Top Gear: Greatest Car of all Time

Submitted: Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:00
ThreadID: 32020 Views:5741 Replies:17 FollowUps:53
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:) :) :) British or not, vehicles from all over the world were voted for.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/greatest/winner.shtml

The votes have been counted and the Land Rover is a clear winner with 29 percent of the vote. Here's how the others measured up: McLaren F1, 17 percent; Audi Quattro, 16 percent; Jag E-Type, 15 percent; Ford Mustang, 10 percent; Citroen DS, 6 percent; Fiat 500, 4 percent; Black Cab 2 percent and Rolls Royce Silver Cloud 1 percent.

After such lengthy service, the Land Rover really deserves a knighthood, but the greatest car award will do nicely.
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Reply By: Member - BANJO (WA) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:19

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:19
Wot? The Lightburn Zeta missed out?

Banjo
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:51

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:51
another SA car manufacturer sent to the wall hey Banjo...

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Follow Up By: Des Lexic - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:58

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:58
Damned typical, they overlooked the Gogomobil dart as well. Now that's a collectors piece.
Incidently, I saw a Zeta wreck the other day. Just the body shell.
Could be a restoration project. Does anyone have a good second hand lawn mower motor for sale. Maybe a turbo'd 4 stroke donk would be the go.
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:00

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:00
Showin your age now ol chap,There would be a lot out there never heard of them, As an old South Aussie i remember them and the messerschmitt

zeta
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:47

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:47
mm do I recal seeing framed pics on the owners office wall?...bugga he's on holidays at the moment
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 03:15

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 03:15
You dont have to be that old they used to make them in the factory next door to where I went to school in the mid 80s
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (QLD) - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:45

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:45
Davoe
Zeta's were not made in the 80s or the 70s it was the early 60s
zeta
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 15:08

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 15:08
Never said they were just that I went to school next door the the Lightburns factory in the mid 90s and they still had a few kicking about
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Reply By: Redback - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:34

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:34
Was there any doubt ;-))
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:48

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:48
always was and still is...
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:49

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:49
and always will be
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Follow Up By: Member - bushfix - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:04

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:04
G'day Baz,

did you get out Glen Davis way with the party last weekend? I heard there was a good varitey there, one brought irom SA too eh?
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Follow Up By: Redback - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 12:21

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 12:21
How'd you know about Glen Davis, i'm going this weekend i hope.

Baz.
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Follow Up By: Member - bushfix - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 12:58

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 12:58
Mr Rodick.
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Reply By: glenno(qld) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:51

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:51
I agree that the land rover is the (worlds) greatest 4WD of all time .
My (personal choice) australias greatest 4WD of all time is the Troopy though .
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:03

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:03
Glenn
I am surprised the yanks don't have Troopies in that Country
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Follow Up By: glenno(qld) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:09

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:09
Not over pearl harbour yet .
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 03:20

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 03:20
No call for tough no nonsense tourers in seppo land I think its pretty much just bitumen and good gravel roads which is ideal for explorers and for the hardcore stuff you need to go to rock crawling parks
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Reply By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:56

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:56
I guess we were not to expect anything else from the poms! They should get out a bit more and take the tunnel to the mainland for some fine european machinery. If I remenber correctly, when they did the Landrover test it wasn't that convincing as he had to have a team of people to get him out of the bog severall times. But the funniest part (revealed in a later show) that he took the keys with him on the helicopter.

Kind regards
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Follow Up By: Member - Omaroo (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:00

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:00
I don't think that the point was whether or not it could make it out of a bog (I've seen every brand of 4WD available here in Oz stuck in a bog at one time or other), but how good it's been in relation to its designed function for nearly six decades.

I remember that episode... funny as :)
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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:04

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:04
Yeah I know, but don't they give the Ferrari crap when it is not up to the task etc - all positive on the LR though. That was a great episode particularly when he was making warm drinks and stew while the recovery crew were busy extracting the LR (particularly watching them run up).

Kind regards
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Reply By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:08

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:08
Chris ,
Did they vote the original Land Rover in , or the current model ?
Willie .
AnswerID: 162173

Follow Up By: Member - Omaroo (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:13

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:13
I think that it was just a general vote Willie... and model-related rather than by specific year as such. The Land Rover (Series 1,2,3,110 and Defender) has been around since the latter 40's and is basically un-changed in general design since then - apart from coils rather than leaves. These days it's called the "Defender" because they had to separate it from the Range Rover, Discovery and Freelander models which are all relatively new.
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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:30

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:30
Used to own a 2A so I also have a spot in my heart for these vehicles. It gave us lots of pleasure (and some tears). It took us to a lot of places and was as tough as. But not overly reliable and needed the fairy overdrive to get me past 80KPH. Still we had a ball in it.

