phil
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Follow Up By: at4x4 - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 14:53

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 14:53
Welfare is only one part of the total govt spend Phil, "per capita"
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Reply By: rickwagupatrol - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 20:34

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 20:34
wow ! this thread took me ages to read. but i was good for a laugh,,,i'll give you guys that much.
ok then, lets make this plain and simple shall we.
native title exists for the benifit of the aboriginal people of australia to excercise their culture in the land they have inhabited for longer than i care to think about.
however,,,,,,,for the federal government to say..."one nation-one people" on the one hand and give native tiltle on the other is really a conundrum. it promotes disharmony on many levels of our society no matter what race you are.( this thread being a classic case.)
the "land councils" that have been set up for the benifit of the aboriginal people have a huge task to perform, and like any big organisation, they stuff up now and again...............But..................
go and talk to a true full blood from any part of australia and they will tell you one very important thing, and that is.....
this land is for all people to benifit from. all people should see the great sky at night, away from the lights you city people love, all people should watch as the kangaroo leaps through the air, all people should see the sun come over this land as it rises from its sleep time. all people should know the power of this land and the hold it has on us all.
a very wise, very old full blood elder told me this as we sat side by side on top of nourlangie rock in the top end. i was 8 at the time and had been in australia only 2 years.
thats my 10 cents.

rick.
AnswerID: 121366

Reply By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 22:13

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 22:13
Guys, most of the current countries in the world have been conquered at some time in their history. Some of the great civilizations of Europe have been conquered many times. Most of them got over it hundreds of years ago.

With 21st century judgment, we may well say it was unfair (in Australia and many other places). But unfortunately none of it can be changed. We can hardly all go back to where our ancestors came from. Some of us don't even know where that is!!!!!

Now to the point of the thread. I have no objection with Aborigines being granted rights of use or even title to some of our land(and I mean our in the broadest possible sense -whether an 'Australian' for 60,000 years or 6 years). But given the nature of the grant (note grant, not purchase, or conquer); there should be at least a right of passage for Australian citizens and visitors. Sure have a permit system so they know who is there. Even charge a small fee to help maintain the place. But don't deny me access to somewhere that for 190 of the past 200 years my predecessors could go.

No need for anyone to get heated on this topic. Just stating an opinion does not make one a racist. Like others, I grew up in a country town with a large aboriginal population. That doesn't make my opinion any more or less valid than anyone else's.
AnswerID: 121382

Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 21:46

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 21:46
Hi Norm

The problem is that the Aborigines were only recognized as humans after 1975 (before they were classed as flora) I (myself) fine it had to believe that this happed in my life time (43 yoa)
Do you really think it is someone else's problem. it's happed on our witch (as the US like to say).
Hate maybe to strong a word, I agree but all the bleep @#%$# words used on this forum to express a point of view might lead me (myself) to see hatred in some.
To class this forum as a debate is debatable as it is a expression of personal views.
Thanks for yoyr reply (it's not a pitty) as it gives me (myself) something to think about

Regards

Richard Kovac
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FollowupID: 376652

Follow Up By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 23:07

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 23:07
Hi again Richard. Not trying to justify any treatment of aboriginals, but I don't quite follow your reference to 1975 and considering aboriginals to be flora. Following are some facts on constitutional change:

In 1967 a Constitutional Referendum overwhelmingly approved the amendment of the Constitution. A YES vote was registered by more than 90% of Australian voters with all States voting in favour of:

A. The words other than the aboriginal race in any State were struck out of Section 51 xxvi so that the Commonwealth Parliament could now make special laws for Australian Aboriginals.

s.51 The Parliament shall,subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws for the peace, order and good government of the Commonwealth with respect to:

xxvi The people of any race, [[other than the aboriginal race in any State]], for whom it is deemed necessary to make special laws. (words in [[.....]] were deleted).

And

B. Section 127 was struck out in its entirety.

s.127 In reckoning the numbers of the people of the Commonwealth, or of a State or other parts of the Commonwealth, aboriginal natives shall not be counted.

So they must have been counted as citizens from 1967.

Interestingly, the citizens (black or white) of the ACT or NT were not permitted to vote in this referendum.

