question about 4x4 etiquette

In a heartbeat. I'd also offer them some $$ for their troubles. Mind you I'd never take $ off anyone I helped, as it would of made my day.

Hello Boc1971,
I'd make some form of offer to the guy with the broken strap. If the strap broke it was either old or not up to the job so wouldn't be looking to 100% replacement.
Did the strap break before or after the HUAD was extracted? With an attitude and preparation like that you're going to spend some time bogged.
The bogged tool was right in one respect, no one had to help him. I hate people with that attitude.

Geoff.

G'day Boc1971
Shove him back into the bog with the bullbar.

There's too much of that sort of attitude in the world today.

Safe tavells
Jim-Bob

Goes without saying - you'd do the rightie of course.

If some prick did that to me, I'd.......well, there's no limit the possibilities. Remember, he's stuck and you're not!

Some folks just don't get it. I went out of my way a while back to help some clown who'd completelt bogged his brand new Prado on the beach, at night, below the high tide line with his two kids in the car. I had 3 blokes on hourly rate (OT too) with me and we got him out after about an half an hour.

'Ta mate' and drove off. Anyway, hopefully running on 12PSi stuffed his tyres on the way home as he didn't hang around for me to pump them back up. I didn't want anything, just maybe an offer of a beer for the boys or even a real 'thankyou' for saving his new rig.

It’s a tuff one, as whenever you stop to give someone a hand you are always putting you Ass on the line.

If it were an old strap, I probably would not expect them to pay for it or put up towards a new one as the thing was probably stuffed anyway but it would be nice for them to offer. Then when you look at it, it has saved you a headache, as the next time you use it, It may have been to recover you 4WD and it would of failed then.

However if it was a new or near new strap and it went “bang” I would be expecting some form of compensation if not a new strap.

At the same time if you stop and give them a hand/ snatch and there car is damaged in the proses what then is the protocol??. I would call it bad luck and just a part of 4Wding; say some encouraging words and move on/ continue to assist if you can, if the recovery was done correctly and safely offcourse.

If you were knowingly negligent in your operation I think then it would be a different story and you would be partly if not fully responsible.

A few years ago, we came across a German Tourist who had somehow managed to bog his hired Kia Sportage on an easy sand track leaving Kingfisher on Fraser Island. Tyre pressure was too high I suspect as we were in 2wd and travelling fine. Anyway, a lot of vehicles who were coming off the barge were behind us and they were all stopped. From the other direction, just as many trying to get to the return barge. We were in a troopy and in a good position to pull him out. Another driver who was heading for the barge had already taken his strap out to try and help him, but he decided we were in a better position to extract the visitor. he made the mistake of letting the tourist attatch the strap himself. We were silly enough not to see what he had done. He tied it in a knot... so we pull him out easy enough. take off the strap our end, to find the knot locked tight, impossible to remove at his end. It eventually had to be cut. Not a n offer of compensation, nor even a mention of thanks. Nothing. The guy who lost his strap was forced to move on, as he had about 12 vehicles behind him, keen to make the barge. At least it helped to clear the track for all I guess. Wont stop me from helping anyone again though. Just will make sure things are done correctly. I wouldnt let a bad experience like that, stop you from helping people who are mostly decent.

I have helped some over the years and others,.......well you have to make an assessment on the spot. Don't have a strap and don't use my winch to pull others out unless we come to some agreement.

I would say that if you insisted on helping someone then the onus is on you to repair your own breakages and not expect someone else to cover your misfortune.

A Club in Darwin(wont mention name) went out on a wet day. Bloke with 100 series became bogged and another member also in a 100series said No Worries will snatch you out. He attached the snatch strap to the towbar(Hayman Reece extension) with a bow shackle and all but did not notice that the extension pin on the towbar had just about fallen out(a common thing if you arent diligent). First snatch and the towball and slide-on extension ripped out of the towbar at speed, hit the bonnet of the 100, then hit the widscreen, smashing it and bouncing harmeless ly into the scrub missing all bystanders. I think the insurance paid out.

Best to always try other methods before resorting to using your own gear.

Boc1971,
I helped someone who was going over the edge of a sand dune once, his front wheel went over and the vehicle bottomed out, couldn't go either way, stuck. He jumped out and got his strap out attached to the back of his vehicle and the front of mine, I attempted a reverse type snatch as I started to move back and gained a bit of momentum the slack was taken out of the strap, my vehicle came to an earth bleep tering stop which damaged my front recovery point and bent my chassis point a smidgen. We both got out to check things over, I found he didn't know the difference between a snatch strap and a tow strap.
The moral behind this for me is that if you use your own gear at least you know it's the right gear so if things go right everything will be OK. If you use other peoples gear you just don't know what condition it's in or even if it's the right gear. Yes I would stop but the experience I now gained over the years I think I might mention some ground rules first briefly, it's worth the time to do this and also assess the situation a bit at least. Saying that in the heat of the moment with a line of car behind you it would be hard to do.
My experiences and opinions as usual.

