Petrol v Diesel

Recently bought a used Pajero NM 3.5L petrol - if we'd had the dosh I would have sprung for a 3.2L DiD instead - about 8-10L/100km instead of 13-16L/100km. Unfortunately our number of km's per year don't justify the extra upfront purchase cost, but the general attractiveness was the lower consumption, *far* greater range, and the prospect of future general availability of biodiesel. Reliability with either of these engines doesn't seem to be an issue.

Biodiesel was really my main interest - cleaner burning, renewable energy. I can't see biodiesel being a cheaper fuel - it's gonna get either taxed or profited from to be the same cost as fossil-fuels.

Im new to the site from inland WA, but ill put my 2 cents worth in.

I've had a Diesel Bundera Landcruiser and 2 Diesel GQ Patrols, and one 5L V8 Hilux. Hard to compare economy from 4 and 6 cyl diesels to a 5km/l snorting beast granted.

and im probably also not qualified to talk about the new gen of diesels with more electrics than u can poke a stick at.

The key reasons why diesels have been popular with 4x4 drivers have been
1) economy
2) traditionally cheaper fuel prices
3) torque/towability
4) reduced problems with electrics and watercrossings (unless u sink one)
5) and lets not forget one of the less thought of...but very significant issues
ENGINE BRAKING
6) reliability

How many petrol heads have tried going down a steep slope foot on the brake all the way down...do urselves a favour..and buy a diesel lol

they are still better on economy than petrols, and few would argue different. but the old myth about cheaper fuel has been well and truly blown...and is usually up to a few cents/l dearer than unleaded.

some say the new gen diesels can also suffer elec problems with water as there are so many sensors etc.

and engine braking doesnt come into account if u drive an automatic diesel.

but...i still drive a GQ Ti patrol, yeah...the bleep an..doesnt have any electrical problems...great down steep slopes that would scare the teeth out of your granny.

Petrols have their place, but i still think a true offroad vehicle should be a diesel.
i dont mind getting passed on the highway..cos i know ill pass u when we hit the hard stuff..

ok..and im probably ready to get cut down :-)

Hi there signman,the only thing I would say is that you would have to way up the costs involved eg, initial buying cost, servicing costs, they would be the 2 main things, everything else eg b/bar,t/bar, wheels etc would make no difference in costs.Yes as you said 45 weeks of the year comuting to and from work, but if you drive a big distance to and from work and your using say 20L per100klm in a petrol cruiser and say 12L in a diesel Thats 8 L every 100 klm difference over a full tank/s say 120L thats an extra 400 klm per tank. Lets say diesel is $1.30 a litre using 32 L less than a petrol thats a saving of $41.60 every full tank. But really how many people travel more than say 500 klms a week in the sydney area, not many I would imagine and if you weighed up the cost of purchasing a diesel over a petrol plus having to change the oil more reguarly plus the cost of fuel/oil filters as well, plus if a diesel pump shi@s itself compared to petrol as you said with all the new technology more to go wrong. Unless your towing something very heavy where you would probably be using 25L to 30 L in a petrol cruiser compared to say 15/20 in a diesel. Yeah I don’t really know would take a while to sit down and work every point out. I’ll stick to my diesel and my next one will be a turbo diesel, but I’m only talking about a hilux, so I don’t have the weight of a landcrusier/patrol around town. It will be a very interesting debate. Lets all just remember that every one is entitled to there own opinion. Take Care Vitara

Signman,

It all boils down to which suits your usage and your pocket. I went through through the deliberations but Toyota made it easier by not offering a TD in the configuration I wanted anyway. So I ended up with a petrol Hilux. I've done the calculations on my mileage figures using Toyota's 'expected' fuel usage for a petrol vs diesel and allowed a price differential of $0.10/l for fuel.

The end result after applying those figures to twelve months of data was I paid $175.36 more in fuel for a petrol unit compared to a diesel. This would probably have been more than exceeded by diesel service costs ( I may be corrected there by someone more knowledgeable). Of course you still have to add the higher initial price of a diesel compared to a petrol unit.

As per my first sentence, different strokes for different folks.

