Toyota treats customers with contempt yet again

Submitted: Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 22:44
ThreadID: 43708 Views:3443 Replies:14 FollowUps:44
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The 200 series will be considerably more expensive than the 100 series, so if you can't afford one of those, we can let you have one of these wagons instead BUT YOU CAN'T EVEN GET AN AIR BAG.

Sheesh - this is 2007. $50,000+ for a vehicle and the lack of even an optional airbag or ABS - shows complete contempt for human life. What makee it worse is people will buy them because they have no regard for their own life or their employees' lives (many will be driven by employees.)

Every car on the market from $12990 has them - they aren't that costly.

Oh what a feeling - there goes my face onto the wheel hub ........
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Reply By: Member - Tim - Stratford (VIC) - Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 22:54

Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 22:54
Gerhardp1,

Toyota may have counted on your comment, "...people will buy them because they have no regard for their own life or their employees' lives...", but I think Toyota may have made a mistake in underestimating OH&S.

My work have stopped using the 105 Toyotas due to no ABS - we now use mostly Patrols (don't know what they'll do when the 4.2 T/Ds aren't available).

Someone else on here mentioned that some mines were going to Hiluxs due to OH&S in that the L'cruiser Utes didn't have ABS/Airbags...

As I said, Toyota may have underestimated OH&S.

It's a pity that the ADR's aren't as strict for commercial vehicles as it is for passenger vehicles.
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 23:03

Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 23:03
I completely agree - I am probably guilty of a little Toyota bashing here, but I really do feel that it shows corporate contempt to re-develop and upgrade a vehicle and leave out such basic OH&S requirements.

Even Ford has a cheap upgrade available for the new Ranger which adds OH&S compliant bits. They should be standard non-delete items but at least they are available.

Pity our governments are too busy counting taxes and slinging mud - they could veto this type of product easily. After all, dangerous toys are removed from shelves if they can harm our kids but our adults are open slather.
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Follow Up By: Member - Nick (TAS) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 07:44

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 07:44
Ive got a 105 Cruiser and its got ABS.Its a GXL ,maybe the std model dosnt have it.
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Follow Up By: Member - Tim - Stratford (VIC) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:59

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:59
Nick,

Yep, the 105 GXL has ABS - the 'real' poverty pack doesn't (cheap employer!!!)
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Follow Up By: GerryP - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:18

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:18
My 105 GXL also has dual air bags as well as ABS...

Gerry
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 23:01

Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 23:01
Airbags are pretty useful.

But I think the next person who is saved by ABS might be the first. Leave it off 4wds.
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 23:05

Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 23:05
That's true Phil, but a switch is pretty cheap. On many cars you can turn off traction control and other things, so the ability to turn off ABS when the driver doesn't want it is a no-brainer.
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Follow Up By: F4Phantom - Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 23:44

Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 23:44
I am a little confused, obviously on road ABS is one of the best crash avoiding inventions ever put in a car, starting with the mighty jensen interceptor (had disks too) and off road I understand if you dont want ABS. So I gather you think all cars should have ABS but 4x4's should have a switch?
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 23:52

Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 at 23:52
My vote is for ABS on all vehicles.

For those vehicles where the ABS isn't perhaps tuned to perfection on gravel, there could be a switch to turn it off in the same way some vehicles have traction control which can be turned off.

Even if there's no switch, those who think their ability to manually brake is superior to ABS will pull the ABS fuse anyway. I know of some who pull the airbag fuses as well, but you can't help some people.......
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Follow Up By: pt_nomad - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 07:02

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 07:02
I think ABS is a good thing on petrol auto's. The down hill compression braking ability is not that good and you have to use the brakes a bit. In this case ABS is quite helpfull in preventing from wheels locking up when you have to stand on the pedal.
Paul.
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Follow Up By: Pajman Pete (SA) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 07:41

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 07:41
My work crummydore is the first vehicle with ABS I have driven on a regular basis. It is fine on the blacktop but I find the ABS scary on dirt roads, especially on corrugations when the brakes are off more than on.

Pete
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Follow Up By: DIO - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:58

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:58
Phil, they say a good tradesman never blames his tools if he makes a mistake. Same applies to driving a motor vehicle, why not consider modifying your driving style when off road. ie. drive within the limits of yourself and your vehicle. Might save you a bit of stress and worry about your ABS
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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:29

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:29
IMO ABS is highly overrated. How many people have actually experienced it and would understand how it works in a real "panic" situaation.