I'd have no hesisation in coughing up $ for any damage but what can you do when the situation is reversed and you're left out of pocket...kick em in the nuts and be on your way.

I have ruined two straps helping others .. never needed one for my own recovery. On both occasions no offer of "can I get you another strap" ... only one said thanks.

Simple now .. if you don't have your own strap, I don't snatch. But .. having said that I would not leave someone in the middle of somewhere like the Canning without help .. but if you are a backpacker on Fraser ... well, you figure it out.

Jack

I'd have to replace his strap whether it was old or not. Not everyone will give you a hand when you need it. That's just me :)

When I've been stuck and needed help, I've always offered more then expected (I hope), if I don't have the money or beer I ask if I can post then a gift for there kindness. Most often they refuse. (I do keep my word unlike some.)
Myself I'd atleast hope that one would offer the expenses of the recovery, I most often refuse the offer. A smile and a thank you is payment . It's just nice when someone apperciates your assistants.
I look at it as cheap insurance as it sometimes it can be a long walk and the price of a professionial recovery is quite expensive.
On top of it all I find saving a vechicle (mine or someone elses) the highlight of a trip.

I'm from Nevada in the states and some years ago I signed on as a volunteer for the Bureau of Land Management in the Black Rock Desert area. This desert is a near perfectly flat dry lake bed and when it is dry you can go pretty much as fast as your vehicle is capable and your courage allows. The land speed record and sound barrier were made there a few years back.

BUT when it is wet it is slicker than snot and blinds your treads immediately. When you walk on it wet you get taller with every step. There are springs wetting much of the perimeter and I found myself getting someone out of potentially lethal circumstances on a regular basis. It is fairly close to pavement so it gets more than its share of potential victims.

My rescues were "gifts" and the nature of a gift is that there is nothing expected in return. The gratitude of those that I rescued far outweighed the having to deal with the occassional a$$hole. As far as equipment, I consider my equipment and its use is my responsibility. If there is property damage or personal injury resulting from its use, that is also my responsibility. I don't know about Oz but in the states I think the courts would tend to take the same attitude.

But, courts be dammed. I like to play with my toys and using them for some good justifies their cost. In my mind, at least, and I don't have a wife so I don't have to deal with that. :-)

I think it comes down to education. Most people who have a 4wd are reasonably knowledgeable when it comes to 4wd recovery situations and realise how much recovery equipment costs and what damage can occur either accidentally or by missuse of this equipment.
If it was me I would throw in the $$$ for the guy to buy a new stap because I'm aware of what can happen.
Its a difficult call to not help someone because you may not be reimbursed for damage incurred to your equipment or vehicle but last year we came across a Patrol that rolled on it's roof. It was in the middle of the track and for the life of me can't see how it happened. They wanted us to winch it back onto it's wheels. What do you do? Burn out your winch trying to help?? Fortunately there were no trees to chain the back of our patrol to so we could winch. It can get $$$$ helping people sometimes. In the end a 4x4 recovery truck came to their aid.

Leroy

I did the Bloomfield Track a couple of times in the 90's and on the Northern side of the Bloomfield River sat a bloke in an old Toyota Ute.

He'd sit there all day waiting for people to get stuck. As they did he'd wander into the river and offer to rescue them.............for $100. They didn't want to get wet, nor let water into their cars by opening the doors, so they paid him. The fact that the Bloomfield is Croc infested also seemed to have an influence.

Years ago we could always rely on getting a tow or push from the grader if we got stuck with trucks.
One day, along time ago a new bloke got stuck out in the channel country, both trailers and PM down to the axles. Anyway along comes the grader,driver of leaps out, has a bit of a look and says to the T/driver,grab a couple of chains and we'll see if we can get you outa there. End result was truck still stuck but now minus bullbar and other assorted bits and pieces,
Truck driver then tries to sue the council for the damage etc.
Mind you the grader driver spent the best part of a day helping this bloke and all he ended up with was a kick in the a-se and instructions not to help anyone for any reason again.
If you looked at where he was and what he had on you would soon work out why he was out where he was. Only about 30 ton over.
That sort of attitude doesn't help anybody.When I got stuck halfway between Winton & Cloncurry I got quoted about $2000 to get me out of a mudhole that shouldn't have been there.
The same thing happened when I got stuck on a track about 100 k's north of Boulia.The local cocky told me to ---- off so I ended up walking about 15k's to where the drill rig was and getting them to come out the next day.

Leave nothing but footprints and take nothing but photos
Cabbage

We help anyone in trouble and hope anyone would help us if we needed help. Always worked that way in the country, and it is sad that our world is changing. We rarely get any payment for putting our last can of petrol into to a car that has run out, but feel OK about helping because it could be me.

