latest 4WD death

I've got to say that I dont disagree with mods no matter how radical as long as they fall within the guidlines (whatever they may be) but that Hilux has nothing protecting anyone from all the hardware below the grill line and under the front.

Years ago I had my old Holden defected for having no bumper bars on it.
(I was in the middle of repainting it at the time and didn't know it was illegal not to have them on)

I asked the cop why it was illegal and he said it's because of the extra damage it can do to life and property

We'll never stop serious injury and deaths from car accidents but IMO we CAN all do our bit to minimise the impact of one by making sure our vehicles are within safety guidelines.

I will be interested to see the outcome of the roadworthy check of the Hilux

Associate Professor Raphael Grzebieta must be related to Albert Einstein, if a 4WD is not a small tuck or a piece of machinery, then what the hell is it?

No wonder we get bad press whe you see these over modified pieces of !#@$ on a public road.

I can see their place in extreme 4WD sports event, but please look at it...how on earth could anyone see a child run onto the road with the vehicle that high with a blind spot to the front similar to that of a Mack.

The majority of responsible 4WD owners are just that even with some slight modifications. But when you see a photo like that well we're all doomed.

I see no problem with banning vehicles like the one pictured. A recent acticle in the RACQ magazine highlighted how some height (and they were talking about cars going too low as well) may be illegal. I can't tell me that Hilux has a engineers certificate.

Wizard
Prado TD
Gold Coast

Wizard. Have you ever sat in a modded truck like that, and seen first hand?? No doesnt sound like it either.

If the kid ran out infront of anything it would have hit him. God forbid it happening to anyone, but even a Hiace van, or a Smart Car would have been in the same boat. What if the driver DID see him, he obviously didnt have time to do anything or they would have charged him in micro seconds.

So, in reality what you are saying is Ban anything bigger than a Playdo wihch is the limit of your comfort level? Cause your sayin' Mack Trucks are too big, and Hilux's are - so we must ban anythin bigger than your comfort level..

Why wouldnt that Hilux have an engineers certificate? Mine has one for an 8inch lift + bigger tires and I know of dozens of others that do...

Truckster, you must know a lot about me to think I drive a Prado because thats is the limit of my comfort level....I won't bore you with the variety of vehicles I have driven, quite comfortably all over the world.

Suffice as to say that comments like yours are typical of supporters of this type of vehicle....

To end this once and for all, ask the REAL questions.

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Where was the parental supervision?

Who in thier right mind would let a small child run loose near a major road?
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*****The mother/guardian should be charged with manslaughter.*****

Wizzard1, if you feel that srongly about it, sell your Prado and get a car.

The vehicles that are modified are no more of a danger in a straight line on a bitumen road than any other vehicle. As for visability, we can see further in front of us than the average car can, and in doing so give earlier notice via our more visible high mount stop lights to vehicles behind us. A normal cars visibility of stoplamps disappears after the 3-4th car, we can see clearly 8-10 cars or to the next high vehicle 100 metres away.

Have you ever seen anyone crushed under a passenger vehicle after being hit? A 300mm thick human under a vehicle with 150mm clearance does a pretty damned good job at "pancaking" the human body. At least vehicles that have more clearance will allow you to be run over with somewhat less "degloving" trauma (skin being peeled off like a glove), and the generally larger tyres will exert less lb/sq in pressure on anything that is run over. (macarbe honesty...)

As a point of reference the Icelandic 4WD with the really huge tyres can safely run over a person lying on the ground.

Doesn't anyone else around here smell TROLL

To highlight Gary in Oz's comments,
I was in a shop in our local shopping centre today where there is angle parking out the front. I watched a car reverse into a spot, no problems.

The rear door opens and a little girl of about 5 yo jumps out followed by one of about 7 years. This got my attention being a parent. The problem is that there was a van reversing into the spot next to them, and where was mum? fixing her lippy and hair so she would look good when she went shopping of course.

Fortunately the van driver saw what was happening and stopped in time but then he had to wait with nose stuck out in the middle of traffic until the kids shut the door. Mum was completely oblivious to it all, just living in her own little world. This woman had control of 4 little girls and still now has no idea how lucky she is to still have them.

I wanted to scream at her, i was sooooo peed off but it would have done no good, no-one was hurt so where's the problem? I would just be told to mind my own business.

