Camera choice

Submitted: Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 11:30
ThreadID: 35509 Views:4157 Replies:15 FollowUps:40
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Hi all,

I know there are plenty of knowledgable photographers on the forum so I'm some advice.

After over a decade with my trusty Nikon F50 I've decided to finally upgrade to a digital SLR. I'm mainly looking at the bottom of the range SLRs. So it's either the Nikon D50 or the Canon 350D.

I currently have only two lenses for the nikon as some were stolen a few years back. A tamron 18-70 (which is rubbish) and a nikon 70-300. so it's not huge investement, and would be happy to change to canon if it seems right.

I'm begining to lean towards the Canon as I like the size and weight of it, but it is slightly more expensive and I'll need to buy another 70-300 lens. For a further $150 I could possibly get the Nikon D70 with the 18-55 lens.

These are some prices I found (in Aus doollars inludes gst + freight)
Nikon D50 + 18-55lens = $969 in aus or $1100 from usa
Nikon D70 + 18-55lens = $1746 in aus or $1467 from usa
Canon 350D + 18-55lens = $1188 in aus or $1100 from usa
Canon 350D + 18-55lens + 75-300lens = $1399 aus or 1300 from usa

Your thoughts and experiences would be greatly appreciated.

R.

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Reply By: Member - Col G (WA) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:24

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:24
You are asking the camera equivalent of the Nissan v Toyota argument. One could talk the relative merits of each brand for ever. Check out dpreview.com to see what I mean. There are also extensive reviews of each. I am a Nikon person but either would do a good job. Like you say the Nikon is a bit dearer but in my opinion worth it, others would argue.

One point that is worth mentioning is the fact that the Nikon cameras you are looking at are 6.1 MP and the Canon 350 is 8MP.

Whatever you choose, enjoy it and dont look back.

Cheers

Col
AnswerID: 181749

Follow Up By: robak (QLD) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:30

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:30
Hi col, thanks.

I was hoping that this doesn't desintegrate into THAT type of debate.
Like you point out nikon only hass the 6.1 meg but I don't think I'll need more then that for 99% of the time as I won't be doing many (or any) large format prints.

I also noticed that nikon only has ISO from 200 and up. Do you think that 100 ISO would be usefull?

Cheers.
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Reply By: hopscotch - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:40

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:40
Better half uses the still while I have the video - Usually. The old film 1000f Canon was on the way out so we went for the new 350D which would take the same EF lenses. We have had the 350D for almost twelve months and I have not heard one complaint once she read the instructions and learnt how to use the features.
In actual fact the initial cost is the least of your worries since it then becomes the computer - the printer - the paper - the editing program - the computer - the printer etc etc. Always for a better result I must admit.
Seriously it does take exceptional quality. Have no Nikon experience personally but daughter has a high end Nikon and has been less than impressed at times with the automatic features. Seems ok when you drive the thing but goes off track when left to its programs.
Kevin J
AnswerID: 181755

Follow Up By: robak (QLD) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 15:11

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 15:11
Funny you mention the automatic program featrures. On the old F50 I've had for about 13 years I can't rememebr ever using those programming functions.

Thanks
R
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Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:43

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:43
Canon 350D + 18-55lens - good camera.. I have a 300D, and over 2 days took better photos with the 300D than the 20D! (ising 17-70 Sigma lens)

The Std lens is crap. If you can swap it for the 18-55 IS lens, pay the difference!!! WELL WORTH IT

Shame your in Qld, theres a bloke that sells through Ebay ( !photobuff! ) that is in Melb, that allows you to go to his place, pickup, and try things - eg lens... I tried about 10 lens' before buying (bought5 from him) over time.

Great prices, and even better service. HIs gear comes from USA. He will also sell off ebay to save you a few more $...

Im still only learning this photography crap, but this is a few recent ones. Im doing a basic camera course at moment. these are all 300D











This was ~11pm at night

AnswerID: 181756

Follow Up By: Member - Stephen M (NSW) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:48

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:48
Great shots there truckster. Regards Steve M
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Follow Up By: robak (QLD) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:55

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:55
That's some nice photos there truckster. Thanks for the input.