Kind regards
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Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:33

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:33
I had a LWB , 6 cylinder four door LR for a year . It had great charisma but dreadful dust sealing , no guts and a bone rattling suspension .

I have heard they have fixed the suspension , but not so sure about the dust .

I am on my fourth Cruiser , but if they fixed a few things in the Landie , I would get another one - just for the romance - they have got that something "extra" that I cannot quite name .

Cheers ,

Willie .

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Follow Up By: Member - Omaroo (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:39

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:39
The year Land Rover went with coils was 1983 in the 110.

Here's the entire history. Pretty cool.
____________________________
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/4/LandRover/History/
____________________________

1884: Starley and Sutton start making the Rover safety cycle - the name stuck and `Rover' still means `bike' in e.g. Poland.
1947: First prototype Land Rovers built (based on the WWII Willys Overland Jeep) including the centre-steer prototype.
1948-1958: Series One (SI) Land Rover
The 80" SWB Land Rover with a 1.6L ioev engine world debut at the Amsterdam motor show 30 April 1948. It featured full-time 4WD with a front free-wheel mechanism which could be locked by a "ring-pull" control. The head-lights were mounted behind the radiator grille (which made them hard to clean). The side-lights were mounted on the fire-wall or bulkhead.
1949: 80" Station-wagon model.
1949: First Land-Rovers used on the Snowy Mountains Hydro-Electric Scheme (SMHEA).
1949: Head-lights "through" the radiator grille.
1950: Selectable 2WD or 4WD - the free-wheel mechanism dropped.
1951: 2-litre engine. 80" station wagon discontinued.
1952: Exterior door-handles, new inverted-T radiator grill, side-lights on wings.
1953: 107" model introduced; SWB lengthened to 86".
1954: Station wagon reintroduced.
1955: 10-seater LWB station wagon introduced (the ultimate "Meccano" kit car?).
1956: Wheelbases increased by 2" (88" and 109"), except 107" SW.
1957: Optional 2-litre diesel engine. Fully-floating halfshafts on LWB.

1958-1961: Series Two (SII) Land Rover
1958: (April) S2 introduced - 2.25L petrol engine. Some early cars had the old 2-litre petrol engine fitted.
1959: 109" 10 seater station wagon introduced.
1959: November, 250,000th Land-Rover produced.
1961: 2.25L diesel introduced.

1961-1971: Series Two A (SIIA) Land Rover
2.25L petrol or 2.25L diesel engine.
1962: 12-seater LWB station wagon; This could be seen as a tax avoidance measure as 12 seats made it a bus and buses did not carry sales-tax!
1962: Forward Control Land Rover introduced.
1965: (approx') prototypes of the Military Lightweight.
1966: Optional 2.6L 6cyl petrol engine on LWB and FC. Improved FC (series 2B).
500,000th Land-Rover produced.
1967: New dashboard, single concealed wiper motor.
1968: Headlamps move to wings on export models.
1968: Military Lightweight 88" air-transportable.
1969: Stronger Salisbury rear axle on LWB models.
1970: Headlights move to wings (see 1968 above).

1970: Range Rover released (see below)

1971-1983: Series three (SIII) Land Rover
1971: (Oct) Series 3 introduced. New all synchromesh gearbox. 750,000th Land-Rover produced.
1972: Stronger Salisbury rear axle standard on LWB.
1972: SIII version of the Military Lightweight introduced.
1972: Military 101" Forward Control introduced - 3.5L V8, LT95 4-speed full-time 4WD.
1974: End of Land Rover imports into USA (RR imports started 1987).
1976 June: 1,000,000th Land-Rover produced.

1979-1985: Land Rover SI I Stage-1,
leaf-sprung LWB (109"), 3.5L V8, LT95 4-speed full-time 4WD; also an Australian version powered by the Isuzu 3.9L 4BD1 4-cyl diesel.
1981: Camel Trophy switches to Land Rover products - Range Rover in this instance.

1983: Land Rover 110, coil sprung, LWB (110")

1984: Land Rover 90, coil sprung, SWB (actually 92.9").

1988: British Aerospace take over Rover Group.

1989: Land Rover Discovery released (see below).
1989 Dec: Rover announces that the hyphen in Land-Rover was being dropped - Sandy Grice 1/'97.
1990: Camel Trophy adopts the Land Rover Discovery.

1990: Land Rover Defender 90, 110, 130, including crew cab, ... (new marketing name for 90 / 110 / 127 and gradual improvements).

1994: Rover Group sold to BMW.