PARENTS have to take the responsibilty for their children in public, it's part of the job description.
DRIVERS are expected to take all care as part of the privilege of driving on public roads. That's just a given. The system falls down because we are human beings and when one or the other fails then we have an accident and people can be killed by a pushbike or a mack truck when the right circumstances prevail.

Waynepd, if you aree referring to me, let me tell you I am a Registered Nurse in Intensive Care, and have also worked in enough A&E's to reasonably make those observations and comments.

In general pedestrians hit by trucks and busses usually fare better than those hit by cars. They tend to go under the trucks (Madeline West), and get thrown over the cars....there is usually enough room under a truck for them not to be hit by anything else under the vehicle. With cars they tend to get thown up and over, or get rolled by the floorpan under the car.

No Gary you were not the troll, unfortunately the followups just land after the previous one and cannot be aimed where needed....

Wizard you are spot on for us that have slightly moddified trucks all these other clowns are giving us a bad name.
As you said we are going to be doomed.
We will all go under the same banner.
If one needs some moster truck like that that they must be laking in somthing else.
As I have said many times on this forum after they have been out in the bush It makes you embarised to belong to the 4wd community.
As some one else says go hard or go home.
I say take it easy and let others enjoy.

All the best
Eric

Appears to be running ~33-35"'s (from wheel track and wheel rim comparison, normal is ~31") on a vehicle that is about 6'4" feet tall (looking at the police, about the same as the height of a standard LC). Modifications appear to be a modest spring lift, and tyres all in all ~4-5" or so.

The reason it looks so tall is twofold, The shot appears to be taken from about waist level looking up slightly (perspective analysis in MS Paint), and Hiluxes are normally narrow, tall vehicles anyway.

The picture is also affected by the removal of the front bumperbar.

[ View Image]

Your absolutely right Guzzi about the impulsive behaviour of young children. I'm disgusted that there are people from both sides of the fence trying to use this tradgedy to push their point. fact is a little boy is dead. Happened to be a Mod'd 4b that hit him. could have been a corolla. Would have probably made little difference. He was too small to get thrown over any vehicle. Horrible but true. I pick up children from schools every day with my job, and I know just how unpredictable they are. I can never drive slow enough. Spare a thought for the boys family. Spare a though also for the driver... could just as easily be any single one of you...

sorry gramps i thought srubby got a mention he did in the herald sun as usual we should all be waling

steve

must agree though the poor little bugger it didnt matter what came down the road
nearly had 1 myself today d head about 16 shot across the front of a tram and i nearly had him hewas running the red light while the tram stopped
just as well 4bs have good brakes

I had to read the article again just in case I missed a mention of Scruby. My subconscious takes over these days and blocks any recognition of that fool. Helps to keep my temper on a reasonably even keel.

Glad you did'nt have to go through any "pain". We often forget it is not only the pedestrian who suffers in these accidents. Imagine how the driver of the Hilux feels.

Its unfortunate that we have to find somebody to blame. No one gets out of these things unscathed.

If he didnt have the facts of the story he should have just said I dont know, so I cant comment. and each time he asked the same question he should have answered the same.

Agree Brian, Despite the very best of intentions by the various 4wd Assoc Presidents, they are not media savvy and do not come across as well as they should in these situations.
A well briefed and "media aware" designated person would certainly help balance the view.

Maybe something that 4wd Australia should be working on.

"A well briefed and "media aware" designated person"

Agree John. The 4wd fraternity suffer the same as the shooting fraternity. The main office bearers are all hardworking, well intentioned, dedicated people but they do not have the media savvy or presence that is required to fight the anti-everything-I'm-not-interested-in brigade.

we as 4wd drivers must except the blame for the movments lack of professionalism , when it comes to our representitive bodies we quick to critisie & slow to help .
i have met few 4wd drivers who are willing to either put in the time or at least put in enough money to make our represntive bodies profesional

Bruce.h,

Pointing out a simple fact is not necessarily a criticism. Brian B's query re why the 'personalities' who make a living out of the 4wd fraternity are not more vocal in defending it, is understandable. The shooting fraternity via the SSAA have been trying for years to get some of the well known participants to take a higher profile in defending the pastime against the anti's. Unfortunately neither group has met with much success.

Spending money on a PR campaign featuring Neville Nobodies is not going to help either cause. We live in the age of 'celebrities'. If you have'nt got them, you get ignored.