Regards

Signman,

Other than those things mentioned, the other thing you have to take into account is longevity.
Due to the lubricating properies of diesel and the better thermal efficiencies, Diesels go forever. So if you happen to get a diesel engine with the characteristics of the TD42 (Patrol 4.2 engine) or similar, you are looking at many years of service without being touched and without loosing efficiency (compression, oil consumption etc).
Other diesels need some maintenance such as timing belts, chains etc which could put a dent in the budget.
It would be very hard to get 600-700 thousand kms out of a petrol engine without some kind of repairs or overhaul, yet diesels can get one million kms easy without ever being touched...
The caterpillar engine used in the jackaroo was a particularly bad engine full of teething problems on a new trial technology (injection system) (at least new in the automotive market)...

All that off course doesn't apply if you are intending to replace the vehicle every three years or so.
Will

Its no longer a case of saying the Diesel is better then a Petrol. For some that will still be the case , but not all.

Eg for the Nissans. The Diesel 4.2 is about $6k dearer then a Petrol. the 3.0TD is about the same price as the Petrol.

The Price of Diesel is more expensive then Petrol , but , greater economy and range.

The price of servicing is usually more with a diesel then petrol.

If you are looking at something relatively short term (eg leasing for 3 or 4 years) , Petrol would in a lot of cases come out in front.

the longer it goes though , the Diesel comes well back into it.

I believe the Yota is a bigger price difference then the Nissans , but something like the Trashcans , the price between the Diesel and Petrol is bugger all.

Diesels are no longer Low Tech , most dont like water splashed around too much.

It all comes back to the individual , and THEIR requirements , and the costs for them.

For me at present , my Petrol Patrol does me fine. Granted , its thirsty , but , considering an LPG conversion to try and soften that a bit. I can tow my CT on the speed limit anywhere I please , and still have plenty for overtaking. I dont at present plan to do any Outback touring , so range isn't the biggest thing.

2 things though, I DIDN'T have a choice when I bought mine. The specs I wanted, Auto, Dual Air , meant I ONLY could buy a Ti Petrol Patrol. There IS more of a choice now (ST-S , and ST-L).

In the future , I may well look at a Diesel. the Diesel Trashcans interest me greatly.

If I had of found a good one , I would have bought a TD Bishi Delica.

im sure the petrol v diesel has never been done before... :)

There was a great article on this very issue in a recent Australian 4x4 monthly mag.. only 1 or 2 months ago. Would probably still be at the newsagents. Dont have it with me, but it does bleep ter a few myths, based on facts and figures. Both fuels have their pro's and con's. If your only concern is cost, then it probably comes down to which vehicle you are looking to buy and if it is Brand New or 2nd hand. For example, the comparison of running costs between a new TD 100 series GXL and the Petrol GXL showed that despite the big advantage in fuel comsumption that the TD had, the service costs and initial purchase price were much higher. The numbers were crunched and the outcome was that if you went with the TD 100 series GXL you would need to clock up about 350,000kms before you started to get an advantage over the Petrol model. Keep in mind that is based on brand new vehicles. Of the vehicles they surveyed, the Patrol 3.0ltr TD was the only one (I think) that had a running cost advantage, from new. Best thing would be to find a copy of the mag. Was an interesting article.

Too complex an issue to get my thoughts across without attracting undue criticism by some nork-head.

I have diesel 4WD's because I like to have adequate fuel range and tractability over rough stuff - no other reason.

I think you could also inject the LPG elment into this debate.
If most of your work does not involved exetended outback touring, IMHO, LPG turns the tables in favour of petrol donks, even with all all the known downsides. That said my next vehicle will be a diesel for extended outback touring.
You would also need to check out what the fed's LPG tax plans are. I recall that they were thinking of penalising LPG to prop up Menildra (pro liberal Ethonol producers).

I know you are talking new but when I was looking 2nd hand I didnt even consider a petrol, for an 80 series there is little difference in price between the 2 and with many petrol examples struggling to better 20l per hundred and easily capable of 25 - 30 off road. Add to this the 1hz legendaruy reliability and the choice makes itself. (city users might find the extra go of the petrol attractive - but i dont live in the city)

Allways had petrol and or petrol / lpg ,now have turbo diesel 80series , my usage time / milage wise has not changed , fuel x litres has lessend by 20-25% , servicing costs up by less than 5% [save bulk doing it youself rather than an Lpg tech] ,,diesel available everywhere unlike lpg and ulp [can,t sniff diesel ], better or I should say smoother towing power delivery ,.