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FollowupID: 376674

Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 01:21

Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 01:21
Norm
sorry wrong date 75 = Racial Discrimination Act
67 = "Aboriginal people were not included in the universal suffrage granted to men and women in the Commonwealth Act of 1902. In 1949 the Commonwealth Electoral Act gave Aboriginals a federal vote if they were enrolled in their state or had completed military service. In 1962 (the year I was born) this was amended to include all indigenous people but perversely it was illegal to encourage them to vote until 1984 when compulsory enrollment and voting was introduced. In the 1967 referendum Australians voted for Aborigines to be included in the census as citizens - rather than as fauna and flora."
I'm not sorry that I'm a lefty
again thanks for the thoughts
Regards

Richard
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FollowupID: 376682

Reply By: Peter - Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 23:40

Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 at 23:40
i must say this topic has really bought out the worst in people on both sides of the fence. it always amuses me that people will justify their point of view with an argument that could just as easily be used against them. whether they are for or against.
just a few corrections to some supposed facts. the ingenious people of australia never just aimlessly wandered this land and never owned or improved anything. at the time of colonisation by the whitefellas 230 different languages and "nations" existed. if you trespassed, blackfella or whitefella, war broke out. everyone was welcome but permission had to be obtained and respect shown for the land owners whose land you were on. there were many trade routes throughout australia.for instance ochre from the far north was traded in victoria. improvements like fish traps where used and the burning of land the do patchwork farming and food gathering was done throughout australia. in southern and coastal australia permanent settlements existed and a kind of farming was carried out as people moved between their settlement to allow the plants to revegetate. when tribes got together for festivals and corroberees thousands would attend.
in terms of owning the land, yes terrus nullus was declared by the british. but melbourne was founded when the first settlers made a treaty with the locals to buy their land. so in other words the whitefellas figured we had better buy the land from those that were here first. unfortunately most of australia wasn't settled this way.
as for all the native title stuff about giving something to blackfellas for nothing this isnt exactly correct. the mabo case was won by the murray islanders because they proved that they had been on the land continuously since whitefellas arrived and also that they had in place a system of land ownership and tribal/clan title that allowed individuals and family groups to lay claim to specific areas of the island. in other words they had a system of blackfella land ownership that was similiar to whitefella ownership with its private property titles, pastoral titles, mining titles etc.
so as i see it. when whitefellas arrived and began conquering, settling, civilising, colonising, stealing, whatever phrase you want to use based on your opinion. they were using the current laws to their advantage even if it rubbed people up the wrong way.in other words the blackfellas.
now today, we have a law that says oops we got it wrong. the blackfellas did actually own the land and we didnt tie up all the loose ends properly and now they can get back some of the land that was appropriated in an improper manner. so what we have happening today is blackfellas using today's whitefella law to take back, settle, recolonise, steal, whatever phrase you want to use based on your opinion. land that they can prove they have been on since whitefellas turned up, land they still use in the traditional way and land that no one else privately owns. and even if it isnt privately owned they still arent automatically entitled to it. they still have to prove they have continually lived on it and practice some of the old ways. this is why they have failed on many occasions with land claims. eg the yota yota claiming parts of the murray country around barmah.
so i guess what goes around comes around. if we whitefellas can do it so can the blackfellas. its kind of funny reading whitefella people complaining about its our land and they are taking it without any justification, without working for it, for free, without our consent. i reckon the blackfellas would have been saying the same thing in the 1800's.
now as for the original part of this post- access to land- i think equinox is spot on. it is really unfair and frustrating that their are areas on this great big land we love and call australia we cannot access. whether that is because its a wilderness area, aboriginal land, pastoral land, private land, mining lease, military land, etc etc. it is especially unfair and bogus when one was once able to access that land but now cannot. i had this great hunting spot i used to go to. then the owners changed and i wasnt allowed on again. damn new owners. black of white. the area around licola has been declared a wilderness. damn greenies. i dont need to go on. i could be here all night.
the point is someone always has authority to decide, who, when, how and if we can access parts of australia. its the law. that damn law again. sometimes good, sometimes bad. we for the most part obey it whether we like it or not. going around blaming the blackfellas is wrong when whitefellas are doing the same thing. you try getting onto some of the pastoral properties without permission and you are likely to get shot. i have seen it happen.
as for public and private road. if its public then buggered if i should pay a permit to be on that road. its called right of way. the law backs us up. but if the road is private then unfortunately the law backs the owner up.we pay.
so anyway, if anyone is having trouble accessing roads just come and visit me in bairnsdale. the road outside my place is wide and free. i will wave hello to you as you go past. feel free to do a u turn and try again.
AnswerID: 121392

