Q?- OT can i ask the single dads here.....

Frank...thank your lucky stars you can have him at all. I'd be picking him up and dropping off if it means access.....dont think you'll get orders to get her to share that responsibilty....

it does have some advantages....she'll never know who might be sharing you abode with you....they can get cranky if they see another lady hanging around

I can't comment on your situation, but all the best with it. Wrt camping & outdoors, I can't think of a better thing for the youngsters. Took our first two when 2.5yo and 1.25yo. Was a bit hard with the youngest, she wasn't old enough to listen and remember near water, etc, but saying that we have been many places with them before, since, and now again with 3 kids, at 5, 3, and 1. They love it, and it is fantastic for their development. Its harder on us than them, being vigilant etc, but so what. Any puddle's a good puddle at that age and great for them. As for 4x4 driving, I haven't tried it with them yet, bit hard I think for them to hang on if it is bumpy. YMMV.

Mate, I don´t know anything about the legal stuff, but I can tell you that he´ll love the bush.

Ulises

Can't help you with the pick up and drop off stuff but as for 4wding I can't see what is wrong with it. I am in a responsible 4wd club and there have been a few very young kids out on trips with us. They all seem to really enjoy themselves and I couldn't see there parents intentionally putting them in any danger.

It is a shame when kids get used in a break up.

Better to get them interested in the outdoors and the bush than have them sit on their backside indoors playing computer games all day. As has already been mentioned, its great for the development of kids, both physical and mental to be out in the bush.

Its a very sad situation to be in.

Wont comment on the legal stuff either but as common sense has it, If you are a responsible father (as you are) then where you take your son is no ones business except yours. Enjoy the outdoors and share it with him. Teach him the basic skills for out door living as you would when at home. Just enjoy him while you can. I recently lost my father to cancer, unfortunately for me I never got around to doing the things we always talked about doing together. No excuse for it, we just thought we had time. But cancer waits for no man, when its time...its time !

Dont bother with anything else except your son and your time together. everything will come together in time.
Ange

I was a single mother for many years before Steve and I got together, not knowing your x maybe its just the fear of not being there to watch over your son there are a few extra danger camping with little ones. Then again I know women that just like to be difficult.

On the flip side though we've been camping with our youngest since she was 1, and she is now three, apart from having to be on your toes especially around water and campfires (they have that there one minute gone the next thing that they do) we have no regrets ask anyone we camp with she loves it.

This is the best lifestyle for kids, out in fresh air!

Sandy

Sorry, can't really help you on the pick up and drop off. Not in that situation, so don't understand.
But I do have some older boys and talking to a couple of friends, we all find it interesting that our wifes get very concerned about the boys (and girls for that matter) wanting to try something a little risky, like climbing a tree, or playing in puddles, or riding a bike over mounds, or .....; the list goes on. Now we seem to agree that it is part of the mothering instinct, it is just something they do, not by conscious thought. (Apologies to any moms out there that may feel I have put motherhood down, I havn't, it is one of the cornerstones of life.) Maybe, and it is a guess here, but your X is in an emotional turmoil, just as you are over the current situation, and the protective instinct is now gone into overdrive a little.

Been reading an interesting book, "Wild at Heart", and the author is remembering his childhood, and looking at his sons, and how boys will push the envelope of experience as part of learning. He liked visiting his grandfather out west, and helping with herding the cattle (USA). How he took his son of 13 rock climbing with him one day, since he did it on a regular basis. Only did a simple climb of 30m, but his son found it difficult, but suceeded. A great moment to share, and build the relationship.

We need to let our children experiment, it is part of our nature and how we learn. Our job is knowing the limit through experience and gently applying the brakes when required. And it is normal for children up to about 6 to 9 to be mother orientated, but they do become progressively more father orientated in the older years. So you will have an even more important role further down the track. I don't know what you can do to ensure that you will still have access, and yet at the same time build a new relationship with your x so you still have some respect from her. It has been hard enough in my family bringing up two sons with a wife I adore, my heart is with you mate as you try and work through this. All I know is that it takes time and effort for any relationship that is worthwhile, so don't give up.
And our boys really loved camping and 4x4. Both did thier first trips when 6 months old. Suppose I am lucky enough to have a wife who was a little of a tomboy when she grew up. Her two brothers may have helped too, she had to learn to live with them :-).