What's the differnce between the standard lens and the "IS".

R.
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Follow Up By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 13:18

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 13:18
Hey Truckster,
Great photo's,
How does someone outside Melbourne get in touch with the guy?

Geoff.
Geoff,

Grey hair is hereditary, you get it from children. Baldness is caused by watching the Wallabies.

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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 14:07

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 14:07
Steve..
yea gettin the hang of it :)

Robak .
quality.. You get nothing for free.
The IS has Image Stabilizer with it, and is just a better level/quality lens.

Geoff.. He is on holidays at moment, but when he gets back, he has his mobile # in every ad :) Call it, talk to him.
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Follow Up By: Pajman Pete (SA) - Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 14:51

Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 14:51
Very nice photos. You must have been in a reflective mood!

Cheers

Pete
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 10:21

Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 10:21
Sitting here in reflection, I think you could be right :P
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Reply By: Member - Stephen M (NSW) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 13:11

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 13:11
Go the Olympus, as I believe its the only digital slr with the super sonic device built inside that protects inside the camera with a screen so when you change lenses over and if you get any dust inside it is removed statically evertime you turn the camera, shakes approx 1000 times per second on start up. great for in those dusty areas, they are also the only camera that build there lenses from the ground up purelly for digital camera's. I have 3 Olympus cameras, 1 when they first come out 1.3 mega pixal, second snappy 1 is a 5 mp, the last one is a SLR E-330 - 7.5 Megapixels. Here are some of the features, continuous live previews on the 2.5" multi-angle LCD for easier framing of compositions and greater shot flexibility! 7.5-megapixel digital SLR also features the latest-generation MOS sensor for detailed, top-quality images. Plus, it features the Olympus SuperSonic Wave Filter for dust-free photography. Takes unreal shots, Not sure wether in your price range or not but I still have all 3 and have never had aproblem with any of them. They get used around water when were out skiing, inside the boat, also when out 4wdriving and have all been great. Just a thought thats all, as said above not out to start a debate just another option thats available. Regards Steve M
AnswerID: 181759

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 14:21

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 14:21
Be careful with olympus - mum had one about 5 yrs ago.. it was only 8 mths old, and then it had issues.. sent it back for repairs, only to be told that there were no parts available and to throw it away. after many phone calls, lawyers got in, and we finally got it fixed :(
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Follow Up By: Member - Stephen M (NSW) - Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 10:41

Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 10:41
Hi there Truckster, yeah cant comment on that as I havn't had to get any repairs done YET, hopefully I wont need to but that is the question I will be asking in a couple of weeks when we get our new one, havnt decided yet on which one, was/is going to be an olympus but with that sort of service as far as repairs needed might sway me the other way which is the cannon. Regards Steve M
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 11:20

Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 11:20
Yea true.. Suppose its luck of the draw.

like blown motors, crumbling A Arms etc...

;)
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Follow Up By: robak (QLD) - Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 13:41

Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 13:41
Steve,

That seems like a good idea with that dust removing thingie. I wonder why no other cameras have gone that. I'll look into it

Cheers.
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Reply By: phillip owen - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 14:50

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 14:50
I recently did the research myself into Nikon V Canon for a digital SLR.
I was informed that either is fine, however, the Nikon will tend to "flood" the image with light so that it seems 'over exposed' and that the Canon will not do this.

The other point mentioned was the megapixels. The resolution of a printed photo at the photo lab is 300dpi. Any digital camera will produce an image at 300dpi when printed at 6x4 size. As you begin to enlarge the the picture, ie print at 5x7, 6x8, 10x12 etc, the photo lab generally still prints at 300dpi. However, the more megapixels that a digital camera has, the more you can enlarge the photo without loosing that 300dpi resolution. So with an 8MP camera, you print larger photos that do not appear as "grainy" as a photo taken with a 6MP camera.
AnswerID: 181775

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 14:59

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 14:59
Metering is a complex subject, but I think both Nikon and Canon meter very similarly in my view, and I frequently have 5 or 6 photographers around me with a mix of Nikon and Canon cameras.

Every digital photographer should learn to use the histogram, and exposure compensation, and they can have every shot exposed perfectly - no excuses.