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 02:10

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 02:10
but would ya still say that if we camped outside, shat on ya front lawn, left empty stubbies and rubbish around and did a bit of circlework to top it off? I dont have any answers either way, but looking at the length of your post you must be having fun and Im missing out.
Best I join in!!
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FollowupID: 376512

Follow Up By: Photoman - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 07:29

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 07:29
Very well said Peter, I will remember next time to fully explain my argument as you have done - my concern at the time was, those who I was originally having this friendly discusion with ie The Truk, would not bother to read a lenghty post. But as we can se e from the number of views of the thread, may are bothering to read,

Imagine if everyone just kept their mouth shut - the pubtalk politics would be taken as fact buy all, and sooner or latter we would all be victims of bigetory.

Everyone has the right to free speach in this country thats one right you do still have - at the moment - but some want to shout you down when it goes against the popular opinion

After rereading all the posts I have a couple of things to say to all in my defence

I never claimed we should be "giving awy land or money' to try and solve the problem

I never said anyone here stole anything

Idid say, respect people and except the past as what has brought us to this point, The mess we now have to fix, I don't have all the answers, but talking openly, showing respect, and taking resonsibility is a good place to start, BLACK, WHITE or RED NECK
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FollowupID: 376515

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 14:20

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 14:20
Peter, your Eastern states ( dunno where you are from but my money Is that is correct) retiric does not address the fact that there is no aboriginal land on the Eastern seaboard despite that having the highest concentration of Aboriginals at the time of Colinisation, co- incedence or convenience
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FollowupID: 376558

Reply By: Bob of KAOS - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 07:34

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 07:34
I can get a permit (visa) to visit almost any country in the world. I am able to travel around freely even work in some. I have to follow their customs, obey their laws, and leave when my visa expires. The countries that make it difficult for foreigners to visit usually have something to hide, and stand out as being hard places for the locals to live in.

I draw the analogy with the extensive aboriginal lands in Central Australia (have a look at the map to confirm that this area is bigger than many independant nations). You can't get a visa (permit) to visit these places.

If those determining the policies were looking to the future, rather than the past, the situation would be different.

It is undeniable that grave injustices were committed against the original inhabitants of Australia. However, to contemplate a huge continent like Australia surviving uninvaded by anyone else during the last 200 years, and only aboriginal people living here as they did for thousands of years before is fanciful.

Would the French, Dutch, Indonesians, Chinese etc have done a better job than the Poms? Who knows? The real issue is to get on with doing the best we can from now on. Like the misguided welfare centered approach of the seventies and eighties, we will probably find out too late that creating an isolated aboriginal nation was a big mistake.
AnswerID: 121400

Reply By: Nudenut - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 08:32

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 08:32
Centuries ago one or some of my ancesters must have fought and invaded someones land somewhere...do i need to say sorry?

this is our land, why segregate it!

AnswerID: 121407

Follow Up By: Member - toohey - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 08:51

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 08:51
great debate you mob,i reckon this is what a good forum is all about.
david would this post hold some sort of record?
regards toohey
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FollowupID: 376527

Reply By: Member - Landie - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 10:28

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 10:28
Going back to the original post in this topic........

Access has been denied because of a perception that people have abused the privilege of being on this portion of land, no other reason.

Now it seems to me that is something we, as four-wheel drivers, can influence in a more immediate way. Repsect the land you are on, clean up before you leave, respect areas of significance to others, behave in a responisble manner and most likely access will continue to be granted.

If you see someone acting irresponsibly, speak to them about it, because this is the end result of it - Access denied!