'Been in a similar situation myself. Re pickup and drop off, I would wear it. In my case we had orders that the x would pick them up but she wouldn't. Couldn't not go to work so took it on the chin. 8yrs now, gets a little easier with time. Re camping and 4wdriving. Try a tame day trip or camping with friends with children prefferably someone she knows. Baby steps is the key. The odd bribe is worth considering as they usually make decisions like this out of spite.
Good Luck Shane

Ive been taking my kids bush since about 4 months old (40 odd degrees and no aircond, just a wet blanket hanging over a port-a-cot).
Now they are aged 6 and 9 they would go camping every weekend given a chance.
Tell the x to get her head out of the sand and take them camping herself or is play-station easier?

Good luck Mate!

Your missus sounds like a real slag. Just tryin to make life hard as possible for you.

So repay the favor. Start calling her and say your car is broken down you'll have to come and pick him up.

As for not going camping, what you do when you have him - YOU are the guardian. You can do what you like, go where you like the works.

Ive taken Cammo with me since he was 2, and he loves camping...

Your better off taking him camping and seeing there is more to the world than Playstations and Xbox's.

Call a lawyer.. But good ones are hard to find.

Like the rest I can't offer any advice on the legal matters, but there is plenty of evidence on the Net of parents taking their very young children 4WD-ing.

I am sure that even on this site, David and Michelleh have some travel journals on taking their kids "off-road". I met Dave and Michelle in January last in Tassie, and they had their two young kids in tow and seemed to be enjoying it.

Even the legendary Len Beadell took his wife and very young child out with him when he was roadbuilding in what we would now consider as being intolerable conditions.

Enjoy your time in the bush with your little one. It is precious quality time.

Jack

Frank
I am not not divorced but many of my friends are. Never apologise for seeking advice from other men.

It is the nature of things that a mother worries about safety and children. Your son is a two year old and maybe he has given her a fright lately. When I was his age I used to scare the bleep out of my parents by escaping locked doors and high fences to roam around a big water hole and swamp that was over a kilometre away. I could see the ducks flying over our house and always wanted to find them!

You have no other alternative than to show you're listening and to make concessions. Continuing contact with your son is the important thing.

Show her that you recognise her concerns as valid and if this is going to cause a rift, try it another way (eg overnite stay in a caravan or cabin). Don't be tempted to just go ahead and conceal it from her.

It is essential for separated fathers to get counselling ASAP and a lot of support is available from men’s groups. Membership is cheap and it is help by others who are/have been similarly affected. Go to this site for starters and ring a contact:

http://www.menshealthandwellbeing.org.au/content/view/73/137/

Both sides have to love the child more than they dislike each other for things to work out. This book was written by an Australian bloke who also happens to be a barrister. It is simple, very practical, realistic (from his experience) and I can’t recommend it enough as a way to preserve your sanity and your relationship with your son. Get this book from a Council library or buy from the local bookshop:

http://www.fathersafterdivorce.com/

Travel time and other niggles: If you want to negotiate, find a benefit for the other person. Maybe there is less stress for your son if there is less travel time and you could help her out with something else.

Just concentrate on keeping the lines of communication open to ensure ongoing with your son. Even if that means eating crow and avoid the baits to have a blue with his mother.

Just keep on truckin'

EV700

Frank
I have been in your situation (albiet 12 years ago) and know exactly what you are going thru. If your ex wont be reasonable about it, As much as I hate to say it, in a situation like this you need see a soloictor and get a child agreement in place.
You are entitled to reasonable accces to your son. I have been with mine every weekend since he was 2.
The other thing to do is develop a really good relationship with your son. I have been 4wd, camping and motorbike riding with mine since my seperation from his mother on a regular basis and he is know 14 and we are more like best mates than father & son. He insists on being with me at every opportunity, which his mother now accepts. I think the best thing to do is try to reason with the kids mother, although I understand that this is sometimes very difficult to do in these situations. You both need to put the kids needs before your own.

Frank

I have been through most of it, from what i learnt there is no real legal normal for access visits. Although there is common rules that are made i.e non custodial parents get every second weekend etc. The issue of collecting and picking up was raised in my case as well. It is really just a power trip they play because they can get away with it.