Your explanation of megapixels is somewhat simplistic.

Not every photo lab is 300 dpi. Many are 200, most are 400.

Graininess is usually noise in an image and this is a complex subject related to the conditions, exposure, sensitivity and complex camera design and image processing issues.

Inexpensive cameras tend to have smaller sensors, less sophisticated image processing, lower sensitivies and higher noise making the images appear grainy.

One other factor is image compression which is by and large a camera setting - lower compression is lower graininess.

Issues of resolution tend to look more like jaggy edges when pushed past the limits, but generally 200 dpi still looks pretty good for most purposes.

The 8-Mpixel camera is really only going to be able to enlarge an image 14% larger than the 6-MPixel camera for it to demonstrate these jaggy edges and this is hardly going to be noticeable.

I hope that helps
Andrew.
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 15:04

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 15:04
apparently the 30D (the new 20D I think its 30D) has issue with "WHITING" photos - too much light, search a few forums on it. Canon know about it, what they are doign to fix it nobody knows, but your camera comes back working with firmware upgrade
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Reply By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 14:51

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 14:51
Hi there R,

I have a digital camera buyers guide on my website www.vividadventures.com.au/PT.htm accessible from the bottom of this page on my website which you might like to look at to keep in mind the things to think about.

At the top of the list, get to a retailer and hold the cameras and chosen lenses in your hand - to me, this is a critical step many people miss, and end up with cameras that they don't really like.

The Nikon vs. Canon debate is rather academic - they are very similar in capability.

I chiefly use a Canon - you can see them at actualeyes.shutterpoint.com

I must say that I had a Nikon D70 that was 2 years old in to Nikon to fix a known problem called Blinking Green Light of Death (don't you like it!) and they did it for free even though out of warranty.

Admittedly I have not had to call on Canon service in the same way as I usually sell my cameras when they are about 1 year old, but I get the feeling they wouldn't have been so forthcoming.

I do like the construction of the D50 and D70 - the 350D feels a little less robust but I've never had any problems with them and numerous of my clients have them.

I generally use the Canon 5D and 20D which are more robust again, in my view.

You will not see much difference between 6 and 8 Megapixels - remember that the vertical or horizontal dimensions 14% more for the 8-Mpixel camera. Hardly anything to write home about.

I do find the low light (ISO 1600+) photography with the 350D better than the Nikon as seen by Tracker's posting - cool moonlit shot he posted.

As for buying, expect that over $1,000 you will have to pay GST and a customs agent charge on the way in to Australia, and if you are buying from eBay to buy from a reputable company. I like T-dimension from HK, by the way.

Remember too that warranties for grey-market imported cameras might not be honoured in Australia, particularly with the Nikon agents (Maxwell) here.

I recommend buying a 3-year www.mackcam.com warranty from the purchaser if possible, or from eBay.

The prices look pretty good to me.

Drop me an email or give me a call if you have other questions.

Ciao for now
Andrew.

AnswerID: 181776

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 15:02

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 15:02
As for buying, expect that over $1,000 you will have to pay GST and a customs agent charge on the way in to Australia

Thats why I like Photobuff.. or outlaws in USA, sendnig gifts is always nice of em :D
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 17:53

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 17:53
Hi there Truckster,

Anything sent in the mail is not going to necessarily avoid paying the GST and customs - even gifts.

Likewise bringing it back in person is no guarantee and adds the extra complexity of obvious illegality and fines.

If the camera is clearly in use and you don't have the packaging (mail that separately) then there is less of a problem, although if you have a lot of stuff, expect to answer some questions.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 07:34

Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 07:34
agree - but you have to be smart about it ;)

send packaging another day in another parcel with manuals to start with :D
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Reply By: Groove - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 17:28

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 17:28
Check out www.dpreview.com/ if you havent already a great site with a lot of reviews for most cameras
AnswerID: 181791