One only has to look at the mess that is left after visitors to campsites all over Australia to realise there are many people out there that should be denied access to this great land of ours - and that is regardless of race, colour or creed.

AnswerID: 121422

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 11:05

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 11:05
>One only has to look at the mess that is left after
>visitors to campsites all over Australia to realise
>there are many people out there that should be denied
>access to this great land of ours - and that is
>regardless of race, colour or creed.

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with the above I must also say that, by far, the worst rubbish dumpers and mess makers I have seen in the bush have been Aborigines.

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 376540

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 11:20

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 11:20
during a cultural awarness course my freind did for work he asked exactly the same question, and the answer from the Aboriginal was an acknowledgement that this was fact and only explanation was perhaps as a culture they are not used to having and carrying stuff
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Follow Up By: Member - Landie - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 13:51

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 13:51
Mike,

I'll take your word at that, however in my mind a mess is a mess, regardless of who makes it. As I said, regardless of race, colour, or creed!

Regards
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FollowupID: 376555

Reply By: gramps - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 13:53

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 13:53
While re-reading this thread a phrase we're all too familiar with kept coming to mind

Are we there yet! Are we there yet!

Of course we are'nt. While ever there is a real or perceived 'segregation' (from the black OR white point of view) within this country we cannot and will not make any forward progress. Isolating minorities in remote areas without the means to improve there lot in life is nothing less than slow genocide.

I'd expect our political leaders to at least acknowledge that their current policies/strategies are not working and have'nt worked anywhere else in the world (e.g. Canada, USA, SA, etc).

Only my opinion, like my !@#$hole, everyone's got one.

Bugger, maybe I can't qualify as a Redneck after all.

AnswerID: 121442

Follow Up By: Photoman - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 15:01

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 15:01
Your right Gramps, its the segrigation by race, I'm a racist because I still segrigat by race, unfortunatly old habits die hard.

While ever we generalize or "Streotype" people based on race, we are Racists, nomatter which side you are batting for. Obviouslly we are not going to solve the problem here. BUT, we are now starting to get some actual debate, more people are prepared to stand up for those who dont have access to the COMMs we have to stand up for them selves.

On my last trip out through the centre I found that a lot the "tourists"" were very quick to get stuck into to aboriginals, even when I'd stop for a cuppa, some bloke would be about "the blacks" within minites of introduction. When I travel anyware in the world I try to abserve and learn, Not Whinge and judge. Now just because all Whingers I came across were retired folk in 4x4s, I dont say, all oldies are rich racists, that would be rediculas!!!

Coments like " Aboriginals are the worst for leaving rubbish" is just anouther steriotype, I dont think we've located the gene for tidyness, most these comunities have no sanitary services, so of coarse theres rubish, I see plenty of Farms in all parts of Oz with 50 car bodies, drums everywhere and houses in disrepair I dont think it makes any differance what colour the owner is. While ever people consume goods and have no way of disposing of the waste there will be rubbish.

PS all Have they found the gene for greed yet?, (yes i am going out of my way to stoke the fire
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FollowupID: 376573

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 19:11

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 19:11
crap crap and more crap Photo man, Next to the Feddy pub in Kalgoorlie is what is claimed to be the worlds biggest bin (not including normal sized bins which indigenous folk congregate en masse and they pile all the rubish everwhere EXEPT IN THE DAMN BINS (including the worlds biggest bin) so dont give me that. I learnt from an early age that if you wanted to make money you went out to the blacks camps after they had moved on and sifted through the mountains of rubish (free dumping at the tipp!!!!) to get the 1l bottles that would be cashed in 5 to the dollar (good money in 1980) difference with farms and rubish (as you claim is they OWN the land and can do with it as they see fit
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FollowupID: 376610

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 01:25

Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 01:25
here here davoe, where in sydney, melbourne, perth do you findbleeppiled up, dirty unwashed kids sniffing petrol glue etc without any effort to combat the problem other than white fellas throwing money, land and councillors at it. Does anyone think aus would have been better off colonised by french? Like F...!! look at new caledonia, algeria etc etc
Things are FAR from ideal, but suggest something that might work that doesnt cost s... loads of money you "anti-redneckers?"
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Reply By: Footloose - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 15:55