1994 Sept: New Range Rover released (see below)
original Range Rover continues as the Classic
1996: UK Ministry of Defence orders 8000 Land Rover XD110 and XD90 (XD - eXtra Duty) 4WDs to be delivered 1996-2000, and 800 XD130 ambulances, ending months of speculation.

1996 Feb: Last Range Rover Classic built.

1997: Modern, small Land Rover, code name CB40, finally revealed and christened Freelander. On sale in UK late 1997. Also used in the 1998 Camel Trophy!

1999 Sept: The `Rover Group' name to disappear except for legal and accounting purposes; with all major decision making taking place at BMW, and no local Rover corporate structure, it is just another `marque' owned by BMW.

2000 March: BMW decides to sell Landrover to Ford for about US$2.7bn, and later Rover cars to a management group `Phoenix'. What does this mean for the next Range Rover?

2000, July 1: Ford takes control of Land Rover.
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Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:42

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:42
Chris ,
Are "XD" versions available in Australia ?( see 1996 )
Willie .
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Follow Up By: Member - Omaroo (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 12:02

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 12:02
I'm not sure that I've heard of them over here Willie. We have our own version built for our ground defense forces called the "Perentie".
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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 12:14

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 12:14
Willie,

Took ours through the under body car wash at Tewantin what a show there was as much water in the car as there was out but worse of all the spark plug recesses sit vertically on top of the motor so it didn't take long for water to settle there and stall the motor. Also cracked one of the plugs so had to drive home on 5 cylinders (not so well edumecated then). A mean feat with 8 on board.

Kind regards
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 22:13

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 22:13
95% of Landrovers made are still on the road....the other 5% made it back home.
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
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Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Australia) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 22:23

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 22:23
Willie
>I am on my fourth Cruiser , but if they fixed a few things in the >Landie , I would get another one - just for the romance - they have >got that something "extra" that I cannot quite name

A land Rover has a heart, a soul and above all it has charisma like no other 4x4.
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Follow Up By: Gramps (NSW) - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 00:56

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 00:56
Er Ray, it's metal, plastic, glass and rubber. That's all. Just like x million others of varying pedigrees. Sorry, I cannot attribute charisma to a machine :))))
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:25

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:25
Ever owned or driven an early MX5 or Alfa Duetto Spider, Al? If that metal, plastic, glass and rubber is put together in the correct proportions and with the appropriate objective they can definitely have charisma.
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Follow Up By: Gramps (NSW) - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:32

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:32
Aaaahh Wombat! Cars just don't do it for me mate. Now, other things, in the correct proportions, that's another story but not for this forum :))))))
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Reply By: robak (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:45

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:45
I'm surprised that the P76 didn't get a mention.
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Reply By: Member No 1- Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:54

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:54
goes to prove the pomes have no dignity?
gee and to think we thought they had intelligence as well
AnswerID: 162182

Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:58

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:58
"gee and to think we thought they had intelligence as well"

Sound like something a pom would say? Bloody hell never entered my mind.

Kind regards
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Reply By: Member - Tony G (ACT) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:57

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 10:57
My Grandfather had a Series 1 rag top in 1950 then a Series 2 MWB hardtop in 54. I learnt to drive in it in the late 50's. 1st gear low range around the paddock, parking between 44's. When I eventually went for my licence, the local sargent made me drive a car for the test. After a few stalls to get going I eventually finished and past.

The old landie still sits in the paddock rusting away to this day, and there is not much left.

It was a work vehicle, loaded with traps and dogs as the grandfather was a fur trader (rabbit trapper) and prostector.
AnswerID: 162183

Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:13

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:13
Can you imagine a UK magazine Voting UK car #1? Im in deep shock, I may have to call 000

That is = to Nissan giving a Nissan #1, or Toyota giving Toyota #1...

Yawn.
AnswerID: 162185

Follow Up By: Member - Omaroo (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:15

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:15
The magazine/TV show didn't cast the votes.... the people did.

Jeez... you make it sound as though you're offended. Give credit where credit is due. Nissans may suit you and me, but a GQ is never going to make it into the spot for the world's most appreciated vehicle.
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Follow Up By: Gramps (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 18:32

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 18:32
Poms being "the people" :)))
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 21:24

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 21:24
You said it Gramps.

Like expecting yanks to Vote for a Honda over a Chev... It just wouldnt happen.
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Follow Up By: Member - Omaroo (NSW) - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 21:42

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 21:42
Let it go fellas :(

At least it was a FOUR WHEEL DRIVE.