I would suspect the first thing the majority of people would do when the ABS system kicks in & out & in, is to take their foot off the brake pedal.

A much more valuable investment can be had by a one day Driver Safety course.
The Instructor will teach you how to apply the brake just enough so that it doesn't lock up. This is the quickest way to stop, whether on bitumen, or dirt and because the brakes don't lock, you can still steer around trouble if necessary.
If you have an ABS equipped vehicle, they will show you what to do when that bucking, pulsating feeling kicks in. (ignore it)
It's been many years since I've participated in such a course, but I still remember and can deliver, all the techniques I learnt that day.
And it's actually a great day's entertainment too, seeing the cockiness evaporate from some drivers at the start of the day, only to be replaced by confidence by day's end.

ABS is all but useless on a loose surface too.
Bill


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Follow Up By: Member - Robert A (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:52

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:52
Our L/C has ABS and I find it NO use at all in the bush. It is only the 3rd car I have owned with ABS and I still don't like it.
In my younger years I had a A9X Torana and a lot of other fast cars, No ABS but with the right brake control you could pull it up on a dime. All come down to car control.
A lot of people learn to drive once they get a license. But coming from a small town you learn to drive at a young age in cane bombs. Then if you lucky you can get into Stock car and go cart racing. Neither of which have ABS.

Rob
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Follow Up By: F4Phantom - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:10

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:10
Sand Man (SA), if you think you can do a better job than abs I doubt you actually understand how they work yourself, these things operate so quickly that there is no way in hell you could do 100th of what abs will do, and as for having a good enough feel for knowing when the car is going to lock? maybe some people can drive better than others but again, this is not going to come close to the amount of stopping power abs will deliver.
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Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:27

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:27
F4Phantom,
You obviously haven't driven a vehicle with a below average ABS system. Scary stuff! Yep I have and yep I reckon I could've pulled the car up waaaay quicker without it's help!

Cheers
Scoey
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Follow Up By: F4Phantom - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:57

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:57
I have only owned 2x abs cars, 5 series bmw and wrx. the bm has a bosh system and did actually save me one time from a real mess, the wrx also saved me wrx from a much smaller accident but it worked well. I think both cars have very good brakes but the bm probably has less fade. I have not driven a korean car with abs so cant tell but I take your word that some systems are inferior.
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Follow Up By: Pajman Pete (SA) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 11:25

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 11:25
In my opinion ABS on a loose gravel surface is worse than useless. With a standard system you can lock up the wheels and plough through to the solid base. Even if there is no solid base the rapid build up of a wedge of material in front of the wheels assists stopping. The crummydoor ABS just keeps kicking in and out as soon as the wheels stop rotating.

After a fright on the back road to Mount Barker in my work crummydoor, I went and had a little play with the crummydoor and the Paj on a gravel road near home. I could easily haul the Heritage Listed Paj up to a stop in half the distance of the lighter and 16 years younger crummydore with ABS.

But on the black top or slippery black top I would choose ABS over standard brakes any day.

I think Gerhardp1's suggestion of a switch is the way to go, but it is probably illegal.

Pete
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Follow Up By: F4Phantom - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 12:37

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 12:37
your dead right on gravel but thats it. so how many people per capita drive on gravel a lot? A switch cant be done, who would sue who. So I think the technology is not good enough, cars should stop the best given any road surface, and not just built to assume they are on nice new blacktop.
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Follow Up By: Patrol22 - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 12:56

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 12:56
Hey pt_nomad - is it also the ABS that allows you to travel so slowly up hill:-)
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Follow Up By: hoyks - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 16:20

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 16:20
They have switches on the BMW off road type motor bikes, so why not cars?

Generally, you have to do some finger gymnastics to turn the ABS off and it re-sets (default setting in ABS ON) as soon as you turn the ignition off.

They also have a light on the dash to tell you ABS if OFF, so it is do-able
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Reply By: Hairy - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 00:38

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 00:38
I feel left out...Ive never owned a car with air bags!
Im sure they are probably a good thing but I wouldnt have thought they should be compulsory?
Cheers
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Reply By: equinox - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 00:47

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 00:47
If there is going to be only a limited run of the wagon, then they are likely to become collectors items.