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 15:55
I've always found the CLC and the communities to be quite reasonable. Obviously some travellers have done the wrong thing, and stuffed it for the rest of us.
I don't like being restricted in my travels but can appreciate that sometimes such restrictions may be, from the point of the locals, necessary.
This thread has spawned many posts, some of which have merit and others which show a total lack of appreciation of what aboriginality means today.
Perhaps a common implied view is that most aboriginal people are the same. They aren't. Just like us whitefellas there are good and bad, knowledgeable and stupid indigineous people, just as there are hopeless whitefellas.
Am I familiar with the problems and points raised ? You bet. In fact I've devoted quite some years to studying them both from an academic point of view and on the ground.
So if you're so bloody smart, Footloose, whats the answer?
I honestly don't know, and would hate to be in a position of having to formulate policy in this area. But there are some things I believe.
When you take away the past with no hope of a future then the present can be pretty dismal.
White policy seems to have been to inculcate a kind of hip pocket cargo cult mentality. Throwing money at these problems doesn't fix them.
Having just returned from an aboriginal community, the little I saw there made me very glad I was born white. (and not for the first time). Why ?
I have known the dignity of work and have been lucky enough to benefit from that.
I have health, a roof, clothing and food that I was lucky enough to be able to earn.
My life has had purpose. Nobody discriminated against me because of my colour.
I could go on ad nauseum. (some prob think I already have :))

There used to be an old saying which is appropriate in this case.
"There, but for the grace of God Go I "

AnswerID: 121455

Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 16:31

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 16:31
Hi Footloose

I had an apprentice once (now a trades man) that complained to me about the aboriginals getting all that money for nothing!!!

I asked him if he would like to be Black, you have to be Black to get this Money.

He thought about it, then said no, he has not complained again

He now has a sister in law who is aboriginal from Meekatharra which I have met and is very nice.

I would fined it hard to change my way of thought, of being an aboriginal if I read and heard so much hate as I have read today

Regards

Richard
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FollowupID: 376584

Follow Up By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 18:47

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 18:47
Richard Kovac, we obviously see things a bit differently. There are almost 100 posts on this thread to date. If nothing else, that shows this is a subject which many people have a view on. It is also one with a direct impact on our common interest (traveling to out of the way places and experiencing this great land). It therefore should be discussed openly.

Through my read of the thread, I've seen frustration, perhaps some anger, some misinformation (in my view) from both sides of the debate, a little intolerance of different views, and perhaps a bit of ignorance, but I haven't seen much in the way of hate. That is a very powerful word and I think, incorrectly applied in such a sweeping way to this debate.

The diverse views expressed here are simply a reflection of the community view, I suspect. The use of emotive terms like 'hate' and 'racist' (not used by you) in these debates are generally an attempt to stifle the debate. That simply serves to increase the mistrust and misinformation.

Not an attack on you at all Richard. You have expressed a view and I respect that. It was simply an opportunity to make an observation on how these debates generally flow, and why, generally, they simply lead to more frustration and anger.

What a pity.
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FollowupID: 376603

Reply By: Member - Landie - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 16:30

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 16:30
I think rhetoric replaced reason on both sides of this discussion.

It is fair to say that the aboriginal people of Australia used the same laws that protect each and everyone of us to their own advantage - and why shouldn't they, after all one law for all seems fair to me.
AnswerID: 121462

Follow Up By: Footloose - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 18:07

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 18:07
I could got to town here but my soapbox is too high to reach after tea :)
Couple of points.

Which parts were rhetoric, exactly ?

"the aboriginal people of Australia"...it's far more accurate to say "the aboriginal peoples of Australia"...see my previous post.

"One law "? Huh ? Since when? One law in respect to ??
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Follow Up By: Member - Landie - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 19:32

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 19:32
Hi Footloose

I sense you that you feel I was referring to your post. I'm talking about the tone of some of the posts and follow-ups. Plenty of rhetoric replacing reasoned discussion in many of them

One law - I refer to our judicial system. The aboriginal people used the system to achieve what they rightly believed was theirs. I'm not arguing their case - just pointing out that the law has ruled in their favour with respect to Mabo, Wik etc.