Reply By: Kiwi Ray - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 17:35

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 17:35
Hi Robak
I have used a few SLR digital cameras and for my personal camera I have settled on the Canon 350 as it is one of the easier models to use and has some features that are ahead of the other models.
The screen is on the back pixel rate is your choice, the focus system I think is fast and simple and for sporting use the rapid fire system is one of the faster ones
The camera can also change focus from its original setting if you are taking photos of moving objects
Youi should be able to deal with the camera shops and get the larger lens than the one listed, it is a sales incentive.
The lens specs 18 - 55 is not the same as as an optical lens, they rate about 1/3 lower in optical length.
If you purchase in Aus you will know that the PC programe will work, this can be a problen with cameras purchased overseas
Ray
AnswerID: 181793

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 18:02

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 18:02
Hi Ray,

You are right to point out the effect of the smaller image size of most digital cameras, but the details you mentioned are perhaps ambiguous.

The field of view from a lens on most digital cameras is smaller than a 35mm film camera or a full frame digital like the Canon 5D or 1D/1Ds.

The result is similar to having a lens that is LONGER than the actual optical length of the lens (if it were on a 35mm camera).

For the Digital SLR cameras it is 1.5x longer for the D70 and 1.6x longer for the Canon 350D, 10D, 20D, 30D and other APS-C size sensors.

So, the 18-55mm on a 350D has equivalent field of view to a 28-80mm lens on a 35mm camera.

For some point and shoot cameras it is quite a bit more than this again.

There are effects other than point of view too ... try putting the numbers is www.dof-master.com to see the effect on depth of field.

This is why lower end digital cameras provide less opportunities for creative use of narrow depth of field.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Reply By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 18:35

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 18:35
R ,

I have a Canon 300D and a Canon 24-70 f / 2.8L USM lense - I am very happy with this set-up - I have had the camera for a couple of years , but only bought this lense in Feb '06 .

The standard lenses which come with either the Canon or the Nikon are made for a "package price" special , so I think whichever camera you choose , you should get a body only , and save up again for a beaut lense .

The difference this new lense has made to my shots is just amazing .

Cheers ,

Willie .
AnswerID: 181809

Reply By: Member - Ray (SA) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 20:32

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 20:32
G'Day Robak,

I've been a Nikon user for a number of years, first with film cameras and then an upgrade to a D70 a couple of years ago. I noticed in your original post, you were looking at the 18-55mm lens. I have to say that if you are looking at a standard package, go the 18-70mm lens instead.

As a kit lens, it's a great lens which, even now, I will use instead of more some of my more expensive lenses. The package may be a little more expensive but you are getting a far superior lens for the price.

For an example of some of the images, below is a link to one of my albums. The majority of these pics were taken with the kit 18-70mm lens.

link text
AnswerID: 181836

Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 23:44

Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 23:44
I have a Canon vs Canon argument.

The 350D I own is a fine camera and does everything I wish from it.
BUT, sometimes smaller is better.

I also have a Canon Powershot S70 digital camera and despite the compactness and the lower megapixel rating, it is hard to pick which photo came from which camera sometimes. This camera is a good, compact, flexible camera which is easy to carry about. The only negative I have is the red eye problem many compact cameras have when using the flash at night. Not every photo, just most of them.
(yes, I have red eye reduction turned on)

The SLR has a great zoom and with the Image Stabiliser lens option, gives a sharp picture under virtually all conditions. The negative.....It's NOT compact.
You need to carry it slung from the shoulder by the carry strap and one feels like a dorky "tourist" at times.
Bill


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AnswerID: 181886

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 07:36

Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 07:36
>> BUT, sometimes smaller is better.

I agree.
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 13:05

Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 13:05
Nice point SandMan.

That's why I advocate strongly knowing what you use/need a camera for, knowing from that what you need in a camera and physically handling the camera and/or lenses you are thinking of buying.

Compact digitals continue to get better and better and for many people are capable of more than they ever will need.

People might start to think about Digital SLRs when:

* they want creative control (some compacts have manual settings, but most have limitations, especially in controlling depth of field)
* they want to shoot fast moving action or candid people shots
* they want to work in low light conditions
* they want to continue to use an existing investment in lenses (eg. Nikon or Canon)

I find quite a few female clients who haven't had the benefit of my advice find the bulkiness of most D-SLRs a pain and revert back to compact digitals.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Follow Up By: robak (QLD) - Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 14:09

Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 14:09
Sandman,

I am thinking about getting a compact digital as well. We know very well the hassels of lugging the SLR + lenses around with you when a good compact will most time be adequate.