Jeez... Truckster - no one gives a crap about your precious bloody Nissans.
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 21:50

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 21:50
I never mentioned Nissan in the comp.

have you ever read a UK 4wd magazine? have a laugh one day, you will see what Im on about.
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Follow Up By: Member - Omaroo (NSW) - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 22:19

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 22:19
Even if it WAS primarily the British motoring public that voted - the fact that a four wheel drive made it to the top (even with a plethora of proper European performance and luxury machinery to choose from) is tantamount to a miracle. 4WD's in that country suffer the same perception problems we face here - only worse. Greenlaning is becoming extinct. I think it's a VICTORY for our recreation - not a Land Rover/Jeep vs. the Jap crowd for offroad supremacy competition which belongs in the school yard.
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Follow Up By: Gramps (NSW) - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 01:19

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 01:19
Omaroo,

Hahahaha come on. You posted knowing full well we'd start taking the pi$$.

Now if the winner was a VW, Lada Niva or the mighty Hilux, we'd know you were being serious. LOLOL
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Follow Up By: Member - Omaroo (NSW) - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:00

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:00
Yeah Gramps.... I guess I did.
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Reply By: Sparkiepete - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:22

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:22
What about the unbreakable Hilux they featured on the show. That has to be the best 4WD off all time.
AnswerID: 162186

Follow Up By: Member - Omaroo (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:27

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 11:27
Just trying to remember how many 60 year old HiLuxes I've seen still on the road... can't be many....

;)

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Follow Up By: drivesafe - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 13:18

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 13:18
Wouldn’t you be hard pushed to see many 6 year old luxes on the road, especially when you consider the “ Unbreakable “ hilux is now proving to be so Unreliable.

Lets face it, how many new off road vehicles come with a warranty that preclude using the vehicle off road.

Toyotas do hmmmmmmm.
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Follow Up By: andymitch - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 15:14

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 15:14
Quick question to all those L/R people. Can anyone remember what year and what model it was that did the "First Overland" UK to Singapore? I think there were 2 or 3 in the group.
Andy
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Follow Up By: andymitch - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 15:17

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 15:17
And don't cheat by Googleing it
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 22:12

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 22:12
95% of Landrovers made are still on the road....the other 5% made it back home.
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
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Reply By: Gramps (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 15:19

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 15:19
Hmmph! No credibility at all. No mention of the VW Beetle OR that example of technical excellence, the Lada Niva.

Bloody introverted lot, Poms :))))))
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Reply By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 15:32

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 15:32
I suppose if they did this same exercise on bikes it would be Triumph first, BSA second and nor third prize!?

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Follow Up By: Member - Omaroo (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 15:37

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 15:37
Even the Brits would most probably vote for the Mike Hailwood Ducati...


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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 15:42

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 15:42
Nice bike and wouldn't mind that myself. Have a nice tone about them. Way too cosmopolitan for the poms and they would have some issues with it being Italian, possibly even object to the cafe racer format being impractical.
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Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 06:55

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 06:55
1972 Norton Commando Roadster 750 with dunstal pipes.
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Follow Up By: Redback - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 08:21

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 08:21
1968 Triumph Bonneville oooohhhh aaaahhh
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:28

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:28
I'd be queuing up with Baz. Second prize to the Kawasaki 440 LTD.
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Reply By: OLDMAGPIE - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 20:36

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 20:36
ford rules again! cheers
AnswerID: 162325

Reply By: Bonz (Vic) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 22:12

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 22:12
95% of Landrovers made are still on the road....the other 5% made it back home.
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
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Follow Up By: Member - Omaroo (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 23:03

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 23:03
You hoping that you'll be noticed?

;)
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 23:05

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 at 23:05
lol no, just different recipients of my unique form of wit and elucidation, and I stutter too
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Reply By: Member - Doug T (QLD) - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:59

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:59
What a lot a interest this post made and well deserved too, What did Australians use before Toyota,Nissan,Musso,Mitsubishi,Kia, and so on, Landrover of course with a sprinkling of Jeep/Ford,
The late Len Beadell would not have achieved his goal without Landrover.
Is Jeep the only 4x4 manufacturer in the world that specialises in 4X4 only..???
still going strong with 836,179 K's

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AnswerID: 162610

Reply By: Johnabc - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 13:16

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 13:16
Here is a brilliant article about the Greatest Vehicle ever. Hard to argue with it.

Site Link
AnswerID: 165257

Follow Up By: Redback - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 13:46

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 13:46
Yep, gotta love the early Jeeps.

After all it started the whole thing rolling.
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Reply By: AdlelaideGeorge - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 13:52

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 13:52
...well of course they obviously don't have Tritons over there then do they eh?... eh?
AnswerID: 165270

Follow Up By: Wombat - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 15:19

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 15:19
Ummmm,yes they do George!

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Follow Up By: AdlelaideGeorge - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 16:11

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 16:11
WOW!.......and it didn't win!!!!!!!!!? rigged.........rigged
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