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FollowupID: 376617

Follow Up By: Photoman - Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 09:07

Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 09:07
Hi Mike

Racist is throught to be a stong word i aggree, but I think it could be justifiably used to discribe Truckster's desription of how he'd like to finish off the residents of Finke (see early posts).

What people have to remember is that we all have had bad (and good) experiance with people from differant racial back grounds, But when you then apply a value judgement to all people from that race,.. well.. thats racist!!!

Some are SO racist that they make judgement in subgroups, ie.. half cast 1/4 cast etc.

As far as tring restrict the debate - I think that early in this thread you'll find those who wanted to do that, they came out with all guns blazing but as soon as they hid some resistance soon ran out of ammo ... and tried to END the thread... These are the type I come across a lot in my travels, they want to winge, but as soon as you ask them to justify there claims, they soon shut up, I guess then they label me a do gooder and the complain to the next passer by about me, o well I can handle it.

This discusion has now reached a higher level than its beguinings, intelligent coment is being made, and I'm learning stuff - thats why I like EO .. I learn stuff.. makes me a better person, hope we are all learning stuff here.

Here's a thought, Next time someone has a whinge, about anything, even if you agree as them why?, then ask them what are you going to do about it? This is what I do, and its interesting how many people can't even justify the "why" bit.

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FollowupID: 376702

Reply By: Outbacktourer - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 16:30

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 16:30
Contributors to this thread seeking further edification may by reading in order "The fabrication of Aboriginal History" by Keith Windshuttle, the academic response in the form of "Whitewash" ed. by Robert Manne and then "Washout" by John Dawson.
AnswerID: 121463

Follow Up By: Footloose - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 18:23

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 18:23
Before doing so it's interesting to have a look at the history of white "civilization" in Australia, so that white and black incidents and policies etc can be put into historical context. Its important to find out not only what the story is but also why it is/was.

An interesting sidelight is the role white women played in the development of the colony. An excellent text here is "Dammed whores and Gods' police". Sorry, I've forgotten the author...(Prof Anne Summers ?)

And if you really want to have a tiny clue, go sit in the gutter with the young and old aboriginal people and listen with an open mind. Repeat the process in different communities and towns. When finished you still won't have even scratched the surface, but you'll certainly appreciate your way of life a bit more.

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FollowupID: 376598

Follow Up By: Photoman - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 18:36

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 18:36
Studied a bid of Manne's work, Thanks for bringing it up. Also worth a look is research buy Prof David Roberts at UNE (Bells Falls Massacre and Wellington mission project),

Unfortunatly Outback, many people would rather believe some bloke at the pub or their dad than people who do unbias reseach of ozi history and policy
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 18:41

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 18:41
I doubt whether your advice will be taken by many of the contibutors to this debate guys.

One of the better books, I believe, which paints the hopelessness of the indigenous community is Jackson's Track: Memoir of a Dreamtime Place, by Daryl Tonkin and Carolyn Landon.

It documents through the eyes and words of Daryl Tonkin, a WHITE Australian bushman, inter-racial love and prejudice, the decline of an Aboriginal community, and the deliberate destruction by white officialdom of a culture and a way of life.
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FollowupID: 376600

Follow Up By: gramps - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 19:46

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 19:46
Photoman,

'people who do unbias reseach of ozi history and policy'

The problem I have is that I am cynical enough, with good historical reason, to believe that not every academic etc is unbiased.

I prefer to treat everyone equally to start with and go from there. I don't consider myself a bleeding heart (far from it) but then again I am not a racist either.

I prefer to think I am one of the majority (?) of Australians who want something effective and ongoing done to improve the lot of our indigenous people but who are absolutely fedup with the incompetence of the politicians AND public servants we pay to resolve these issues. It does'nt matter who you vote for, they continue to !@#$ it up.

No I don't have a magic solution and neither does anyone else. It will take several generations to achieve any sort of major result but at the moment we don't even look like having a viable plan in place.

The only thing I can suggest is that we treat them with respect in any dealings we have with them and go from there.