Thanks for the info

R.
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Follow Up By: Pajman Pete (SA) - Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 15:01

Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 15:01
I have an Olympus 770 with 4MP and a 10 X Optical zoom. Nice and compact, good control over all aspects of the shot and has a fair range of functions. It replaced my OM1n Film SLR and lens suite and the poor old film camera has been gathering dust from day one. (If anyone wants to buy it ...?)

I love having one small camera bag the size of two cigarette packets with camera, batteries and storage for over 1,000 shots.

Cheers

Pete

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Follow Up By: Member - vivien C (VIC) - Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 08:35

Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 08:35
I've got a Canon Eos 1000FN 35mm and a 300mm zoom lens. If I wanted to change over to digital is the 350D Canon the one that I should be looking at or the 300D? From what I've read here the 20D is the camera for the more professional user. My camera is old but still takes great photos so I am undecided whether to just continue with it or move with the times into digital.

Would appreciate help

Viv
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 08:44

Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 08:44
For Viv,

The numbers of the cameras might have some method to them, but what it is is a little hard to come to grips with.

I think price is the primary consideration, but also, the 300D was the first of a new class of camera - low end Digital SLR, and it has a few shortcomings - it was quickly replaced by the 350D which is much better (major issue was insufficient duty cycle on the mirror reflex mechanism). I haven't seen new 300Ds for a while, although there may still be some, but I would stay well clear of them.

Likewise, whilst you can still buy new 20D cameras it has largely been replaced by the 30D which is very similar - just has a larger LCD screen on the back, basically. 20D though, is a perfectly good camera.

There is a significant price differential on the 350D.

There is also the 5D which is a $5,000 camera.

I think you will find when you move to digital:

1. you take a lot more photos
2. because of this, and the immediate feedback, you take a lot better photos
3. you will wonder how you ever did without it.

It's like free film, and even the developing is cheaper if you use the 20c specials at BigW or similar at Hardly Normal or Rabbit.

You existing lenses will fit them all.

I hope this helps
Andrew.
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Follow Up By: Member - vivien C (VIC) - Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 08:59

Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 08:59
Andrew,

Thanks for the help. I'll do what you advised earlier...go and look, handle and take my time deciding what suits. I know that I will change to digital but since I'm happy with my camera I will just take my time deciding.

Price will play an important part but it is good to know that my existing lenses will transfer over.

thanks again

Viv
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Reply By: Motherhen - Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 00:12

Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 00:12
Fabulous photos Truckster.

My husband wanted me to get an SLR with the different lens, but just for travelling i chose is simple pocket sized camera that is light enough to take up a mountain with ease. For travel snaps, i am more than happy with the results. My first digital was a tiny 1.3 mega pixel BenQ el cheapo, plastic lens, no display screen. Some of the better photos still looked good on a 19" monitor. Sure, occasionally a wide angle lens would help, but overall i get great results and happy memories.

Motherhen

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Reply By: Member - Brian H (QLD) - Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 06:57

Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 06:57
I run the cannon 300D and my daughter uses 350D and both take great shots hmmmmmm or is that the person :) ....... I cannot comment on the Nikon as never had one.

In my profile are some of the shots with my 300D ......

Brian
AnswerID: 181895

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 10:22

Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 10:22
Have you done side by side comparison photos with same lens same tripod etc same settings, same subject etc one V the other camera???

Did that the other night at our course with a 30D and my 300D.. interesting to say the least.
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 18:17

Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 18:17
30D vs 300D will not be that different ... 8-MPixel vs. 6-MPixel and just one generation (probably a baby step at that) up in sensor technology.

Situation might change if you take sports images (30D has a faster frame rate, and some better Autofocus technology)

and the big issue is that the 300D is not that robust a beastie - the 350D is a lot better (hence, I'd suggest, the short life of the 300D).

The 30D is quite a step up in build and construction quality.

Ciao for now,
Andrew wondering whoever paid any attention to the sort of brushes or paint Van Gogh used?