My relatives farmed across the river from us when i was young, and their house was near a summer only river crossing. How many fools got stuck on such a quiet road, with such an obvious hazard was unbelievable. After losing valuable seeding time and cost using his tractor to pull them out, my uncle would sometimes say no to the dozenth or so victim and go on with his farming; he could not stop and help people who had got themselves into trouble through their own foolish mistakes all day.

I hope the people you have all helped have learned from the experience, and drive with more care in future. With a bit of luck, those who have been less than gracious may need to help someone else some day and justice may prevail.

Insist on using my own gear, unless I'm out with mates. Never accepted more than a beer for my efforts but would insist on paying for anyone elses gear(should it be required) damaged recovering me.

Quite a few years ago we were in Francis Peron NP near Monkey Mia. This is a 4WD only NP, sandy tracks etc but also a lot of birridas (salt pans). As you drive into the park there's a big sign saying "Stay Off the Birridas, YOU WILL GET BOGGED". Down the track a bit there's two 80 series LC bogged deeper than the running boards in a birrida. Turns out these guys had come across another vehicle bogged on the birrada, one went to the rescue and got bogged so his mate in the othe LC got involved. He managed to get the first vehicle out who promptly drove off without staying around to help his first would-be rescuer. By the time we happened along both LC's were hopelessly bogged and were only freed when a local (who'd obviously seen it all before) got involved and using our two vehicles pulling in tandem and a long rope so we didn't have to drive on the birrada ourselves and plenty of bods pushing, we managed to free them.

On our recent trip up north we used our satphone to make a series of phone calls to arrange a tow for a stranded car and caravan. Satphone calls aren't cheap and the grateful couple didn't hesitate to offer us some cash to cover the costs. Truth is we never discussed money before we made the calls and we were happy to help out despite the cost. But it sure feels nice when people do the right thing.

:o) Melissa

You come across all types of personalities when helping someone who is stuck.

My worst experience was snatching a bogged vehicle off the beach. He had the usual full road pressures and wouldn't let them down. Was inclined to leave him due to his attitude, but his wife and two kids were worried so unwrapped a brand new snatch strap and after giving some instructions, recovered him. He then proceeded to drive up to my rear bumper and wrap the strap several times around his front wheel and damage it severely. He simply watched as I tried to remove the strap, said a simple thanks and drove off before I had even packed my gear away.

Luckily this is not the norm, had some German tourists (older couple) wave a fistful of $100 notes as payment after a very simple snatch recovery of their bogged hire van. Refused to take any payment, but could have literally made 1,000's (don't think they realised what denomination notes they were).

Most common payment from strangers has been the offer of a beer (never refused that!) and even had a carton delivered to my home once several days later.

But if the situation was reversed, would not hesitiate to offer to pay for any damage to someone else's gear, regardless of initial condition.

While there will always be the odd "user" out there, the vast majority of people do the right thing when you help them and I would not hesitiate to assist anyone who needs it - one day it may be me needing the help!!!

Cheers

Captain

In my mind it's plain and simple...if you don't have an extra $50 or whatever in your pocket to give someone if they help you out of the mistake you made. (your the only one to blame if you get stuck and oncomming crest/blind traffic is not involved).

Anyone who gets help from someone they dont know, someone who took time out of their trip to help, you should return the gestue regardless. If you dont .... YOU SHOULD NOT BE ON THE bleep ING TRACK TO BEGIN WITH!!

Having some extra cash/beer/bud/whatever in your pocket is the same thing as having a snatch or winch...it part of "recovery gear" and if your don't got it...DON"T GO OUT!

Range rover bogged on beach.
Hilux trying to pull it out.
Hilux burns cluch out.
Eric then goes and help.
Get hilux of beach.
Then range rover.
Range rover then drives of.
We then ring NRMA to rescue Hilux.
Hilux out of pocket a few grand.

All the best
Eric

One aspect of being the rescuer is that the rescuee is a captive audience. I usually take advantage of the situation to educate the rescuee on the error of his/her ways, the tone and nature of said lesson being dependent upon my assessment of the attitude of the student.

More often than not the rescuee does all of the work (part of his/her lesson!) while I keep my hands clean, wave my arms, inspect attachment points, etc. The student also learns how to clean gear, coil cable, stow it properly, etc. I am usually posititioned such that the student doesn't get to leave until the lesson is over.

That being said, I'm a sucker for a lady with a smile and when the rescuee has these qualities I'm the bloke standing beside the track covered in mud and she's the one driving away with clean hands.

I've been in a similar situation, out the back of Perth in some swamp land. It was the kind of area people would go to get bogged and learn all about recovery techniches.