Gramps
a neville nobody trained in media & speaking who is well versed in the 4wd issues will not stay a nobody for long, if that was the case harold scruby would have got nowhere. the media are less interested in having hacks to interview as the public are to listening to them.
you will not get those with high profiles who rely on the media to promote themselfs risking their image by getting involved in politics of our recreation it is not in their interest , unfortunatly the politics of 4wding has to be faught by a politicaly savy trained person, as even i high profile 4wd still can be run around to look bad when they do not have the luxury of a second take or an editor

Bruce,

I agree. The problem is it takes so long for that type of person to build an image and establish any sort of credibility. But the sooner we start the sooner we will see less of Scruby and his mob.

Someone who is into 4WD's, touring etc.
Well known and liked by the general non-4wding public.
Sounds like Glenn Ridge to me. (no, not the guy that plays Russell Coight, the one from the old Sale of the Century)
It needs someone of that calibre. One who doesn't look like a rough-as-guts redneck and is well spoken and media aware.....
I don't suppose anyone here happens to know him do they??
We probably couldn't afford his appearance fee anyway.

Waynepd,

Most of us rough-as-guts rednecks would tend to agree with your selection. The approach would have to come from the main 4wd association(s), of course, and as you and Bruce.h said they probably cannot afford it.

A few years ago today tonight interveiwed an editer from a well known mothley 4wd mag that comes out a year in advance.
It didnt help the cause.

All the best
Eric

nobody ever said the vehicle went straight over the child. the child may have run into the side of the vehicle and been run over by the rear wheel as is often the case in these incidents. that would explain why the driver didn't see the child and was found not at fault....? its not all black and white

That may be true, but if your watching where your going and knowing whats going on around then perhaps, just perhaps, this horrific accident may have been avoided. We are all guilty of not fully concentrating while driving and I defy any one on this forum to prove otherwise. Accidents like these tend to make us review ouot driving habits.

As black and white, Id rather see black and blue from brusing to the child then blood and guts over the road as the mud terrains exploded the skin cells and internal organs of that poor child over the road at south windsor. Having said that dunlops on a small passenger would have the same effect.

Regardless of wether the vehicle went straight over the child or bounced off, the end result is unfortunately the same.

If you want more graphic pictures of accidents like this I would only be to happy to show you from the countless road accidents Ive attended. Regardless of the size or type of car the basic equations here have proven themselves again with tragic consequnces :

flesh vs steel = steel wins
child versus steel = steel wins
parent taking eyes of child = potential for disaster

I guess 'simple' the way your looking at it is that noone is to blame and its just more road kill. Don't worry the paint etc from where the investigators have left there mark will fade a lot quicker then that of the emotional changes to all those involved, its not only those driving and supervising the child, but the witnesses, and our brave emergency services personel.

Your comment indicates to me that you think you shouldnt blame the driver or the mother. Well quite frankly I couldnt give a stuff whose to blame. Its not for you or me to decide.

We have state coroners who can work things like this out, but also a little thing called a conscience.

Either party involved can answer their own conscience.

brad, well it appears that you, like myself are a member of the emergency services so i'm sure you'd understand my declining of the offer of those pictures, the images in my memory are quite enough for me thanks (though if you do have so many maybe you could pass some on to the various training sections) though i'm not quite sure where the suggestion of photo's came into this.
my comment was simply in response to yours highlighting that the accident may not have been due to lack of driver attention as you suggest, rather that it may have been hard to see the child if the impact occured behind the drivers position or even below the bonnet level on the passenger side.
i aggree that most accidents occur due to driver error/lack of attention/stupidity. however i don't like to act like the media and play the blame game without knowing all the facts
"modifed 4wd kills toddler"
"distracted driver kills toddler"
its all speculation unless you were of course the investigating officer in which case i would have thought you give a more factual view.

simple.

I like you simple was voicing an opinion, as to what may have of caused the accident. I think we have similar ideals, and should have known better to think that I was the investigative officer, because antone would know that at this stage any findings would not have been made public.

My point and I will reiterate, cars do not have brains, they cannot think for themselves, which is what pisses me off the media hype implying the it was the car at fault.

I dont believe for one second that we live in movieland with car 'christine'.

Wether anyone does get charged is really irrelevant also the damage is done. A child is dead and NO parent should outlive their kids.