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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 21:25

Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 21:25
You would be very suprised in the difference of photos comparing the 2, same subject, just removed camera and lens, and swapped them on the tripod.
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 21:36

Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 21:36
care to elaborate Truckster?

Were you using RAW, manual settings and the manual focus?

If you were and you were using ISO 100 I would say that the results were indistinguishable printed up to 6x4" - perhaps noticeable at 12x8"

Noise would be likely thing - perhaps the 30D was set with one of it's tonal options and you were using JPEG, in which case the results would be quite noticeable in the tonings as well.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 22:09

Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 22:09
I dont have the comparo photos as it was Pauls card and camera (he has issues with his 30D - that was why we were doing it)

But the photos from his camera the colours were sharper, the images just looked clearer (although it was late at night by this stage) we onl printed 2-4 of them at the shop while there, since the only reason was to sort out his spotting problem,

If both were same $ and same accessories, ignoring the MP difference, I would take the 30D from what I saw.

I dont bother with RAW (did for a while, not an issue with 2Gig cards), as I dont want to become a Photoshop expert hacking photos, I wanna learn to take them without that.

YMMV
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 22:51

Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 22:51
This is due to the processing that Canon have added for the 30D.

The default produces a more saturated and higher contrast image, although you could do the same with a RAW process quite easily for a 300D (I think this needs a hack for RAW too).

So yes - if you're talking only what comes out of the camera's native JPEG you're on the money.

The spotting would most likely be the biggest bane of Digital SLRs - dust on the sensor.

I have just taken a band spanking new 5D out of the box and it has dust factory installed.

Learn about Visible Dust would be my recommendation.

Ciao for now
Andrew who is cleaning his cameras tomorrow (a monthly chore)
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 23:11

Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 23:11
Thats the problem - he has only just got it back from Canon from having it cleaned under warranty.. but theres still spots in there..
Appears to be physical damage of some form.. No idea what where or how, we have cleaned it with the help of Rob at the store, but alas, still fubar
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Friday, Jul 07, 2006 at 08:12

Friday, Jul 07, 2006 at 08:12
If they didn't advise him of physical damage (I guess a scratch on the sensor) then I would be blaming them and taking it back them to do the proper job.

They don't use Visible Dust - they use swabs and I have sat and watched them do it.

Although you are unlikely to be able to sit and watch them like I was, being pedantic, and asking them to leave a test shot (f/22 white background) on the camera so you can see it is properly fixed this time, might help.

It is also possible to get dust or I have even see a dust mite legs and all, between the sensor and the cut-off filter!!! They can clean that as well, but it is about 4 or 5 hours work! Just press the point, and scream blue murder - they don't tell consumers about this problem and it is a real one that they have not properly addressed.

I've have seen it take Canon 3 tries to get it right - most consumers aren't taking shots where they use small apertures enough for them to notice a sh*t job.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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FollowupID: 438606

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Friday, Jul 07, 2006 at 12:40

Friday, Jul 07, 2006 at 12:40
lol.. one of the blokes in our course, looks like hells angel, went in got his cleaned...
went home they had done nothing. he went back to Canon in Burwood and in a loud voice, told them to fix it NOW AND I AINT MOVING UNTIL ITS DONE.

it was actioned there on the spot.. and at $80 per clean - i'd want it done too
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FollowupID: 438651

Reply By: robak (QLD) - Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 14:37

Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 14:37
Thanks everyone for your replies.

I think I prefer the canon, but only slightly, so I may go for the nikon D50 body only as it's cheaper and I already have some lenses, or try to get a deal with a better lens then the standard 18-55 they sell with.

Will post some pics some time in the future of the results

Cheers

R.
AnswerID: 181946

Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 02:04

Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 02:04
Robak,

Maybe a final point worth considering.

The reason I justified the Canon EOS 350D was because I also own a Canon EOS 300 35mm camera and a good quality 300mm telephoto zoom lens. So I could use the telephoto lens on the 350D.

Guess what......never used it. The zoom range, plus the Image Stabiliser lens I bought with the 350D has spoilt me. I haven't found the need for a longer reaching lens. Not to say I won't mind you, but probably only the rare occasion.