Looking for adventure.
In whatever comes our way.



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Follow Up By: StephenF10 - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:51

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:51
Yeah - alongside the P76.
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Reply By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 00:50

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 00:50
If you don't like it don't buy it!!!

You're free to do as you please in this world and that includes keeping you $$$ in you pocket.

No point in whinging on here about it.
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Follow Up By: Gramps (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:05

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:05
LOL some common sense at last. Same as most things whinged about on here, if you don't like it, don't go, don't buy it. don't listen, don't watch, etc etc etc. How hard is it ???????
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:15

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:15
It seems to be very hard Al.
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Follow Up By: Leroy - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:18

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:18
maybe it's not a whinge but dissapointment at waiting for a new vehicle and it not having the options that one expects in this day and age to be std.

Leroy
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Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:49

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:49
Maybe people expect too much these days. Next time I go buy a meat pie I might have a bit of a whinge coz damn it - it's 2007 and for $2.40 I expect some meat in my pie!

Seriously, if it will do what you want it to and you're willing to pay the price for it then buy it. If not - don't buy it! Just quit the whinging!

Just because a car manufacturer has made a vehicle that you don't like for one reaosn or another, I think you've got to be full of yourself to say they have shown "contempt" at us! Get real!

Oh btw, sorry Leroy - not directed at you personally, but at the whingers as a whole! No offence mate! :-)

Cheers
Scoey!
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Follow Up By: Patrol22 - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 13:00

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 13:00
To be fair John and while it often sounds like a lot of whining - there is some good stuff that comes out during these debates. It's just that some people can't help taking a negative viewpoint without contributing to the real issues.
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Reply By: Rock Ape - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 06:45

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 06:45
You know the good thing about this, is nobody is telling you what to buy or do.

If Toyota don't put them in and you want them go buy another brand, that will make you feel more secure.

I see governments mentioned in regard to the compulsory fitting of air bags. Well maybe this is the same attitude that is closing a lot of tracks.
Guess what, no tracks, all bitumin. There you go no need for a 4wd, so we can all have airbags. Problem solved.

Well problem nearly solved, but no one has adressed the accidents in the first place.

Well have a good one and if you can't do that, tough luck

The Ape
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Reply By: Member - Nick (TAS) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 07:47

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 07:47
Thought I read somewhere that the second batch/run coming out later in the year will have airbags.At the time they were being bagged out for not having them in the first ones avaliable.
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:14

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:14
Yeah Nick thats what I remember hearing also.

Said words to that effect on here a day or so ago on another thread and was told that its impossible due to chassis issues?????
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Reply By: Member No 1- Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 07:55

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 07:55
and no bloody auto....so much for OH&S again...my arm would get RSI
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Reply By: Redback - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:11

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:11
I wouldn't be without ABS or TC in my 4B on or off road, the ability to be able to brake and turn to avoid to me is brilliant and would not have it any other way.

People who are scared of ABS on gravel roads and would turn it off, don't know how to drive with it properly.

Seems i remember all this hoohaa about compulsury seatbelts too all those years ago!!!!!!!!!

Baz.
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:52

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:52
Baz, I remember the hoohaa too!
The difference with seatbelts was that they actually saved lives - the road toll fell dramatically. In the end, nobody could argue with stats.

The stats I've heard about on ABS, now that its been around for a while suggests that no lives have been saved, despite the logic. Maybe they contribute to the odd accident???? Who knows?

The real life crash data is also interesting. 4wds are less likely to be in crashes, and in those crashes, the occupants are less likely to be seriously injured. Maybe some manufacturers perceive that ABS and Airbags are not as vital on big 4wds as they are on smaller sedan cars????

Our other vehicle (Xtrail) has ABS and twin airbags, and I must say the brakes are brilliant, so its not that I'm against ABS, its just I think it complicates a vehicle that gets used mostly in the bush.
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Follow Up By: F4Phantom - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:19

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:19
you are the second person to say ABS has not saved a life, are you joking or is this a real stat. I would say ABS would have avoided countless accidents which never happened so how do you report that? I have avoided a bingle in the wet with ABS where the car steered away from the back of the other car, without ABS it would have been an easy hit, but I never reported it. How did this idea that ABS has not saved a life come about??
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Follow Up By: Pavo - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:32

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:32
Phil, not talking about ABS here coz I agree with everything you've said above.