I'll continue down the middle of the road until I eventually get run over by a truck going either way.

ps I know using 'them' as a collective is probably not politically correct but .................
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FollowupID: 376618

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 21:00

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 21:00
Instead of lying in the gu´tter with those of no motivation no hope and no prospects, how about work with those that choose not to lie in the gutter, to give a damn and improve heir prospects. I have Have YOU!!!! Common thread amongst all o´f them is they have to turn away their bludging no hoping looooosers of rellies so called freinds and other associated bottom dwellers to be able to access the massive job opportunities and take full advantage of whats on offer rather than continue to be pulled down by those with no motovation or prospects. These people are excellent role models. Unfortunatly they are bagged byn those that choose welfare and called coconuts (and worse)
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FollowupID: 376641

Follow Up By: gramps - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 22:03

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 22:03
Davoe,

Although I would'nt have put it quite as bluntly or as all encompassing as that, you are right about role models and positive influences. They do exist and they are slowly having an effect.

As stated in other posts there is the issue of responsibility on both sides of the fence as well. Their tribal/extended family culture can be, and is, manipulated by negative influences within their own communities. Unfortunately that is the aspect that seems to generate the most media coverage. Not unusual in any society. Check the evening news/newspapers and count the good news stories compared to bad news. Good news does'nt 'sell' as consistently as or have the WOW effect of bad news.
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FollowupID: 376660

Follow Up By: Outbacktourer - Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 07:19

Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 07:19
Photo, if you have read some of Manne, you really should read the Windshuttle work. Dawson is more clinical and provides support.
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FollowupID: 376691

Reply By: See You - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 19:37

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 19:37
We have all payed permits to drive on our own land (called registration). I don't object to pay for a permit to pay on their land.

If you Call Darkie Bill at Pmere Nyente. He works with the Central Land Council for local permits. Tell him that Sean Uneberra at National Gold Exploration Pty Ltd sent you. He and I work together a bit. He has assisted many friends of mine to organise permits when they have been made "unavailable". Worth a try.

See You NT
AnswerID: 121493

Reply By: dougie diesel - Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 23:46

Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 at 23:46
Photoman
I'm with you. I also think there are plenty of precedents where access to parts of Australia are denied or require a permit that has nothing to do with Aborigines and their land. Take for example the access road for the Indian Pacific railway. It's an Aussie icon and why shouldn't we be allowed to drive next to it? Take also the pilbara access road between from Karratha and follows the railway line. I had to watch a video and get a permit for that one.
I think this debate has perhaps shown where some people on this forum are really at. If so much disrespect is shown to a disadvantaged minority, how much respect is really being shown to the environment. Are tracks rightly being closed and access being denied because 4x4 owners cannot show respect. I believe equinox was referring to these people - not the CLC. Some narrow minded idiots have just used the post as an excuse to vomit their racist views in cyberland.
Dougie
AnswerID: 121538

Follow Up By: Member - Landie - Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 06:35

Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 06:35
Well said!
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FollowupID: 376689

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 07:10

Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 07:10
And this is an attempt to stifle debate isn't it? To try and label the criticism of (especially black) racial groups as racism - were we discussing access to the farms of white farmers you wouldn't be screaming racism would you?

I have seen no racism in the 100+ posts to this thread only healthy sensible debate on land access and the plight of Aboriginals in Australia.

And I would admonish you for slyly attempting to brand those of us who don't follow your view as racist. It is, actually, OK to discuss the bad parts of different societies whether they are black, whit or green - or perhaps you would also label Noel Pearson a racist too? A man who wants to cut welfare to Aborigines.

Finally: some years ago when many (if not most) people on this forum were in nappies I was actively fighting racism in another part of the world - not just writing letters, like you, but regularly putting my safety and liberty at risk - so don't damn well lecture me about racism.

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 376690

Follow Up By: Photoman - Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 09:09

Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 09:09
Hi Mike

Racist is throught to be a stong word i aggree, but I think it could be justifiably used to discribe Truckster's desription of how he'd like to finish off the residents of Finke (see early posts).

What people have to remember is that we all have had bad (and good) experiance with people from differant racial back grounds, But when you then apply a value judgement to all people from that race,.. well.. thats racist!!!