RIP another young road victim.

the media hype implied that the type of car contributed to the severity of the accident or created larger than average blind spots causing the driver to not see the child. not that it was the car at fault.

however i did understand your point, but i don't think its fair of you to solely blame the driver, some incidents are simply unavoidable by some individuals, possibly in this case it was unavoidable on the DRIVERS part (possibly not so in the parents case)

simple

Simple I dont think you understood my points, it appeared to be jaoint responsibility on both parent and driver, but unfortuntately the end result is the same ... another tragedy on our roads. The only thing that be blamed is the car as cannot think for themselves yet fortunately

The bottom of the door looks halfway between the cops knee and waist. I don't know how tall the cop is but if he's average height then that Lux is a lot higher than mine with a 2" lift

I don't know but that photo is clearly taken from a low angle,the springs seem fairly flat for the rig to be so high? I'm not a big fan of removing of bumpers and mudflaps,the vehicle looks bad and you get harrased but the cops,and so you should.
Regards Charlie

I think the ricer community would be better targets, but you just don't see how many of them wrap themselves around power poles and you rarely see them on the news.

Who needs slammed vehicles with multiple turbos, in excess of 250 kW in a vehicle of ~1200 kg, and Doof-Doof music blaring so loud that you can't hear siren/horns/other vehicles. We certainly don't need the street races either.

The argument for them being driven sensibly on roads applies equally to modified 4WD's.

Lifting a 4WD does not affect the relative CofG if you widen the track appropriately. This is where the regulations screw themselves. You are allowed to increase your height by as much as you want (within reasonable engineering limits), but you are not allowed to increase your track by more than 2", thereby "regulating" unstable vehicles onto the road. Anyone that has had a rollover in a lifted vehicle should mount a Class Action about the unsafe regulations.

The big answer still goes back to the lack of parental supervision of the child. The driver did nothing wrong by driving on the road (has not, and will not be charged). The accident shouldn't have been allowed to happen in the first place.......

I assume 'racer' was what you meant, I totally agree, all modifications need stricter regulation & certification. At the moment any backyarder can tamper with their vehicle suspension whether they know what they are doing or not.
As far as I can see excessively modified 4wds do untold damage to the bush tracks, ie. bigger wheels ... deeper trenches, deeper trenches need even bigger wheels ... where does it stop?
These tracks are essentially for emergency vehicles, so how does a fire truck get through these massive ruts?

I also think it is being harsh to the extreme to be judgemental the parent/s of the deceased child, without being in full possession of the facts.

RICER is what I meant, typically a Japanese import. The term comes from "Rice cooker".

Contrary to your beliefs, large tyres do less damage to the environment than pizza cutters, due to the lower psi of ground pressure they exert, and the larger diameter of the tyres being more able to "bridge over" depressions in the terrain. Best example of this phenomenon is the Icelandic 4WD's with the huge tyres specifically for driving ON snow (note: not IN snow).

"... where does it stop? ", It stops when ppl learn to air down their tyres appropriately. Big tyres arent the problem, it is the little tyres that are hard as a rock, that are scrabbling for traction that cause the problems in the first place.

Let me ask you something...

If you were stuck in a bog and a highly modified 4WD came along and went straight through that bog and then offered you a snatch out, would you accept, or refuse on principle?

Well you learn something everyday, Ricer! lol
Listen, I live on the edge of the high country & spend heaps of time there, so I know the damage caused by illegal over diameter tyres.
I will respond to your question with a question, if you were bogged in an illegally modified 4WD, & I went around the chicken track, would you accept a tow from me?
As with your question obviously ...YES!
That is the other problem, because of the track damage, people create these so called 'chicken tracks' which only serve to give the greenies more ammunition for their criticism of 4WDs.

C,mon shaker have a read, I am not talking about the incident. I would no way consider it a joke and am actually offended you think that. The what a joke means the journalism that has once again been used to assist in the 4wd bashing scene. As has said before I doubt very much this would get a mention of such high intensity if it was say a commodor or barina etc.
I love my son dearly and I am very sad and my deepest feelings/simpathies go to the parents, but I do think the constant negative feedback we get when a 4WD is involved in a accident is a "joke"

944runner, I am genuinely sorry if I offended you, but I was probably a little put off by the wording & I think that when a child is killed we should put our relatively petty issues aside & feel for the family.
I also found some of the judgemental posts to be in exceedingly poor taste.

Well said Sandy, it's so easy for people to attribute blame, I have as you have described, had both my children disappear from me, thankfully they have not crossed the road, but it only takes a split second. And you have to ask yourself, how many people saw a 3 year old cross that busy road.

It is an absolute tragedy, the childn's mother will blame herself, and the driver will blame himself.

Lyn