Cmon diesel fans

what about - they sound tuff, truck like
- you can idle uphill in 1st with a camper trailer
- you can handle, store and transport fuel more safely
- some remote places only have diesel
- you can pull away over that last bit of dune in 3rd low 700 rpms
- Intercooler bonnet scoops look cool, especially on my Jackaroo
- lower exhaust temperature means less chance of spinifex fires

Yeh, go the diesel even if they are louder, smellier and less powerfull!

D-Jack

Hello All

When considering the economics of fuel some lateral thinking helps . Every time I fill my petrol guzzling Disco [ 16 lts/100km ] , I smile when I see the cost has gone up because I know that the cost increase means I am getting the fuel for nothing . It works like this ;

1 I am old , and therefor with only moderate care and effort I own my own house , have investment real estate , super , and investments in share managed trusts . Part of the share trusts equate to savings for major unforseeable emergencies , which if not used will be passed onto the children .Some of these shares are in OIL .

2 Therefore , I own part of the companies that are putting the fuel into the bowser , and that is even better than owning part of an oil well . The capital value of the oil company rises with the price of their product and their income which is partly paid to me in dividends also rises .

3 I have not lost anything by tying some of my money up in the oil shares because I had to invest for the savings benefit , and seeing as how I was committed to buying petrol it made sense to devote some share income to that end .

4 But the major point is that I have HEDGED against fuel rises . Whenever the cost of fuel goes up , I am covered .

5 How much did I have to invest to cover my fuel bill? How long is a piece of string . But consider this , $20,000 invested in Colonial First State - Global Rescources Fund on 1/07/2005 would have a capital value today of about $25,000 and income would be separately paid end of SEP. Bad example because it is measuring from a trough to a peak but you get the idea .

6 Do I get the feeling that I am benefitting from other people's misfortune - not really , fuel prices are subject to supply and demand and at least my investment goes someway to meeting the demand .

Hi Signman,
I have a 3.0LTD GU Patrol.
Opted for diesel for three reasons:
1. Improved range in the bush.
2. Less volatile than petrol. Safer to transport and handle.
3. Petrol can't be carried into some parts of the 'outback'.

On the face of it I use about 11 ltrs per 100 kms. Keeping in mind that most of the Patrol's speedo's are overstating actual speed/distance by 10%, the real figures would be closer to 12L/100K.
Skeptics would say Nissan overstate the speedo readings to make economy look better and to effectively reduce the warranty period. Fitting 75 series tyres would probably correct this. But those are other issues...

On the downside:
- I'm not familiar with diesels. If anything goes wrong with the engine in the bush I'll probably be stuck.
- There's often only 1 or 2 diesel bowsers at garages. Can end up waiting for access to the pump.
- The area around the bowsers is generally filthy from spills. The nozzles usually have diesel all over them. End up diesel and grime on your soles and diesel on your hands. Not that easy to clean up.

Regards,

signman

6 out of the first seven replies to your thread raised the question of fuel economics.I addressed that in a way which could simplify the decision down to factors of reliability , offroad performance , and on road performance .Was my arguement too esoteric for you ?

Signman...

Did you end up going away with Connie? If so, where did you end up going?

Did she rememberCar 3 to Connie?

Cheers

Wolfie

Hi All,

My brother and I recently did a run from North NSW to Bundaberg Qld and compared running costs. We have identical 80 series Landcruisers but his is a 4.5 litre Petrol/Gas version and I have a 1hz diesel with aftermarket turbo.

We both left Murwillumbah with full tanks and although he had to fill up with LPG at the half way mark, the total cost on arrival in Bundaberg was dearer for my diesel by $1.26. That's close enough for me over about 600km.

The bigger difference though is that my diesel has an overall range of about 1200 km but his dual fuel really only has a range of about 400 km on the LPG and it is way too expensive to run on unleaded.

With higher fuel costs I must admit that this time I was very tempted to go back to a dual fuel vehicle but I know that every time I load up and head on a long run to the west or the gulf I will always be kicking myself if I didn't have a diesel. I really just don't like the idea of bulldust and water somehow finding their way to a computer or sensor somewhere for the engine management system in a petrol and being stranded because of that. I know the new diesels aren't quite as basic as the old ones but maybe I am old fashioned, I will e sticking with diesel for a while yet.

Cheers,
Brett