I just love to turn on full auto mode though and take a "zillion" photographs in a few seconds.
Bill


I'm diagonally parked in a parallel Universe!

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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 10:21

Thursday, Jul 06, 2006 at 10:21
Robak

I have a Sigma 17-70mm Lens whch I got few mths ago, I hardly take it off anymore.
Its not as good as the Canon IS lens, but 1/2 the price and 2ice as good as the standard 18-55!
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FollowupID: 438448

Reply By: extfilm - Friday, Jul 07, 2006 at 01:08

Friday, Jul 07, 2006 at 01:08
OK..... You have decide on a digi camera....... I have waited for all the replys to see what answers you get.....
Personally, I have 5 digital cameras all doing the job I purchased them for....... Including 2 clients have purchased for me.......
I am using a Nikon D200 for my main work now where I do not need a record of the images but I keep them on a seperate hard drive for 5 years just in case someone rings me and wants them.
As for any shots I really want to keep for ever I still use my film cameras as I will never lose my negs/slides.... I have lost digital images due to computer crashes and there is still an art to taking a great picture using 35mm transparency and it is very much becomining a dying art...........
Please do not get me wrong as to get a great digital picture is very easy because you can get brilliant results with digi cameras but when it comes to film it is very much an artform.......
i have a mate who has grown up on digital and said to me whilst we were photographing the big brother house that he envyed me because I understood light without looking at the image on the back of the camera and I could still get a great pic........
I have 6 film cameras and use 4 regulary. Am about to purchase another stills camera to do panoramas.
Just choose the camera that is good for u and remember that a film camera makes u develop the film and then you have the pictures for life.....
Use digital and if u don't print them when u leave this world so does all your memories and your computer will end up in the bin with any memories u may have......
All I am saying here is think about what u are getting and whether it is nikon or canon chose carefully......... and just remember that the images taken with a canon or a nikon are very different because of the sensor sizes...... I met a guy with a whizzz bang Canon (12 mega pixel). I asked him how many pics he could fit on a 1 gig card. He told me over 400????????????? I can only fit 39 on the Nikon D200 (10.2 mega pixels) which makes me think that the canon is a lessa camera. I have had the d200 since december and have been very happy with it so far. If I can only fit 39 pics on my card then my pics must have more information and they are compresed. When u compress an image u loose information.
Whatever your choice have fun and I am am looking forward to seeing your pics
:)
AnswerID: 182235

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Friday, Jul 07, 2006 at 13:43

Friday, Jul 07, 2006 at 13:43
Hi extfilm or perhaps it should be "exy" film - I've got a lot of exy Velvia film taking up space in my fridge ;-)

hmmm - not sure on the premise for your post.

Sure - asset management and protection takes time - but doesn't necessarily cost much though, especially for digital.

Looking after transparencies is quite distinctly harder than looking after your image files. My images are:

* catalogued (I use Cumulus) with meta data for everything, especially job numbers, dates, etc. - do you do that with all your transparencies?
* backed up and stored off site - most of my work is stored in two different brands of media, with one copy in the office and one off-site
* capable of being retrieved based on the thumbnails in Cumulus at a moment's notice.

Consumers can readily use something like Picasa2 from Google to catalogue their images easily too. There is no excuse for not doing it.

I have seen many professionals with boxes and boxes of transparencies with lots of information on the boxes, but stored in attics and all sorts of poor environments prone to dust, moisture and the natural deterioration of the media.

Their ability to retrieve the work is highly questionable, and often the transparencies have been poorly handled, need cleaning and are warped.

Duplicated media stored in geographically separated locations is a sure safer way of ensuring memories are protected over time ... and this is a lot easier to do with digital.

how many of your trustees of your estate are going to care enough about all your work to keep it for posterity - especially when there are filing cabinets or cupboards full of the stuff of unknown content as far as they are concerned? And if your trustees know the value, are their trustees going to know it one generation forn the track when they move on?

If people do have a lot of important family history on slides and negatives, I advocate getting them scanned - ideally professionally, then distribute copies of the image files to the people involved - then everyone has a copy, and they are less likely to get lost, or sent to the tip.