Anyway, one day me and my mate came across a Surf nicely bogged. This particular surf did not appear to have any recovery points on the front, and I mentioned to the guys that I could try the bull bar - but made it quiet clear that it would be most likely damaged in the process They agreed to give it a go and the bar did end up being damaged (but not too badly). After a few goes I failed to snatch the Surf out and turned around to go home to pick up a decent jack and other equipment to help the guy out - except I got stuck my self driving out.

We ended up calling my mates boss to rescue me and the Surf. He pulled me out in his 75 series ute, but blew up his muffler in the process (backfire). When it happend I certainly apologised to the guy, and showed remorse, but I did not offer to pay for a new muffler (he knew the car was running like a dog before it happened).

At the end of the day, I did buy the guy a Carton of Crownies (which I felt guilty about as he was bit of an alco in the first place) for his time and effort of pulling me and the Surf out. They guys in the Surf were also nice enough to put some money towards the beer...

I think being grateful for being recovered is important, and offering to pay for any damage that might reasonably expect to occur (like a broken snatch strap) is reasonable. Any more damage due to poor mainteance, or technique on beahlf of the recovery vehicle should be the responsibility of the rescue-er.

Never should the recovery person be liable for damage to the rescuee. However, the recovery person should has the responsibility to take the time to explain the risks to the rescuee - before any damage is done.

I picked up a German tourist once when he had a flat tyre................on his push bike!!! He said he had mapped the shortest route out on the map but didn't realise one of his chosen roads was a shockingly bad dirt road. He didn't have any tyre repair gear and it was the middle of the day in a Queensland Summer. After I drove him all the way to his destination (not far out of my way) he opened his wallet which must ave had about $500 in it and offered me cash but I refused.

Another one was my friends fourby stuck on the beach. Wasn't too stuck so a bunch of us and some other guys we didn't know gave it a push and he was on his way. Problem was that one of the unknowns managed to put a big dent in the back of his fourby by pushing in a weak spot. My mate however just copped it on the chin as the guy was only trying to help.

I pulled a Prado out of the same spot a year or so later. There was about 7 people in it and none of them got out as we set up the snatch. The guy was running hway pressures so I said he wouldn't have gotten stuck if he lowered his tyres. He said that he didn't want to drop them as then he would have to raise them later. I followed him a bit further and he got stuck again so I drove up to his window and told him to lower his pressures and get his friends to push him out. Then kept driving. I don't mind helping people so long as they try to help themselves.

have been going to mt dissapointment on a regular basis lately.

have come across many people stuck and in some case's really stressed.

yesterday was airing up at 5 ways as the hail fell, i saw to fellas jogging along. i thinks to myself god they are keen jogging in this weather.
as they came closer i saw cargo pants not tracky bottoms so think oh dear they are in trouble.

sure enough please mate can you help us we have bogged out hilux a coulpe of k's back down a track.

he told me the story and said if i didnt wish to help he would understand cos the track was farly rough.

so i tell them to get in andoff we go.
no recovery gear had teh hilux 2 days and still at road pressure.

got to the hilux they had buried it to its axels in the bog hole, so out with teh snatch and a quick chat about the recovery to takeplace.

had them out in a few pulls ( didnt want to hit it full on)

they followed me out and thanked me, they flashed me at whittlesea so i pull over and one comes and talks to me about what club im in and is it local.
the other wipes in the bottle shop and hands me a 6 pac of jim beams.

told them its not required and they said its ok as they wanted to buy me a drink.

well thats the only one that has ever bought me a drink and they all say they want to join a club and i say its the safest thing they will ever do.

gra

Some great stories :-)

On the 4x4 course I did earlier in the year the teacher gave this advise:
1. Never use your own gear, its too expensive.
2. If they haven't got their own gear/rated recover point, thats their fault, its harsh but let them sort it out themselves.
No point in risking your own gear and vehicle because of someone else's bad luck/stupidity (at not having their vehicle setup right for what they're doing).
That said, never leave someone at risk if you can help them.

Sortof a contradiction there. I can't say I agree 100% but certainly if there's a risk you need to talk about it with them first and come up with a plan. Taking something for your troubles isn't the same as profiteering and frankly if the person you are helping doesn't understand what "doing the right thing" is then you need to lay it out for them.

My basic rule is that my actions shouldn't affect anyone else negatively. If what I've done costs someone (and I don't mean just cash) its my duty to put it right.
Thats the essence (IMO) of what laws were created for, and the basic principle of community.
Someone does you a favour and if they won't let you pay them back then pay it forward to the next person you find yourself in the position to help.

While I am on my soap box:
My definition of being free in a free country is that I am free to do what I like as long as I take responsibility for my actions and that my actions do not impact negatively on others. You add that to the golden rule (Do as you would be done by) and barring random acts of nature, everything should all work out fine.

:-)