My advice is just go along with it dont make a fuss, so in other words she doesn't get the satisfaction of knowing it bugs you. Also it looks better to the kids that Dad cares enough to come and get them for their weekend.

As far as what you do on weekends, do what ever is safe and responsible, and what the kids enjoy. Let them go back to their mom and tell here what a great weekend they had.

Be positive and rise above the crap that is dished out. In the long run you may not win but you certainly dont lose.

p.s i did the above and i now have the kids, all without a fight, they wanted to come to me.

Well your not alone on this issue Frank, I went through the same set up as you are now.

As a family we had our son in the bush while he was still in a cot and he rode on top of the load in the back of a SWB Crusier, ropped down of cause. So i guess the sceen was set to carry on after the bust up.

Now as a 26yo my son and I can still enjoy our trips away together because I kept that contact all through the difficult times, made the odd consessions but he never felt left out.

Work at it and all will turn out for the better.

Boc

We've taken our little one camping for the first time when he was 2 months old. Yes I know, it's probably easier and safer when the can't walk yet, but many of our frends have kids ranging in ages from a few months to a 6 years and they all take their kids campng. There's nothing like the quality time spent together in the wilderness. It gives kids space to run around and discover new things.

If you could settle without the intervention of lawyers you could put the $100 000 bill aside for your son's future education.

Hope it all works out for you.

R

Been in a similar situation.
It realy puts the head in a spin.
Your child has many rights and one is to know you, but you dont have any rights nor does your childs mother.
To fulfill your childs rights you all may have to do certain things.
Keep it simple.

Chas!MPG:7!

I can relate to your situation - I've been in the same boat (I mean 4-by) for the last 12 years.

While the ex really hated me, and did all she could to make life difficult for me, we managed to agree that taking our anger/frustration/whatever out on our (then) 5 yo was really damaging. It's really important to try and separate the relationships. We were both responsible for bringing our daugter into the world - we should be mature enough to do what's best for her, inspite of our natural feelings of revenge/retribution. We sort of managed it, and happily I don't think the little tacker ever felt like the meat in the sandwich.

Having said that, I did all the pickups/drop-offs. Sure I gotbleepoff sometimes, but the alternative was not spending time with my daughter. No brainer, really.

I knew a single-mum who split with her lawyer-husband. He shifted to the southwest and insisted (with lots of legal bastadry) that as they had legal joint custody the transport was a 50/50 responsibility. So their daughter (poor little soul) changed cars exactly half-way between Perth and Bunbury and had to walk the full length of the lay-by because the parents wouldn't speak to each other. Avoid lawyers at all costs.

Enjoy the time you have with your son. Kids and camping were meant for each other. Now if only they could change a muddy flat :-)

Taking advice off strangers on the internet is going to end you up in trouble all ALONE.

No-one here really gives a toss. It's just a way they can voice an opinion they would not have the guts to say face to face with their own x. Or even current woman. Some excluded of course.

You were silly enough to have a kid 2 years ago. In Australia it's been a no win battle for men since Hawke. Stupid you. Live with it.

I come here for camping and touring info, take your problems to your friends in the real world.

This is a computor monitor you are reading, not a councillor.

Two Dogs
I guess you dont have kids huh, I think you need to get you're head out of the sand and try and help this poor man, if you don't have anything constructive to say or you dont like the thread then ignore it and don't say anything.

On the otherside I have taken my son camping since he was 1, he loves running around and seeing kangaroos etc, sure he gets filthy but thats all part of being a kid.

Hang in there Frank it will work out

The court case is still in progress, but I have a mate that drives from Perth to Kal every fortnight to see his son. 6 hours each way, he forks out for accommodation and food whilst here. I only know of 2 separated couples with kids and I am not familiar with the female ever doing the majority or even half of any running around needed.
Rough.

Hi frank, this is coming from a womans point of view, If this is a fairly recent split then feelings, hurt, hate etc may still be lurking on the surface from your X so time may still be needed to get her to see your point of view re camping. If you get the chance though to take your little one camping or driving then go for it, great bonding time and memories will be built from these experiences.Kids are never to young to start camping. Good luck

Hi Boc,

These situations are really messy. I have a 14 yo who lives in another state. For 13 years, I have had to fly to Melbourne and pick him up and then fly back with him to Melbourne to drop him off !!! AT MY EXPENSE !!!!