But with regards to seatbelts and airbags. I'm too young to remember seat belts being introducted, but I imagine they were just made compulsory at some point so the take up rate and wearing rate would have jumped quite quickly?

If airbags had a sudden introduction - let's say curtain, passenger and driver's airbags all were introduced on 90% of cars quite quickly, I'm sure we would have seen a similar decline in deaths/massive injuries. But airbags arte very expensive and require a massive engineering spend.

Pete
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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 17:01

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 17:01
Phantom,

But mate, ABS only does what you can do yourself manually, in any car.

For those Auto gearbox drivers (and I'm one of them) the technique of left foot braking and not locking up the wheels will get you out of more trouble than all other methods. Guaranteed. (But don't take my word for it, do the driving course)

I first adopted left foot braking racing Karts eons ago and the "habit" is still with me today.
Bill


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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 17:11

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 17:11
F4Phantom,
Re ABS - theres been no solid data to show any benefit from ABS in real-life crash prevention, or preventing death or serious injury.
ABS is really a solution to a problem that rarely exists. The common causes of death and serious injury are well known - alcohol, drugs, fatigue, speed, novice drivers, young males, road black spots, driveway deaths, cyclists/pedestrians etc etc etc
So in the scheme of things, preventing a skid and being able to carefully drive around an object instead of hitting it is pie in the sky.
Front SRS airbags do prevent injury - and note the SRS refers to "Supplementary" which means that its an aid to seat belts, crumple zones etc
Sorry I can't put my hands on references at present, but I think I've printed off some of the stuff at home.

Pete, I agree, and in particular, I would like to see airbags compulsory on all vehicles. Its only the ABS I have doubts about.
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Follow Up By: Middle Jeff - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 21:55

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 21:55
Hi all

Our road car has ABS and break assist, best fun I have ever had, drive flat out into a corner back to 2nd and hit the break pedal as hard as you can and as fast as you can, with the break assist on you can tack your foot off the pedal and the breaks stay on until you hit the throttle and you can steer into the corner. my wife could not work out why the hazard lights kept coming on until she worked out I was having too much fun and put an end to it.

Have fun

Craig
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Reply By: Member Boroma 604 - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:58

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:58
Maybe they are going to be called a "BRUISER" instead of a Cruiser when the new models come, No Soft Landing ???.Cheers Boroma 604.
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Reply By: V8Diesel - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:44

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:44
I vote for an extra turbo and drink holders.
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Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:56

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:56
Here Here! :-) On the topic of drink holders I think Toyota have again shown contempt towards its customers by not including a variety of cup holder sizes! Unbelievable! LOL!

Finally somes sense in the arguement! ;-)

Cheers
Scoey!
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Nullagine) - Friday, Mar 30, 2007 at 12:01

Friday, Mar 30, 2007 at 12:01
Jam the drink holders. In both my missus hilux and work tritons I bang it when changing gerars. Oh hang on i guess youse want autos as well.
If you cant hold your beer between your legs without getting your pants wet you shouldnt be drink driving
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Follow Up By: V8Diesel - Friday, Mar 30, 2007 at 16:37

Friday, Mar 30, 2007 at 16:37
Don't know about you Croweaters, but I'd prefer to bang the missus rather than bang the drink holders.......each to his own though.

They're not for West End's sunshine, drink holders are for the 600ml orange juice bottle with a 4" length of garden hose through the guts and the M.B., scissors, lighter etc on the other.

pfffftttttt.......it's not an auto, it's a powershift mate. Just like on a Caterpillar. But you SA'ers wouldn't know about those seeing as you're all so busy flouncing around vineyards in your painter's smocks and berets talking about churches.
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Reply By: ross - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 11:42

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 11:42
Where does it say the 200 series will not have airbags? It only says the 7* series wont have them.

Toyota has already released a statement saying that due the chassis construction of the 7* series they cannot fit airbags.
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 11:47

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 11:47
The 200 series will be considerably more expensive than the 100 series, so if you can't afford one of those, we can let you have one of these wagons instead BUT YOU CAN'T EVEN GET AN AIR BAG.