On your last paragraph, you say the sensor sizes of Nikon and Canon cameras are "very different". You are really emphasising how UNIMPORTANT sensor size is to most people, because if a pro doesn't know why it's important, they probably are unlikely to need to know, and if you think differences in sensor size are vendor specific you are smoking something.

The D200 you have has an APS-C size (approx 23x15mm) sensor just almost precisely like all the other cameras talked about above (D70, D50, 30D, 300D, 350D, 20D) ... except the Canon 5D (a 12.8-MPixel) and perhaps the Canon 12 MPixel camera you referred to above (perhaps a Canon 1Ds?), both of which has full 35mm sensors - 35.8x23.8mm. The size of sensor has no impact, however on the file size. Compact cameras can have much smaller sensors - say 7x5mm or smaller and still produce similar file sizes. There are consequences - sure, but not necessarily all bad.

The size of the file produced is dependent, however, on a lot of other things - mostly how the camera is set up.

For most people, the largest file size on a 12-MPixel camera is likely to be much more image informatin than they will ever need, so they just go with a reasonable JPEG compression and can easily create 2-MB files that are more than they need and thus put 400 odd, on a 1-GB CD.

Sure - professionals like you or I might want to use RAW file formats, but for most people, it is the equivalent of using a Pro-lab for their film developing.

I fit about 90 RAW files on a 1-GByte card. This is - for a 12.8MPixel Canon camera is the same amount of information that I would get from a 12.8MPixel Nikon NEFF file. If you are storing RAW+JPEG, this will reduce the number of files you can store.

So, your mate with his "whizz bang Canon" could readily have configured his camera to produce bigger files than your D200 - D200 is a no lessa camera than it's Canon equivalents, in my experience, and I've used both a lot.

Allmost all image formats have compression - some compression is "loss-less" and some is lossy, or even more lossy ... depending on how you are going to use an image, this may or may not be important to you.

I hope that helps,
Andrew who educates professionals transitioning to digital, especially helping them differentiate myth from reality.
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FollowupID: 438654

Follow Up By: extfilm - Friday, Jul 07, 2006 at 18:56

Friday, Jul 07, 2006 at 18:56
Thanks Andrew...... Clears up a couple of things about digi pics in regards to senosr size and stuff..... As I am still a dedicated film guy I really have had little interest in the technical side of digital except it can produce the results that are needed for clients at a much cheaper cost to me.
What I still do not understand is that this other photographer was shooting for publication up to the size of posters........ I am unsure as to how a small file and I can only estimate that the images were 1.8 meg. How can you get the quality required from that sort of file????? Is it a case that the compression is that good?
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Friday, Jul 07, 2006 at 19:55

Friday, Jul 07, 2006 at 19:55
Hi there extfilm,

Every client's expectations are different.

To say something is going to be used as posters doesn't mean that it need necessarily be any higher resolution - his 12-MPixel camera has lots of that anyway, and any noise or compression artifacts are unlikely to be seen by most - or should I say except the most discerning and knowledgeable photo editor.

For me, I would (even if the client didn't know this is what they should expect) - as I see it for professional results - shoot in raw, edit 16-bit file (on a calibrated system), sharpen for final output, and submit to printer a colour-managed file with a profile to match the output expected.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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FollowupID: 438743

Follow Up By: robak (QLD) - Monday, Jul 10, 2006 at 12:12

Monday, Jul 10, 2006 at 12:12
Extfilm,

Thanks for your post. The Analog vs Digital debate is not only restricted to photography. It also went through my profesion some time ago as well as most others. There's certainly different art to taking an anolog shot, after all you have over 100 years of photography knowledge behind you.

Digital attempts to mimick the properties of analog but it is in some ways without the physical boundaries that can be pushed or exploited. but having said that, there are other possibilites in digital that are perhaps still wainting to be explored.

I'm planning on keeping my analog SLR after I get the digital, so I guess I'll just buy a NIKON digital so all the lenses are interchangeable. How much I'll use my analog from now on? I'll just have to wait and see.

Cheers

R.
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FollowupID: 439112

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