Some are SO racist that they make judgement in subgroups, ie.. half cast 1/4 cast etc.

As far as tring restrict the debate - I think that early in this thread you'll find those who wanted to do that, they came out with all guns blazing but as soon as they hid some resistance soon ran out of ammo ... and tried to END the thread... These are the type I come across a lot in my travels, they want to winge, but as soon as you ask them to justify there claims, they soon shut up, I guess then they label me a do gooder and the complain to the next passer by about me, o well I can handle it.

This discusion has now reached a higher level than its beguinings, intelligent coment is being made, and I'm learning stuff - thats why I like EO .. I learn stuff.. makes me a better person, hope we are all learning stuff here.

Here's a thought, Next time someone has a whinge, about anything, even if you agree as them why?, then ask them what are you going to do about it? This is what I do, and its interesting how many people can't even justify the "why" bit.
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FollowupID: 376703

Follow Up By: Photoman - Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 10:02

Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 10:02
I thought Id add some personal experiance of my own.

3 years ago I broke down at Strezlecki crossing, managed to limp to Copley for repairs and had 2 days to kill, it was the off season so no holiday makers or Gray Nomads around, town was very quiet. As I walked the streets (both of them) taking photos I kept passing by a Oldish Aboriginal sitting in the dirt next to his XF falcon. After a few hours he seemed a little distressed, so I went and said "G'day, do you need a hand with anthing mate?"

Now I could Have asumed he'd been kicked out of the pub or didn't have any money and kept walking by. But the fact was he was waiting for his niece to arive from the big smoke on the bus, but the bus was half a day late, he was very worried for her wellbeing, as she had just had some bad racial experiances in the city, So the family decided she should come home, HOME its an important place to some!!!

I then headed up the Oodnadatta, and got to the namesake town, what a disapointment, the Pink Roadhouse i mean, Rude dirty and expensive, what a tourist attraction!!. I refuse to pay to camp in the filthy " Camp ground" (read, "big fence to make you feel safe"). So I walked the lenght of the main to assess other options.

Once again, sitting in the dirt was a middle aged Aboriginal lady drawing pictures in the red sand with a stick. She looked at me with mistrust as I approached, but I said "G'day can y giv-me a hand, I need a place to camp, any good spots around town?'... with that she stood up, I thought she was gunna leave, But no, she gave me directions to one of the best bush camps I've ever had the plesure of, Go north about XXXXXXXXX actually no I wont give directions. On the river, no rubbish, no circle work and free...

I could give a length story I how I tried to X the river at Tom Groggen, Bloody Whites locked us out even though it public access... Same south east of Kempsey Bloody Whites again... Hippies too

Now if I was to now say that all abo's are tops and you'll never have a problem... that would be racist, There is good and bad in all, Black or White you'll find what you expect in people... Yes theres a risk you'll run into trouble, but that applies anywhere... that why its called Adventure. Ive read two stories of touring the world on motorbike, Kashmere, Iran, talk about risky, But if you learn peoples culture, even a little, and show them respect you have a positive experiance. Be self rightious, arrogant and condisending and you'll get trouble.

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FollowupID: 376714

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 10:23

Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 10:23
The last paragraph: well said Photoman.

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 376725

Follow Up By: gramps - Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 13:59

Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 13:59
Photoman,

Very well said. Like Mike, I'm hardpressed to see anything that drastic that I would call anyone in this discussion definitely racist. Frustrated at the lack of progress - yes.
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FollowupID: 376767

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 14:22

Friday, Jul 22, 2005 at 14:22
Rascist racist Rasist rascist, What does it mean???? I used to be called rascist many times a day at a previos part time job - Heck I was proud of the term coz if it wasnt being slung at me I wasnt doing my job. If being a rascist was confiscating paint sniffers cans and removing the offenders, Stopping kids from bombing mothers with infantts, removing people for spitting (i mean huge jellyfish) on the floor, kicking 6year old unsupervised children out for stealing........ the list goes on any kind of antisocial behavior you care to mention I have had to deal with it and was nearly always called Rascist for doing so so yea I am proud to be caled Rascist if that is what it takes to keep the local swimming pool safe and fun for legitemite users,
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FollowupID: 376769

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