Try reading. I didn't say the 200 won't have air bags.
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Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 13:05

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 13:05
So it's Toyotas fault you can't afford one?
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 13:30

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 13:30
What sort of stupid comment is that?

What I can afford is unknown to you and not relevant to the thread.
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Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 14:01

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 14:01
Just the impression I get.

I just don't get where your whinge is coming from. You can fork out for the 200 Series with all the fruit or you can choose not to fork out. If you choose the latter, then you've compromised on price and therfore inclusions. Your choice. You can only blame yourself for the choice you make.

If you're one of those people who would drive a Tojo if it weren't for the price then again it's your choice and not Toyota's fault.

And lastly if someone can't afford one (as the example in your original post is clear on) then get over it. I'd love a Ferrari but you don't here me whinging about how the VE Commodore doesn't have a V12 engine - it's 2007 for crying out loud!

LIke I said in a reply above... Seriously, if it will do what you want it to and you're willing to pay the price for it then buy it. If not - don't buy it! Just quit the whinging!

Cheers
Scoey!
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 16:11

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 16:11
Stick around - the Commodore may have a v12 soon - GM aust is working on the engine right now....I personally can't imagine why the Cadillac needs a v12 when the V6 diesel it will have makes 180kw and 550nm torque. Perhaps they should weld two of those together - but I digress.

Now as for whinging, there's a difference between that and discussion which allows people to form/change opinions. If that dude hadn't made the "Supersize Me" movie which you can class as whinging about McDonalds, that corporate giant would still be flogging a whole menu of crap food instead of only half a menu of crap.

Where a giant corporate arrogantly disregards the wellbeing of its customers, they should be taken to task just as McDonalds was.

Leaving out airbags EVEN AS AN OPTION in 2007 is arrogant. Leaving out with an option to buy is fine - that way people can disrespect themselves to their heart's content.

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Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 16:31

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 16:31
I agree, there's a fine line between a whinge and a discussion sometimes.

I also think that the degree of responsibility placed upon the big corporations when it comes to protecting people from themselves is way out of control. People should take responsibility for the choices they make; be it the food they eat or whether thier car has airbags or not.

The airbag is still optional - if you (not you personally but people in general) need an airbag so badly then go buy a truck that has one.

We'll obviously have to agree to disagree! ;-)

Cheers
Scoey!
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Reply By: V8Diesel - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 11:42

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 11:42
.......and don't forget the gun rack and fold down windscreen.
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Follow Up By: Rock Ape - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 13:37

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 13:37
Hey you forgot the Darwin stubby holder
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Reply By: Member - Steve T (NT) - Friday, Mar 30, 2007 at 10:24

Friday, Mar 30, 2007 at 10:24
Just talking to the old man currently in Townsville, doing the grey nomad thing.

They have a June 06 RV Landcruiser Ute, telecom style canopy all colour coded central locking and all the Arb gear you can think off, on road about $78000.

Well its done to date 9000 km, as dad went past the local Toyota dealer he decided to have a look at the new v8, he was talking to the sales man and found out the cab chassis is $61000, and if he wanted to trade it it would be a $18000 change over.

Thats a $36000 loss in 9 months, without any extras, just so as you now dad didn't ask for a trade in price and the sales man just glanced at dads truck.

The Toyota dealership were dad got the truck, told dad if he took his truck back in three years with less than 150000km he would a good trade deal.

Dads seen the new truck and says he will keep the one his got, he is not impressed with the new one.

Cheers Steve.
AnswerID: 230605

Follow Up By: GoneTroppo Member (FNQ) - Friday, Mar 30, 2007 at 10:42

Friday, Mar 30, 2007 at 10:42
Bugger.... there goes another urban myth.

This is the one where Toyotas have the best resale value on the planet.
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Nullagine) - Friday, Mar 30, 2007 at 12:07

Friday, Mar 30, 2007 at 12:07
LOL would you really expect the UCS to offer you a good deal straight up - they have to try it on to see if you are stupid.
I looked at a POS Nissan 720 some years back while they took my 5 year old camry for a drive. Fair dinkum it would have been lucky to be worth 5 grand but the salesman loked me straight in the eye and offered to get me into the 720 for 5 grand. Ok i thought - Nuh that was me pay him 5 grand
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