Without court orders, it's basically do what you must to get what you want. Going to court is very expensive and never gives you what you want anyway. It might be worthwhile giving some dollars to a solicitor though just to find out what you really are entitled to.

As for taking him bush, again without court orders it is all a negotiation. Speak to a solicitor and find out, but you'll find that she will disagree with you on many, many things over the years. My ex wouldn't let my son come to my wedding and made up all sorts of excuses. It's not a good idea to specifically disobey her instructions if you've agreed to them, but she needs to be reasonable as well.

Good luck mate, it's a long hard road and I encourage you to do 2 things: Just fight the fights that are important and speak to a solicitor early on to find out what you are entitled to. You will be surprised. Also, keep a diary of everything. It sounds silly, but you'll love me for it it a few years time.

All the best,

Jason.

I'll just add here, that

Marriage is only a bit of paper
that says she gets it all
when she throws YOU out of your house
that you pay for.

I try and warn all mates not to make the mistake.
Just treat em as rentals. use em toss em away, never buy one, no problems.

treat em mean, keep em keen.

Might be hard now, but try this, I never said a bad word about my childs father, and made my family do the same thing. Decided that the problem was between him and I nothing to do with our child. When Steve and I were getting married my son was wondering when I was going to give his father an invitation (didn't happen).

The point is that even if your partner is one who is bitter and going to make this hard, stick to you guns, grab every minute you can, never say a word. Eventually when your child grows they will see the truth for themselves (believe me I'm there now).

Just a suggestion from a mother who knows what mean a lot to most mothers. Take time on your camping trips to take a special picture for Mummy. Little bits of thoughtfulness like that might melt the hardest heart. If not at least you know you've done your best.

And finally ditto on the keeping a record of everything. Phone conversations, payments, good contact and bad with your x, good to be able to produce in the future should you need.

Best of luck
Sandy

I have had similar problems regarding access to my daughter. The Magistrate at my court case gave the ex the option , of her dropping off my daughter on a friday
and me dropping her back on a sunday or the other way around. Prior to that I had them give me orders to say we met at a halfway point between our two houses in a public carpark. I found this was better in the beginning as I had the safety of a public place.

Hope this helps

Well Boc'y
You realy have sturd up the pot with this one.As far as pick up and deliverys go some form of court order would be nice providing she takes notice of it The problem is that if she doesnt then your no better of because it will mean you have to drag her back to court each time she breaks it at YOUR expense.Im devorced and gone throught all that stuff for the past 10 years ,my kids come camping all there lives.But now that I want to take the kids son 12, daughter 15 across the SD Im in court in a few weeks ,so far its cost $ 8,000.00 Over 12 mounths to get this far
.Rule No 1 try to see it from her side and be resonable(even when she's not)
No 2 leave the kids out of all the BS.
No 3 ONLY when all else fails go to court (better start saving)
Good luck and welcome to club.
Love your kids. Keep your mouth shut.Tell no one what your doing.You can allways ring and say your running late.
JACKPOT

Frank,
Been thru it too mate....My young bloke is now 16; I separated from his mother when he was 3.
For around 9 years I travelled to and from canberra to collect Nick every 2nd Friday night and returned him on the Sunday night. the 1st 4 years I was living a Batemans Bay (150+ klicks to Wanniassa); then I went to Cooma for 3 years (110 klms) and then Yass for 20 months (70 klms). Since moving from Yass to SA, I don't see Nick anywhere near as often; and than can be difficult too.

I've worked out that I travelled around 88,000 klms over those years, just picking up and dropping him off. Sometimes it was bloody hard.....she wouldn't be at home when i got there and I'd have to wait for a friggin hour etc etc.
As for the camping.......I have since remarried and Annette & I have 3 boys aged 9,7 & 4. We have taken them camping within a couple of months of them being born; they have simply not even known about NOT going camping. I must admit, I probably wouldn't have been so brave if i had to do it as a single father; there's no doubt it is harder when they are really young.

Good luck and try to remember that things will improve as time goes by and that come what may, your son will ALWAYS be your son; nothing she can do will ever change that.

My best wishes to you.

Roachie

Thanks to everyone for there Invaluable advice , with exception to 2 dogs ( will add you to the chite list )

My boys mother an i have been split up now for about 1 year -- she has since found i that i have 'moved on' and since then , all this crap has started. Gave her a new car that i had paid for mostly ( now fully paid off ) still not enough , pay 3 times what i am suposed to in child suport - still not enough .... all thats going to stop now ...

NEVER argue with her in front of the boy -- if something comes up - i walk away and tell her i will discuss it with her during the week on the phone and not in front of my son.

Once again - thanks all --and hope i can update with better news soon !

Frank

Frank
All the best in your camping and life together with your son
Cheers
Charlie

Frank get yourself to a lawer and sort something out I did and my does not ask where I take my little girl. Stand up and say what you want don't let the lady speak tell the lawer what you want and why. You will feel better for it. best of luck with it all let us know how you get on cheers chris

Frank,

The Family Court of Australia (if it comes down to it) will always decide a case based on what's best for the Child.

The Adults just have to be able to compromise and "behave" themselves in front of the child.

Now, I am not qualified to give legal advice and every case will be decided on its individual merits. However, I have previously worked as a Court Officer in the FCA and can say from experience that as a parent, YOU have sole responsibility for the care and welfare of your son, while he is in your custody. So, if you decide to take him camping, or fishing, or horse riding, or to the Football, SHE will just have to wear it because no Judge will give a tinker's toss as to her feelings and her inability to "let go" for the weekend.

My only advice to you, is to maintain a calm and outwardly amicable communication with your ex during pickups. Do not 'fight' in front of your son.
As far as the FCA is concerned, BOTH parties need to demonstrate equal co-operation with each other in the best interests of the child.

Any ridiculous demands made by either party on conditions of access, custody, etc., would be quickly sorted out by the Court system.
I have witnessed Court decisions whereby BOTH parties have been ordered to share country travelling EQUALLY, so anything your ex is trying to force on you is mainly bluff, even if she is getting proper legal advice.
My own observations have determined that some Solicitors can string a client on for a considerable period of time, as they are getting paid for each minute they are involved, but when all other avenues have failed, the end result is a Court case and the Solicitor must then engage the services of a Barrister to represent the parties in Court proceedings. More often than not, most cases last less than a day for issues in relation to custody and access. The Barristers will attempt to quickly negotiate the best compromise possible for their clients, knowing that it is just that, a compromise.
And every Judge I have known would sooner have the litigants determine their own direction, for the benefit of the child above all else, than have to make their decisions based purely on the evidence presented and the laws of the Family Court of Australia.

Frank, you can obviously identify with and relate to your son by sharing these 4WD and Camping experiences with him and HE loves you all the better for it because you are his DAD. You can obviously see it in his face and by his actions.

The very best of luck to you mate in your ongoing relationship with the lad.
You are doing nothing wrong.

I know you asked for male opinions but if you see the number of hits this thread has its a subject very close to home for a lot of people who come in here.

I was very nervous of my ex son in law taking my grandchildren 4 wheel driving but accepted it as I knew he would never willingingly do anything to cause the children harm, my daughter knew she had to accept it. The children loved it and now come with us at times also. I have seen within my family that some of the males are just as nuturing to the children as the females. I would consider 2 to be an ok age, especially if you go with other family groups.

The advice to keep a diary is one that is generally given and can prove invaluable up the track. You should try to get at least one session of advice from the best recommended Family Law Solicitor you can find. If that is beyond you, magistrates in NSW do give free advice.

My daughter twice was in Court and acted for herself against a group of Solicitors and a Barrister. She was given fair hearing, but felt she was disadvantaged with that kind of opposition. Overall the Judgment was reaonably fair. Most couples just cannot come to an agreement which is a shame and the preferable way.

Amongst her single friends it has become common place that the father picks up from the Mothers and the Mother picks up from the Fathers home at the end of contact and the Judge ruled that way in her case. In some cases with distance involved the meet half way on both occasions.

Hang in there, as you present it here your requests are not unreasonable and you and your son will have many hours of pleasure camping and enjoying each others company.

Carolyn